this is why I hate PVPers

Medicius

I only have one character to level 39 and I haven't tried PvP yet, though my end goal is to have one PvE primary and one PvP primary. So please take my thoughts with a grain of salt - because in this game I have limited PvE experience and zero PvP experience.

I think we see this happen in every game. There will be a split between PvE/P gamers because of how characters need to be built differently for each type of playstyle/player. So each side is going to have a valid argument; and while those arguments are going to call for different changes they're both, in this case, going to affect the same stats.

Here's where you can see the benefit to games that have a different set of stats enabled for PvP Play vs PvE Play. Where the armor traits are different for PvP than it is for PvE. It means more work on both the development and player sides, but allows separation of affected stats to prevent nerfs on one side of the coin affecting the face of the other.

Now, all that said, the development team is likely relying on the logged game data they're keeping for their metrics. And here is where I think we're going to have a number of issues. For instance, they're going to see very large spikes in certain skills being used, reactions times of said skills, and likely even invalid damage as the game is riddled with BOTS that are left in a certain dungeon to farm a certain mob or mob boss type. This is where you see 10-15 "ssddff" named characters doing the same animation at nearly the same x/y/z spot on the map. The same characters whose reaction times to mob appearances are nearly inhuman (oh wait...) and those same characters that are going to over-utilize certain skills that are only good in one aspect of a game (mob boss camping vs. other skills real players use to keep themselves alive, stun mob, etc.). And it is because of the BOT problem that the Metrics are likely hosed and skewed. So when the dev goes in to look at what numbers are spiked higher than others off the median, they're going to see attack skills, damages, etc and nerf or "fix" said skills.

And sure, they'll bring the numbers closer to the median, affecting how one damage type works against all mobs, or even certain mobs, when really - the problem was that a BOT was using fire because it affected one boss more than any other attack. And said bot never uses any other attack since they're only ever playing against this one mob.

So I think that whatever side you're on for this argument you need to prepare yourselves to be hosed. Because change is inevitable in an MMO as the balance stick will often be over-swung in order to fix glaring issues - likely caused by invalid metrics data in games where BOTS are allowed to run rampant. Especially when both sides of the Pv-playstyle coin use the same skills.

zamiel

Medicius wrote: »

There will be a split between PvE/P gamers because of how characters need to be built differently for each type of playstyle/player.

Your premise is false already. With 300 skill points in game, there's no need to 'build' characters separately. You just change gear/skill bar and into the grinder you go.

You also fail to see how the pvp/pve separation is already built in the game - most effective pve tactic is to CC the living hell out of the mobs. Everyone has built-in CC breaker. End of story.

Currently pve and pvp suffers from the same things:
- bugged vampire/NB skill line
- exploitable vampire/DK skills
- weak (or rather unrewarding) melee

Thechemicals

You have a handful of good players and a sea of bad players. However, a technology called voicechat has allowed for some of these bad players to become good. You still have many many many bad players out there, and they get angry too.

beravinprb19_ESO

zamiel wrote: »

Medicius wrote: »

There will be a split between PvE/P gamers because of how characters need to be built differently for each type of playstyle/player.

Your premise is false already. With 300 skill points in game, there's no need to 'build' characters separately. You just change gear/skill bar and into the grinder you go.

Yes and no. On one hand, having a lot of skill points will offer you a great deal of flexibility. On the other hand, I've found that a lot of morphs are useful for either PvP or PvE, but not both. So, you often have to choose a preference. I've done so a few times now.

zamiel wrote: »

Medicius wrote: »

There will be a split between PvE/P gamers because of how characters need to be built differently for each type of playstyle/player.

You also fail to see how the pvp/pve separation is already built in the game - most effective pve tactic is to CC the living hell out of the mobs. Everyone has built-in CC breaker. End of story.

That's not really a fair assessment. True, players can break out of it, but a lot of PvE bosses are immune to it entirely. Those that are not immune are kind of a joke, as you can just shut them down. Some of the better fights are the ones that don't involve chain CC.

zamiel wrote: »

Medicius wrote: »

There will be a split between PvE/P gamers because of how characters need to be built differently for each type of playstyle/player.

Currently pve and pvp suffers from the same things:
- bugged vampire/NB skill line
- exploitable vampire/DK skills
- weak (or rather unrewarding) melee

As someone who both PvPs and PvEs, I think there are quite a few skills out there that are way out of line. Cleansing Ritual, for example, has completely ruined veteran Banished Cells by trivializing some of the more difficult fights. From what I have seen, at least.

Lanatireb17_ESO

i remember back then on everquest 2. the game was a pure pve experience. there was absolutely no pvp. a few years later they did introduce pvp, and the drama (and nerfing, buffing, balancing and whining) started. yes, the op is right. pvp(ers) usually are the bane of every pve game.

Thechemicals

Honestly, the best pvp players are very community oriented and are adults. Its the other 80% of pvpers who are wannabe's and young.

LadyChaos

Thechemicals wrote: »

Honestly, the best pvp players are very community oriented and are adults. Its the other 80% of pvpers who are wannabe's and young.

\o/

zamiel

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Yes and no. On one hand, having a lot of skill points will offer you a great deal of flexibility. On the other hand, I've found that a lot of morphs are useful for either PvP or PvE, but not both. So, you often have to choose a preference. I've done so a few times now.

I really think that the skills which overlap pvp and pve AND have morphs useful for only one of these are only a hadful. A few even. Of course this is highly class dependant, but for those I played I would be hard pressed to name even one. Most of the time something I want in pvp is not something I want in pve, but I guess this is very dependant on the class/build/player.

zamiel wrote: »

That's not really a fair assessment. True, players can break out of it, but a lot of PvE bosses are immune to it entirely. Those that are not immune are kind of a joke, as you can just shut them down. Some of the better fights are the ones that don't involve chain CC.

Current 'better' fights go usually - tank taunts the boss and kites/mitigates its damage while the rest of the party CCs the living daylight out of the adds/trash. This game is quite special as in most boss fights managing the trash is the real pain (and they deal more damage than the boss anyway). So I disagree with you in this aspect - pve is about CC (besides taunt is a CC).

zamiel wrote: »

As someone who both PvPs and PvEs, I think there are quite a few skills out there that are way out of line. Cleansing Ritual, for example, has completely ruined veteran Banished Cells by trivializing some of the more difficult fights. From what I have seen, at least.

I was talking about bugs/exploits. You are talking about balance. In your example they can change mobs composition/stats, etc. If something is only broken in a very specific environment I do think that the enviroment is at fault, not the bigger thing. And to be even more specific - you are complaining about a skill that does exactly what it supposed to - removing debuffs. How would you change the skill to name it 'balanced'?

captainhorizon

its every game man. this wont change. and the above statement that the best pvprs are adults and community organizers is true in my experience. most of the whining comes from inexperienced gamers that just want whatever they are doing to be buffed and whatever the other guy is doing to be nerfd.

those that present balance issues to developers thru testing and solid fact based presentations should be welcomed by any community looking for balanced gameplay.

have fun kill bad guys

-horizon

knaveofengland

oh my next they be asking for care bears and mr blobby

lajnus86b16_ESO

cyrodill aint pvp dont even CALL it pvp, its one big fest of unfair and 0 skillfulness.

Arena/AB/WSG, there you have skillful and ARENA.

where skill matters and tactics make you win, and you can faceroll over or defend a base just becuse you are 50 ppl more than the other attacker.

KoooZ

My recommendation to everyone who doesn't like pvpers is to go kill them as much as possible in game. Crush them so hard they quit playing!

Samadhi

tw1jaysin wrote: »

Real pvpers don't complain...they adapt.

All this.
I PvP daily. I don't find issues in the class balance or skills.

I always figure that the players who go to the PvP forum and whine for nerfs or buffs are actually PvErs who wandered into Cyrodiil and met disappointment rather than actual PvPers.

chrisub17_ESO104

Remove pve from the game. Problem solved.

mikeabboudb14_ESO

actual staying away from the forums in most games is probably good for your sanity. It can really get you down about the game. Sometimes I wonder why they even allow them. Still its a good place to come when you need help with a build or help with a quest that might be tough.

Khazaad

mikeabboudb14_ESO wrote: »

all they do is whine about how easy the other guy has it and hard they have it. Just looking thorugh the discussion list PVPers are calling for nerfs to templer and sorcerer teleport or the dk talons. Its why there shouldnt be any PVP just make the game without it. If you want a fair and balanced system that treats all players equally play pong. Otherwise SFU and just play the game. your going to ruin it with your constant never ending calls for buffs and nerfs.

Whining isn't PVPcentric. What you really hate is the difficulty curve associated with social combat compared to AI opponents which is totally understandable... ya don't gotta whine about it tho.

DGVish

crislevin wrote: »

There stems to be so many NB whiners on the forum nowadays.

Probably because of the long list of class abilities that should define their class and role they choose not working as intended. IDK just a guess that ACTUAL problems with their class might be considered issues, and not the forum trolls crying because they are a lvl 20 NB who got shitstomped by a Vet10.