What is wrong with Veteran content...
South_of_Heaven
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A very basic principle (which is considered very basic for a good reason) has gone wrong here. (Sorry for the long post but...)
Usually, in the higher-end content where difficulty is greater and leveling is slower, the rewards and most importantly the character upgrades, are proportionate to the content.
At the moment, almost every character by 50 is pretty much "completed" (obviously because skill lines are designed to be maxed at around that level, only crafting skills aren't). Characters will have most likely maxed out/morphed all the skills they will want to use and all the extra skill points you get in the new veteran areas aren't nearly as interesting as they were until 50-ish. And thinking that veteran content is approximately 2/3 of the game makes it a serious issue.
During 45-50 I was still looking forward to getting some skills/passives and the quest gold rewards scaled upwards up until then. Now, in veteran content, gold rewards are the same low level rewards of the original areas and the only things left to dump your skill points are very low priority passives, other skills which you don't really need, or leveling the crafting materials you can use.
At the same time, veteran content is considerably more difficult and with a much slower leveling. Don't get me wrong, I love the difficulty and the slow leveling, but my character is too static to keep me entertained through this content. I won't even mention items - they scale blandly and hardly make any difference. I still had my level 16 warlock set equipped until VT rank 2 until I changed it with it's equivalent veteran warlock set, which of course made no particular difference, neither in power (nor in play style obviously).
Imo, don't wait for an expansion to introduce new ways of further character development. As it is now, veteran rank is in desperate need of some. For example, an extra, additional branching/morphing of our skills, with new additional effects feels almost essential to keep one interested through veteran content and keep him going. A change to skill ranks so that they are more significant in effect and develop for longer than 1-50 would also be a good start.
In addition to that it would be great if you added some subtle things to the veteran areas (as for many people, it kills their appetite for alts in another faction) like random events, new meaningful veteran collectibles, maybe a few player invasions or something subtle that would differentiate the gameplay a lot, compared to their original versions.
Finally, this gives me the impression that the game was launched prematurely, having no real character progression and only stale questing for the 2/3 of it's content (veteran content) and I just can't see how this would be intentional, as it doesn't take a seer to see that, once people start going through the veteran content, threads about veteran content will keep popping up, with many people getting bored and even cancelling their subscriptions. My friend list is already "full" of VR1/VR2 players who hardly log in any more. This too, doesn't take a genius to know what that means.
Edited by South_of_Heaven on April 26, 2014 8:48AM Usually, in the higher-end content where difficulty is greater and leveling is slower, the rewards and most importantly the character upgrades, are proportionate to the content.
At the moment, almost every character by 50 is pretty much "completed" (obviously because skill lines are designed to be maxed at around that level, only crafting skills aren't). Characters will have most likely maxed out/morphed all the skills they will want to use and all the extra skill points you get in the new veteran areas aren't nearly as interesting as they were until 50-ish. And thinking that veteran content is approximately 2/3 of the game makes it a serious issue.
During 45-50 I was still looking forward to getting some skills/passives and the quest gold rewards scaled upwards up until then. Now, in veteran content, gold rewards are the same low level rewards of the original areas and the only things left to dump your skill points are very low priority passives, other skills which you don't really need, or leveling the crafting materials you can use.
At the same time, veteran content is considerably more difficult and with a much slower leveling. Don't get me wrong, I love the difficulty and the slow leveling, but my character is too static to keep me entertained through this content. I won't even mention items - they scale blandly and hardly make any difference. I still had my level 16 warlock set equipped until VT rank 2 until I changed it with it's equivalent veteran warlock set, which of course made no particular difference, neither in power (nor in play style obviously).
Imo, don't wait for an expansion to introduce new ways of further character development. As it is now, veteran rank is in desperate need of some. For example, an extra, additional branching/morphing of our skills, with new additional effects feels almost essential to keep one interested through veteran content and keep him going. A change to skill ranks so that they are more significant in effect and develop for longer than 1-50 would also be a good start.
In addition to that it would be great if you added some subtle things to the veteran areas (as for many people, it kills their appetite for alts in another faction) like random events, new meaningful veteran collectibles, maybe a few player invasions or something subtle that would differentiate the gameplay a lot, compared to their original versions.
Finally, this gives me the impression that the game was launched prematurely, having no real character progression and only stale questing for the 2/3 of it's content (veteran content) and I just can't see how this would be intentional, as it doesn't take a seer to see that, once people start going through the veteran content, threads about veteran content will keep popping up, with many people getting bored and even cancelling their subscriptions. My friend list is already "full" of VR1/VR2 players who hardly log in any more. This too, doesn't take a genius to know what that means.
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Nothing, nothing is.|----Cometh' at me bro'eth.--- Aldmeri Dominion NA, Veteran,----|
| -~Bug reporter extraordinaire-~|0 -
Udaku✭✭Veteran zones are emptier and emptier of players as you progress. Yes, it should be more difficult but in the way you said, not in the way like it is now. There is a great potential in the Veteran Ranks, but it is not used and as things further develop they won't be used well. Everything progresses in veteran zone but your character stays almost the same. So lets start giving suggestions how to improve it.
- Add veteran points. After you gain a new rank you get 5 veteran points that you can use as attribute points.Boycott, oppose & unsubscribe!2 -
Minack✭✭✭It's just busy worked dressed up as content. It's shallow and boring. Let me efficiently level up in Cyrodiil.8 -
South_of_Heaven✭✭✭Veteran zones are emptier and emptier of players as you progress. Yes, it should be more difficult but in the way you said, not in the way like it is now. There is a great potential in the Veteran Ranks, but it is not used and as things further develop they won't be used well. Everything progresses in veteran zone but your character stays almost the same. So lets start giving suggestions how to improve it.
- Add veteran points. After you gain a new rank you get 5 veteran points that you can use as attribute points.
I would love to see something that slightly changed our playstyle. Like further branching/morphing of skills. This would make for a more interesting vt playthrough and also differentiate the experience from alt playthroughs.
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kirnmalidus✭✭✭✭I'm enjoying the veteran content, but it is somewhat silly that much of the environment loot and rewards in the VR zones are the low-level loot from the original zones (provisioning mats in particular, I'm finding myself using my recently gathered mats from my first VR zone to make level 5 recipes, which is silly).
My character is also feeling pretty stagnant. I'm trying to level out my second set of skills (dual-wield / melee as backup to my bow skillset), but it seems I'm only getting XP to apply to the skill leveling from quests (not mobs) so it is taking forever to level up skills and active abilities.
The result of this is that my character has changed less in the last five days of Veteran play than it did in the previous five hours before I hit VR. Again, that is somewhat intentional and I get that, but it is also kinda lame and boring. I feel like I need to be trying/learning new stuff/skills to be more competitive at VR, but it just isn't feasible to do so.Life of a Nightblade (Screenshot Tumblr)
“Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.”
- @ruze84b14_ESO3 -
Veteran zones are emptier and emptier of players as you progress. Yes, it should be more difficult but in the way you said, not in the way like it is now. There is a great potential in the Veteran Ranks, but it is not used and as things further develop they won't be used well. Everything progresses in veteran zone but your character stays almost the same. So lets start giving suggestions how to improve it.
- Add veteran points. After you gain a new rank you get 5 veteran points that you can use as attribute points.
You only got one for each level you achieved why should you get 45 more attribute points for getting from VR1 -10 ?2 -
awkwarrd✭✭✭Veteran Area's are fine for guilds who help each other and level together.
Majority of the time though, people complete the zone and move to next, they don't come back, unless there was an achievement or something they needed/wanted to do.
Veterans for ALTS, i can't express how boring that would be for me, but some people might enjoy the long term goal, im sure that was part of the subscription plan for the game aswell.
Majority of the time it's those vr10 guild groups who exploit the hell out of the veteran content and keep it quiet to power level alts and stuff, there are a few people with multiple vr10 characters on the same account..
When everyone knows how they got those levels, but no-one appears to want to report how they did it.
So you don't see any of those problems posted on forums or anything.
The Cyradiil EXP gains for Veterans is Horrible, and general EXP gains overall is terrible.0 -
Evergreen✭✭✭South_of_Heaven wrote: »For example, a third morphing of our skills, adding new additional effects feels almost essential to keep one interested through veteran content and keep him going.
Way too early to be asking for anything to be done with skills until the bugged/broken main class skills are fixed. The Nightblade for example has the most bugged/broken skills of any class in the game. Comprehensive list of bugged Nightblade skills
Fix the class skills and make sure the mechanics are balanced before adding any new content especially this soon not even being a month after release.0 -
Udaku✭✭You know... Soon there won't be anyone to play this game. Have you seen VR5 Zones?!? Almost Empty! This is to prevent boring experiences not to rush up. Suddenly, everyone are afraid to feel strong in veteran ranks. I don't feel like a Veteran when I am playing there, I more feel like some scum that gets killed just because someone doesn't want to have more than 3000 HP or more than 200 damage.Boycott, oppose & unsubscribe!1
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legiont666ub17_ESO wrote: »Veteran zones are emptier and emptier of players as you progress. Yes, it should be more difficult but in the way you said, not in the way like it is now. There is a great potential in the Veteran Ranks, but it is not used and as things further develop they won't be used well. Everything progresses in veteran zone but your character stays almost the same. So lets start giving suggestions how to improve it.
- Add veteran points. After you gain a new rank you get 5 veteran points that you can use as attribute points.
You only got one for each level you achieved why should you get 45 more attribute points for getting from VR1 -10 ?
To be fair, it's a valid point in that VR1-10 equals another 50 levels, so why not?1 -
Lonn87b16_ESO wrote: »legiont666ub17_ESO wrote: »Veteran zones are emptier and emptier of players as you progress. Yes, it should be more difficult but in the way you said, not in the way like it is now. There is a great potential in the Veteran Ranks, but it is not used and as things further develop they won't be used well. Everything progresses in veteran zone but your character stays almost the same. So lets start giving suggestions how to improve it.
- Add veteran points. After you gain a new rank you get 5 veteran points that you can use as attribute points.
You only got one for each level you achieved why should you get 45 more attribute points for getting from VR1 -10 ?
To be fair, it's a valid point in that VR1-10 equals another 50 levels, so why not?
I can see them giving you one point per veteran rank but not 45. A third skill morph would be enough for me. I also do not see how it equals another 50 levels since really all that changes is soft cap and the level of gear that you can wear. I would assume that most would add this to health as with the soft cap at veteran ranks can easily be achieved with enchantments not sure if another 675 health or 450 of magika or stamina would really be worth it since most can get soft cap on 2 attributes with previous levels and enchantments.0 -
South_of_Heaven✭✭✭You don't have to be a seer to know that many more "veteran content sux" threads pop up in the future, when more people start getting through the veteran content.
And it definitely will be a reason for people to cancel their subscription prematurely.
I don't get why ZOS chose to make character development this way. Seems like the game launched prematurely because after 50 and for the rest 2/3 of the game, skill lines are already maxed (only crafting skills are not) and your character is pretty much static.Edited by South_of_Heaven on April 24, 2014 8:49PM1 -
Minack✭✭✭South_of_Heaven wrote: »You don't have to be a seer to know that many more "veteran content sux" threads pop up in the future, when more people start getting through the veteran content.
And it definitely will be a reason for people to cancel their subscription prematurely.
I don't get why ZOS chose to make character development this way. Seems like the game launched prematurely because after 50 and for the rest 2/3 of the game, skill lines are already maxed (only crafting skills are not) and your character is pretty much static.
Lack of ideas. Laziness. Misguided belief that everyone enjoys leveling.2 -
Mizumauz✭I previously felt like I was reaching the end of the game around level 35-45ish, so I stated my fears and was told that upon reaching the veteran ranks there's loads more content and plenty to do. Well damn, there is loads more content, and yes there is plenty to do. But do I want to do it? Not really. Is there an incentive, I guess at this time there really isn't, at least not one compelling enough to keep subscribing.
I played in beta, made characters on all alliances, so I've been there done that. While I know this isn't true for all people, it will be shortly, as they make an alt, and the whole cycle starts all over again... I can't even be compelled to do anything, because as you said-rewards are so unrewarding, gear gains equally unsatisfying... and the difference between a green/legendary really is marginal..
I don't want to waste another 100 hours or so getting through this content (which since I've played it before it really is painfully boring) and reaching "max level" once again, only to be faced with the daunting question of, what is end game now?
Sure, they're releasing more content, but they need to vastly improve the existing content first imo, in regards to the rewards, and incentives to do things. What will my incentive be to play through the upcoming content if the completion of the current content was so unrewarding.I LOVE YOU!1 -
Malediktus✭✭✭✭Lack of character progression from V1 to V10+ is to balance Cyrodiil. A V1 is already much stronger than a lvl 1-49, more progression would just make it even worse.@Malediktus --- Ebonheart Pact, EU-Megaserver0 -
South_of_Heaven✭✭✭minack1preub18_ESO wrote: »South_of_Heaven wrote: »You don't have to be a seer to know that many more "veteran content sux" threads pop up in the future, when more people start getting through the veteran content.
And it definitely will be a reason for people to cancel their subscription prematurely.
I don't get why ZOS chose to make character development this way. Seems like the game launched prematurely because after 50 and for the rest 2/3 of the game, skill lines are already maxed (only crafting skills are not) and your character is pretty much static.
Lack of ideas. Laziness. Misguided belief that everyone enjoys leveling.
Even if everyone enjoyed leveling (I know I do), I do not consider veteran content (the 2/3 of the game) as "leveling". Not without actual character development. The content IS beautiful but now it's more like continuous stale questing.
1-50 was a great leveling experience. It made you anticipate every level and skyshard, new sets etc. Never got bored. A few days in vet now and my boredom is nearing its limit.Malediktus wrote: »Lack of character progression from V1 to V10+ is to balance Cyrodiil. A V1 is already much stronger than a lvl 1-49, more progression would just make it even worse.
With the same line of thought, we could also strip the remaining 1/3 (1-50) of it's character development. Having no progression in veteran ranks just to preserve better Cyrodiil "fair play" is like cutting a hand because you hurt a finger.Edited by South_of_Heaven on April 24, 2014 9:29PM3 -
Hexi✭✭✭✭✭No progression? lol... just... lol. I'm VR6, bring any lvl50 against me in Cyrodiil and I'll demolish them one on one.
Sure, it's not as drastic as levels before VR, but it is significant.Edited by Hexi on April 24, 2014 9:37PM3 -
South_of_Heaven✭✭✭No progression? lol... just... lol. I'm VR6, bring any lvl50 against me in Cyrodiil and I'll demolish them one on one.
Sure, it's not as drastic as levels before VR, but it is significant.
No, not talking about Cyrodiil. There is a scaling system with soft caps active there, which scales certain low level players up and many higher level players down. However, as far as I know, it doesn't scale down very high level veteran players (at least not much), so you are right about Cyrodiil. Veteran rank matters there. However I was making a completely different point in my posts.
Edited by South_of_Heaven on April 24, 2014 9:41PM0 -
LazerusKI✭✭✭a second morph would be great as a future addition.
i reached v10 i think yesterday or so, i have not much to do, a little grinding with a friend, a few days per week PVP...
and i have to say...i was never a pvp player...GW2 was somehow interesting, sadly it was purely zerging there.
Thought it would end up the same here. but the ESO system is more strategic, we have more possibilitys (cant wait to get my sniper-squad), and if Vamp and NB would be working there, i would be there way more often.0 -
Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭i have to agree with this. I LOVE the stick but its missing the carrot. (not being sarcastic I really do enjoy the veteran ranks but I think it needs a better reward)
+1 agree0 -
South_of_Heaven✭✭✭I LOVE the stick but its missing the carrot.
Couldn't have said it better :PYou also have Craglorn or whatever coming next month, which if for vr10 people.
I really hate to sound pessimistic but the thing is that many will cancel theirs subs before they actually get to vr10 because of the reasons I mention in the post. My friend list is already "full" of VR1 players who hardly log in any more. Do you know what that means?(forgot to mention this in the OP!)
And even if they do release Crag, what is expected there? An item upgrade that is not menial? More skill points (where will we put them - ok don't answer this one)?
Edited by South_of_Heaven on April 24, 2014 9:54PM1 -
There were mobs of people waiting on coldharbor and now in the 4th veteran zone there are barely enough people around to do a Dolmen, my hubby is slightly higher than me and there are even less people around. Either people are rolling alts or quitting. I am still having fun but even I am feeling the burn after a couple of hours.
The terrible scaling doesn't help either, until I did some experimentation I actually dreaded fighting mobs, and some of the quests have really pushed my patience.
I can see alot of softer players quitting due to the lack of true character progression by doing vet content and bad mob scaling. Which is a real shame because the gameplay itself is really really fun (in my opinion).Edited by l-wilson-1986b16_ESO on April 24, 2014 10:02PM2 -
Soliduparrow✭✭✭minack1preub18_ESO wrote: »
Lack of ideas. Laziness. Misguided belief that everyone enjoys leveling.
Most mmorpg players do enjoy leveling. Veteran is not leveling. You can play for 5 hours and not feel like you've made any progress on your character. 1500 quest xp in veteran zones is ***.2 -
Soliduparrow✭✭✭Zenimax CEO: "Most mmorpgs fail when players reach endgame and then quit. I need you guys to figure out a way to prevent that"
ESO Developer: "What if we put in a roadblock that stops people from ever wanting to reach endgame in the first place?"
CEO:" How fast can you implement this?"
ESO Dev:"I can do it in a few hours. It is really just a copy and paste job"
CEO:"*** yeah! long weekend coming up im going to get wasted. See you guys in 6 months"7 -
South_of_Heaven✭✭✭mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »minack1preub18_ESO wrote: »
Lack of ideas. Laziness. Misguided belief that everyone enjoys leveling.
Most mmorpg players do enjoy leveling. Veteran is not leveling. You can play for 5 hours and not feel like you've made any progress on your character. 1500 quest xp in veteran zones is ***.
Thing is, even if you get all this exp, skyshards and levels what do you actually get for them? Some barely needed skill points and a few attribute points.
Skill lines are designed only until level 50-ish. Most are more or less maxed by then. Only the crafting ones are designed for further levels. Without any more skills to get or to morph, or any other actual development, leveling becomes a drudgery.
I would be happy if there was some kind of development even if you got little exp and leveling was slow. But there is not.0 -
Dalriaden✭✭✭mcconnell2_ESO wrote: »minack1preub18_ESO wrote: »
Lack of ideas. Laziness. Misguided belief that everyone enjoys leveling.
Most mmorpg players do enjoy leveling. Veteran is not leveling. You can play for 5 hours and not feel like you've made any progress on your character. 1500 quest xp in veteran zones is ***.
If you spend 5 hours in a veteran zone and don't see progress you're doing something severely wrong.
Kinda wish it gave another attribute point say ever 2 levels or something but that's really my only complaint that's not really a complaint, with only 3 vr levels left to go.
Edited by Dalriaden on April 24, 2014 10:48PM0 -
Brakkar✭✭✭VR dungeon rewards need a bit of work.
I've done my daily run on wednesday, BC and Spindleclutch. Got 0 epic quality loot, one blue ring. A friend in same party got armor piece he didn't want, but could use the ring I got, but ofc we can't trade armor/jewelry drops from vr dungeons. Even within same party that finished the dungeon.
There really have to be an option for that.
This is what I fear the most when thinking about 12 man content, that instead of 4 you will have 12 angry people, who got nothing for a lot of effort, or something thay can't even use.0 -
Dalriaden✭✭✭VR dungeon rewards need a bit of work.
I've done my daily run on wednesday, BC and Spindleclutch. Got 0 epic quality loot, one blue ring. A friend in same party got armor piece he didn't want, but could use the ring I got, but ofc we can't trade armor/jewelry drops from vr dungeons. Even within same party that finished the dungeon.
There really have to be an option for that.
This is what I fear the most when thinking about 12 man content, that instead of 4 you will have 12 angry people, who got nothing for a lot of effort, or something thay can't even use.
Welcome to every dungeon/raid in every mmo?
Went through hsoo many many times without getting anything my guardian druid could use. Did i sit there and whine about it? No.
You don't need purples/yellows from a vr dungeon that isn't end game, and guess what, craglorn doesn't have a lockout so you can run it multiple times till you get that item that satisfies your epeen.2