Rapid gear decay

hood3311_ESO

Why not give the option to repair items with crafting supplies deconstructed from correlating armor types? Regardless, the decay rate should be lowered.

hood3311_ESO

delete

Arwyn

Just ran Village of the lost, im level 48. Other than the death at the end 880g repairs.

Now I know I have looted stuff but that is 50% of my armor destroyed for 20 minutes killing things.

If Zen dont fix this I cannot see endgame working.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

@SootyTX thanks for the dolmen clarification lol, yeah done my fair share of em for sure. glad the info was solid enough, this issue wont fly for long for anyone.

@Arwyn you are completely right, i believe their last Q&A straight up said "expect to die a lot," so it wont last for sure.

@hood3311_ESO i like that idea for more than just this issue. it would keep the trade skills viable at end-game and allow repairs during raids as needed. just attach the repair kit to their corresponding trades. plate-> blacksmithing, cloth/hide->clothier.

SootyTX

hood3311_ESO wrote: »

Why not give the option to repair items with crafting supplies deconstructed from correlating armor types? Regardless, the decay rate should be lowered.

Crafters repairing makes sense but I'm wondering how that can work in practice. Clearly, armor decay is, and has always been, a money sink in MMOs. The mobs giveth (gold) and the mobs taketh away (damage). As @Darzil noted, the gold cash drops seem to pretty well match point for point against the damage incurred without any deaths.

With crafters doing the repairs, you aren't taking gold out of the system which leads to rapid inflation, which is an entry barrier for new players and can cause a lot of other issues, especially with endgame and crafting. MMO developers in previous games track gold in vs gold out very closely, i see no reason ZoS isn't doing the same.

So, perhaps allow crafters to repair using mats and reduced gold cost - this has the effect of still being a money sink as well as a materials sink, which is a good thing, and reduces the individual's perception of excessive repair costs.

@Arwyn I do agree that endgame is going to be a different story. I'm hesitant to predict without seeing the impact of the group damage fixes coming in 1.1 but it could well be that ZoS will need to refine the rates slightly and/or reduce the on death impact if they are going to succeed with the 'you are going to die a lot' concept. Without quest rewards, trials and the like could rapidly become cost prohibitive, or even simply appear cost prohibitive, which is just as bad as far as the game goes.

kasain

Gold could be used for houseing. But eith broken repair, it never will.

Hey lets pay rmt bots to take pics of them ealking down from the sky I across zones. Maybe send pics to forbes to laugh at the investers of eso.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

SootyTX wrote: »

hood3311_ESO wrote: »

Why not give the option to repair items with crafting supplies deconstructed from correlating armor types? Regardless, the decay rate should be lowered.

Crafters repairing makes sense but I'm wondering how that can work in practice. Clearly, armor decay is, and has always been, a money sink in MMOs. The mobs giveth (gold) and the mobs taketh away (damage). As @Darzil noted, the gold cash drops seem to pretty well match point for point against the damage incurred without any deaths.

With crafters doing the repairs, you aren't taking gold out of the system which leads to rapid inflation, which is an entry barrier for new players and can cause a lot of other issues, especially with endgame and crafting. MMO developers in previous games track gold in vs gold out very closely, i see no reason ZoS isn't doing the same.

So, perhaps allow crafters to repair using mats and reduced gold cost - this has the effect of still being a money sink as well as a materials sink, which is a good thing, and reduces the individual's perception of excessive repair costs.

sorry for the slight derail of the topic, but the repair kits could still exist and yet there would still be a "need" for NPC repairs. kits cost time, money, and expertise (more time and money). they theoretically will not be cost efficient at all times versus an NPC repair (instant gratification). another piece of the puzzle would be to have them only repair a percentage, say 25% total armor damage, or even having 1 kit repair one item. i know they already have repair kits that you can buy so the item itself is already in the game. having not used one not sure how they work at the moment. but 1 kit per item or 25% overall will maintain a need/desire for players to go to an NPC to repair gear.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

hood3311_ESO wrote: »

Why not give the option to repair items with crafting supplies deconstructed from correlating armor types? Regardless, the decay rate should be lowered.

would make way too much sense if crafters could repair gear. Been spending way too much doing what i should be able to do myself. I made it, i should be able to fix it.

starkerealm

SootyTX wrote: »

MMO developers in previous games track gold in vs gold out very closely, i see no reason ZoS isn't doing the same.

That raises a disturbing possibility: That ZoS tasked decay to a semi-autonomous system that allocates deterioration (or adjusts decay rates) based on gold being generated in an area, and distributes it to players.

In theory it would put a cap on inflation. Unfortunately, we have bots. This might explain why spiking at higher levels roughly corresponded to bot infestations popping up, why it wasn't showing up at Vet levels until more recently, and why delves were showing an increased deterioration rate.

I seriously hope I'm mistaken about that, and as always, this is just speculation, I don't know how the system actually does work.

starkerealm

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

@starkerealm thats what i was thinking. thats how i know something shaky is going on. i was talking to my wife who plays a templar healer, she was saying that her repairs are really high, and has a real hard time keeping a positive cash flow. i have no abilities that benefit anyone but me, where as she has heals that splash anything/everything in the area. formal or informal groups or just someone standing by may be a big contributor

@ahstin2001nub18_ESO‌ I actually got into trouble because my Nightblade doesn't have any AoE. My girlfriend was seeing similar decay rates on her AoE rich Sorcerer. So, AoE alone can't be at issue. Unless there's an additional punitive bite for healers, which is possible. Strife might be causing faster decay than my other attacks, I'm not sure.

tordr86b16_ESO

I AOE grind as VR10 and I can say that my gear get's completely broken within 10 to 15 minutes of farming (without dying). Working as intended?

Arwyn

My latest reply from support, unfortunately I lack the energy to continue this fight.

"Thank you for following up. I apologize if the previous explanation did not adequately explain the situation.

As it turns out, there are a number of factors which are taken into account when determining item degradation, not just getting hit and taking damage. Were that the case, tanks and melee characters would be unfairly penalized for their role decisions. As such, it does not appear that what you are running into is a bug per say, but rather a potential issue with the balancing.

The scale and balancing of the repairs themselves though are something that we understand can be a topic of concern for players like yourself, as is illustrated in the forum thread that you linked.

We recognize that there is always room for improvement in the way that the various game mechanics are balanced, especially now, so early after release, and I certainly applaud and encourage keeping this discussion open. If I seemed unhelpful previously, I do apologize. My intention was to help you get your message in front of the most important decision makers in regards to these types of things. Along with the forums, the /feedback route is actually the best route for these types of concerns, as they are seen directly by the teams which implement these types of changes, when they occur. I apologize, I am never a fan of passing someone off, but in this case, it appears that this is an issue that you are passionate about, so I want to get you to the place where it will do the most good."

Basically 15 days later and as usual with support im no further forward. I officially give up on them, will let the do-do hit the fan when people cant get through this group content in 1.1 without constant repairs, they will have to change it then, I fear however with what they have shown in their ability to change things quickly that it will be too late.

I pray im wrong, I just don't think I am.

tordr86b16_ESO

Another round of AOE grind, another 0% durability within 15 minutes - without getting hit much. Your system is flawed ZOS, fix it before crag or your going to conjure a *** when the v1.1 patch goes live.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

this is why i quit game testing.... i got tired of debating with the devs on design. i ended up yelling at the dev cuz he didnt fix the bugs since the third revision when i came on, the revision he put out was clearly chop-shopped, and was ignored. good timing too because the whole tester department got laid off that very morning lol. it truly was a 24-hour shift to remember....

tordr86b16_ESO

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

this is why i quit game testing.... i got tired of debating with the devs on design. i ended up yelling at the dev cuz he didnt fix the bugs since the third revision when i came on, the revision he put out was clearly chop-shopped, and was ignored. good timing too because the whole tester department got laid off that very morning lol. it truly was a 24-hour shift to remember....

Are developers that arrogant?

Arwyn

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

this is why i quit game testing.... i got tired of debating with the devs on design. i ended up yelling at the dev cuz he didnt fix the bugs since the third revision when i came on, the revision he put out was clearly chop-shopped, and was ignored. good timing too because the whole tester department got laid off that very morning lol. it truly was a 24-hour shift to remember....

Are developers that arrogant?

Sadly yes, game developers are pretty bad at being "Im right the 10000 players are wrong". Normally though it takes time for them to get like that, bit like Blizzard are now, however ZoS have already started out that way which is not good.

The ignore the players at their peril im afraid.

I wish I didnt like the game so much, wouldnt bother me then.

Oh and 3 quests in coldharbour today, 1000g bill. GJ ZoS, GJ!

smokes

spent an hour last night grinding bats for leather and enchants - 1600g repair bill. fair enough i died twice, but that repair bill negated pretty much every penny i made.

if i died 10+ times i would expect that kind of repair bill, not from just being hit though, thats unbalanced.

i still haven't unlocked all my bank slots, or bought a horse (i at least have the imperial edition) but at this rate, i dont stand a chance of buying another horse, ever. let alone have money to spare on anything else, like crafting materials etc

gear decay is overly punishing to the point where i might as well find a way to farm naked

starkerealm

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

ahstin2001nub18_ESO wrote: »

this is why i quit game testing.... i got tired of debating with the devs on design. i ended up yelling at the dev cuz he didnt fix the bugs since the third revision when i came on, the revision he put out was clearly chop-shopped, and was ignored. good timing too because the whole tester department got laid off that very morning lol. it truly was a 24-hour shift to remember....

Are developers that arrogant?

If you ever get bored, you can google Derek Smart. Of course, by mentioning him, he'll probably drop by to scream about how he's completely normal. I've actually seen him do that before.

Once you realize he's out there, it gets a lot easier to track back from there.

zeuseason

I'm confident the devs will correct this, however it will take time. Months, possible a year. I suggest don't repair, just replace. I know that's hard for endgamers with yellow gear, so maybe just for everyone else.

Vhalkyrie

One of my characters that I've halted playing while I work on other things is my blacksmith. I haven't had her do anything except decon items and craft a few pieces for guildies. The armor that she was wearing is now completely destroyed without fighting a single mob for several weeks (it wasn't pristine, but not destroyed when I stopped playing her).

SootyTX

starkerealm wrote: »

SootyTX wrote: »

MMO developers in previous games track gold in vs gold out very closely, i see no reason ZoS isn't doing the same.

That raises a disturbing possibility: That ZoS tasked decay to a semi-autonomous system that allocates deterioration (or adjusts decay rates) based on gold being generated in an area, and distributes it to players.

In theory it would put a cap on inflation. Unfortunately, we have bots. This might explain why spiking at higher levels roughly corresponded to bot infestations popping up, why it wasn't showing up at Vet levels until more recently, and why delves were showing an increased deterioration rate.

I seriously hope I'm mistaken about that, and as always, this is just speculation, I don't know how the system actually does work.

Having spoken in person with a SWTOR dev about this sort of thing a couple of years ago, I'm pretty confident its not going to be an automated or fluid system. These guys are waaaaay more geeky and analytical than ZoS and they made any adjustments manually (and not frequently, which is a good thing as game markets ebb and flow like real ones). I really don't see any dev team wanting to take a dynamic approach.

orablast

It would appear this bug is hit or miss with me. I plan NB Bow (w/ AoE) + Siphon & Shadow. I was experiencing this problem in my VR1 gear quite a bit, however, now I am using VR3 gear and I can go days without repairing my gear.

I have to admit, it sure is nice. I am able to save gold again, racked up 30k in a couple of days. I do hope we can get this fixed as soon as possible. I can only offer this advice, hang in there and hope that it might get better.

SootyTX

Arwyn wrote: »

My latest reply from support, unfortunately I lack the energy to continue this fight.

<snipped>

I pray im wrong, I just don't think I am.

hey Arwyn - hang in there! I actually think that is a positive sign, that this thread especially is being watched and concerns are being noted. I honestly think they are being supportive and actively listening to us here.

Take a breather from coming here for sure, i know I do every few days to let my temper subside a bit

SootyTX

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Are developers that arrogant?

Game developers are people - and at this stage of release usually extremely tired, over-worked and over-stressed. If you come at them, like so many players do, with a bunch of vitriolic bs about how much they suck and how bad they are at their jobs, how they failed at whatever it is you are upset about, then they react the same way you or I would. And quite frankly I don't blame them.

Players are, far too often, nasty, vindictive, cowardly and just plain vicious with no real clue about what goes on for a project this big. Saying 'well, they are professionals they need to ignore all that' is all well and good but, as I said, they are human beings like you or me. And, most of the time, players don't have access to the information they do (deliberately) so we can't see the big picture. Screaming at them about how much their decisions suck and have ruined your life really isn't going to make them pay attention to you, trust me.

That's why this thread is important - for the most part, its been constructive, thoughtful and has brought up some good information. Are some posts people having tantrums - sure - but that's life in a gaming forum. The best thing we can do, if we really want them to listen and not shut us out, is to keep expressing our concerns, pushing forward our ideas and trying to support those being impacted by the bugs in the system as best we can.

Hiply

Vhalkyrie wrote: »

One of my characters that I've halted playing while I work on other things is my blacksmith. I haven't had her do anything except decon items and craft a few pieces for guildies. The armor that she was wearing is now completely destroyed without fighting a single mob for several weeks (it wasn't pristine, but not destroyed when I stopped playing her).

Did I really just read that your armour decayed while you were doing, at most, some crafting?

Ok, if that's the case I would love to see some ZOS flak try and defend it.

Arwyn

SootyTX wrote: »

Arwyn wrote: »

My latest reply from support, unfortunately I lack the energy to continue this fight.

<snipped>

I pray im wrong, I just don't think I am.

hey Arwyn - hang in there! I actually think that is a positive sign, that this thread especially is being watched and concerns are being noted. I honestly think they are being supportive and actively listening to us here.

Take a breather from coming here for sure, i know I do every few days to let my temper subside a bit

Yeah I do need a break from this forums, surprisingly I only have 2 problems with the game, this and prov mats in vet areas, I love everything about it but fighting support all the time is killing my love.

I sense much beer in my future

SootyTX

Arwyn wrote: »

SootyTX wrote: »

Arwyn wrote: »

My latest reply from support, unfortunately I lack the energy to continue this fight.

<snipped>

I pray im wrong, I just don't think I am.

hey Arwyn - hang in there! I actually think that is a positive sign, that this thread especially is being watched and concerns are being noted. I honestly think they are being supportive and actively listening to us here.

Take a breather from coming here for sure, i know I do every few days to let my temper subside a bit

Yeah I do need a break from this forums, surprisingly I only have 2 problems with the game, this and prov mats in vet areas, I love everything about it but fighting support all the time is killing my love.

I sense much beer in my future

I sense we are going to get along famously

Take a break - if anything important shows up I can ping you a notification to come take a look.

starkerealm

SootyTX wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Are developers that arrogant?

Game developers are people - and at this stage of release usually extremely tired, over-worked and over-stressed.

You're right, but you're also right, they're people. Both about the developers, and fan rage. Game developers come in both flavors, exhausted and arrogant. A good example of arrogance and rage kicking in at the same time would be Casey Hudson from the Mass Effect 3 launch. There's no question that the fans' vitriol crossed the line, but, at the same time, Hudson's response was to start screaming, "you just don't understand my genius!" ...and, pretty much, never stop.

Also, still talking about Bioware, those were the developers that described TOR as "the greatest achievement in human history." Without the tongue-in-cheek tone that Volition used when they made the same claim for Saints Row 4. Another pleasant reminder that arrogance isn't off the table.

What we don't know is, which this is. "Working as intended" isn't the same as screaming, "you just don't understand my genius," and the admission that something's gone screwy is slightly promising. But it's important to remember both parts. Players need to keep their vitriol in check, screaming at them won't make anything better, but, at the same time, that doesn't mean we can trust the developers' intentions.

I want to believe that the decay system is being fixed, but at the same time, I'm a little afraid the system is actually "working as intended," and we won't be seeing a rebalanced this year.

Blackwolfe5

It would not be the first time devs claiming that something was working as intended instead of admitting that it isn't and then later (after threads like this) finally actually properly looking into it and finding that no, it was not working as intended after all.

I hate when devs/mods say "working as intended" because half the time it isn't.

aipex8_ESO

Ran Lost City group public dungeon (VR4) in a group of 7 last night. Didn't die once. Repair bill: approx 1700 gold. Selling off my full inventory: approx 1800 gold. On top of that, the global boss loot timer means that in only one boss, maybe two if you crawl slowly, drops loot. Woohoo! 100G profit!

The bottom line is that the only way to actually make your gold grow I've found is to quest. You get 300-600 gold with a lot less combat than dungeons, dolmens, grinding, etc. It's like they are discouraging people from doing anything but questing. Why put dungeons in the game if there is no reward, and often just a penalty if you are on boss cooldown, for running through them?