Cheating and Hacking Run Rampant

Wanderica

First let me say that I have read comments by the developers on this issue recently and I applaud your efforts, but more needs to be done.

In 15 years of gaming I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen outright cheating by using speed and teleport and speed hacks in a pay to play MMO. I'm sure these are gold farmers running multiple characters through a script on a single machine, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. I counted 10 different names the likes of "sjdhsjhd" all wearing Coldharbor rags in Rivenspire speed running, running through walls, and outright teleporting. Not since my FPS days have I seen this level of hacking, and NEVER have I seen it this bad in a AAA MMO. I don't pretend to be a developer, but what is the difference with this game?

Am I the only one that is seeing this? Has anyone else seen and reported these cheaters?

Food for thought: The lesser of two evils here would be a public auction house. Maybe they wouldn't need to cheat if they could just sell goods normally. If it is so easy for gold sellers to do this, what, more subtle, cheats exist? This could seriously affect PvP when it becomes the level 50 competition that we all want it to become.

Loxy37

Not to detract from what you are saying but there's been about 50 threads on this so far and it would be really useful for all our sanity if people just used the search function.

GossiTheDog

51 threads

They're working on it. That's all we can say.

icengr_ESO

First, I have seen it this bad in other games, especially at launch (FFXIV V2 anyone?) Second, adding a AH would just make it worse as those cheaters would have an outlet for all their ill gotten goods.

nice way to disguise a "AH is VITAL! to this game" post

*tips hat*

Wanderica

Loxy37 wrote: »

Not to detract from what you are saying but there's been about 50 threads on this so far and it would be really useful for all our sanity if people just used the search function.

Agreed, and I apologize for not using a current thread, but it would also be useful for our sanity if these forums weren't so incredibly difficult to navigate. I'll search one out though.

Kril

I have no clue lol

Turelus

I see what you did there disguising a "Can we have an auction house please" thread as a "How to stop botting and cheats".

Here is something, people are going to bot and cheat even if you get an auction house, because they will still want gold to sell to players.
People are not botting because they don't have an auction house and need materials, they're botting because they want to get more money without playing or because they're working for gold selling sites and need gold to sell to people.

KerinKor

Wanderica wrote: »

In 15 years of gaming I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen outright cheating by using speed and teleport and speed hacks in a pay to play MMO. I'm sure these are multiboxers running multiple characters through a script on a single machine, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. I counted 10 different names the likes of "sjdhsjhd" all wearing Coldharbor rags in Rivenspire speed running, running through walls, and outright teleporting. Not since my FPS days have I seen this level of hacking, and NEVER have I seen it this bad in a AAA MMO. I don't pretend to be a developer, but what is the difference with this game?

Am I the only one that is seeing this? Has anyone else seen and reported these cheaters?

Answering your last point first, how did you miss the dozens of thread on here moaning about bots.

Second, stop equating multiboxers with hackers, there's no connection except in prejudiced minds like yours, every MMO I play (7 and counting) allows 'boxing, none allow hacking.

Third, ESO is far from the first MMO this scourge has infected, LOTRO, Rift, FFXIV V1, FFXIV V2, FFIX (back in '04), GW2 .. and others .. have ALL suffered from pos-hacking, node-teleporting and the rest. About the only novel bot feature I've seen here is invisi-bots, how ZOS' software allows that God knows in other games the bots run below ground, and the lack of nameplates exacerbates it.

It's BECAUSE this bot plague HAS happened in most other games that it's even more appalling that ZOS learned no lessons from those MMOs that have gone before.

Wanderica

icengr_ESO wrote: »

First, I have seen it this bad in other games, especially at launch (FFXIV V2 anyone?) Second, adding a AH would just make it worse as those cheaters would have an outlet for all their ill gotten goods.

nice way to disguise a "AH is VITAL! to this game" post

*tips hat*

Not disguising anything, and I said nothing of the sort. This is about cheating, not the AH. I was simply pointing out that if you are a chinese gold farmer, moving goods is difficult if you are not a part of a trading guild. These guys are good at what they do and it's big business for them. I'm in no way advocating their behavior, but as they say, "where there's a will, there's a way." The alternative means they have found seems to be the cheating.

Loxy37

Wanderica wrote: »

Loxy37 wrote: »

Not to detract from what you are saying but there's been about 50 threads on this so far and it would be really useful for all our sanity if people just used the search function.

Agreed, and I apologize for not using a current thread, but it would also be useful for our sanity if these forums weren't so incredibly difficult to navigate. I'll search one out though.

I agree that it is a mess. I wasnt being a ass saying what I said its just we all need to try to keep things organised because the forums are such a mess. I have never see a more terribly designed forum in my 33 years Gaming.

Wanderica

KerinKor wrote: »

Wanderica wrote: »

In 15 years of gaming I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen outright cheating by using speed and teleport and speed hacks in a pay to play MMO. I'm sure these are multiboxers running multiple characters through a script on a single machine, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. I counted 10 different names the likes of "sjdhsjhd" all wearing Coldharbor rags in Rivenspire speed running, running through walls, and outright teleporting. Not since my FPS days have I seen this level of hacking, and NEVER have I seen it this bad in a AAA MMO. I don't pretend to be a developer, but what is the difference with this game?

Am I the only one that is seeing this? Has anyone else seen and reported these cheaters?

Answering your last point first, how did you miss the dozens of thread on here moaning about bots.

Second, stop equating multiboxers with hackers, there's no connection except in prejudiced minds like yours, every MMO I play (7 and counting) allows 'boxing, none allow hacking.

Third, ESO is far from the first MMO this scourge has infected, LOTRO, Rift, FFXIV V1, FFXIV V2, FFIX (back in '04), GW2 .. and others .. have ALL suffered from pos-hacking, node-teleporting and the rest. About the only novel bot feature I've seen here is invisi-bots, how ZOS' software allows that God knows in other games the bots run below ground, and the lack of nameplates exacerbates it.

It's BECAUSE this bot plague HAS happened in most other games that it's even more appalling that ZOS learned no lessons from those MMOs that have gone before.

Please reread the post. I have not equated multi-boxing with hacking. I merely pointed out that the hackers here ARE multi-boxing. If not for boxing, then older games like EQ might not be around anymore. No issues with multi-boxing. Just with cheaters.

I'm aware that it exists in other games, but I've never witnessed there like I do here. I see cheating in ESO daily.

I don't frequent this forum. It's an unbelievably poor page design. I quickly searched through the Recent Issues, saw no hacking threads and started one. Hell, this probably isn't even the right sub-forum, but seriously. After overlooking french and german, then not finding a General Tab, I decided on Customer Service. Again, there were no cheating threads on the first page, so I started one.

starkerealm

KerinKor wrote: »

Second, stop equating multiboxers with hackers, there's no connection except in prejudiced minds like yours, every MMO I play (7 and counting) allows 'boxing, none allow hacking.

Because of the lack of automation in TESO, multiboxing starts to look a lot more like botting, at least to an outside observer. And, given the current state of the game, equating botting with hacking isn't a huge jump. No offense.

awhecknum1ub17_ESO

"Agreed, and I apologize for not using a current thread, but it would also be useful for our sanity if these forums weren't so incredibly difficult to navigate. I'll search one out though."

Quoting a previous writer above - these forums are incredibly hard to navigate. Worst lay out of forums I have ever seen for an MMO.

And addressing the multiboxer comment

Multiboxers are usually not stupid enough to label their toons xkdejld etc. I have multiboxed before - and most multiboxers have a strict code. We dont afk anything - harvesting, dungeons, etc. We multibox for the challenge of running a group. And most of us try very hard to make sure we dont impact anyone's game play - we stick to instanced dungeons or move if we are in an area where others are questing.

The xdkfgh characters are gold farmers. I have played enough MMOs to know that. Not since Aeon have I seen such rampant gold farming and afk botting - but I truly believe Korean MMOs have a gold farming department - nothing is ever done about botting in those MMOs.

I hope Zen will go talk to the GW2 folks - they did an excellent job combatting this problem.

VileIntent

having a global auction house will only feed the gold farmers. forcing a single account to 5 guild stores and reaching a max of 2495 potential buyers is far better than letting them have access to everyone in the game...

the guild store is awesome, may it never change!

Graogrimm

Wanderica wrote: »

... I'm sure these are multiboxers running multiple characters through a script on a single machine, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. ....

Well, this has nothing to do with multiboxing. With mulitboxing you try to act 2+ characters as a group as a sole player actively.
As a botter, you let the computer act the characters without much human interaction.

Wanderica

Graogrimm wrote: »

Wanderica wrote: »

... I'm sure these are multiboxers running multiple characters through a script on a single machine, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. ....

Well, this has nothing to do with multiboxing. With mulitboxing you try to act 2+ characters as a group as a sole player actively.
As a botter, you let the computer act the characters without much human interaction.

Sorry for the confusion. I have edited the OP and removed the word multi-boxers. I didn't mean to say that multi-boxers were cheating. I couldn't care less if people multibox. Just a bad choice of words on my part. I am aware of the difference between boxers and botters.

starkerealm

awhecknum1ub17_ESO wrote: »

I hope Zen will go talk to the GW2 folks - they did an excellent job combatting this problem.

I don't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't GW2's solution to just cut out the middleman and sell currency directly? Taking the legs out from under the gold sellers before they could get going, and simultaneously making the gold acquisition rates brutal. Driving players towards the in game store?

I mean, that would be fine if we weren't paying a subscription fee, but you're talking about asking, I mean, literally asking Zenimax to double dip, for our sub fee and for their premium currency. That's almost Cryptic levels of screwing the customer.

Anoteros

icengr_ESO wrote: »

First, I have seen it this bad in other games, especially at launch (FFXIV V2 anyone?) Second, adding a AH would just make it worse as those cheaters would have an outlet for all their ill gotten goods.

nice way to disguise a "AH is VITAL! to this game" post

*tips hat*

Auction House is needed not only to give value to items but to create some kind of 'world economy' This multi guild nonsense needs to go.
Gold sellers will be everywhere and are everywhere regardless. At least it'll be better than getting spammed to join some gold selling scam guild you unintentionally join when looting (as the keys are the same to loot and to accept invites)
How are we supposed to feel a sense of loyalty or 'community' within a guild when we're members of 5?

grizzbi

Zenimax is probably doing its best...

but there are a few things that annoy me :

1. - many many MANY bots ( almost all the nodes from several area are "stolen" from players)
2. - Reporting those bots is painful (most of the people don't even know how to do so)
3. - If you report a lot of bots , you might be considered as a spammer from the customer service! ( they told me to stop and see if the first ticket has had an answer...which clearly show that they probably don't have the time and people to investigate over time)
4. - No GM to insta ban obvious botter in important locations like dungeons : most of those dungeon have more botter than player (no joke)..
5. - Botter who can continue for days (weeks?) before they get banned: it's probably still profitable for them in most case ..
6. - Players also cheating (speedhack are quite common) without even trying to hide themselves ( that's quite new for me, and it shows that the threat is not high enough)
7. - Not enough communication (as usual, same mistakes over the years)
8. - A company probably trying to hide quite important issues in disorganized forums ( what a great idea from the marketing dep)

From my point of view, things could be better.

Now I can understand that this is very hard to counter and that there's not a single solution. It will take time. And decision will have to be taken quickly. I'm sure they are working hard on the subject.

Things are just a little bit out of control right now..

Sorry for my poor english.

(and next comment or post from me will be much more positive because I love this game and think that they have done a wonderful job)

SirAndy

Wanderica wrote: »

but what is the difference with this game?

I'm a programmer and worked in the game industry for many years.

My take:
ZOS made the mistake to have client side movement where the decision about your movement in the world is made locally in your game client and that decision is then sent to the server.

This opens the door WIDE for all sorts of exploits. No game relevant decision should ever be made by the client and then be sent to the server. Ever. All bad.


Instead, every multiplayer game i have ever worked on used some sort of prediction model where the server kept track of your characters state at all times and the client only send the user input to the server.
The server then decides whether that input is within the capabilities of the character, calculates an outcome and then transmits that result to the client.
In the mean time the client has done a similar calculation to "predict" the server answer and renders the client side prediction before even getting an answer from the server.
99% of the time the answer matches the prediction and you get a smooth client side game display with very little lag.
The few times when the prediction fails, you'll see little hickups, but they rarely happen.

Now, the real upside of these prediction implementations is that even if a hacker was able to sent a command to the server saying "i'm here at this node, now teleport me over to this other node 1000 yards away" the server would simply reject this input since it would fall outside of the abilities of your character.
The server would always take your current state (location, speed, buffs, terrain, abilities etc.) into consideration and calculate to see if what you're trying to do (for example move 1000 yards at once) is even possible and reject anything that is impossible.

On top of that, they're using the windows message loop to query your input devices, like the keyboard and mouse.
It is stupendously easy to inject messages into that loop from 3rd party applications. That is why you already see bots that actually run between nodes just like a normal character.

I mentioned this to ZOS the first time 8 months ago. There are low level windows functions to directly talk to input hardware without using the message loop and those functions are inherently more safe to use since injecting false information is a lot harder.

Oh well ...

snowmanflvb14_ESO

You do know that your solution would in fact make it worse. One of the anti farming methods in place is in fact the guild stores. Second, the hackers/cheaters in this game pales in comparison to other games such as WoW, GW2, LOTRO and any of the FF games.

Chomag

This game is made by amateurs. It's like they are re-inventing the wheel when it comes to MMOs.

CrimsonThomas

What am I going to have to come back to when I finally get my hands on a Prepaid Time Card? From the looks of this current situation, not much more than a bot-filled romp in tombs and grass.

Saddening. The beta was more enjoyable and less broken than this. This is exploitation, Zenimax.

Minoxa

This game is turning in to a cheatfeast!

NovaMarx

KerinKor wrote: »

About the only novel bot feature I've seen here is invisi-bots, how ZOS' software allows that God knows in other games the bots run below ground, and the lack of nameplates exacerbates it.

It's BECAUSE this bot plague HAS happened in most other games that it's even more appalling that ZOS learned no lessons from those MMOs that have gone before.

I've experienced these "invisi-bots" too, but I thought it was just a "lag" in the game at first - but after trying to harvest items unsuccesfully multiple times, due to "this item is currently in use", I started getting suspicious.

*sigh* bots bots bots....

Darzil

snowmanflvb14_ESO wrote: »

You do know that your solution would in fact make it worse. One of the anti farming methods in place is in fact the guild stores. Second, the hackers/cheaters in this game pales in comparison to other games such as WoW, GW2, LOTRO and any of the FF games.

I think the guild stores make it harder for farmers to drive up inflation to create a market, but it doesn't actually stop them farming or selling gold at all. I've not seen bot armies like this before in games, but then the lure of a megaserver is huge, you don't need a bot army on every server with a megaserver. I hope that the time spent not banning the bots is due to Zenimax working out the best ways to combat them, which might well involve studying them for a while. Time will tell, hopefully not much time because this game's selling point is immersion, and this breaks it. (If you have no immersion, you'll consider the game interface barely functional rather than minimalist, for example)

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

Just got finished watching some bot scripts after reporting and managing to get 3 of the 5 killed by mobs. interesting stuff.

stylernaku

Have any of you not considered bots have a positive effect for Zen as a business for profits of this game? Of sure you complaint about it but consider this:

1. For every bot there's the game price and subscription price in Zen's pocket.
2. For every frustrated player that has neither the skill or the game time to buy nice shiny things, they can cut corners by bots gold and keep playing which results in them keep paying right into zens pocket.

Those two factors = a plus not a negative.

If Zen truly want to solve it, like EVE online did, they need to come up with a pay for item function that can be traded in game for high value. It's a careful balance but you can do this to give a leg up to non hardcore gamers, and stop this move being a pay to win feature.

This game gives you hefty repair bills, and it requires some grind for the real good stuff, that's taxing on a casual gamer base but satisfying for the hardcore. That's a hard juggling act and the makers of this game will need time to find balance.

We haven't even past the first month of fully fledged live playing. Patience.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

@stylernaku except that if real players leave the game because bots interfere with their gameplay (what actually happens), the bots will have nobody to buy their goods and will thus leave also.

FezzikVizzini

@SirAndy‌

Nice to see a post from someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

Yeah, client side prediction is OK as long as it works smoothly. Of course if you have any sort of server lag, or indeed as I understand it just bad latency then you are going to have desync problems and rubberbanding issues.

You only have to play Path Of Exile to see what problems this causes. I am not sure how most mmos handle this issue. Last I played before was FFXIV ARR and it had exactly the same issue of teleporting bots etc.

Speaking of POE, maybe ZOS should speak to them about how they detect botting. I have to admit that I played POE for ages and then got bored with it. Knowing I was going to give it up I started to bot some toons to see what would happen. Even though I was very careful after 3 weeks or so all 4 of my accounts were banned. There is nothing in the client to detect botting and noone knows how Grinding Gear Games are so good at catching bots. And they are a small indie company with maybe a dozen people. They are obviously using some sort of statistical analysis to catch people.

Surely this is something that ESO could do ? I mean, if a character spends 24 hours in roughly the same place doing exactly the same things then it's a good bet that it's a bot. Same goes for harvesting nodes.

Arreyanne

KerinKor wrote: »

Wanderica wrote: »

In 15 years of gaming I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen outright cheating by using speed and teleport and speed hacks in a pay to play MMO. I'm sure these are multiboxers running multiple characters through a script on a single machine, but it's getting a bit ridiculous. I counted 10 different names the likes of "sjdhsjhd" all wearing Coldharbor rags in Rivenspire speed running, running through walls, and outright teleporting. Not since my FPS days have I seen this level of hacking, and NEVER have I seen it this bad in a AAA MMO. I don't pretend to be a developer, but what is the difference with this game?

Am I the only one that is seeing this? Has anyone else seen and reported these cheaters?

Answering your last point first, how did you miss the dozens of thread on here moaning about bots.

Second, stop equating multiboxers with hackers, there's no connection except in prejudiced minds like yours, every MMO I play (7 and counting) allows 'boxing, none allow hacking.

Third, ESO is far from the first MMO this scourge has infected, LOTRO, Rift, FFXIV V1, FFXIV V2, FFIX (back in '04), GW2 .. and others .. have ALL suffered from pos-hacking, node-teleporting and the rest. About the only novel bot feature I've seen here is invisi-bots, how ZOS' software allows that God knows in other games the bots run below ground, and the lack of nameplates exacerbates it.

It's BECAUSE this bot plague HAS happened in most other games that it's even more appalling that ZOS learned no lessons from those MMOs that have gone before.

They can't even code a working bank and you expect them to insert a code fix bots PLEASE