Does anyone think crafting was purposely made difficult to max out to keep subscriptions?

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

incorrect. Let's say you and me are both level 50

LOL! The original premise did not assume we were both already level 50!

No one starts researching crap at level 50. Anyone with even a passing interest in crafting will have already been researching it long before that. By the time I am level 50 I expect to have most of my traits already researched.

glamorousskies wrote: »

I log in for an hour a day and research my traits for my gear, you're pvping, pveing, all this stuff. After those two months are up, we will be in the same spot

No we won't...I'll have tons of tempers that you don't have (because I will have been deconstructing and refining stuff to get them), and be able to actually craft stuff with my skills.

I will be able to actually make stuff...you'll have traits researched and be unable to actually make anything above level 14 with them. Because all you have done is researched. Research does not = levels. Researching traits is not going to level you in your profession.

Research is not an "I Win" button for crafting. It's one component.

Jadeviper1974

If it was designed that way, then it is the most .... I'm gonna go with "interesting" stratify that I have heard for player retention. Seeing as how most players aren't going; "Ohhhh, crafting!" or "If it doesn't have a crafting system that is complicated and lengthy I am not playing."

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

So you think it's okay to take about 100 days (assuming you play every day and log in and have all the armors with traits available for research) non stop, to be able to max crafting?

It will be a lot more than 100 days. And yeah, I do. For reasons I've already explained, but I will explain them again:

1) It forces crafters to specialize. Because everyone won't be able to master everything.

2) This specialization will give them value. Because their services will be more in demand.

3) It will completely undermine twinkers and powerlevellers, because they cannot "buy" their way to mastery. This will, in turn, feed into #2 (crafters having more value).

glamorousskies wrote: »

I for one, do not agree with it taking 100 days and theres nothing you can do about it to get max gear. That is insane. I mean yeah hard work. But no, i would geniunely make fun of people for trying that hard if they have max gear.

They won't have max gear. At least not gear they made themselves.

The best items in the game will not come from drops, and will not be crafted. it will be dropped gear that is improved through crafting. So you will need both. You will not get Legendary items as drops. And you will not get crafted items with as good specs as drops. Crafting is what will allow the best drops to become "Legendary" items. Those will be the best gear in the game.

So crafters can't just make the best gear...they are still dependent on drops. And Questers can't just "find" the best gear...they need crafters to improve what they find. IMO this system is genius. It covers a lot of bases and makes crafters useful without making them vital.

glamorousskies

SadisticSavior wrote: »

glamorousskies wrote: »

incorrect. Let's say you and me are both level 50

LOL! The original premise did not assume we were both already level 50!

No one starts researching crap at level 50. Anyone with even a passing interest in crafting will have already been researching it long before that. By the time I am level 50 I expect to have most of my traits already researched.

glamorousskies wrote: »

I log in for an hour a day and research my traits for my gear, you're pvping, pveing, all this stuff. After those two months are up, we will be in the same spot

No we won't...I'll have tons of tempers that you don't have (because I will have been deconstructing and refining stuff to get them), and be able to actually craft stuff with my skills.

I will be able to actually make stuff...you'll have traits researched and be unable to actually make anything above level 14 with them. Because all you have done is researched. Research does not = levels. Researching traits is not going to level you in your profession.

Research is not an "I Win" button for crafting. It's one component.

what? do you realize how easy it is to get level 50 crafting to make the stuff. and you having all those tempers, i will too, because i'm level 50. i wasn't just leveling. i was deconstructing too. i'll have tempers too.also i'll be able to make everything, cause my clothing tree will be maxed out. i'll be level 50 and have over 200 skillpoints from quests, leveling, and skyshards. you will too. so i will be able to make the items maxed out.

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

what? do you realize how easy it is to get level 50 crafting to make the stuff. and you having all those tempers, i will too, because i'm level 50. i wasn't just leveling. i was deconstructing too. i'll have tempers too.

You won't be doing that if all you're doing is logging in to research. You just proved my point. You'd have to actually be playing the game.

And someone who is only playing the game an hour a day will have far less materials than you, and will advance more slowly than you. researching is not an "I Win" button. It's only one part.

glamorousskies

SadisticSavior wrote: »

glamorousskies wrote: »

what? do you realize how easy it is to get level 50 crafting to make the stuff. and you having all those tempers, i will too, because i'm level 50. i wasn't just leveling. i was deconstructing too. i'll have tempers too.

51.

You won't be doing that if all you're doing is logging in to research. You just proved my point. You'd have to actually be playing the game.

And someone who is only playing the game an hour a day will have far less materials than you, and will advance more slowly than you. researching is not an "I Win" button. It's only one part.

[/quote]

i know, but we'll both be level 50. meaning we had to do things to get level 50... how do you not get that. i'll have a lot of high level mats from up till then getting to level 50. and we'll both have all the skills in the appropriate skill line (clothing for example) because we're... what's that? level 50. that's right.

glamorousskies

SadisticSavior wrote: »

glamorousskies wrote: »

So you think it's okay to take about 100 days (assuming you play every day and log in and have all the armors with traits available for research) non stop, to be able to max crafting?

It will be a lot more than 100 days. And yeah, I do. For reasons I've already explained, but I will explain them again:

1) It forces crafters to specialize. Because everyone won't be able to master everything.

2) This specialization will give them value. Because their services will be more in demand.

3) It will completely undermine twinkers and powerlevellers, because they cannot "buy" their way to mastery. This will, in turn, feed into #2 (crafters having more value).

glamorousskies wrote: »

I for one, do not agree with it taking 100 days and theres nothing you can do about it to get max gear. That is insane. I mean yeah hard work. But no, i would geniunely make fun of people for trying that hard if they have max gear.

They won't have max gear. At least not gear they made themselves.

The best items in the game will not come from drops, and will not be crafted. it will be dropped gear that is improved through crafting. So you will need both. You will not get Legendary items as drops. And you will not get crafted items with as good specs as drops. Crafting is what will allow the best drops to become "Legendary" items. Those will be the best gear in the game.

So crafters can't just make the best gear...they are still dependent on drops. And Questers can't just "find" the best gear...they need crafters to improve what they find. IMO this system is genius. It covers a lot of bases and makes crafters useful without making them vital.

i do appreciate you and others appreciating the system. But it's going to get real old real quick. Believe what you want. I gaurantee alot of people dislike it. It literally is bugging the crap out of me. I am geniunely thinking about not resubbing because of this reason. I simply don't want to wait oh so long to get max gear. one month? that's okay. You all act like also once you max out that's it. It's not like you can't make another char, or discover areas, or pvp, or anything......... It's just crazy stupid long and i'm not devoting large portions of my life to max out in a fantasy mmo. Pretty hardcore lame.

clocksstoppe

have you even looked at craftable set effects? THEY ARE GARBAGE.

Dropped ones arent incredibly useful either but they are still better.


Your complaint would be well founded, IF the sets from crafting were good. At the moment crafting is USELESS outside of upgrading purple to yellow

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

i know, but we'll both be level 50. meaning we had to do things to get level 50... how do you not get that. i'll have a lot of high level mats from up till then getting to level 50.

So what exactly are you complaining about? How are you at any disadvantage if I am doing just as much as you are? LOL

Your original argument was that Researching meant that someone who logged in for a fraction of the time would do just as well as you...that is clearly not the case. All they will equal you at is researched traits.

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

i do appreciate you and others appreciating the system. But it's going to get real old real quick.

I have played lots of other MMOs and have not seen a better system yet. I like that there is no way for people with high-level-friends or gold to game the system.

glamorousskies wrote: »

Believe what you want. I gaurantee alot of people dislike it.

So what? Let them dislike it. The alternatives are worse, so I stand to lose nothing.

glamorousskies wrote: »

You all act like also once you max out that's it. It's not like you can't make another char, or discover areas, or pvp, or anything......... It's just crazy stupid long and i'm not devoting large portions of my life to max out in a fantasy mmo. Pretty hardcore lame.

Well, the good news is that there are tons (TONS) of other MMOs that are doing exactly what you want. So you have plenty of options.

We don't need yet another powerleveller/twinker crafting paradise. We already have dozens. Our quota for those is full.

Kodiak

Provisioning can be maxed out in 3 hours if you have the recipes.

Alchemy was done in a few hours of gathering as well, mostly for water.

Clothier, Blacksmithing and Woodworking once you hit Veteran Ranks skyrocket because you easily gain thousands and thousands of XP breaking down even common white items (in fact not only do I have 40/40/40 but my alt has 40/40/40 as well).

Enchanting is the only one that takes a significant amount of time and that can be bypassed if you know what you're doing with it and today I went from like 19 to 30 pretty quick in it.


Really don't see the significant time investment here beyond the research timers and most 8 research set bonuses are "okay" at best.

Ptoastman

Make something take a long time, people complain Zenimax is money grubbing. Make something really easy, people complain they have nothing to do and quit.

Diakos

glamorousskies wrote: »

i do appreciate you and others appreciating the system. But it's going to get real old real quick. Believe what you want. I gaurantee alot of people dislike it. It literally is bugging the crap out of me. I am geniunely thinking about not resubbing because of this reason. I simply don't want to wait oh so long to get max gear. one month? that's okay. You all act like also once you max out that's it. It's not like you can't make another char, or discover areas, or pvp, or anything......... It's just crazy stupid long and i'm not devoting large portions of my life to max out in a fantasy mmo. Pretty hardcore lame.

Long story short, this is an MMO not a singleplayer game meant to be torn though in a week.

There are hundreds of games better suited for getting "100% completion", this one is a MMO and one designed to take a while, if the mechanics grate on you, you're not the target demographic.

Oevaag_Bur

glamorousskies wrote: »

.

I noticed eso's subs were lower then they expected( i love the game, but it's true).

Source please ? Or are you basing this on the retail estimated sales ? The ones that don't include figures from Zenimax.

netgear047

Try playing eve online and then tell me how long it takes to get your skills up.

Getorix

I really hope Zennimax doesn't bend to the will of the post wow I want it all in 2 weeks mmo crowd.

I think they've done a great job of mixing a modern and an old school mmo and I hope they give it a chance before caving into the kids who want it all now and will quit as soon as it is given to them.

MysticAura

I love that it takes effort and time to work up. In this day of people crying out to have everything instantly with no effort. Crafting costs me nothing except time and effort. I get all my own materials, I don't buy them. I salvage all my things and put points where they are most needed in order to make nice things. I see nothing but good things about this process. Effort = Reward..it's a good thing.

Rpalmer2

netgear047 wrote: »

Try playing eve online and then tell me how long it takes to get your skills up.

Oh man do I agree.

Oh look Cruise Missles V .... oh wait going to take me 42 days to get. Mine as well get it started and back to killing stuff while it does that.

It's funny that people are complaining about traits in this game. When you look at Eve it is recommended by alot of people to not even do anything your first 2 months in the game when you are first starting. Log in queue up skills, log off.

ESO Traits are done right and the time is no that bad once you start unlocking the skills to reduce the time needed.

Brennan

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

netgear047 wrote: »

Try playing eve online and then tell me how long it takes to get your skills up.

Oh man do I agree.

Oh look Cruise Missles V .... oh wait going to take me 42 days to get. Mine as well get it started and back to killing stuff while it does that.

It's funny that people are complaining about traits in this game. When you look at Eve it is recommended by alot of people to not even do anything your first 2 months in the game when you are first starting. Log in queue up skills, log off.

ESO Traits are done right and the time is no that bad once you start unlocking the skills to reduce the time needed.

I also just finished Cruise Missile V before I unsubbed to play ESO. Also gave away my Golem to some Gallente (I still have a deep seeded hatred towards those drone-loving, ***-pushing, freedom fanatics).

7 days to research my sixth trait on a robe? Meh, whatever.

Here's a hint: It researches in REAL TIME. You don't have to stand there looking at it. You don't even have to log in. You can go kill stuff, explore, craft other stuff, start that research and then go watch The Walking Dead on Netflix.

Alpha_Protocol

The "51 days" you mentioned was to research all traits for one item. So it's actually much longer than you think.

I'm glad it's not easy. Finally crafting actually means something.

Rpalmer2

Brennan wrote: »

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

netgear047 wrote: »

Try playing eve online and then tell me how long it takes to get your skills up.

Oh man do I agree.

Oh look Cruise Missles V .... oh wait going to take me 42 days to get. Mine as well get it started and back to killing stuff while it does that.

It's funny that people are complaining about traits in this game. When you look at Eve it is recommended by alot of people to not even do anything your first 2 months in the game when you are first starting. Log in queue up skills, log off.

ESO Traits are done right and the time is no that bad once you start unlocking the skills to reduce the time needed.

I also just finished Cruise Missile V before I unsubbed to play ESO. Also gave away my Golem to some Gallente (I still have a deep seeded hatred towards those drone-loving, ***-pushing, freedom fanatics).

7 days to research my sixth trait on a robe? Meh, whatever.

Here's a hint: It researches in REAL TIME. You don't have to stand there looking at it. You don't even have to log in. You can go kill stuff, explore, craft other stuff, start that research and then go watch The Walking Dead on Netflix.

There is a difference between us and some other people who have not played other games were skills or other things can take months, weeks, days. We are used to it and we like it.

I just don't like being spoon feed skills, traits, etc. There is a sense of pride for completing something.

Brennan

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

Brennan wrote: »

Rpalmer2 wrote: »

netgear047 wrote: »

Try playing eve online and then tell me how long it takes to get your skills up.

Oh man do I agree.

Oh look Cruise Missles V .... oh wait going to take me 42 days to get. Mine as well get it started and back to killing stuff while it does that.

It's funny that people are complaining about traits in this game. When you look at Eve it is recommended by alot of people to not even do anything your first 2 months in the game when you are first starting. Log in queue up skills, log off.

ESO Traits are done right and the time is no that bad once you start unlocking the skills to reduce the time needed.

I also just finished Cruise Missile V before I unsubbed to play ESO. Also gave away my Golem to some Gallente (I still have a deep seeded hatred towards those drone-loving, ***-pushing, freedom fanatics).

7 days to research my sixth trait on a robe? Meh, whatever.

Here's a hint: It researches in REAL TIME. You don't have to stand there looking at it. You don't even have to log in. You can go kill stuff, explore, craft other stuff, start that research and then go watch The Walking Dead on Netflix.

There is a difference between us and some other people who have not played other games were skills or other things can take months, weeks, days. We are used to it and we like it.

I just don't like being spoon feed skills, traits, etc. There is a sense of pride for completing something.

Completely agree. I wonder if people have ever considered why food/drink does not sell in guild stores. Could it be that everyone can do provisioning, get ti to level 50, maybe throw a few points into it?

If the same held true of the other professions, no one would be able to sell anything because everyone would have all traits now and there would be no "good" crafters, just a bunch of mediocre ones.

DewiMorgan

I am startled and delighted at how many people in this thread seem to really get why truly mastering every crafting arc needs to be a decent amount of work to achieve.
My main is a crafting character, and I am enjoying it a lot. As a single-player PVE player, I really didn't expect to enjoy the crafting nearly as much as I do. It's surprised me.

If it were just a quick thing, it wouldn't have nearly the appeal. I felt *cheated* when maxing provisioning was so trivial. But at least there are tons and tons of recipes I still haven't collected...

DewiMorgan

I like how the game is balanced so it doesn't excessively favor those who can game 24/7 - they get a significant advantage over those who can only play once a day, but it's not *completely overwhelming*. Even those who can only play on weekends will not be completely without progress.

Rach71

I have played many-many MMOS (I remember the the common term was GMUD or Grapical Multi User Dungeon)

In UO you had only so many skill points (700 i think) each of the like 50 skills was ranked from 1-100, do at best you could only "MAX" 7 skills. And the skills intertwined, for instance blacksmithing quality was affected by how well your smelting skill was, and smelting was affected on how well your mining skill was. not to mention the ability to appraise a weapon was in part bound to your skill with the weapon and you blacksmith skill.

Long story short there were people who all they did was mine, smelt and craft (and repair) weapons and armor for others, and the dedicated one were sought after.

Since then companies have gone down the casual path crafting, is not a profession that a player works at, it is a pastime to support your flavor of warrior (loosely used for one who goes off to fight, as opposed to merchant or crafter). With that philosophy crafting has become to be seen as a lesser form of gear progression. Something so trivial that it need be a simple task to max out, I mean after all raiding (a warriors activity) should be the only source of endgame gear.

I say that facetiously, but in other games raiding is the only endgame focus, and what "endgame" craftables there the patterns are "raid drop" only and the materials are "BOP Raid drops" and yet somehow still inferior to the gear on the fire breathing loot pinata because somehow "crafting is easy-mode welfare epics"?

Why is that the case? Well for one with a warrior centric focus game being a warrior, doing the warrior thing is naturally more rewarded, it takes TIME to wait for that loot drop. It takes TIME to get into the right guild. It takes TIME to accumulate DKP.

See the key word "time"; IMHO for crafting to be considered a legitimate source of endgame gear without resorting to to gimmicks of locking the plans and materials to raiding then crafting needs to take time to be the best.

Again all of this is just my opinion, take it for what it is worth.

glamorousskies

DewiMorgan wrote: »

I like how the game is balanced so it doesn't excessively favor those who can game 24/7 - they get a significant advantage over those who can only play once a day, but it's not *completely overwhelming*. Even those who can only play on weekends will not be completely without progress.

No it makes it to where literally, playing 24/7 endgame would give you NO advantage. How did you not comprehend what i was saying. Let me elaborate.-

In order to get the best set gear (8 traits researched) it would take at least like 2-3 months minimum. Now, to the people saying "have you even seen the trait gear bonuses? they are garbage" that is partially true. They are not that great, but they are good enough to give a good bonus having all of them. Definitely noticeable, also add that bonus onto adding traits and upgrading the armor and enchanting them, you have a VERY VERY VERY strong piece. NOW, back to my point.

Let's say i play 24/7 and you play for an hour a day. We are both level 50, alot of content completed. We are both working on crafting. We have alot of gear and items already that we could use for making our max gear, we just need to research the traits, that's all. I click my trait and research it, takes a couple days. You click yours and then go pvp or something all day. Guess what, by tommorow we both will be the same distance from maxing out our crafting.

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

Let's say i play 24/7 and you play for an hour a day. We are both level 50, alot of content completed. We are both working on crafting. We have alot of gear and items already that we could use for making our max gear, we just need to research the traits, that's all. I click my trait and research it, takes a couple days. You click yours and then go pvp or something all day. Guess what, by tommorow we both will be the same distance from maxing out our crafting.

So what? What exactly are you losing?

If your argument is "OMG casual player can get the same stuff dedicated players can get" That is completely wrong...you just said the other guy has done all the same content and is at level 50 and is levelling his crafting skills just like you are. He's not just pressing "research" and leaving.

In your specific and very narrow example, it is true. But that will not apply to the vast majority of players in this game. Your example applies to a tiny minority. Most people with even a passing interest in crafting are NOT going to wait until level 50 with all skills maxed to start Researching traits. That is ridiculous. LOL

Torasi

In my opinion one of the reasons that I love Elder Scrolls so much is because of the amazing amount of depth that a player can go into when it comes to crafting things such as armor, potions, enchants, food, and the lot. I think it could be true in some sense that they would make things more difficult so that people will continue to play the game, then again is that not a good thing? I think that the variety that ESO offers is wonderful and can only be seen as a good thing for us players. We pay good money (sometimes a questionable amount) to play this game and I would be disappointed if the game didn't offer me my money's worth of gameplay. With crafting, it clearly in all honesty is going to be a never ending in game market of trading and creating. It adds a whole new level of diversity to MMO's and makes it much more worth investing into. To blame the difficulty of crafting on game creators want for money is ironic in every way considering that we are playing something that they crafted to sell for money, and it is quite a difficult market, much more difficult then the market that they created in their game.

grahamz1b14_ESO

glamorousskies wrote: »

Opinions?

So it's hard and time consuming to be the best at crafting? Good. That's what makes it rewarding. That's what will keep anyone not serious about crafting from maxing it out. And guess what? Crafting is fun for some of us. THAT is what will keep people crafting, and NOT what you describe. REMEMBER that you can also purchase items, you DON'T have to be the one crafting it if you don't want to. Instead of crafting, sell your crafting mats, and don't bother with research, sell the researchable items instead. You'll have the money to contract a person who actually enjoys crafting to make that perfect item.

The goal of any business is to stay in business, and maintain a customer base. Your realization that ESO is a business is what I would label a 'Duh' moment.

DragonMagus

Again i return to this useless topic. Haven't read anymore after first 2-3 comments after my first post here ,the new wall of text in south but let me say again what most of us real gamers seem to think here.(based on my own experiences in MMORPGs and a few of the posts on this topic i have read)
Only very very VERY stupid people accuse a mmorpg (that they continue to play btw=> contradict themselves ) that it has "no content" by saying increased crafting stretches it's game time and therefor subscriptions.

People,MMORPGs are competitive
Do you know where Player vs Player in gaming,comes from?
Heard of Tetris, & other oldies but goldies games (SEGA Games for example,battle tanks/battle city,super mario,bomberman,duckhunt,mortal kombat,kontra,teenage mutant ninja turtles,street fighter, Mappy :X remember how much Mappy rocked)
=> HIGHSCORES PEOPLE,FREAKIN' ..HIGHSCORES ! Competition,Competitive. Let this seep into your feeble minds,all the spice girls who want freakin CRAFTING in freakin MMORPGs to BASICALLY be easy for everyone stupid enough to think it sucks/it's boring/CBA(can't be arsed)/et cetera,bla bla.

Forgot what game developer staff quotes had one that said somethin like(i think it was some Mass Effect game dev-ing staff team quotes & jokes from their intranet etc idk that i found randomly on some site ),if they would add a free Hat that gives (forgot the exact quote uff xD and hehe Easter after-party party so i'm beer'd xD )..some bonuses idk, "The players would complain about the color of the hat "
(Edit: or another example similar to the color of the In-Game-Hat one , a famous bloggers team from my country had one episode of one of their nice shows,where a robot bartender tells one of the main chars that he's got a new type of booze from the black market,and pulls out a cocktail-shaker with a transparent infinity symbol on it,and the booze clearly showed that it replenishes the Vodka after he poured in a glass... WHAT do you think the robot char ,the stupid&drunken' masta' stereotype parody heh - WHAT DO YOU THINK he saiz? " Cool,give me two of them !" at minute 00 and 57 seconds https://youtube.com/watch?v=K8r7l290T3o&t=0m57s )
THAT IS BASICALLY IT This topic OP (and those who support it's "ideea"/"theory" if it can even be called such) and all the similar topics where people just complain caz life/certain game(s) beat them too much(And ofc the results are well,varying on the occasion, BOREDOM Trolling/Ignorance/More options/More options all together).Hey,we all got problems,more or less,here and there,now and then,some more than others.But we don't all pour stupid ideeas and want them to be implemented in very epic games now,do we?

This ain't some single player game where you can find glitches/workarrounds for fast crafting since you aren't "really into crafting" ,so DON'T FREAKIN WASTE ALL OF OUR TIME BY ASKING FOR SOME !!!!!!!!!!!! I'm surprised you Spice Girls even think your topic "ideea" and all the similar ones would even matter,in the first place, LOL ,i highly doubt THese probably have the highest chance and/or speed to be DIS-RE-GAR-DED for good reason too -.- pffff.At least i for one,get slightly irritated and HIGHLY amused of these concepts some "gamers" (more like casuals & amateurs ) have.