So, where's the choice in this game?

Gohlar

knightblaster wrote: »

Fidelio wrote: »

Now please, where did i say i hate this game? Quite the opposite is the fact actually, you just need to read properly. I critized the lack of choice, thats all. I do like all the aspects, but i don't want to feel forced into one pattern.

As of the moment, you have to complete almost (now read carefully here... ALMOST) every single quest in order to proceed. Thats a forced path and i hope, they will improve on that.

It wasn't set up that way. It is that way now because the alternatives (dungeons, PvP) were abused to the heck by beta testers once early access came along, so they were nerfed into the ground. So, yes, now it's more cramped, but that wasn't the design. Hopefully once the launch/bug-kill rush gets over with they can turn to reactivating the XP aspects of these activities in a more balanced and less exploitable way.

That would be nice.

SadisticSavior wrote: »

Soul_of_Wrath wrote: »

As much as I know many on these forums just love to hate on WoW, they provide a quality product that millions of people still pay for every month. ESO is a lot of fun but is at best a niche MMO.

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how it is quality. What traits does it have that you think are quality traits?

And niche games can succeed. Eve is a glowing example. I personally do not give crap-1 whether or not ESO becomes the next WoW...in fact I might even prefer that it become a niche product because it means it won't be polluted with WoW-type players.

Sounds like WoW really chewed you up and spit you out.

It's a feature rich, polished game with a lot of content that appeals to a wide variety btw. I'm sick of it, but I recognize the quality.

I also think desperately trying to avoid anything that WoW does is beyond foolish, it's insane. It's like saying you saw a bruise on an apple so you will never eat oranges again.

SadisticSavior

Grayphilosophy wrote: »

I'm... I'm actually going to have to agree with OP a bit.. just a bit. The only way to progress in content is to progress in level, the only way to do that is to slave through the quests.

...and explore the world.
...and PvP

You can level to 50 in this game without doing any quests at all.

Fidelio

Nonsense. Really, have you done these parts? They give you so little experience that its almost worthless. Same thing with dungeons. Almost no experience, actually ... no experience beside 1-2 % of your bar.

You have to quest in order to proceed, there's no way around it. I can't just skip a few quests for a while and do some pvp or dungeons and get a level or two with it, you know, for diversity's sake ... no, i can do these for fun but no progression would be involved here.

So, back to you, little dialogue and hello solo play, thats the fact here. It's a mmorpg based entirely on solo play, no economy (thanks to that idea with trading guilds and everyone's able to craft and collect anything everywhere) and no group play (because you do not get any benefits out of it, besides "fun", but these two things should come together for me in a game like this).

And again, you can see that all the content is there. But its tuned down so incredible low and worthless that its either a bug or just a terrible ... if not stupid, decision.

SadisticSavior

Fidelio wrote: »

Nonsense. Really, have you done these parts? They give you so little experience that its almost worthless.

I have seen my skills increasing from doing nothing but reading random books in a building.

If your argument is "OMG there is no easy and fast XP", well, I have no tears for you. I like it that way.

You do have choices. You just don't like the other choices.

Fidelio wrote: »

You have to quest in order to proceed

No, you do not. You have to quest to proceed more rapidly.

If you want to take the easy way, you should quest. That does not mean you do not have choices.

Fidelio wrote: »

I can't just skip a few quests for a while and do some pvp or dungeons and get a level or two with it

LOL! Of course you can. I do that all the time. And I only solo...it is probably far easier in a group.

reignfyre

Me, I'm outraged that I can't level through jumping or falling off cliffs.

SadisticSavior

Gohlar wrote: »

Sounds like WoW really chewed you up and spit you out.

More like they ground me down to a stub through the treadmill of tedium. In fact, I think "Treadmill of Tedium" was the original name for one of their higher level dungeons.

Gohlar wrote: »

It's a feature rich, polished game

LOL

"Polished" maybe. Feature Rich? Not so much. List for me the top ten features of that game.

Sollyz

The levelling in this game is great! It stays true to the ES games; questing.

Fidelio

Too many trolls on this thread now, i will leave discussion from now on.

At least i tried to focus on a serious argumentation, but one can't win against fanboys or people, who are not being able to read a text properly.

Raubrey

MysticAura wrote: »

Please clarify? Your statement seems contradictory to what is currently in game . . .

I use my skills? I level it up and am rewarded with being able to morph an ability and gain access to additional abilities. My character develops.

Instead of running to the quest marker, I run left off the path to find: chests, mobs, nodes, skyshards. I am therefore rewarded with additional loot and, due to gathering more skyshards, can develop my character further.

This is the same gosh darn thing that happens in every single gosh darn ES games. You don't have to wander off in Skyrim and kill that mammoth. You can power along the quest line and ignore all those little side quests. But darnit that mammoth looked at me funny and I'm going to do it. [/insert splat of character from giant here]

Besides the fact that they blended MMO elements into what has traditionally been a single player franchise, it feels awfully similar to me. I'm honestly not trying to be snarky or anything, I'm just really, really confused by your statement, as it's counter to everything I've encountered in the game so far.

Not exactly. In Skyrim, you can finish the game late 20ish/early 30 level or 50, I've done both -- 4 times. I still haven't done everything. That is a LOT of content. Only a (relatively) small portion of this includes the XP you get from sneaking, crafting, speechcraft etc. but it all adds up.

I am not comparing the game but illustrating what I think the OP's point is and one that I agree with...if you have enough choice in quests, the game won't seem so linear even to those like myself who enjoy leveling (RPG style) but aren't FOCUSED on leveling necessarily.

I completely agree with someone who said ZoS needs to solidify the existing quests, fix bugs etc. but I believe it will be easy enough to add more quests.

Hopefully it won't be too long before Thieves Guild and Brotherhood are added -- though guild quests in general seem sparse currently.

The question is whether such content will be included in the game with sub or will it come out in costly expansions.

Lalai

I am enjoying the game, but I would like to see them offer different option for leveling. PvP should grant some experience, but not too much that people are able to exploit it to get to 50 in days (I thought that's what they fixed, but having not PvP'd I don't know if it's a valid leveling option). Dungeons I would also like to see give more exp.. .not public ones, but the 4-man instanced content.

Singular

knightblaster wrote: »

Fidelio wrote: »

Now please, where did i say i hate this game? Quite the opposite is the fact actually, you just need to read properly. I critized the lack of choice, thats all. I do like all the aspects, but i don't want to feel forced into one pattern.

As of the moment, you have to complete almost (now read carefully here... ALMOST) every single quest in order to proceed. Thats a forced path and i hope, they will improve on that.

It wasn't set up that way. It is that way now because the alternatives (dungeons, PvP) were abused to the heck by beta testers once early access came along, so they were nerfed into the ground. So, yes, now it's more cramped, but that wasn't the design. Hopefully once the launch/bug-kill rush gets over with they can turn to reactivating the XP aspects of these activities in a more balanced and less exploitable way.

Ok, so why do they have to wait for the "launch/bug-kill rush" to be over before they can balance xp sources?

Why do MMO devs/programmers, whoever, seem to always nerf too hard? I really don't understand that. It leads me to believe they 1) don't share white papers, 2) don't understand the concept of tinkering little by little to find an appropriate balance, or 3) have some bizarre culture of overreacting.

Personally I like taking my time in this game - exploring questing, cave diving, etc. So my leveling has been pretty slow. And I hate farming - but, when I bring my second character up in the same pact, I don't want to repeat all the same storylines, I just want to reach lvl 50 fast. What's the problem in that? Why are the devs/programmers so concerned to stop that leap to pvp? Why do they have to force a certain kind of playstyle?

sushi

I love how people just throw around the exploit word killing a mob that can kill you is not exploiting hiding in a object and killing a mob that cant hit you is a exploit etc etc just so you know you can easily grind to 50 in 20 - 30 hours grinding open world mobs.but the fan boys and the rp'ers get on here and cry when anyone gets to 50 in what they feel like is way to quickly. imo who cares how someone levels as long as they do not exploit I mean truly exploit if they want to grind 1 specific thing who cares let them if thats what they enjoy I mean is not that why we buy video games to do something we enjoy is it really effecting you that someone has got to 50

the choice for leveling is very very very narrow in this game I will fully agree with the OP pvp should be a option ,if you wanna group and run group dungeons only that should be a option but unfortunately those 2 were removed because apparently killing a mob that has a chance to kill you is somehow now a exploit killing a rival player is a exploit. if you think 1-50 is bad wait til you start working on your veteran ranks questing is your only option period at 450k veteran points for your 1st vet rank grinding is no longer a option getting 2 xp for a kill in a group dungeon is a complete joke, getting no vet pts per kill is a complete joke

I don't mind questing at times but the run around the mountain zone layout is really beginning to annoy especially with a topographic map that's a complete joke. the absolute icing on the cake is when you get there and its a bugged quest it begins to get really frustrating. they really need to find a middle ground instead of some knee jerk reaction nerf into uselessness basically removing it as a option

KerinKor

SadisticSavior wrote: »

OMFG how old that game got. Every character looks the same because there are only like 4 total models for each race. Since it is all gear based, and since everyone min/maxes and has the same gear, they all still look the same and also have the same abilities. The game felt like an endless grind to me.

And how does any of that make it not fun to play?

No, seriously, why doesn't being a special snowflake mean you don't like playing the game?

Grayphilosophy

KerinKor wrote: »

And how does any of that make it not fun to play?

No, seriously, why doesn't being a special snowflake mean you don't like playing the game?

It's common human behavior to desire a feeling of aknowledgement for ones individuality. But at the same time, paradoxically we have a tendency to want to fit in, to belong.

or maybe people just want to be able to feel like they're able to customize their character and playstyle to sate their creativity.

knightblaster

Singular wrote: »

Why do MMO devs/programmers, whoever, seem to always nerf too hard? I really don't understand that. It leads me to believe they 1) don't share white papers, 2) don't understand the concept of tinkering little by little to find an appropriate balance, or 3) have some bizarre culture of overreacting.

The reason is this: if you have a major water main that has blown and is flooding the streets, the first thing you do is shut off the water to stop the flood. Then, after the flood has been stopped, you figure out what repairs need to be done to the water system to fix it so that it works properly and doesn't sprout a flood again.

When things in an MMO are turning into loot fountains, what happens is that the developers turn them off, basically, so as to prevent the fountain of loot from flooding the game. Once the flood issue has been addressed, they then look at the issue and come up with a longer-term solution that involves turning it back on, but with new parameters, and they do this after internal testing. There is no time for that when the loot fountain is spewing loot everywhere and flooding the game with it. So they turn it off, first, and then come up with a fix later.

The same principle applies in other areas too -- XP fountains, clearly overpowered class mechanics, etc. If something is a glaring, blinking problem, they will turn it off before they come up with a more long-term fix so that they contain the damage in the meantime. That's what was done here.

Finally, a golden rule of MMOs is that if you want to exploit the game, play in the beta test phase, and then rush play in the early access phase before the various fountain-like exploits get turned off. There are people who do that in every MMO. I don't do it because I don't like exploits, and I don't like the beta spoiling the game for me in general, but there are many players who do betas for this precise reason, and we have them to thank for the developer reaction in terms of turning the fountains off before coming up with a longer-term fix.

Matthir

Fidelio wrote: »

Hey fellows,

After almost 9 years, i am still totally obsessed with leveling a character in World of Warcraft

I am the exact opposite of this part of your statement haha. I HATED leveling in wow with a burning passion. My sister had to level my very first toon to max level to even get me to play(BC, Quit during LICH), and we did recruit a friend to power level our other 6 characters(Cata). Don't get me wrong, I loved raiding, but that's about all I liked about that game, which is why I didn't make it too long in the grand scheme of things.

This game is very different, I'm currently VR2, no grinding, just quests and exploration. I enjoy the questing I find it very entertaining. I LOVE PVP so far, but I haven't done it much because you are right there is hardly any xp from it to make it worthwhile(you get more xp once you VR, however I can level much faster, make more $$$, and max profession questing). My goal was to wait until VR10 to start pvp, but I don't think I can hold out that long. I haven't really tried too much PVE dungeons and other stuff because there is also little incentive to do it at this point, other than a "I need a change of pace event". I'm going to experience all the content for sure, just not in the order I normally would in another MMO.

But to sum it all up, even with all the bugs and everything I am loving this game. I know alot of people are upset blah blah blah and cancelling their subs, but if you are playing this game to kick your feet up and immerse yourself in a game with your friends or random people on the interwebz, it's a damn good time.

KerinKor

knightblaster wrote: »

and we have them to thank for the developer reaction in terms of turning the fountains off before coming up with a longer-term fix.

Except the devs were too late and vast numbers of player have already benefited from the exploits and got away with it .. indeed, some of what they did was pitiful design rather that flaws .. so they'll have a huge advantage forever in terns of nett wealth, leveled crafting etc.

MysticAura

Why do people never blame the exploiters and push blame elsewhere instead. Without exploiters games would be a TON different. For that matter, so would life.

It's a horrible trend that people don't ever make people take responsibility for their own actions. No wonder they don't bother stopping, they have no one telling them no. We're told to ignore (which is acceptance btw) So systems get changed due to exploiters and it hurts the rest of us, and instead of making those people take responsibility, we complain about the change. The world is run by these people and we allow it.

crush83

Why is it so important that you level so quickly? MMOs aren't meant to be beaten in a week's time. Stop rushing to max level. You don't win anything for completing all of the game's content in a week.

Advance at the rate that the way you play dictates you advance, and stop worrying about how quickly others are advancing. Who cares how quickly others are advancing? There will always be players your level with whom you can group, PvP, and sell items.

Is your goal simply to get to end-game content as quickly as possible?

News flash. If you get to end-game content within two weeks, and beat that content within another 1-2 weeks, you're going to be running circles in your faction's stronghold, wondering what's next, for probably another 6 months while Zenimax prepares the next big content push.

I'm willing to bet in that 6 months time, you will grow impatient and start searching for a new game. You'll probably find one too since the market is over-saturated. Then you'll go to that game and zerg through it, and feel disappointed yet again.

Seriously. Ask yourself, is it really that paramount that you beat all that the game offers so quickly? Stop worrying about your level and enjoy the environment, plot, and immersion.

It's like spending $60 on a steak, and then gulping it down without taking breaths in between bites. Slow down.

KerinKor

MysticAura wrote: »

Why do people never blame the exploiters and push blame elsewhere instead. Without exploiters games would be a TON different. For that matter, so would life.

Which post are you replying to, clearly it isn't the one just above yours.

Obviously you can 'blame' the exploiters but unless you're trying to be King Canute then you should try to ensure human nature can't run amok .. ZOS did that by not implementing any anti-RMT or apparently anti-botting mechanics as part of their core design.

knightblaster

KerinKor wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

and we have them to thank for the developer reaction in terms of turning the fountains off before coming up with a longer-term fix.

Except the devs were too late and vast numbers of player have already benefited from the exploits and got away with it .. indeed, some of what they did was pitiful design rather that flaws .. so they'll have a huge advantage forever in terns of nett wealth, leveled crafting etc.

I agree that they should have turned it off sooner, but that's life. It was turned off in the first week, which was pretty fast, but ideally it should have been turned off in the transition from beta to live.

crush83

In regards to the exploiting, ask yourselves how much it really affects you in the long run. I mean, 3 months from now, do you think these guys who exploited and earned 300k gold are really going to have a huge advantage over you?

I seriously doubt it.

How about the guys who exploited to max level in 2-3 days time? Really? How does that affect you even now?

Seriously. Someone explain to me how it affects you that these clowns exploited. The only ones affected are themselves. They ruined their own experience. They haven't ruined yours.

Unless, of course, you mistakenly think the objective of the game is to be first to accomplish something.

Vladish

Shimond wrote: »

Fidelio wrote: »

After almost 9 years, i am still totally obsessed with leveling a character in World of Warcraft

Good lord, truly?

+1

All that sped up progression and newbies popping out left and right that didn't knew their classes/roles, was actually one of the main reasons that killed that game for me.

I agree that if doing same faction, going through quests may feel boring as it is very linear. But... there are three factions to choose from. Why not roll your alts in an alternative alliance, with semi-new quests/main quest?

petikozmyeb17_ESO wrote: »

They must force you to do quests because this game is not just a grindfest like most mmos this is about the story, if you don't like it...

Don't agree with forcing part, but agree with the point you are making. This is story-driven game based on a rich lore and its further development. I have no problem with skill sets having their own xp bars. The game just came out, so I am hoping/expecting for them to add more quests, side-quests, etc. down the line, live and learn.

Kyotee0071

Soul_of_Wrath wrote: »

Curly wrote: »

Fidelio wrote: »

Hey fellows,

... After almost 9 years, i am still totally obsessed with leveling a character in World of Warcraft, why? Because its easy accessible, sometimes i do pvp, most of the time dungeons and also some questing, everything offers me a decent amount of experience, i have the choice, its uncomplicated and doesn't feel like work (e.g. quest windows vs. clicking through dialogues endlessly)

Just imagine how happy you will be with this game 9 years from now. LOL

I was at launch day in WOW and I feel this game is much better than WOW was at launch. For me anyway.

It really isn't fair to compare ESO to WoW's launch, that was forever ago. ESO is a modern MMO and should be held to a higher standard.

As much as I know many on these forums just love to hate on WoW, they provide a quality product that millions of people still pay for every month. ESO is a lot of fun but is at best a niche MMO.

Edit: typo

Folks like to say "Don't compare this game to WoW's launch 10 years ago: the minute we start defending the launch of this game compared World of Warcraft's.

Yet the same folks love to compare what World of Warcraft offers in leveling choices and content that has been ongoing for 10 years - vs - A brand new MMORPG's content released 12 days ago.

Explain to me how that argument works again?

ESO blows WoW out of the water when WoW was 11 days old. I was there for WoW's launch. I played for 7 years and had fun with the game. I can tell you that WoW was nothing at launch like it is today.

The level grind was very slow from 1-60 in the game, and very limiting. You could quest, run dungeons, or do one raid that required 40 people. Those were your only choices.

The content was very limiting at launch. And a lot of things listed below did not even get added until the very first Expansion (3yrs Later)

At launch World of Warcraft offered: -going from memory, bear with me

-Only 2 continents to explore
-Only 3 major cities in the game
-Only a level level cap of 60
-Only One 40 man dungeon to run at endgame
-No heroic mode dungeons
-No queuing for dungeons (you had to form your own groups and run/summon)
-No Flying Mounts
-No Honor points
-No Battlegrounds
-No Arenas
-No PVP gear - and the game had very limited armors (everyone looked alike)
-No Blood Elves
-No Draenei
-No Pandas
-No Goblins
-No Death Knight Class
-No Monk Class
-No Jewelry Crafting
-No Inscription
-No experience for gathering tradeskill nodes
-No Dual Talent
-No changing talent builds
-No Scenearios
-No Timeless Isle to gear up quickly
-No Proving Grounds

I'm sure there are a lot more things but I'll stop here. Not one of the above listed items were in World of Warcraft at launch. As you can see it was a shell of a game compared to what it has turned into over the last 10 years and 4 expansions.

Bottom line (opinion incoming) is that ESO 12 days into it's launch is heads and shoulders over what World of Warcraft was at it's launch 10 years ago - as it should be.

MrMunky

Leveling is for sure slower then it could be if you gained even a little bit in pvp and dungeons. On the other hand I'm leveling fine from area to area with hardly doing 50% or less of the map. But I hardly play pvp and dungeons because of this. Which to me seems like a problem. We shouldnt feel like we need to avoid these areas of the game pre50.

knightblaster

Initial level cap in WoW was 60, by the way. And the initial raid required attunements which took time and provided "content" (not good content in my opinion, but content). It was, however, slow to level by today's standards, because today's standards have been set by Blizzard increasing the leveling speed for everything but the latest expac -- they have done that for years, and many millions of players were only exposed to *that* modified leveling speed in the earlier levels than the initial one it had at launch, so it formed their own expectations about what an appropriate leveling speed is, until the very end, and therefore other MMOs have had to follow suit.

crush83

Slower leveling means less people sitting at the end of the game crying for content to be released quicker. It's a smart move for any MMO to enforce slow leveling when they first start rolling out content.

Kyotee0071

knightblaster wrote: »

Initial level cap in WoW was 60, by the way.

I stand corrected. Thank you. I was going from memory because that was a long time ago . Editing that in my post now.

Stautmeister

Wow level cap was 60. First raid was UBRS, not MC. and was a 10 man raid.
There wernt enough quests to level so you needed to grind.
Mounts were retardedly expansive which means youd go anywhere in 0 speed.
Progress in end game came from gear, Raid bosses dropped 1-4 pieces for later 40 people.
This forced extremely slow to non existing progress for the average player.

ESO is better in nearly every way.
The thing i do dislike is that im all in on a single character, with WoW i could play both factions and enjoy 2 completely different tales.
If i want to get my character to vet 10 i actually have seen all content in game, making alting nothing more than creating a character that has acces to 16 different skills.
This means the replayability is actually pretty low.

Kyotee0071

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

Wow level cap was 60. First raid was UBRS, not MC. and was a 10 man raid.
There wernt enough quests to level so you needed to grind.
Mounts were retardedly expansive which means youd go anywhere in 0 speed.
Progress in end game came from gear, Raid bosses dropped 1-4 pieces for later 40 people.
This forced extremely slow to non existing progress for the average player.

ESO is better in nearly every way.

The thing i do dislike is that im all in on a single character, with WoW i could play both factions and enjoy 2 completely different tales.
If i want to get my character to vet 10 i actually have seen all content in game, making alting nothing more than creating a character that has acces to 16 different skills.
This means the replayability is actually pretty low.

You know that is a great comment about once you reach rank 10 on one character, you have seen all the stories of all 3 factions. I can see that being a "pita" to repeat on alts.

Thankfully in this game you can make one character with enough builds to cover different play styles. I'm a sucker for alts though Lol. So I'll suffer through until more content/more ways to level up get added.