Loot change in Patch notes - Harms Real Players, not Bots.

Zarec

Their intention was to focus on the campers for that change. The bots are a different matter and will be handled by either implementation of a game guard system designed to check for macros and programs that affect game behavior or they will start setting things where the more times you kill a boss in a row the less you get till you get nothing making all camping useless.

Rantog

Zarec wrote: »

Their intention was to focus on the campers for that change. The bots are a different matter and will be handled by either implementation of a game guard system designed to check for macros and programs that affect game behavior or they will start setting things where the more times you kill a boss in a row the less you get till you get nothing making all camping useless.

Ah, I wish it were still so simple.

Back in the day, Bots were automated one of two ways (the ways you're thinking of)

They worked essentially as macros, feeding input directly to the client, and the really smart ones were able to respond to feedback From the client and use a script to "play" the game.

The more determined, intercepted the data-stream client-server to modify data as it was sent.

Both of those could be Detected by efforts within the game client.

But modern bot software is the result of companies Using those forms of detection. It no longer touches the game client in any way.
Instead, it controls aspects of the game by sending the codes from your Keyboard, Mouse, or gamepad/etc to the operating system itself.


There are only 3 ways to detect a bot via code.
#1 - Look for it specifically, ask windows for all running processes and see if it is one of them.
Problems : It is Illegal (still debated) a privacy issue. And it can be Easily voided by cloaking the program as a Known process.

#2 - Test for artificial input sources.
Problems :Not possible with neew software because (as I detailed) they don't Use artificial inputs, they lie to the OS and it sends Real inputs.

#3 - Write a monumental Artificially Intelligent anti-Bot that observes the Behavior of a character, and decides if they are acting Human enough-- otherwise, they're a bot.
Problems: False positives, and the bot scripts simply get added on to, giving them more Human aspects.. random length pauses, and movements, opening trade with one another, sending Tells to one another...

This is why I continue to hope they will get some Actual GMs in the game. The idea that they can Code a solution - is just... I won't say Impossible, but so close you would need an electron microscope to see the difference.

Soloeus

I can't loot bosses now because of the cheaters. I can't heal or damage anything enough, and every boss gives me 0xp and 0 loot.

LadyDestiny

Spent the day in greenshade yesterday running around gathering mats, just like you are suppose too....lol what a joke. Half the nodes are glitched underground and the invisible ninja bot freaks take every enchanting rune, alchemy and clothing plant before I could even click on them. What a waste of time.

Zarec

Rantog wrote: »

show previous quotes

Zarec wrote: »

Their intention was to focus on the campers for that change. The bots are a different matter and will be handled by either implementation of a game guard system designed to check for macros and programs that affect game behavior or they will start setting things where the more times you kill a boss in a row the less you get till you get nothing making all camping useless.

Ah, I wish it were still so simple.

Back in the day, Bots were automated one of two ways (the ways you're thinking of)

They worked essentially as macros, feeding input directly to the client, and the really smart ones were able to respond to feedback From the client and use a script to "play" the game.

The more determined, intercepted the data-stream client-server to modify data as it was sent.

Both of those could be Detected by efforts within the game client.

But modern bot software is the result of companies Using those forms of detection. It no longer touches the game client in any way.
Instead, it controls aspects of the game by sending the codes from your Keyboard, Mouse, or gamepad/etc to the operating system itself.


There are only 3 ways to detect a bot via code.
#1 - Look for it specifically, ask windows for all running processes and see if it is one of them.
Problems : It is Illegal (still debated) a privacy issue. And it can be Easily voided by cloaking the program as a Known process.

#2 - Test for artificial input sources.
Problems :Not possible with neew software because (as I detailed) they don't Use artificial inputs, they lie to the OS and it sends Real inputs.

#3 - Write a monumental Artificially Intelligent anti-Bot that observes the Behavior of a character, and decides if they are acting Human enough-- otherwise, they're a bot.
Problems: False positives, and the bot scripts simply get added on to, giving them more Human aspects.. random length pauses, and movements, opening trade with one another, sending Tells to one another...

This is why I continue to hope they will get some Actual GMs in the game. The idea that they can Code a solution - is just... I won't say Impossible, but so close you would need an electron microscope to see the difference.

If I remember correctly, by botters intercepting the packets through their program prior to the game actually reading it we get the speed hackers and people wreaking havoc in The World (total //.hack flashback there). Now if I remember correctly blizzard used a game warrior (think that was the name) that scanned the packets received and the packets sending in real time and if something wasn't matching up with with blizzard expected from the files (why most companies encrypt everything now) your account was flagged for review.

Zarec

Although with the current state of the games infrastructure, adding another process heavy component might not be in their best interest, but you would think game companies would try to active instead of reactive to the bot problem that always comes with a popular named game.

Censorious

I'm dismayed that they decided to 'fix' the minor problem of farming and did nothing to deal with the major one.
Perhaps it really is too difficult for them.

Zarec

Censorious wrote: »

I'm dismayed that they decided to 'fix' the minor problem of farming and did nothing to deal with the major one.
Perhaps it really is too difficult for them.

To tell you guys the truth...even if they actually banned thousands of accounts as they say (I can see 1k accounts getting banned but not more by far) we wouldn't see much of a change in bot activity for several months here is why...

1. With the game being new and more players coming into the game daily, right now risking that ban is more lucrative than not risking anything whatsoever.

2. While accounts get banned daily we as players don't notice unless we record several days worth and they compare data. So we may be seeing less bots, but in our minds even one bot is too many so our perception is colored.

3. Unless you're on the dev team, complaining about how a team is handling something when the game has not been out officially a month is like counting your chickens before they hatch. You expect them to fail so no matter what they do you will see failure no matter what. (Hint: that actually would be a sign of a mental health disorder,might want to get that looked into ;-))

Zaeth

All I see in the forums is QQ

Rantog

Zarec wrote: »

If I remember correctly, by botters intercepting the packets through their program prior to the game actually reading it we get the speed hackers and people wreaking havoc in The World (total //.hack flashback there).

Old school hacks
The speedhack and teleport/warps - specifically, they CAN detect.. and why they haven't already blocked them I can't begin to fathom.

Eventually they will have to move Precedence of coordinate handling to the Servers, allowing the Client to do it is just Begging for these things.

Blackwidow

Zaeth wrote: »

All I see in the forums is QQ

Look up the word ironic sometime.

If you can't find it, try hypocrite.

Darzil

Rantog wrote: »

Eventually they will have to move Precedence of coordinate handling to the Servers, allowing the Client to do it is just Begging for these things.

My GUESS is they are working on getting the servers to verify, but have to do a lot of sanity checking. So for example porting to any wayshrine area is allowed, as is to any dungeon entrance, but porting above a certain distance elsewhere is not. They've then got various quests that teleport you, which would have to be catered for.

Otherwise you have issues such as when people got banned for being underground when they had the falling through the ground bug rather than when they were running around underground taking crafting nodes.

Rantog

Darzil wrote: »

My GUESS is they are working on getting the servers to verify, but have to do a lot of sanity checking. So for example porting to any wayshrine area is allowed, as is to any dungeon entrance, but porting above a certain distance elsewhere is not. They've then got various quests that teleport you, which would have to be catered for.

Otherwise you have issues such as when people got banned for being underground when they had the falling through the ground bug rather than when they were running around underground taking crafting nodes.

I would like to think this was obvious.. but things to date...

My guess is that these things all use the same handler, but delivered from different interfaces... making their exclusion a simple matter.

I hadn't thought of falling, odd.... but it gives a distinct form of data.. Where teleports and speed hacks will tend to change all three axes, where falling almost immediately goes to Only the Z axis, and always in one direction.

Distinguishing between a dip/escape (falling under the map to lose aggro etc) and actual falling would take some actual work.. not a lot, but more so than the rest - which could be done by someone still working their way through "hello world."

Windshadow_ESO

Don't the the bot runners just use stolen CC# to buy the accounts they need?

kamohs212eb17_ESO

Windshadow_ESO wrote: »

Don't the the bot runners just use stolen CC# to buy the accounts they need?

Even if they do:
1) Hey, Zeni will get their moneys anyway, so why do they care?
2) How stupid you should be to lost your CC? And even then, one telephon call to your bank, less than 5 min talk and your CC is blocked. But... ITS SO HARD, ISN'T IT!?
3) And what happend to double authorization system? If you use physical CC there is pin-code only you should know. If you use CC via internet there is SMS one-time autorization codes, n'est-ce pas?

Btw, IP is easy to mask. And if user use local IP (like little city providers - tons of computers, but one local IP)? Ban innocent? They should ban by CPu' product id. Or HDD product id.

I hope Zeni will make a guard system as soon as possible.

Rantog

kamohs212eb17_ESO wrote: »

Btw, IP is easy to mask.
...
They should ban by CPu' product id. Or HDD product id.

I hope Zeni will make a guard system as soon as possible.

They don't have access to the mac address, it is secured in your own network - but even that is cloakable.

Used to be CC bans were somewhat effective, but now that you can get a disposable card and charge it with just the necessary amounts ..... some conveniences really make things inconvenient.

Makodus

Rantog, you're absolutely correct. A bot fix would imply that there would be less bots in the game. Are there less bots in the game? No. Are players adversely affected? Yes.

Loot spawns randomly. If you have a game in which loot spawns randomly, then players will need to kill a boss more than once.

This fix is flawed.

zhevon

Makodus wrote: »

Rantog, you're absolutely correct. A bot fix would imply that there would be less bots in the game. Are there less bots in the game? No. Are players adversely affected? Yes.

Loot spawns randomly. If you have a game in which loot spawns randomly, then players will need to kill a boss more than once.

This fix is flawed.

Although I generally agree - its unclear if there are less bots in the game or not; I am certainly getting less spam and seeing less bot like activity. But your results may vary.

The randomness of loot is totally ridiculous. If it is the first you are involved in a boss you should always get some loot leveled to the boss . Its really discouraging to get no loot or 2 gold; and this happens even if you are within the proper level range. Its happened to me at least 2 times and I am just in Auridon. In fact it happened to me just yesterday - I got nothing from a first boss kill. And now you have to run-around the same dungeon farming mobs for 10 minutes just to try again.

Randazzo

As always, the true malady is overlooked.

Those players who purchase gold and items from these "companies". Said players are the root cause, nothing else.