Does anyone think crafting was made so long to max out to keep subscriptions?

glamorousskies

Hear me out, in a lot of mmo's if you are very skilled and play a "FAIR" amount you can get "maxed out" then you can just pvp, make a new char, craft, whatever.

However in eso, in order to technically make the BEST gear you need to have eight traits researched on each item you want. This would equate to approximately 64 traits.Traits can take up to 2 days to research MINUS the 15% bonus from the crafting ability to research quicker and a couple at a time. I saw some guy who calculated everything and said it would take 51 days to get a maxed set. This is also assuming you log in and have every item available for the traits. This is because the BEST SET GEAR in eso requires eight traits to be crafted.

Why so long? You can't avoid that 51 days. You HAVE to do that at a minimum. Being good enough at pvp won't work. Being a skilled player and killing that boss won't work. You gotta keep a sub for at least two months to max out.

I noticed eso's subs were lower then they expected( i love the game, but it's true). I feel like this is a VERY subtle thing they did on their part to keep people playing. Frankly after 51 days of killing the same mobs and buying and doing the same thing to get the best gear i would absolutely get bored. For sure.

Opinions?

Thralgaf

How do you know the sub amount? Just curious. Can you supply any data to support this?

Dalexx

To be fair to ESO and any game that has a subscription. You have many players who want long grinds to be the best of the best. Many would argue that we've gotten a bit spoiled by being max level in a week. Should we really expect to be able to craft the best gear in the game only after 2 weeks of playing?

I understand your argument. If I choose to power grind my way through professions should I not have that right? I'm not a big fan of any kind of gated system. It looks really suspicious in a subscription based game to drag out things for months.

In this case, I don't think ZOS is doing it purely to force subscriptions on people. I think they wanted to make their game and a game that had a fair amount o depth to it and that means we can't do everything we want as fast as we want.

Will that model work with the majority of consumers? I'm thinking not.

Capt_Lee_Adama2000b16_ESO

in my honest opinion i honestly dont mind it taking a while to be "the best" if it was really simple to do it in less than a few days/weeks then everyone would be the best at it and it would de-value the profession immensely thus prices would plumet and would feel like a waste of time if everyone else could easily just get to be the best at doing what you are doing.

daslush_ESO

I miss the old school mmos that take a year + to max out crafting at moderate game play rates and I despair at the crafting rates that modern mmos have. This is a somewhat refreshing return to "challenge" even though I could wish that crafting "failures" would have been implemented more broadly than what is currently available.

For crafting to be credible in any mmo it must not allow every single player to cap out easily or instantaneously. For crafting to be relevant at end game in any fashion beyond just supplying starter gear it must be challenging. Just as challenging as obtaining BiS raid gear or BiS pvp gear (same gear with different traits in ESO).

EramTheLiar

Two months is a long time? Two months to get to the point where you can have a fully-optimized set of epic gear that you built yourself seems pretty short to me. Also, you don't have to have all eight traits researched for your gear if you already know what traits you want on what item, so you can shave some time off there.

Catches_the_Sun

You'll have more fun in Cyrodiil with the 8-trait sets than you will with the 6-trait sets? IMO, since all Alliances will be getting their crafters maxed out at the same time, this is a non-issue as it relates to your viability to compete. If you're not having fun in AvA now then I don't think you ever will. As for me, I'm having a blast.

To say that PvP skill doesn't matter is just ridiculous. Which 8-trait 5-item set is so overpowering that you must have it to enjoy yourself?

I'm surprised to already see complaints that it's going to take 2 months to "max out" characters. It should take much longer imo.

Zershar_Vemod

Because ESO isn't supposed to be a "hand me everything with no effort" type of MMO....

temjiu

EramTheLiar wrote: »

Two months is a long time? Two months to get to the point where you can have a fully-optimized set of epic gear that you built yourself seems pretty short to me. Also, you don't have to have all eight traits researched for your gear if you already know what traits you want on what item, so you can shave some time off there.

this. you prioritize which ones you want. example: I don't see many hardcore raiders or PvP players putting "+ exploration exp" on their gear. after that, its based on what you play. if your into tanking, you'll probably prioritize armor bonus, defensive stats on weapons, magik return, etc. most players will probably focus on about 30-50% of their research categories on average. and due to the nature of this system, that will be the fastest slots to research as well.

so really for your average player it will be a month or so at the most...people are already buying and trading green items with their desired bonuses to prioritize their crafting...im sure most the min-maxers will have exactly the bonuses they want very shortly here.

I personally think that their purpose in this approach is to provide a mechanic to crafting without making it too detailed or developer intensive to manage. since crafting is usually a time based thing (how long can you stand sitting in town pressing a button to craft daggers?), the easiest way to make crafting meaningful is to make the best stuff...take longer.

This isn't to say that I enjoy that mechanic. there are far better designs out there. but this was most assuredly one of the easiest approaches they could use to add depth to the system. and when your on a budget and under time constraints, easy can be good from a developer standpoint.

JoxerHD

Why is this in the guide section.
Nothing to do with guides whatsoever.

Nox_Aeterna

I dont understand OP , why do you need to know all 8? I thought you could add only 1/equip.

You can just focus on the best ones , which lets be fair , there are better picks and worse picks , i mean , why did you spend a research in "Sturdy" for example?

If you could add ALL 8 in your item , then i would agree with you.

Laerian

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I dont understand OP , why do you need to know all 8? I thought you could add only 1/equip.

You can just focus on the best ones , which lets be fair , there are better picks and worse picks , i mean , why did you spend a research in "Sturdy" for example?

If you could add ALL 8 in your item , then i would agree with you.

He's talking about sets, some sets require 8 traits researched to be crafted

To be honest OP, I think people won't stay subbed because this. By the contrary, these mechanics probably will drive away many people that don't need another "job"; this people need to understand that we are players not chinese slaves.

By the way, those "spoon feeding" trolling attempts really get old. I don't see people asking for the "I win" button here but reasonable time sinks.

Nox_Aeterna

Laerian wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I dont understand OP , why do you need to know all 8? I thought you could add only 1/equip.

You can just focus on the best ones , which lets be fair , there are better picks and worse picks , i mean , why did you spend a research in "Sturdy" for example?

If you could add ALL 8 in your item , then i would agree with you.

He's talking about sets, some sets require 8 traits researched to be crafted

To be honest OP, I think people won't stay subbed because this. By the contrary, these mechanics probably will drive away many people that don't need another "job"; this people need to understand that we are players not chinese slaves.

By the way, those "spoon feeding" trolling attempts really get old. I don't see people asking for the "I win" button here but reasonable time sinks.

Ic , i had no idea , then yeah , maybe it is too much , i would not really consider this a time sink , i mean , you pretty much just leave it there doing the research, i would call it more a try to get more sub money , like the horse thing , takes 5 mins a day , but would take you near 2 months to get it dont anyway.

Laerian

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Laerian wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I dont understand OP , why do you need to know all 8? I thought you could add only 1/equip.

You can just focus on the best ones , which lets be fair , there are better picks and worse picks , i mean , why did you spend a research in "Sturdy" for example?

If you could add ALL 8 in your item , then i would agree with you.

He's talking about sets, some sets require 8 traits researched to be crafted

To be honest OP, I think people won't stay subbed because this. By the contrary, these mechanics probably will drive away many people that don't need another "job"; this people need to understand that we are players not chinese slaves.

By the way, those "spoon feeding" trolling attempts really get old. I don't see people asking for the "I win" button here but reasonable time sinks.

Ic , i had no idea , then yeah , maybe it is too much , i would not really consider this a time sink , i mean , you pretty much just leave it there doing the research, i would call it more a try to get more sub money , like the horse thing , takes 5 mins a day , but would take you near 2 months to get it dont anyway.

They are time sinks because as a crafter if I want to craft the best sets I need to spend time focusing in research those traits as soon as possible. This mean getting the items for research, assign inventory space for them, scheduled logins, and probably taking notes or using some addon to be warned when the researchs are done.

It could be better if we could put at least one item/per research slot in queue (the same with horse feed). It would be more efficient without the feeling of punching a time clock.

Stautmeister

I like the system, it means the most dedicated crafters are able to create the big sets first. personally i just do all traits of a single piece before continuing to allow me to not have to check every single trait of the items i dont have but only have to worry about a single item. Below vr 10 crafting and upgrading is not worth it anyway.

ElChristo

They made crafting this way to try milk as much money out of you? 2 months? One of which you get with the game? They made crafting this way to drain a whopping £9 out of you?

I'm sounding like a big ol' meanie, but if you're not willing to spend at LEAST 2 months playing a game such as this, you're in the wrong genre. I've spent years playing a single mmorpg. They aren't games you complete. You just keep getting better and better.

I like this system. You spend enough time in PVP, you can become an Emperor. You spend enough time in PVE, you can become a dragon slayer. You spend enough time crafting, you can become a Daedalus.

AreoHotah

Oh believe me it takes mote than 51 days

Zeeed

BEST GEAR ??
Did You even seen how crap are those set bonuses ?? You are much beter off with using 2x3set bonus than those crap 8 trait ones !!!

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

Hear me out, in a lot of mmo's if you are very skilled and play a "FAIR" amount you can get "maxed out" then you can just pvp, make a new char, craft, whatever.

Yeah, I am bored of those MMOs. Thats why I don't play them anymore.

glamorousskies wrote: »

However in eso, in order to technically make the BEST gear you need to have eight traits researched on each item you want.

No you don't. You can just buy it from a player who has those traits researched. You don't need to craft anything in this game yourself to have the best gear.

Of course, you'll need gold. But it is like that in other MMOs as well. You just have more options in ESO.

glamorousskies wrote: »

This would equate to approximately 64 traits.Traits can take up to 2 days to research MINUS the 15% bonus from the crafting ability to research quicker and a couple at a time. I saw some guy who calculated everything and said it would take 51 days to get a maxed set.

LOL "51 days"...boy are you in for a shock.

It takes about 65 days to max out 8 traits for just a single item.

glamorousskies wrote: »

Why so long? You can't avoid that 51 days. You HAVE to do that at a minimum. Being good enough at pvp won't work. Being a skilled player and killing that boss won't work. You gotta keep a sub for at least two months to max out.

Yep.

It also means you will not be able to Twink your way to the top, and you won't be able to buy your way to the top. It's awesome.

glamorousskies wrote: »

I noticed eso's subs were lower then they expected (i love the game, but it's true).

So what? Eve was never hugely popular, and they are still around after over a decade.

glamorousskies wrote: »

I feel like this is a VERY subtle thing they did on their part to keep people playing.

It's working. It will keep me playing, that's for sure. I feel like my skill will actually matter in the End Game. I'll be able to do things with crafting that every other damn player in the game won't also be able to do.

glamorousskies wrote: »

Frankly after 51 days of killing the same mobs and buying and doing the same thing to get the best gear i would absolutely get bored. For sure.

There are lots of options out there for you. There are no shortage of MMOs that cater to what you are asking for. So there is no need to change this one.

SadisticSavior

Laerian wrote: »

By the way, those "spoon feeding" trolling attempts really get old. I don't see people asking for the "I win" button here but reasonable time sinks.

What is reasonable? Eve's are way WAY more than this and they have a dedicated following even after a decade or more.

I might be more sympathetic is there were not already a million other MMOs that already do things the way the OP is asking for. I see no reason at all to make it one million and one. A million is enough.

Laerian

SadisticSavior wrote: »

Laerian wrote: »

By the way, those "spoon feeding" trolling attempts really get old. I don't see people asking for the "I win" button here but reasonable time sinks.

What is reasonable? Eve's are way WAY more than this and they have a dedicated following even after a decade or more.

I might be more sympathetic is there were not already a million other MMOs that already do things the way the OP is asking for. I see no reason at all to make it one million and one. A million is enough.

For Eve's players these cooldowns can be a walk in the park, however and fortunately this is not Eve.

I'd like to play Elder Scrolls Online not Elder Scrolls Manager.

SadisticSavior

Laerian wrote: »

For Eve's players these cooldowns can be a walk in the park, however and fortunately this is not Eve.

I'd like to play Elder Scrolls Online not Elder Scrolls Manager.

Who should get to decide how long is long enough? Just curious.

I used Eve as an example because it is a successful MMO that has done things this way for a long time. ESO is not breaking new ground...we already know it can work.

As for me, it is refreshing to have a chance to get skills that someone will actually give a crap about, because they are not so easy to get that everyone and their dog has them.

Brennan

SadisticSavior wrote: »

Laerian wrote: »

For Eve's players these cooldowns can be a walk in the park, however and fortunately this is not Eve.

I'd like to play Elder Scrolls Online not Elder Scrolls Manager.

Who should get to decide how long is long enough? Just curious.

I used Eve as an example because it is a successful MMO that has done things this way for a long time. ESO is not breaking new ground...we already know it can work.

As for me, it is refreshing to have a chance to get skills that someone will actually give a crap about, because they are not so easy to get that everyone and their dog has them.

I would add something else to this. No, this isn't Eve Online. It is Elder Scrolls Online - if you don't like the long time investment that was implemented in the design of research - go play the game that does instantly stroke your ego for pressing a button. I'm tired of those kind of games but clearly it is exactly what you want.

SadisticSavior

...

ElChristo

SadisticSavior wrote: »

...

^ What he said

Inkedbettie

I think everyone is used to buying a game for 60 bucks then spending 4 nonstop days playing it, completing it then moving onto the next. This whole forum is everyone upset things take time, or aren't easy.

You think crafting is too time consuming? Don't craft! Simple...go sell vampire bites to pay for armor repairs.
I don't like healing so I didn't make a healer. Good thing I have several other options...
Wait I don't like the way Altmer look, well good thing I can make different character..

Laerian

SadisticSavior wrote: »

Who should get to decide how long is long enough? Just curious.

Certainly not people incapable of dealing with different opinions.

And answering directly to your question, the sense of time is totally subjective the same with the sense of difficulty. That's why the players provide feedback and developers decide.

SadisticSavior wrote: »

I used Eve as an example because it is a successful MMO that has done things this way for a long time. ESO is not breaking new ground...we already know it can work.

You are comparing apples and oranges, we are not in the 00's. What worked back then it won't necessarily works in 2014. Also, is not right to think that because it still works with a 10 years old community it will work with ESO that just started.

The world and the people are different, get used to it; I loved those arcades in the 80's however, you won't see me trying to impose them to other people.

SadisticSavior wrote: »

As for me, it is refreshing to have a chance to get skills that someone will actually give a crap about, because they are not so easy to get that everyone and their dog has them.

You are confunding difficulty with boredoom. I can't fix that.

About me, I've have no problem with other people having the same or more than me (if they not cheat); I never developed the sense of exclusivity in videogames.

glamorousskies

It's nice to see that Laerian agrees with my point of view. I am surprised i have a few people that defend and agree with my point; especially on an ESO forum. Look people, all i'm saying is this.-(which is TRUTHFUL as well as my humble opinion)

This game has a ridiculous amount of time needed to get the max stuff.Obviously you can argue "things take time or they should" yeah, i get that and it makes sense. But that is like telling me to justspend like ten years to get a vehicle "because it will be worth it"

Tetujin

I would feel more about this if it literally restricted you from using items until some long time had passed. I don't really expect to be unable to get these once crafters start hitting this point, I'll just find a supplier I trust and start mailing them money for items.

The EVE system is illustrative as a precedent, but I am very glad that this is not how the skill system in general works in this game.

Brennan

sir_dunnub17_ESO wrote: »

I would feel more about this if it literally restricted you from using items until some long time had passed. I don't really expect to be unable to get these once crafters start hitting this point, I'll just find a supplier I trust and start mailing them money for items.

The EVE system is illustrative as a precedent, but I am very glad that this is not how the skill system in general works in this game.

Training upwards of two months to get the first passive on Heavy Armor. LOL

SadisticSavior

glamorousskies wrote: »

This game has a ridiculous amount of time needed to get the max stuff.

1) Not everyone agrees it is ridiculous. The extreme times are only for maxing out traits...you can learn new traits as quickly as 4 a day in the beginning.
2) It's not just to make your life more difficult...it serves a specific purpose.