Combat is broken?

Vikova

OutcastVP wrote: »

How would that break the game? Have you not played other more serious MMO:s like Ultima or Eve Online, or only stuff like WoW?
How would the new character you give your good gear to break anything compared to you just using those weapons on your high level character. Especially when there is no real interactions between players at all or risk for anything.
Your "new" character would still be weaker then if you just continue to play with your high level character with the same equipment. If you have a friend that is high level and he wants to give you some good gear so you can adventure together. Then why not? It is your choice, that is the point. He would still be much stronger then you because he would be much higher level.

Quit referencing EVE in your silly argument. Learning skills in EVE to be able to use things takes forever.

Anthony45122

You would be a starting level character with the best gear in the game with no need to ever replace it. Which means all loot from dungeons, quests, drops, you don't need any of it. In which case why even do that content?
No interactions between players? Do you not have a guild? Have you not traded with another player? Have you not had another player help you kill a boss? Have you not done a 4 man dungeon? Just because you can't pvp everywhere and just because you don't lose your items when you die does not mean there is no player interaction. If you're so set on your as you call them "serious mmos" go back to them. As a matter of fact go try out runescape then you can die and lose all your gear all you want! The fact is most of us like the way it works and have no problem with it. If you do don't play the game. It is as simple as that.

Anthony45122

You must be playing an old version of skyrim then because I have the legendary edition and if I run too far away they CERTAINLY DO run back and reset.

tallenn

MMOs can and do have complete jerks in them. They have to be built with the absolute worst people in mind, because even though the vast majority of people wouldn't do something, there's always some tool who will.

Leashing (mobs disengaging if you kite them too far) is one of the consequences of that. Before leashing, it was possible to kite extremely dangerous mobs all the way into newbie areas, where they would destroy hundreds of players, guards, quest givers, and everything else. Because it was possible, there were a-holes that did it. Note: those idiots were only a tiny fraction of the population, but that's all it takes to ruin the community for an entire game.

Level requirements are too keep the game at least somewhat challenging. Almost everything in ESO is tradeable, so you could theoretically get given a full set of VR10 gear as a level one and blow through the almost the whole game with no challenge at all if there weren't level requirements on gear. In a single player game, balance is less important, because if you cheat, you're just cheating yourself. It's different in multi-player, and massively multi-player.

Januk

There's a "Level" restriction in Eve Online as well... As any Eve player would know... You can't take a brand spanking new character and but them into a Nyx, Dominix, Leviathan, Tengu, Legion, Pilgrim, Curze. All with full T2 fittings. Due to the skill restriction which is an abstract version of a leveling system but a leveling system non the less.

Rhiven

OutcastVP wrote: »

Why would I be joking about that, you think it is good there is a level cap on all equipment "oh these boots are to good for you now, you have to wait until you are powerful enough to be able to wear them". That just feels restricting and artificial. Why do you think that is a good idea here but you would not like it in a regular Elder Scrolls game?

Is this standard in other braindead mmo:s like Wow and it has become standard now?

If you risk going into a very dangerous area to get a very nice sword you should be able to equip that sword! You don't see how stupid this is? It is like the game is forcing you to be in a certain spot and lead you by the rope, you cant deviate to far. I guess that is the point of mobs respawning to, because a low level character might be able to defeat them by being sly if there is not some invisible wall that restricts what you can do?

Even EverQuest has had required levels on some items since 2000, so while it is now on every item in most games, it's not something new.

albert_milneb16_ESO2

Anyone who played EQ1 remember training a bunch of orcs to the area zone and let the orcs kill all the low lvl players there? or even in final fantasy 11 mobs would never drop off you in that game which led to many deaths i find that if i can run far enough away that the mobs drops off and returns to its spot is better then dying. also in EQ1 i didnt find it enjoyable having max lvl gear on my lvl 1 character because it was to easy.

MysticAura

The leveled system is good in many ways. You have to earn good gear, not just get it handed to you on a silver platter at lvl 1. RP wise, a high level enchantment could melt your brain (or some other important part) if you did not have the experience to deal with the power of the item.

As for critters resetting, it keeps people from trolling with critters, it also stops you from beating down a critter while continually dying and resurrecting yourself and carrying on the battle.

Darrett

He references UO a lot, but fails to mention that the equipment used by high level players was crafted and extremely easy to get. Not the same thing at all, especially since you lost all equipment and belongings on death in UO.

Creatures reset because they realize you're pulling them out to somewhere they don't feel safe. Immersion restored.

Equipment is level based because you're not yet skilled enough to use it properly; the enchantments are too powerful for you to control or you don't know enough about heavy armor use to make use of what you're wearing. Immersion restored.

By the way, Morrowind was the outlier. All other Elder Scrolls games are level scaled in one sense or another.

OutcastVP

Anthony45122 wrote: »

You must be playing an old version of skyrim then because I have the legendary edition and if I run too far away they CERTAINLY DO run back and reset.

No they don't reset. There is no auto reset, that would cause an outrage. Go play the game again and see.
For some reason people seem to want this stuff now. I don't understand it at all. For me the appeal with mmo:s when I played them was the fact that you where in participating in another "world." Now there seems to be more like a big playground where people can run around and look at their stats and numbers.

Vikova

OutcastVP wrote: »

No they don't reset. There is no auto reset, that would cause an outrage. Go play the game again and see.
For some reason people seem to want this stuff now. I don't understand it at all. For me the appeal with mmo:s when I played them was the fact that you where in participating in another "world." Now there seems to be more like a big playground where people can run around and look at their stats and numbers.

Playgrounds are fun.

albert_milneb16_ESO2

OutcastVP wrote: »

Anthony45122 wrote: »

You must be playing an old version of skyrim then because I have the legendary edition and if I run too far away they CERTAINLY DO run back and reset.

No they don't reset. There is no auto reset, that would cause an outrage. Go play the game again and see.
For some reason people seem to want this stuff now. I don't understand it at all. For me the appeal with mmo:s when I played them was the fact that you where in participating in another "world." Now there seems to be more like a big playground where people can run around and look at their stats and numbers.

Im sorry but i think MMO`s have progressed a little since UO i have been playing MMO`s since EQ1 and have played almost every mmo available. this should not be a problem. you can try FF11 if you want the creature to follow you to the other side of the planet if you want ( maybe not that far but atleast to zone)

OutcastVP

RakeWorm wrote: »

Playgrounds are fun.

Maybe so, but it defenitely does not feel like a real breathing world. It fees like an artificial, static, non consequential playground, where the fact that there is other players even there does not really matter at all. I would honestly rather play the game completely offline if it was possible. And where the monsters are only there as punching bags to increase your level (instant respawning punching bags) Then again I guess it is better then WoW at least. But the fact that you think this kind of play style is even progressive for the mmo genre is scary.

thedemiseraphb14_ESO

So, I should be able to go into a game, have someone hand me end game gear, and then wander around and do, and kill, anything I want. That sounds boring. Why on earth would I want to go into a dungeon, if I 1, already have the best gear, and 2, KNOW that I will be able to destroy the bosses and enemies without even blinking.

Even in skyrim, you didn't just get all the summons, you had to work your butt off finding them, buying them, getting the expansion ones. If level 1 fresh player can go kill a final boss... everyone would run to the end to kill the final boss.

And also, there IS pvp here, maybe you didn't notice that? So your gear does make a difference outside of PvE as well.

Vikova

OutcastVP wrote: »

RakeWorm wrote: »

Playgrounds are fun.

Maybe so, but it defenitely does not feel like a real breathing world. It fees like an artificial, static, non consequential playground, where the fact that there is other players even there does not really matter at all. I would honestly rather play the game completely offline if it was possible. And where the monsters are only there as punching bags to increase your level (instant respawning punching bags) Then again I guess it is better then WoW at least. But the fact that you think this kind of play style is even progressive for the mmo genre is scary.

Coming from someone who has admitted they haven't been involved in the genre since UO, I hardly think you are qualified to judge where the genre has been. This game is certainly progress for the genre.

Exarch

Show me on the doll where the bad WoW touched you.

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

Another reason for leashing is that in games that didn't have well designed leashing you could typically kite the boss of the dungeon back thru the dungeon till you reached some environmental construct that made it where you take low to very little damage. Leashing keeps the risk/reward level in place. Level gating gear keeps risk/reward in check. If you do not like these systems mmo's are not going to be for you and you should stick to single player offline titles. They are the way mmo's have to be.

Januk

Sad thing being leashing of mobs is actually more accurate of a human mind set then just rushing after someone...

Imagine, you're fighting with a thief who manages to stab you. Non vital but it still hurts like hell, but you manage to fend him off n send him running. Now according to OP any human person would run after this thief until he dropped dead. Screw that I'd send him running then make my way back so I could tend to my wound instead.

OP Mobs are smarter then you!

Lamprey

OutcastVP wrote: »

Ok I am glad you played and liked Ultima Online! I just can't see how these new systems are good. No one would think they where good normally. What is the point of streamlining like this? Is it because new players needs to be hold by the hand and told what they can and can't do or what is the deal? Why do everything have to be so artificial and restricted? It just feels like a big playground for grinding. Where is the suspense and the real sense there is a world you are sharing with others? And that these other players in that world can affect you greatly and there is consequence to what you do, who you become friends with or where you decide to go. It seems to do everything in every way to just take you out of that feeling.

I get what you are saying, I really do. The fact is no-one that has played, say GW2 fondly remembers the little amount of time it took them to get to max level because it was just a poor excuse to play the game a little before PvP. What people do remember is the 6 hours they spent retrieving their corpse from the "fiery pit of despair." Adversity bonds people and grants people affinity with things (like an MMO).

Unfortunately, the reality is that there are far more people that have a limited time to play and have money that those that want that "hard core" experience. Meaning the corporations understand where the revenue stream comes from.

I'm torn in this regard, because I want to overcome the adversity to have a meaningful/memorable experience. However, many MMOs, including ESO, have made it easier (more accessible?) for the more casual player to be able to "pop on" for a short period of time and be able to make meaningful progress. I can see the benefit of this as my time is also limited. However, there isn't much/any adversity to overcome to help endear this game to me.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

kite them in a circle instead, when they run for you, you roll forward and away then keep shooting or use a snare. i am glad there is an aggro range. Kiting is too much like cheese and its not skillful.

Shimond

RakeWorm wrote: »

Coming from someone who has admitted they haven't been involved in the genre since UO, I hardly think you are qualified to judge where the genre has been. This game is certainly progress for the genre.

Agreed though the more he posts the more it seems like he's not as ignorant as he claims of things but rather dislikes where they went.

Well, too bad. Things have changed quite a bit since UO. While I remember parts of it fondly, I definitely remember the frustration of losing EVERYTHING including your house and all its belongings. Realistic? I guess. Fun? Not really.

Yshaar

Thread title is ridiculous again. *sigh*

There are several well laid out reasons for mob leashing.

1. you have to kite them better, train it, give them a shot and try to lure them away if you like, but there most of the time a limit, because otherwise people could lure bosses to towns to let them be killed by guards or harass other players or do some other grief play like blocking quest mobs and stuff. There are reasons and it must be implemented that enemies reset. Deal with it. Combat is not broken, the game has rules.
2. To counter your second point about Level systems I would need to go all the way back to level systems in rpgs like Ad&d. As it seems you are more of a immersive, rp-player type of guy, the short version:
You are not strong enough to wear these boots, the magic is too strong, you are just an unexperienced newcomer. You cannot wield this sword the correct way, even if it is not magical. Get it? You can explain lvl systems quite well. They are not the coolest concept on earth but they work for simpletons and for theory crafters quite well.

One advice:

Try to play this game not with your expectations of how something has to be but within the boundaries of the game. Dwell there, let it flow, you will see it will grow upon you.

Thete

OutcastVP wrote: »

No they don't reset. There is no auto reset, that would cause an outrage. Go play the game again and see.

Maybe you should go and play the game again if it suits you better than this.

mutharex

Yeah go back to wow! Oh wait, sorry! Wrong thread

Conntra

Ultima Online had a strength requirement for plate armor, you needed to be strong enough to use it. 65 str or something.

mutharex

And that wasn't the only limitation. A newly created character had to grind his skills and stats before going everywhere he wanted (I mean if he wanted to survive more than 10 seconds). Every multi player game has some sort of 'gating'

Conntra

UO had it's flaws. Full loot was awesome. It's created a great player economy. You could be a smith or tailor and make loads of money selling replacement gear without ever stepping in a dungeon. It was also a very harsh and unforgiving game. It was nice to put into a world and just run off in any direction without really having any quests.

Evelyn_Nightingale

OutcastVP wrote: »

You are saying the previous Elder Scrolls games are not level based? Why dont the dragons reset their health and respawn if you back up to far in Skyrim? Because that would be awesome right?

But in Skyrim you could go back to a previous save if you died, so no big deal. In an MMO there is no previous save and your armor is damaged upon death. Players need a chance to get away to avoid death. Though, it would be funny to see a herd of mobs following a player sprinting as fast as he can and praying he doesn't run out of stamina.

Vikova

Evelyn_Nightingale wrote: »

Though, it would be funny to see a herd of mobs following a player sprinting as fast as he can and praying he doesn't run out of stamina.

This is horrifying. There have been other games where certain mobs were bugged and never detached from combat. It was like a slasher film, with suddenly seeing Yells go by in chat "OH GOD THEY'RE NOT STOPPING"

mutharex

EQ zone trains FTW!