Groups without healers or tanks?? Tanks with zero Aggro control? What's the point?

Soraka

I do 99% of my playing (dungeons, quests, grinding, etc.) with someone who is a main 'tank'. As a main 'healer' I really don't have any issues with his ability to protect me. However we are currently level 48, so maybe it's different later on.
Edit: I guess I should add that I do usually run with some form of skill I can use to protect -myself- in case of emergency.

jesterstear

I've not done anything tougher than Elden Hollow, I used to play a tank and had a healer alt who both went raiding on lord of the rings online - for about three years.

So far however, it seems fine, if you get a good group.

I've a Templar tank who single target agros with Ransack and I have my class heal skills too. I can also swap to secondary weapon - a restoration staff - for more determined healing. And I've got Turn Undead which I can throw down as well.

It can be a real help if the dps classes know how to interrupt and avoid big hits, it's also really good when they put a few points into a support skill of their own for when things get tough.

Heck , some groups I was in, everyone of us had a restoration staff as our secondary weapon - plenty of back up healing available in an emergency.

Crowtac

An easy option would be to add Aggro gain by 100% to shields, that way anyone who equips a sheild will get the most agrro. I agree though Elder Scrolls online seems to be over AOE friendly where the single target tanks need to wear a robe and staff to compete with the content...not good.

Audigy

Biggest issue is quite simple.

At WOW the tank must do everything, while the DPS and Healers just spam heal / DPS. There is no thinking involved for a DPS and almost none for a Healer. This however, wont get you anywhere at TESO.

You are responsible for yourself in a dungeon and have to help out whenever you can. As a DPS you cant over pull anymore and then wait for the tank to pick mobs from you, just like you now need to avoid incoming damage. Players need to adjust to the "new / old MMO style" where you don't just tag along, but have a real responsibility in a group, also and especially as a DPS.


If they give tanks a "hit and stick" ability like at wow, the whole game would become a brain-dead scenario like group content at wow currently is. One player does all the work and 9 others just tag along.

DrJawaPhD

Putting enemy nameplates in the game would go a LONG ways towards making it easier to tank and make trash pulls less of a chaotic CF

ZoM_Head

flarefireb16_ESO wrote: »

If one player throws random AoE in a corner, another hits the nearest melee opponent, a third is looting and the fourth is practicing their /drunkdance emote, you will wipe repeatedly.

However if one player roots/kites the enemy melee while the other three focus fire on casters then archers, you can destroy most packs without even needing heals.

Make a video and prove this statement right there, no matter how far or close you are to one certain enemy or a group, you will always get hit and there will always be need for healers period.

You only need one enemy to completely break your "tactics", and from what i have seen in dungeons it always happens.

hauke

hm looks like Teso managed to make dungeons diffrent then the usual buisness... its not wow, its something new, diffrent
guess people who wanted to have wow in a elderscroll look will be disapointed.

i think it will be fun

Mordred1974

In all honesty, my dungeon experiences have been horrible aswell....
And i am sure that with the right people it can work very well, but let's be honest, if you are accustomed of going through a dungeon finder tool you will end up with a combination of "not the best players around" 99% of the time... giving a poor experience.

Wow is the standard, you want to make things different? Fine .... baby-steps at a time .... if not you will lose your playerbase. After that the game will become free to play, and chances are that even after that it becomes too expensive to uphold the servers and the game might close alltogether (example Warhammer online)

For me... currently the quest flow (aka single player part of the game) is fun and entertaining... but if they don't fix group play (read... players with mediocre skill being able to play together) than the game and subscription ends at lvl 50 and it's back to WoW which has proven to be entertaining for the last 10 years or so

Singular

Badh0rse wrote: »

This game actually has given me the best Tank experience I have had in many, many, years of MMO's. The problem for people is that you actually have to be able to play video games ... no more spamming AoE taunts. I personally love it and think if tanks in this game just learn to control the crowd and manage their group members it will be awesome. There is however something that does ruin it for everyone .... and that is taking away any reward for doing dungeons! Come on ESO, pull your heads out your .... errr ummm, you know.

You're kinda making me want to play a tank...Sounds like a nice challenge!

I've always hated playing them and running with them - who wants to fight static mobs that just aggro to one character? That's like hitting a tree over and over.

Singular

Crowtac wrote: »

An easy option would be to add Aggro gain by 100% to shields, that way anyone who equips a sheild will get the most agrro. I agree though Elder Scrolls online seems to be over AOE friendly where the single target tanks need to wear a robe and staff to compete with the content...not good.

Uh, no. That would ruin the potential diversity in item use. If you did that, then squishies couldn't use shield.

Custos91

Just as a reminder we (the healer) are not able to keep a tank alive who is tanking everything!
Keep that in mind pls, even if you could controll all the mobs, how long will you last with that 15 red cones aimed at you while 5 circles are spawning around you?
Oh, and don't forget the charged hits and tho normal ones xD

bantad87

kpugh3b14a_ESO wrote: »

Badh0rse wrote: »

This game actually has given me the best Tank experience I have had in many, many, years of MMO's. The problem for people is that you actually have to be able to play video games ... no more spamming AoE taunts. I personally love it and think if tanks in this game just learn to control the crowd and manage their group members it will be awesome. There is however something that does ruin it for everyone .... and that is taking away any reward for doing dungeons! Come on ESO, pull your heads out your .... errr ummm, you know.

I am quoting this poster however they are not the only one who have brought up the idea that people who do not enjoy the ESO style of dungeon mechanics that somehow makes them lesser gamers. It is an abusrd notion to have this belief as there were plenty of challenge encounters in dungeons before WoW (as an example) nerfed it's content. Vanilla/BC dungeons required teamwork with focus targeting, plenty of CC, resource management (mana, threat, rage) etc. So some of these comments lead me to believe these same posters never participated in these early WoW dungeons.

Posters are continually putting down those who prefer to tank using more "traditional" mechanics, it is disturbing seeing this trend proliferate itself throughout the thread. One style of dungeon mechanics is not inherently better than the other, and simply because you enjoy one style over the other does not then indicate that one system makes you a better player. Please get off of your high horse, I think it needs a rest.

In a genre that is dominated by the "traditional" group dynamic of aoe taunt, cc, focus target - I think ESO represents a healthy step away from traditional group instancing. ESO is nontraditional in nearly every aspect, from active blocking and interrupting and no "auto attacks", to a nonstandard levelling and questing experience - and I don't think the "traditional" dungeon method has any place in ESO. There are plenty of games with that experience, let ESO be unique in that regard.

If you prefer a standard tanking experience, there are a plethora of games that offer such an experience - WoW, Aion, Swtor, Rift, etc. Let ESO do its own thing. Traditional enemies in TES engaged opponents they deemed to be the greatest threat, and I like this more realistic system. Real enemies don't engage the toughest opponent, they pick off the greatest threat or attack healers - that's what NPCs should do. If anything, I'd argue that "tanks" would be better suited to slotting lots of control in order to defend their allies.

This current system encourages this kind of play and team support, and I applaud ZOS for implementing more realistic encounters and nonstandard AI.

To further support my suspicions, every single skill in the sword/board tree has a debuff or controlling effect attached. Defensive stance, puncture, low slash, shield charge, shield bash, and even deadly bash (interrupt). That tells me that tanks are intended to disable their opponents to protect their team, not taunt them. Another strong link to this is that mobs that are currently cc'd or just got up from cc tend to attack the person who cc'd them, indicating that cc is probably the highest priority threat generation. So, tanks, slot some cc.

Getorix

For the people saying this is new, its not. Other games have tried this cf style of mass ae's and burn all the mobs down before they burn you down. And its one of the reasons I almost didn't buy ESO, action combat games always have messy and lazy group combat like this.

In some ways its a lot better than games like GW2 and NWO but the lack of name plates on mobs makes those things they have done better not matter.

bantad87

I'll have to disagree w/ you. Lazy games revert to the holy trinity, and its a boring way of playing. Its literally a snooze fest.

Plus, group combat like this is intended to be messy. The AI is somewhat unpredictable and realistic. God knows real fighting isn't predictable.

Granite

For me eso is much more about enjoying the gameplay than enjoying the gear you get as in other games I have played so this was thought I posted earlier in my poll and Im lazy so I just quote myself

Granite wrote: »

This is just my opinion and how I would like to play the game

What I would prefer?
Skill tree: Threat generation increased 140%(?) with bash while using Spiked Armor (Dk expample)

It would give you enough options to not activating this passive (not getting the passive, not using Spiked Armor while not tanking)

Weapon skills: Threat generation increased 140%(?) with bash while using Defensive Posture.

OR ...while Defensive Posture/Spiked Armor is slotted.


Would it be needed?: No it is not must thing to have since there is taunts but it would be more enjoyable for ppl who has used to play a tank when you dont have to spam taunt and eventually go oos (out of stamina) while you would need to safe those for blocking and dodges.

What would it give to players?: More options to manage your resourses, mostly stamina, and more enjoyable tanking experience overal. It would also give to option to personalize your gaming style more.

I'm not sure if it is the US/EU ping what does it but sometimes it is mildly annoying to taunt all those mobs running for healer when skills dont respond as fast that they should.

Also I'm aware of the running speed problem while blocking but anyway if you are going deep tank you would get the blocking passive to help with that running speed reduction.

Tell me your opinion about this

Elessie

Well I can't help feeling like they missed the mark somehow, because when looking to run dungeons there are plenty of dps and healers but nobody wants to tank.

bean19

As a healer with a variety of PUG tanks, I expect to have to heal the whole group including myself. I have 4 heals on my casting bar and one ranged snare that helps me kite melee. If I'm targeted by ranged casters, I just take it and I'm happy as I have WAY more spell resist than anyone else on my team and thus am the best spell tank. If melee comes after me, I throw my instant snare spell and start moving. The only thing I fear are archers and bosses.

It definitely isn't sleepy-time easy and I can tell that a lot of the DPS don't understand this stuff yet. . . probably because they have to wait so long for dungeons that they don't get to do many dungeons. What's really weird are all the guys in full heavy armor waiting forever as dps to get a group. They could go buy a shield, hit a few monsters and get the one taunt ability in sword & board and then use the other 4 slots for class skills. Then they could queue as a tank and more groups would form. This should be a game in which we NEVER have to wait for a tank and the only difficult to fill role is a good healer (since the heals in the Resto staff line are good, but not Templar amazing). . . though I guess at high levels, most people will want tanks to be DKs or Templars as this makes things much easier.

Nina

Custos91 wrote: »

Just as a reminder we (the healer) are not able to keep a tank alive who is tanking everything!
Keep that in mind pls, even if you could controll all the mobs, how long will you last with that 15 red cones aimed at you while 5 circles are spawning around you?
Oh, and don't forget the charged hits and tho normal ones xD

Very good point and my not so extensive experience makes me agree.

Granite

Custos91 wrote: »

Just as a reminder we (the healer) are not able to keep a tank alive who is tanking everything!
Keep that in mind pls, even if you could controll all the mobs, how long will you last with that 15 red cones aimed at you while 5 circles are spawning around you?
Oh, and don't forget the charged hits and tho normal ones xD

Even if im controlling every mob in the room that doesnt mean that im not interrupting their skills with my bash. But usually Im not controlling everything. I run mostly with guild group and we are in TS so Im just saying "burn 2 left ones down first." And they do it and I can take the rest pretty easily if im interrupting those hard hits or moving out of the way. And If I hear my healer saying "oom" I'll just use my own healing skill few times.

I think ppl are afraid of giving instructions with pug groups tho that just makes dungeon runs smoother. And if someone gets mad about getting instructions or doesnt listen. Kick him. He will learn to listen others with time

Sarah_Lynn

Be adaptable, this is Elder Scrolls, the reason we get so many skill points and such varying skills is to be able to take on more than one roll, that's what having a second weapon slot is for, no? If you can't handle taking a bit of damage because the boss looked at you instead of the tank, maybe it's your fault and not the groups fault. No one should be trying to be pure tank or pure healer in an Elder Scrolls game, it just doesn't really make sense. Build like you'll be soloing, then discuss rolls and how you'll handle it if things go haywire with your group. I have a tank that heals and a DPS that heals, a DPS that tanks, etc. In a REAL adventure situation a monster is not going to focus on one player, especially is they're not dealing out much damage. You should be prepared for it to turn around and swing at you, no matter what your "class" is. If you're not, it's purely your own fault, not the games fault. I target the easiest to kill and the most damaging mobs first, why shouldn't mobs do the same to us? I don't see why any skills should change this.

Bramir

Tanking and healing in this game are both very different from what MMO players are used to. Here are a couple examples:

1. In ESO, tanks have to get out of melee aoes. In most MMOs, they face tank them while the healer focus heals them.

2. In ESO, the healer cannot select the tank and heal/follow them around, spamming heals on them no matter what direction they are in. In most MMOs, that is exactly what the healer is supposed to do, and what the tank expects.

3. In ESO, healers do not have an 'oh ***' button to save the tank when they are getting hit too hard. In most MMOs, a healer will have at least one ST heal that restores massive health.

4. In ESO, agro is fluid. Bosses will attack other members of the party other than the tank even if they are using their agro skills. DPS and healers need to be prepared to defend themselves, at least for a few seconds.

5. In ESO, the tank has to actively block. In most MMOs, equipping a shield means you block.

6. In ESO, smart ST heals can result in the tank not getting heals because another party member 'intercepts' them by getting hurt worse than the tank. In most MMOs, you can select your target for ST heals.

Anyway, just some observations that may help people adjust. I'm honestly still adjusting myself...and enjoying it, and I could be wrong about some of this stuff...

Granite

Bramir wrote: »

4. In ESO, agro is fluid. Bosses will attack other members of the party other than the tank even if they are using their agro skills. DPS and healers need to be prepared to defend themselves, at least for a few seconds.

This one is pretty common thing in other mmos too. Usually bosses have mechanics to charge/dmg random player and you need to know this and know how to counter it.

Bramir wrote: »

3. In ESO, healers do not have an 'oh ***' button to save the tank when they are getting hit too hard. In most MMOs, a healer will have at least one ST heal that restores massive health.

Well ultimates work pretty much as oh *** buttons. Healers have those and my tank has one too^^

Granite

Sarah_Lynn wrote: »

No one should be trying to be pure tank or pure healer in an Elder Scrolls game, it just doesn't really make sense.

Im building a pure tank DK and it works for me. I like it and I will play like that^^
There will be times when broken content is released (too hard bosses etc) and I will be in best shape for those
As my second wep Im using bow as it gives ranged spell interrupt that will be extremely usefull in some situations. Also pulling boss with full charge sneak attack is great thing to have acces.

siegbjam

That's exactly what I did at level 15. I got a shield and grabbed some skills in one hand and shield line, plus am working on the Undaunted Guild to one day get the ranged taunt. I found that as a dual wield DPS I could not get into dungeons because of a lack of tanks and was sick of waiting. As a tank in dungeons I find it rather fun the way it is and also find it amazing how the DPS are the ones that seem to make it a CF for my groups. They seem to target their own priorities and I have to come across as a bossy *** when we wipe and try and correct them and get some sort of organization.

Anyway to some it up, the tank taunt works just fine the way they were designed IMO. I can control the big mobs and boss just fine. I find the KEY is communication and being patient with the less experienced group members. After all everyone has a first run in a new dungeon.

KiroElmarok

I personally prefer and enjoy the trinity system. In GW2 I found the dungeons to be a dps race and that simply made the boss mechanics a pointless joke.

There are a few dps races ( first to come to mind is VR Spindle.. ) but other than that, you need a healz and a tank... I use both ransack and inner fire while tanking in vr. (My first time in VR Banished we only wiped twice.)

Fersaken

Calvnor wrote: »

Almost every group it puts me in for 4 man dungeons is completely void of healers or tanks. I've had several groups where not single player had the ability to even cast one heal and no one had heavy armor or a shield. Why even add the option to select your preferred class when the party finder completely ignores it? What is this, Guild Wars?

THEN, it gets even better. Tanks are a joke. The class is fun, but there are no aggro builders or aoe taunts, ranged taunts, etc... Plus, the taunt(or so they think it is) that you get doesn't do anything. You can taunt the enemy with it, but as soon as someone hits it, it attacks them. There' pretty much is NO way of controlling groups of enemies. It's just one big uncoordinated mess. The point of grouping is to work together and coordinate and synchronize as a team. There really isn't room to do this. If you believe there is, or that you and your groups are coordinated, you have no idea what it actually means to coordinate properly with a group. It's nothing but enemies running around all willy nilly.

Funny how the greatest PvE game makers of all time FINALLY make a multiplayer game, and they choose to focus completely on making it a PvP game. PvP is cool and all, but this is Elder Scrolls, it's generations of PvE only games that gathered millions of fans who love it. And here we though you knew your fans. You know nothing.

I know this is more than one topic, but I just wanted to get this out.

1. Your first rambling paragraph, I have never had this poop luck you have had but here is a GREAT idea, build your own group.

2. Wow I feel like I am wasting my time even explaining mechanics to you. Tanks are not a joke as in they are not useless, yes we have a taunt, and get this we have a ranged taunt too... Imagine that.

3. LOL another rant, im level 50 VR2 and I have not PVPed not a single time.

So with that being sad, seems like you are just frustrated with life in general. You say the developers know nothing, but I just proved you know nothing with cold hard facts, no opinions. I mean come on you didn't even know there was a ranged taunt....

Here is an idea for future posting. Do little research, make sure your arguments are valid, then think awhile on the post you want to make.. then don't post because you obviously lack the intelligence to help steer this game into a good direction. I hope no devs read this and decided to make changes off this post.

This game has a few glaring bugs and items that where very poorly thought through, but your points are all INVALID. Anyhow thanks for wasting everyones time.

Bramir

Granite wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

4. In ESO, agro is fluid. Bosses will attack other members of the party other than the tank even if they are using their agro skills. DPS and healers need to be prepared to defend themselves, at least for a few seconds.

This one is pretty common thing in other mmos too. Usually bosses have mechanics to charge/dmg random player and you need to know this and know how to counter it.

Fair enough, but people seem to still be very surprised when a boss attacks anyone but the tank. Hell, some even start telling the tank he sucks...

Granite wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

3. In ESO, healers do not have an 'oh ***' button to save the tank when they are getting hit too hard. In most MMOs, a healer will have at least one ST heal that restores massive health.

Well ultimates work pretty much as oh *** buttons. Healers have those and my tank has one too^^

Ultimates are used too infrequently to serve the same function as a big single target heal which might be used after every big boss hit in an MMO. They are an 'oh ***' button I suppose, but not the same kind...it is best that tanks have no expectation of this sort of heal coming at them...

jesterstear

After playing a traditional MMO for many years I am enjoying my Tank-Healer, they feel less one dimensional and also that they are violating the laws of common sense less than my mmo meat shield. I mean why would eight mobs form an orderly queue to attack my tank two at a time, ignoring the healer next to me or the squishy wizard stood right next to them who is roasting them alive?

It kind of makes sense only one or two going after me, but I like that my tank can help the other members of the party out with heals/buffs/crowd control too.

One thing I wonder though, if you're wanting to play it safe when building a group of hybrid characters , is to assume a hybrid that's split between offence and defence is only half a defender. Eg. if the usual balance is two dps and two defenders (a dedicated healer and a dedicated tank), then if you've got a healer dps hybrid instead of a dedicated healer, you really need two battle healers to ensure the group has sufficient healing.

Also, a tank with secondary skills that are support based (CC, heal, buff, debuff etc) counts as a complete defender, but a tank/dps hybrid may need additional defence elsewhere in the group to get the same level of safety?

Group dynamics still seem to be at an early stage... in my last MMO, it was rare to PUG anything, all group content was organised through the guild website, voice chat was used etc. So far guilds seem more about trade than PVE

Calvnor

People keep saying this game is "a step away from the wow norm" and stuff like that, but it's not. This set up is a complete copy of the same systems we know from all mainstream MMOs, just poorly done. They've used the same mechanics as all mainstream MMOs, but they left out some of the more important aspects. This is not some new system they've created, it's not a new way to play; this is just broken version of the exact same systems. The only reason you're not "having trouble" with completing PvE content is because it's so easy it's impossible to screw up. You can run around any dungeon all willy nilly and still easily complete any of them. This post is about about how your job as a tank feels useless and more like and under-powered DPS than anything. If it's fun for you, you're just easy to please, like a child with a ball tied to a paddle.

Sarah_Lynn

Granite wrote: »

Sarah_Lynn wrote: »

No one should be trying to be pure tank or pure healer in an Elder Scrolls game, it just doesn't really make sense.

Im building a pure tank DK and it works for me. I like it and I will play like that^^
There will be times when broken content is released (too hard bosses etc) and I will be in best shape for those
As my second wep Im using bow as it gives ranged spell interrupt that will be extremely usefull in some situations. Also pulling boss with full charge sneak attack is great thing to have acces.

I didn't mean building to be a tank is a BAD thing, I meant don't expect it to constantly hit you. You shouldn't be building your characters assuming one person is going to take all the damage, other people have to be prepared, and you have to be prepared to protect them by other means.