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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Dark Talon shall not be nerfed
trimsic_ESO
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This title may look as a provocation, I know. But before you over react, please consider the following suggestion.
1) Greatly reduce the cost of a dodge.
2) Grant an X seconds immunity to snare and root effects after a dodge.
Rationale:
Taken alone, Dark Talon is not an over powered skill. It does not deal a lot of damage, and the root duration is quite short. However, during these 4 seconds where you are immobilized, your enemies have the time to trigger a powerful synergy, and chain cast Pulsar until you are dead.
If you could double-dodge quickly out of the zone of control of Dark Talon, without eating most of your stamina bar, and if you were granted an immunity to root effects for a short period of time, then you could remain alive and use your stamina bar for dealing damage (melee classes using physical weapons), or use your stamina bar for another defensive skill.
The main issue I can see in the game at this moment, is once the enemy has managed to trap you in Dark Talon, then there is no way to escape. You are just dead.
You can also trap your enemies in Dark Talon too at the same time. But then the fight is not interesting: it's a pulsar vs pulsar combat, and the team who has the most number of people with pulsar wins.
One last remark: the ability to use a double dodge very quickly is a matter of game play, i.e. how fast one can react to a CC situation. The ability to trap enemies in Dark Talon with no way for them to escape and use Pulsar is a matter of simple zerg (no game play).
1) Greatly reduce the cost of a dodge.
2) Grant an X seconds immunity to snare and root effects after a dodge.
Rationale:
Taken alone, Dark Talon is not an over powered skill. It does not deal a lot of damage, and the root duration is quite short. However, during these 4 seconds where you are immobilized, your enemies have the time to trigger a powerful synergy, and chain cast Pulsar until you are dead.
If you could double-dodge quickly out of the zone of control of Dark Talon, without eating most of your stamina bar, and if you were granted an immunity to root effects for a short period of time, then you could remain alive and use your stamina bar for dealing damage (melee classes using physical weapons), or use your stamina bar for another defensive skill.
The main issue I can see in the game at this moment, is once the enemy has managed to trap you in Dark Talon, then there is no way to escape. You are just dead.
You can also trap your enemies in Dark Talon too at the same time. But then the fight is not interesting: it's a pulsar vs pulsar combat, and the team who has the most number of people with pulsar wins.
One last remark: the ability to use a double dodge very quickly is a matter of game play, i.e. how fast one can react to a CC situation. The ability to trap enemies in Dark Talon with no way for them to escape and use Pulsar is a matter of simple zerg (no game play).
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Andy22✭✭✭Stupid question, this is from a PvP perspective right? So is dark talon not affected by Immovable?
I did not pvp a lot, but given the amounts of snares and roots i always had Immovable slotted and tried to only use magicka based skills, so i could keep it up most of the time.0 -
i agree with op seems to solve it right now DT is to powerful in pvp, coming from a dk:s perspective.0
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By default dodge is meant to be costly that's why crowd controls are dangerousOne bow to darken the sun
One bow to unite the clans
One bow to conquer the world and in darkness drown it...
- Prophecy of the tyranny of the sun0 -
trimsic_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »By default dodge is meant to be costly that's why crowd controls are dangerous
For the sake of a dynamic combat, dodge shall be cheap: you're immobilized, you dodge; you're immobilized again, you dodge again. Or an immunity to snare and immobilize effects shall be granted after a dodge.
By the way, costly dodges are obviously designed to the detriment of physical melee classes. What is the rationale?
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While I think Dark Talons deserves a nerf, a huge part of the problem is the cost of dodge rolling and the lack of immunity after removing a root. Basically rendering it impossible to ever escape from a DK as they just continually re-root you without any form of DR or immunity.0
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Syndy✭✭✭Stupid question, this is from a PvP perspective right? So is dark talon not affected by Immovable?
I did not pvp a lot, but given the amounts of snares and roots i always had Immovable slotted and tried to only use magicka based skills, so i could keep it up most of the time.
No, Immovable does not work against roots or snares.
Syndy - VR14 Breton Templar
Sacrilege
Daggerfall Covenant
Warhammer
Syndia - 100 Zealot, Syndai - 99 Black Guard, Cyndrana - 84 Sorceress2 -
frwinters_ESO✭✭✭✭Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people. That ability is so broken. If anything it should affect 1 person and thats it.0 -
KoooZ✭✭frwinters_ESO wrote: »Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people.
Link please0 -
Jadakin✭✭✭frwinters_ESO wrote: »Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people.
Link please
It's from the reddit AMA Konkle acknowledged that it's bugged and affecting too many people.0 -
zazamalek✭✭✭Bit of necromancy here. OP I am in agreement that dark talons is not the problem.trimsic_ESO wrote: »1) Greatly reduce the cost of a dodge.
2) Grant an X seconds immunity to snare and root effects after a dodge.
Agreed. Why not combine the two?
Breaking a root with a dodge roll: halves the cost of dodge breaking a root for the next 5 seconds. Stacks multiplicatively up to 4 times (3% cost).4100 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭trimsic_ESO wrote: »
1) Greatly reduce the cost of a dodge.
2) Grant an X seconds immunity to snare and root effects after a dodge.
I'm a DK and I absolutely agree that talon spam + X is broken.
I think number 2 is the safest way to go (Against players only). Lowering the dodge cost may trivialize all CC for the sake of broken talons.
(volcanic rune will stop the talon spam and knock the DK on his butt while doing the same amount of damage as talons. It will free your whole group. It's not ideal but it will help until they fix it. Retreating maneuver works too but it's cost removes it from being any typical solution.)Edited by Armitas on May 13, 2014 4:24PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭frwinters_ESO wrote: »Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people. That ability is so broken. If anything it should affect 1 person and thats it.
That would make it borderline useless in pve.
Part of my "gtfo so I can heal" scheme.1 -
IceDread✭✭✭Lots of skills used right are op, does not even take much to use it right. Like mage teleport.0 -
Artemiisia✭✭✭✭✭
✭frwinters_ESO wrote: »Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people. That ability is so broken. If anything it should affect 1 person and thats it.
That would make it borderline useless in pve.
Part of my "gtfo so I can heal" scheme.
and nerfing the bat swam/mist like they did, didnt make that useless in pve either?....
Im happy that I never used bat swam and mist, so no effect from me, just sad to hear all the other pvE players thats hurting from it, just because the pvp comminuty is the loudess of them all
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Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
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whick will make it useless in pve. One of two ways dk's control the largee trash pulls in vr dungeons.they do this might as well abondon the game mechanics altogether remove active targeting. Because half the pulls in dungeons will wipe all you pvp whiners everytime for hours on end. Simply wont work. By the way its not the dk killing you its his allies . Bolt escape is way way more of an issue then dk's spamming an ability that costs 1/4 of their magicafrwinters_ESO wrote: »Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the kdevelopers notes stating it affects to many people. hat ability is so broken. If anything it should affect 1 person and thats it.
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Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
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it is useless in pve mist is a joke and every classes ult is better then bat swarm except the NB. They should reduce the fire damage vamp is near useless in pve now and pveArtemiisia wrote: »frwinters_ESO wrote: »Dark Talons is already being looked at as per the developers notes stating it affects to many people. That ability is so broken. If anything it should affect 1 person and thats it.
That would make it borderline useless in pve.
Part of my "gtfo so I can heal" scheme.
and nerfing the bat swam/mist like they did, didnt make that useless in pve either?....
Im happy that I never used bat swam and mist, so no effect from me, just sad to hear all the other pvE players thats hurting from it, just because the pvp comminuty is the loudess of them all
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If dodge gave immunity to snares/roots talons would be fine I think. Would also give medium armour a bit of a buff. Lowering cost of dodge isn't a great idea in my opinion, I can already dodge roll 6-8 times in a row if I want, making it the new bolt escape isn't the way to go.
Banner still needs to be looked at, or rather and in the same vein - stacking the same type of static AoE effects needs to be looked at. Veil of blades (the NB ult) is pretty op too if you stack it and there's probably lots of other effects to stack people aren't using because they're not quite as good as the current front runners. Better to fix the core problem first.0 -
Travail✭✭✭I agree with the OP. Talons wouldn't feel overpowered at all if we had some way to gain immunity to roots (that didn't cost over half your stamina bar to use, like Rapid Maneuver does.) Personally, I think roots should just be counted as hard CC, so we could break out of them, and gain immunity through abilities like Immovable.
-Travail.www.obsidianbrotherhood.com0 -
scy22b14_ESO✭✭✭Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.0 -
Travail✭✭✭scy22b14_ESO wrote: »Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.
Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)
If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.
The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc
On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.
-Travail.www.obsidianbrotherhood.com0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
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its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced abilityscy22b14_ESO wrote: »Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.
Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)
If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.
The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc
On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.
-Travail.
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Travail✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced abilityscy22b14_ESO wrote: »Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.
Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)
If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.
The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc
On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.
-Travail.
Where did you hear 3 max targets? I heard it would no longer be unlimited, but most AoE's have a max of 6 targets. I assumed Talons would follow that trend.
-Travail.www.obsidianbrotherhood.com0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
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Changes in Craglorn Trav maximum 3 targetsWifeaggro13 wrote: »
its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced abilityscy22b14_ESO wrote: »Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.
Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)
If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.
The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc
On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.
-Travail.
Where did you hear 3 max targets? I heard it would no longer be unlimited, but most AoE's have a max of 6 targets. I assumed Talons would follow that trend.
-Travail.
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scy22b14_ESO✭✭✭Again. No need to change talons at all. Radius, damage, magicka, leave it. Simply add the 7 second CC immunity to dodge rolling. Why go out of your way to change the skill when there's a simple fix?0
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Travail✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
Changes in Craglorn Trav maximum 3 targetsWifeaggro13 wrote: »
its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced abilityscy22b14_ESO wrote: »Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.
Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)
If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.
The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc
On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.
-Travail.
Where did you hear 3 max targets? I heard it would no longer be unlimited, but most AoE's have a max of 6 targets. I assumed Talons would follow that trend.
-Travail.
Yikes. If it stays that way, it's clear to me the devs don't know what the hell they are doing. That's a failure to identify what the true problem of Talons is, which was never about the number of targets you could hit. The problem is with how difficult it is to get out of the ability once you are in it, and that's due to A) the large radius, and B ) the fact DK's can spam the attack.
I guess when they promise stupid things like, "No cooldowns," this is how they have to go about balancing everything. I suspect most DK's would have preferred a reduction in the radius, while keeping unlimited targets. Not sure who will want to use this over Volcanic Rune, now.
-Travail.Edited by Travail on May 15, 2014 12:47PMwww.obsidianbrotherhood.com0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭I'm curious are there any DK's that don't run Dark Talons? I wonder if any other class has any spells that are considered a must for every single build?
I think a good start would be if you have immunity to CC that it should not still CC you.0 -
Napkins✭Maverick827 wrote: »I don't run Dark Talons on my DK. It costs too much Magicka.
I can use DT about 5-6 times in a row and i'm not even running a magicka build. All I use is spell cost reduction on my jewerly and it works wonders.
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NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »
Changes in Craglorn Trav maximum 3 targetsWifeaggro13 wrote: »
its already getting a reduction to 3 maximum no sense in reducing the radius its already a overpriced abilityscy22b14_ESO wrote: »Nobody who has any working knowledge of the game has truly called for a nerf to Dark Talons.
The suggestions you made would solve the issue. Simply adding CC immunity when breaking out of a root/immobilize would be the simple fix.
Reducing the radius to 5 meters instead of 8 might be a positive change. This would mean you would now be able to root only those enemies who were in melee range of you, which is how I feel the skill should have been designed to work in the first place (trapping enemies in melee range with you, and preventing them from running to your allies.)
If you want an easy reference, 5 meters is the radius of Circle of Protection. Blood Altar is 8 meters. You can see that the circle offered by CoP is still quite large for what Talons is used for. It would still be a large enough area to catch multiple enemies inside of it.
The main difference would be that a single dodge roll would move a player outside of the range of Talons, which is a needed change in PvP. Also, this would mean that DK's couldn't spam Talons in order to keep enemies from entering melee range (which is how we get videos like this):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc
On a side note, I feel Inhale could use a reduction in radius down to 5 meters as well. Kind of off-topic, but you see the guy in the video combining these two skills to trap melee enemies outside of melee range, and use those helpless NPCs to heal himself through the boss damage with Inhale. I'm guessing this isn't how the devs envisioned a DK going about using their Draconic Power skill line. I think they wanted the DK to be in melee range in order to make full use of these abilities, not perpetually trapping their enemies just outside of melee range.
-Travail.
Where did you hear 3 max targets? I heard it would no longer be unlimited, but most AoE's have a max of 6 targets. I assumed Talons would follow that trend.
-Travail.
@Wifeaggro13 @Trava
No.
The above video is IN Craglorn. Its hitting more than 3 targets.0