Where is the MMO in ESO

LarZen

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

LarZen wrote: »

The weakest part with ESO is the mmo part. Playing with others or content that encourages or leads others together are non existing or so bad it could be consider broken.

Say what now?

You *can* play with others in practically every part of adventuring. The only bit that *doesn't* allow it is the "Harbourage" quest chain. But that's the only bit.

See the dungeons on the maps with the "+" against them? That means group based content. See the skull on the map? Yep, group based area. Could there be more? Sure, why not? But to say that group content is non existent is a gross exaggeration to the point of being a lie.

But let's play "devils advocate" here:
In your opinion, what should Zenimax do to correct things so that the game is more "MMO" to you?

Problem playing with others is phasing. If you group with others that have progressed past you or vice versa you cant see what the other group members sees. You cant go help kill a boss or assist because you cant see anything.

Public dungeons are filled with players so there are 0% challenge. Immersion is also 0%. The bosses are dumb and you can do the entire dungeon alone if you want to. There is no need for any other players to be there...

Skulls however is a challenge but its like putting a mini game inside a game and calling it a mmo. It's to little and to mediocre to be excited about. Same can be said abut the anchors. It's impressive and cool looking but there is no challenge. And no reason or consequence for using time on closing them.

What ZeniMax should do I don't know. But I would look at games like World of Warcraft and GuildWars 2 for inspiration. The best mmorpg games in the industry.

demendred

I waved to another player, and he waved back. That pretty much says MMO right there.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

jimredtalon wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Personally, I don't see any discouragement to grouping. However, I'm not going to belittle what the OP has said, however I must ask if the OP has any suggestions that might remedy the situation as THEY see it.

Are they perhaps looking for a "mentor" and "deleveling" systems where high levelers can join with low levelers and vice versa?
Perhaps a means to halt XP gain when desired?

Whilst such systems and mechanics are often useful in MMO's to promote grouping, they don't define the term MMO. And likewise, the exclusion of such systems doesn't mean that such games *aren't* MMO's.

The simple fact is that the concept of "forced grouping" throughout the experience of an MMO has long since past. It has been left behind with EQ1 and the like. Brad McQuaid tried launched a kickstarter for his new MMO which forced grouping, and it flopped. That should tell you something.

As a side note: I DO think that there could be more "private" dungeons. I'm sick of finding that half of the place has been emptied, or the boss has been killed, the moment I walk through the door. That spoils the experience for me.

This is most likely why I will not be playing this game after my sub ends. I will come back to it though cause I hold out hope that they get things sorted and improve upon the good SP experience. I just think the way phasing and group mechanics work is so ingrained into the games function that it will be a big job for zenimax and they will need time, more time than I am willing to pay a sub and wait, to get it were I would prefer it. Its not unheard of for an MMO to release seeming unfinished, or have features left out for a later date, but I think they left out my favorite part of MMO's out this time for that later date. I was just wishing some one would help me out and let me know if I am just not seeing things right but after many posts from others I think I got it.

The MMO side is there, barely. Its there about like the player market and in game economy is there. Its there but its weak and needs work. So I will wait patiently and quietly and hope to see a change. Thanks for the help.

I keep seeing you say that the MMO side is barely there (or words to that effect). But I gotta ask, what exactly are you expecting?

The group content is there. You can group up any time YOU choose.
Or are you in fact wanting the majority of content throughout the world to be "forced group" content? Because if you are, then you won't find an MMO released in the last 10 years that has done that. Even Brad McQuaid's latest venture failed to gain the interest he wanted. And THAT was touted as a forced group based MMO.

The fact is that there IS group based content. Not forced content, it's optional.
Just because the game doesn't have a mentoring system, doesn't mean it's not an MMO. You just choose to not acknowledge that fact.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

LarZen wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

LarZen wrote: »

The weakest part with ESO is the mmo part. Playing with others or content that encourages or leads others together are non existing or so bad it could be consider broken.

Say what now?

You *can* play with others in practically every part of adventuring. The only bit that *doesn't* allow it is the "Harbourage" quest chain. But that's the only bit.

See the dungeons on the maps with the "+" against them? That means group based content. See the skull on the map? Yep, group based area. Could there be more? Sure, why not? But to say that group content is non existent is a gross exaggeration to the point of being a lie.

But let's play "devils advocate" here:
In your opinion, what should Zenimax do to correct things so that the game is more "MMO" to you?

Problem playing with others is phasing. If you group with others that have progressed past you or vice versa you cant see what the other group members sees. You cant go help kill a boss or assist because you cant see anything.

Public dungeons are filled with players so there are 0% challenge. Immersion is also 0%. The bosses are dumb and you can do the entire dungeon alone if you want to. There is no need for any other players to be there...

Skulls however is a challenge but its like putting a mini game inside a game and calling it a mmo. It's to little and to mediocre to be excited about. Same can be said abut the anchors. It's impressive and cool looking but there is no challenge. And no reason or consequence for using time on closing them.

What ZeniMax should do I don't know. But I would look at games like World of Warcraft and GuildWars 2 for inspiration. The best mmorpg games in the industry.

The phasing thing is a slight bump I agree. But chances are that a player is less likely to want to kill a boss if they haven't actually gotten to that stage of a quest anyhow because by doing so they ruin the experience for themselves.

However, perhaps Zenimax could "tweak" the system so that those who HAVE done a particular stage can in fact group up with those who are doing it? Personally I don't know of a situation in the game where that is required.

As for "public dungeons", I agree that the other players can ruin the extire experience. Especially when a quest requires you to go inside and kill a boss....and someone kills it the moment you enter. So you get the quest markup, without having to do anything. Those public dungeons are a major bugbear for me. There should be more "private" versions in my opinion.

You DO know that there are private group based instances don't you? The skulls aren't just the only group based content.

Btw, don't go quoting GW2 as one of the best. It's combat system proved to the world that the trinity is better than "zerging" a boss. And it's AH system is awful because you don't know who you actually bought from.

Selstad

Well what defines an MMO? WoW should certainly not be called an MMO because all you do is stand in a major city and use automated tools to pair you with others to do things. There aren't that much MMO over WoW then in any case. Yet WoW seems to be praised as the standard all MMOs should strive for. Not that I understand why any more, it's not the same game as it used to be.

ESO is in my views a much better MMO experience than many other MMOs, in terms that it actually feels like a live world with people around you. Like WoW per example, when levelling from 1, if you see a character that's not an NPC you're not certain how to behave. From 1 to 90 it's more or less a single player experience, yet as said, people praise WoW for being a standard in MMOs. Strangely enough.

LarsS

Join a guild and do warfare in cyrodil, it takes hours or days to crown your emperor.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

Selstad wrote: »

Well what defines an MMO? WoW should certainly not be called an MMO because all you do is stand in a major city and use automated tools to pair you with others to do things. There aren't that much MMO over WoW then in any case. Yet WoW seems to be praised as the standard all MMOs should strive for. Not that I understand why any more, it's not the same game as it used to be.

ESO is in my views a much better MMO experience than many other MMOs, in terms that it actually feels like a live world with people around you. Like WoW per example, when levelling from 1, if you see a character that's not an NPC you're not certain how to behave. From 1 to 90 it's more or less a single player experience, yet as said, people praise WoW for being a standard in MMOs. Strangely enough.

I agree with this. When I first played ESO, I felt it was just bland and generic. Then I began noticing the small little things that used to be part of the "staple" MMO formula, but have been eroded away over the past few years: Dynamic day/night cycles, dynamic weather, world boss encounters, crafting where you level up your crafting skills and do the crafting yourself (as opposed to it being a vending machine).

ESO has a lot more going for it than some people acknowledge. The problem is that Zenimax's marketing of ESO's systems and mechanics hasn't been particular brilliant. All they've been doing is making CGI movies which are nothing like the game.

Sylveria_Relden

I think the interpretation of MMO leaves much to be desired for anyone. It's a subjective definition- people play games online with others for varying reasons- period. Anyone who tries to "define" it using their own terms then blanket it so that everyone else fits neatly into their own perspectives is basically looking for disappointment. It's like thinking "world peace" is a possibility- as long as two any people are different from each other there will be conflict. The only thing that truly matters is how such conflict is resolved.

That said, MMO from my standpoint is many others coming together to achieve common goals, whatever they might be. An MMORPG in my opinion, is said MMO with Role Playing Game elements- in which you're able to truly customize character personas based on personal tastes/likes. TESO in my opinion is a little too restrictive to be truly customizable, but I can understand the reasons for why they changed what they did with skill systems and so forth. Providing a framework for lots of other people to play cooperatively in a game is a challenge- and you must give people reason to do so (incentive) which is why they limited the class/skill systems- to incentivize people to play with one another to achieve common goals.

Designing game systems to "force" people to play with one another isn't going to work. It's a flawed idea to begin with- people have freedom to do as they choose IRL, the only thing that matters are circumstances and consequences of actions. All you're going to accomplish in forcing others to play the way you want to is a lot of frustration both for yourself and the people you're trying to do so with. So you have gripes about the game? Design one that does what you want it to do- market it, and see how successful it becomes. Else your opinion counts for just as much as mine does.

Thunder

ESO has the most player interaction of any MMO on the planet, for players that are actually playing the game and not just zerging to cap.

There are world bosses you can actually fight because you don't have to get a group of 40 people together and wait seven hours to fight one.

There are sky anchors.

There are random spawns (the dark cloud spawns).

There are open world dungeons.

There are instanced dungeons.

Even just in general questing, since the PVE in ESO is cooperative, you're constantly interacting with others as you complete your quest objectives.

In wow, and other MMOs based on WoW, you never interact with another player ever while questing during leveling. You see people running around, but it's extremely adversarial PVE. They're there to steal your mob spawns, and you certainly aren't going to stick your neck out to help someone as there's no reward for doing so what so ever. I can't count the number of times I'd get to the end of a quest and there'd be someone fighting the quest boss dude, and I'd join in and help them kill it and they'd just run off and leave me to fend for myself.

Bottom line, ESO isn't WoW. You can't play it like WoW. You can try, but you'll just end up with an extremely hollow experience and come crying to the forums that the game sucks and is boring.

zaria

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

I think the Angry Joe review highlighted some of the current faults and oversights of the PvE grouping experience outside group dungeons.

I hope these issues will be looked at.

Grouping while doing quests has problems with plenty of quests, yes most work but this is still an major issue.

On the other hand grouping during questing does not have many of the benefits it had in WOW. In grouping during questing had an major benefit as lots of quest was kill/ loot/ gather 15 and here you get loot and credit for all kills if in group.
ESO has few of this quests and all who do 10% damage get loot and credit.

Grouping still has benefits then killing slow spawning bosses, this is done but not often enough.

Another problem with ESO is that you has to stop to talk, I like ESO combat but communication during fights is harder than in wow.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

jimredtalon wrote: »

I am struggling to find the MMO in ESO. Most, if not all, MMO's I have played in the past had plenty of parts that made it feel like I was part of a bigger game with lots of people but playing in this game. Let me simplify it, when I play other MMO's I feel like I'm on a bus ride to some epic place with all my friends. ESO feels like I am on a car ride were I pick up a few friends every now and then and give them a short lift while I am on my way some were else. So I ask you where is the MMO in ESO

completely disagree, all MMO's are different, I get different feelings from different ones. Does mean the ones that dont give me that feeling are worse, just different. A game is what you make, with MMO's it is all about the people you meet. The only MMO I felt that was extraordinary was EQ2 which I love so much, (though technically superior to WoW in almost every way) what made it brilliant was the THAT particular community at that particular time. Something I didnt feel again until SWTOR but even then with its great grouping ideas still felt empty because of the people who were with me.

Grouping mechanic is only one part of MMO games that make them work. JUst because you dont see it, or like the way they do things, doesnt mean it isnt there.

Audigy

loops73 wrote: »

awkwarrd wrote: »

You see all those other people..
Right there.

yeah we see them,but doing things with them is another story. ESO really does not encourage grouping that often.

I disagree.

The MMO experience of TESO is a much better one than for instance swtor or wow. At those games people must fight for mobs, chest´s, quest objectives but at TESO you don't need to as you can play along just fine.

I just come out of a dungeon, it was great fun and the open dungeon system is one of the best so far. No more "LFG Tank, Healer, DPS", you can just play with others without the need to look for hours.

I would really like to know which MMO in your opinion offers so much more MMO compared to TESO. I played them all so ya surprise me which one is it?

What ZeniMax should do I don't know. But I would look at games like World of Warcraft and GuildWars 2 for inspiration. The best mmorpg games in the industry.

Oh boy you cant be serious about that.

Wow is not an MMO at all, its an arcade game with dungeons. There are no elite zones, if you quest then everyone in group must do the quest alone as the items don't drop for all (wolf paws, mushrooms, candles) and the endgame is based on premade´s where you have no social aspect´s at all, but a hunt for loot every ID.

If you level from 1-90 and meet another player then you can call yourself lucky. Nobody groups up there while leveling as its a burden due the quest system. why kill 80 wolfs if you only need 30 paws? Right, because not all wolfs have paws and your group members cant loot the paws that you loot. Besides that the mobs are so easy to kill, that a group makes absolutely no sense. Nobody needs a heal, a tank its all about dps.

People like you are a pity, but they do exist. Play a real MMO and learn, instead of praising wow as the holy grail of MMO´s while in reality that game left the MMO genre 5 years ago.

TESO right now is very similar to Vanilla wow. You have many group zones with elite mobs, some world bosses and an open dungeon system. Besides that you have some raids and world pvp or dungeons - its very similar.

With WOTLK wow moved away from the MMO genre, but to explain this to people who have no MMO experience is like learning a butterfly to drive a monster truck.

d0e1ow

Audigy wrote: »

loops73 wrote: »

awkwarrd wrote: »

You see all those other people..
Right there.

yeah we see them,but doing things with them is another story. ESO really does not encourage grouping that often.

I disagree.

The MMO experience of TESO is a much better one than for instance swtor or wow. At those games people must fight for mobs, chest´s, quest objectives but at TESO you don't need to as you can play along just fine.

I just come out of a dungeon, it was great fun and the open dungeon system is one of the best so far. No more "LFG Tank, Healer, DPS", you can just play with others without the need to look for hours.

I would really like to know which MMO in your opinion offers so much more MMO compared to TESO. I played them all so ya surprise me which one is it?

What ZeniMax should do I don't know. But I would look at games like World of Warcraft and GuildWars 2 for inspiration. The best mmorpg games in the industry.

Oh boy you cant be serious about that.

Wow is not an MMO at all, its an arcade game with dungeons. There are no elite zones, if you quest then everyone in group must do the quest alone as the items don't drop for all (wolf paws, mushrooms, candles) and the endgame is based on premade´s where you have no social aspect´s at all, but a hunt for loot every ID.

If you level from 1-90 and meet another player then you can call yourself lucky. Nobody groups up there while leveling as its a burden due the quest system. why kill 80 wolfs if you only need 30 paws? Right, because not all wolfs have paws and your group members cant loot the paws that you loot. Besides that the mobs are so easy to kill, that a group makes absolutely no sense. Nobody needs a heal, a tank its all about dps.

People like you are a pity, but they do exist. Play a real MMO and learn, instead of praising wow as the holy grail of MMO´s while in reality that game left the MMO genre 5 years ago.

TESO right now is very similar to Vanilla wow. You have many group zones with elite mobs, some world bosses and an open dungeon system. Besides that you have some raids and world pvp or dungeons - its very similar.

With WOTLK wow moved away from the MMO genre, but to explain this to people who have no MMO experience is like learning a butterfly to drive a monster truck.

This game is in no way, shape, or form anything like Vanilla WoW. An instanced world where I can't even see the other faction? A world where I get breadcrumbed to each zone with my hand held? A world where I can only really quest in one zone at a time, no real choices? A world where I can instantly teleport around the map with the click of a button? A world where I am forced into some cheesy main storyline and told I'm the world's only hope again and again even though I'm a level 6 wizard with holes in my robes? A game that instances and phases itself rendering my unable to go back and help my boyfriend who plays less than me?

What Vanilla WoW were you playing, cus it wasn't the same Vanilla WoW I played.

People like him are a pity? I think you should take a long look in the mirror if you think this game has added a *** to the genre, because it hasn't. It's not a bad game, but it's not a good MMO. It's a little theme park game that you follow the path in and occasionally pick a lock on an obviously placed chest.

I noticed in your post that you only bashed on current day WoW and avoided talking about Guild Wars 2 entirely. Maybe because you haven't played it. Or maybe because that game is, in pretty much every way imaginable short of lore, superior to ESO. It's still a far cry from what an MMO should be imo, but it has brought a lot more to the table and it's obviously a team with know how. It has actually moved the genre forward.

ESO? It will be a fart in the wind of MMO history. Not bad... not great. Just whatever. Vanilla WoW? Vanilla WoW was one of the greatest games ever made. This game doesn't hold a candle, dude.

Xithian

Honest question. People have started throwing around the term "themepark MMO", which to my understanding basically just means content is tiered by level. You move from one area to the next. I'm confused as to what differentiates this from the leveling process in almost all MMOs. Honestly it seems to apply to most MMOs but only gets thrown around when people want to bash a particular game.

I played WoW from beta (Plainstriding..taken away from Tauren because it was "OP", then years later an IMPROVED version given to friggin Worgen... Blizz is completely schizzo) and the only major differences in leveling are the "main story" and "guild" quest lines (mandatory, in order quests that span all levels) and being limited to one set of zones. I played GW2, 100% completion in all zones. Zero difference from how I'm playing ESO.

Also, even vanilla WoW held your hand when it came to zone progression. Don't pretend it didn't. Most games do. I don't even know why you would think that getting a quest to go to the next area is a bad thing. I also don't know why you think map travel is a bad thing. The main story thing, that's one of those "to each his own" kind of things. I don't see it as game breaking either way.

I haven't been playing with any friends as they were all slow to jump on board, but if phasing is causing problems I will agree with you 100% on that one. I remember when they started doing that crap in WoW and it's one of the things that drove me to finally stop resubbing every now and then.

Willow

There are no M's in ESO, sorry.

Gix

jimredtalon wrote: »

My issue is that unlike all other MMO's before it ESO discourages group play with so many inconveniences and makes it so much easier just to solo everything.

I did 100% zone completion all the way to Shadowfen (currently lvl 28), not once was I ever solo (or felt like I should solo) except when I was trying to fish. Even when fishing, I never felt alone.

This is with guild chat filtered OFF.

I have a really hard time understanding people's issues about TESO not being MMO enough. As as matter of fact, there was this one time where I wished I was alone. There's a quest that require you to click on shrines in a very specific order. It turns out that other players can screw up your shrine order.

Xithian wrote: »

Honest question. People have started throwing around the term "themepark MMO", which to my understanding basically just means content is tiered by level. You move from one area to the next. I'm confused as to what differentiates this from the leveling process in almost all MMOs. Honestly it seems to apply to most MMOs but only gets thrown around when people want to bash a particular game.

While it's true that the mass majority don't really use the term properly, there are actually a lot of MMOs that don't have the themepark design. The thing is, modern MMOs tend to adopt this themepark style.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with themepark. It's being thrown as an insult because it's a design philosophy taken from single-player games which, ironically, is fitting for an Elder Scrolls game.

All content in every MMO is tiered by level. Themepark just lock those by areas. "This entire forest is appropriate for you" kind of way; rather than "You can go anywhere you want but watch out if you decide to go deeper into this cave".

Ultima Online is a prime example of it of non-themepark play.

KerinKor

jimredtalon wrote: »

I am struggling to find the MMO in ESO

It's in the cities where damned Sorcerers have their stupid pets sitting on top of you .. it's in the zones where the bot trains run free .. it's in the dungeons where bot trains slaughter trash and bots bot the bosses.

MM is EVERYWHERE.

I think you need to bare in mind that ESO is an MMORPG .. there are other types of MMO .. and the 'G' doesn't stand for group, I think that's where you're going wrong.

Tamisan

Does your guild PVP? Or do dungeons? There's your MMO. If you only follow the (main) quest lines, you miss everything. Also, this game is not just for MMO players but also for TES series fans. So, ESO attempts to strike a balance between the two.

Trouvo

Been in a group with a leveling partner so far from 1 - VR6, only problem really has been sometimes we both have to pick up a certain thing or interactable each and found if we do it at the same time we both get credit for the same interactable. Other than that we have had no problems, obviously the main story/mages/fighters have to be solo, but otherwise no issues. And you def need a group partner from VR1 onward, at the very least it is highly recommended

RianaTheBosmer

Lazarus_Long wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

LarZen wrote: »

The weakest part with ESO is the mmo part. Playing with others or content that encourages or leads others together are non existing or so bad it could be consider broken.

...The only bit that *doesn't* allow it is the "Harbourage" quest chain. But that's the only bit.

Don't forget the solo parts of the Mage's Guild and the Fighter's Guild stories. I'm not trying to troll you, just saying.

I was about to say that. The mages guild wasn't so bad to solo but there is no way to do Doshia (Fighter's guild) solo at level 8. I for one do not like that I can't help my friends when they need help. I actually think the devs should open all quests for grouping and if you are over level, they should add a notice to say, "you are over the level of this quest, you will not receive XP for it, do you still want to enter" or "You have already completed this quest, do you want to replay it with your group".

GreySix

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

The group content is there. You can group up any time YOU choose.

I'll raise you these three against your claim:

• Main story instances
• Fighters Guild instances
• Mages Guild instances.

You are a no-go at that station.

Tarwin

Think it's a World Skill

Plug a point into it and the MMO portions glow when you get close to them