You going to do something about all the Bots?

Rantog

SiliconShadow wrote: »

Some games do actually include this check, but when packet latency is involved this can become a fine line between booting those with a poor connection, and those who are cheating.

That is the problem. Control of the players' coords should Never be dictated by the client.

The First Graphical MOPRG - the Realm - allowed the Client to decide where the character was, and tell the server that information.
- They figured out quickly that this was a Stupid mistake, and corrected it - until then it allowed players with a simple memory edit to jump past fights, into others' homes, into places they weren't supposed to be able to get to...

That was in the 90s.. even before Ultima Online was an idea.

It is truly frightening - from a game-play perspective - that Zenimax would be making these mistakes, that every MMO in over 20 years has managed to avoid out of a "DUH!" factor.

The client should allow you to move, then REQUEST that motion from the server. If you move forward 10 steps, and the server only agrees to 5, you get bumped back 5 steps.

Unfortunately, the way they Did things is.. you can open a memory editor, find where your actual location is, and modify it to any value that fits somewhere on the map you are on at present - and Send that to the serer, and you Are at that location.

Not only that, they placed Object collision detection client-side as well.

Couple these together, and you can literally make up your own Virtual map, and walk around on it, ignoring the real map.
That is how they do the Invisible harvesting - they aren't invisible, they're just Under the ground you're standing on... harvesting from beneath it.

They have a Lot of fixing to do if they want to get rid of the cheats - but the FIRST step should be applying HUMAN solutions, aka GMs - to remove them Immediately from our game play experience, and then working on software solutions long-term.

Doing it the way they are - software Only, leaving us to suffer - further proves their lack of comprehension in MMOs, and even Having Customers.

N0madS0uL

some of the posts here are really "incredible"...everyone seems to have some agenda i swear when it comes to reporting bots or how they like to say "so called bots". What i mean is that it comes down to many speaking for the bots rather than against them and that because it would be incredible sad or wrong or whatever if (heaven forbid) an "innocent" person gets banned for botting.

Honestly botting is such a plague on this game if an "innocent" gets caught in the crossfire so what (appeal), you cant not have a slip up here and there but before everyone goes crying about the poor guy who got banned (the guy that is almost a bot himself because he keeps farming the same mob over and over and only thing that distinguishes him from a botter is his name makes more sense and there is usually just one of him) just ask yourself why arent there moderators at least in the start zones to get these "people" farming a boss ages on end out of the game?

Lets face it, farming a boss over and over like some of you do is so close to exploiting the system that Zeni should just go and lock out a person every day for doing an instance so people cant exploit the system and ultimately put a dampener on the real gamer/fan who is there to just complete the event and get some loot off the one time he gets to kill the boss, THE END

Oh its nice to see Zeni actually read these posts but sad that they dont put even 1 mitigating factor in place to deter exploiters and botters like making use of moderators in known exploiting areas to instant ban such "players" and deter future behaviour like it.

Rest of you sympathizers please get a grip, you all should be smart enough to tell the difference between a person exploiting and a bot, report them both and mention it in your report description, because the fact is people who "farm" like that should be banned with no chance of appeal really...they all know what they doing and its wrong no matter how you slice it.

gerry70b16_ESO

This is unacceptable, after weeks of seeing bots in caves, it's only getting worse. Just came from 2 level 40ish caves with over 8 bots per mob with names; djafsas.
I cannot even get a hit in to finish the quest let alone get the loot...

treliukb16_ESO

I've seen 5 or 6 players in the early area dungeons in a stacked group with random keyboard mashed names, Example "hdgyge" that are level 10,12+ dressed in the starting prison rags and shackles. Hard to believe these are legitimate players enjoying their adventure in Tameriel.

I've also seen level 10 to 12 players with Actual names in level appropriate gear that are likely just farming the boss.

All Zeni needs to do is randomly spawn the bosses throughout the dungeon, that will drastically cut down on scripted toons standing in one place and the farmers will have to work for their loot.

randomaffliction66

Rantog wrote: »

Every other dungeon you go to right now has a group of bots parked at the boss spawns.
They never move, never speak, and you could set the second-hand on your watch by the timing of their buffs between spawns.

Go into any dungeon right now and see for yourself.

To demonstrate, I poked into the closest dungeon to where I am - Softloam Cavern.
5 rounds of the boss - the following 4 users have been absolute Clockwrok timing.

None have moved a step, they don't respond to spoken chat, and you can drag mobs right in front of their noses and they don't react. They Only react to the spawn of the boss, and in Exactly the same sequence of actions in Exactly the same timing every time.

Nope lol

Noth

hawke21 wrote: »

Is there a explanation for why code can't be written to auto-boot someone using a bot like this? I mean, cmon. if the server is tracking player moving from point a to b, if it gets to b impossibly fast, then its cheating = boot.

They can, your example doesn't do that though. What you example does is stop teleporting or speedhacks (something stopped if they would just use server side authentication on movements). Code to auto ban bots is much more complex and takes much more time to develop and write. They are probably working on such a thing.

b_radd2009b14_ESO wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with farming a boss and nothing wrong with macro's...it's part of the game. Node botting is the real issue. And if you can get a hit off on a boss you're using the wrong ability, use an instant cast like poison arrow and you'll get it every time.

Actually I believe it is against the EULA and TOS to use bots. SO there is something wrong with it.

Skjoldur

krix_ost wrote: »

Vampiresbane wrote: »

This is like using a hammer to sew a dress. You're talking about the wrong tool for the wrong job.

Add-ons are not allowing bots. Outside Macroing and Botting programs are. Some folks think add-ons are still allowing gold sellers to spam chat; Zenimax stripped that function from the API program and yet we still have gold spam in both zone chat and in mail. It's an outside (outside of ESO) program. It's not an add-on. There are no add-ons that can put a static message into zone chat (I wish there was. It would make leading PUGs in Cydrodiil a LOT easier.)

Multiboxing likewise is usually done by just loading the ESO program mutiple times with mutiple accounts and then using an OUTSIDE program to coordinate all of those characters. Multiboxing is not a new concept. Happened in DAoC, Warhammer, WoW, and now here. The only tool Zenimax can use against multiboxing is banning accounts. Multiboxing is different from botting scripts for those that are wondering. You can have both, but they're not the same.

Add-ons are not the problem. Don't you dare start making add-ons the escape-goat and getting rid of ALL the good and useful add-ons that help make this game fun. We have limited functionality with add-ons as it is.

Don't be naive.

I shall use one example of an Addon that can be used to exploit the game....Garkin's Skyshard Locations. You see the problem here? ZeniMax uses the CLIENT to DICTATE to the SERVER what and where happens. Since the CLIENT knows these coordinates then it is a simple matter to INJECT code/data to Teleport to these Coordinates and do 'something' at them.

Each Resource, Skyshard, Boss, NPC....etc....have coordinates and are being manipulated.

What are you talking about? Skyshards only shows icons on your map in your client. Where is the server involved?!

Skjoldur

Citraka wrote: »

Sad thing about this is its so very simple to police, with 1 real person from the company running the game playing in a GM capacity, same with the gold selling spam, watch the chat forward it to whoever has the account blocking authority and have them lock it out and email the owner. Job done, and without the thousands of customer reports to sift through.

Its as if the issue isnt worth the minimum wage job position to them.

Indeed. This would be the way to go until they have a solution they are satisfied with. At the moment I can't see that there is anything being done and this makes me angry. One could accuse them of using spam and bot accounts as an additional source of income, but I don't believe this... yet.

drakanor

jaggedrelief wrote: »

Sadly, people who want to do the right thing and help by reporting are getting frustrated with not knowing if the trouble they go to is really making a difference. And, this leads to less reporting (why bother?) which I'm thinking could lead ZOS to assume they're fixing something that's not being fixed at all.

THIS. Exactly this. Zenimax, do you read? Do something about it. Now.

gerry70b16_ESO

Only 5 pages on this thread? This is getting out of hand. In Coldharbour (lvl 44) I'm seeing level 3s in rags with names; fdialda teleporting to quest givers and teleporting to npcs in that quest to complete. Bot mob farming is at a all time high with a veteran bots doing the tanking, and 7-8 other bots dpsing.

If this isn't being taken care of, I'm going to let my sub run out. I dealt with these farmers on WoW and Eve Online and now here? They will ruin the game, not that it's been ruined already.

8 screenshots of bots teleporting to quest giver.
http://imgur.com/a/GfOfN#0

Alphashado

5 pages on this thread, but there are 100 threads about it. Amazingly everyone of those threads are full of people sayings it's an exaggeration. I would take a very close look at those accounts.

Kyotee0071

GossiTheDog wrote: »

There's a lot of farming going on, but I don't think it's bots. I don't believe a bot is available for ESO yet, for one thing. There are gold sales going on, so I think chances are it's people in an office somewhere, uh, farming.

Lol wow, You don't believe ESO has bots yet? Where have you been?

Kyosji wrote: »

Welp, I say provide a few hours of non-stop video of you watching these 'bots', or you have nothing to back your claim up with. Seems fair.

Sure one second please :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Speed Hacking - watch the video from :15 to :21..hack at :20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

But yeah, all these complaints are just folks making things up. *bonk*

Rantog

Skjoldur wrote: »

krix_ost wrote: »

Vampiresbane wrote: »

This is like using a hammer to sew a dress. You're talking about the wrong tool for the wrong job.

Add-ons are not allowing bots. Outside Macroing and Botting programs are. Some folks think add-ons are still allowing gold sellers to spam chat; Zenimax stripped that function from the API program and yet we still have gold spam in both zone chat and in mail. It's an outside (outside of ESO) program. It's not an add-on. There are no add-ons that can put a static message into zone chat (I wish there was. It would make leading PUGs in Cydrodiil a LOT easier.)

Multiboxing likewise is usually done by just loading the ESO program mutiple times with mutiple accounts and then using an OUTSIDE program to coordinate all of those characters. Multiboxing is not a new concept. Happened in DAoC, Warhammer, WoW, and now here. The only tool Zenimax can use against multiboxing is banning accounts. Multiboxing is different from botting scripts for those that are wondering. You can have both, but they're not the same.

Add-ons are not the problem. Don't you dare start making add-ons the escape-goat and getting rid of ALL the good and useful add-ons that help make this game fun. We have limited functionality with add-ons as it is.

Don't be naive.

I shall use one example of an Addon that can be used to exploit the game....Garkin's Skyshard Locations. You see the problem here? ZeniMax uses the CLIENT to DICTATE to the SERVER what and where happens. Since the CLIENT knows these coordinates then it is a simple matter to INJECT code/data to Teleport to these Coordinates and do 'something' at them.

Each Resource, Skyshard, Boss, NPC....etc....have coordinates and are being manipulated.

What are you talking about? Skyshards only shows icons on your map in your client. Where is the server involved?!

He is under the impression that Addons are what are allowing the teleports and other hacks.

I think it is just a misunderstanding of the terms.


Addon = a Legitimate plugin to the game client, made with the API Zenimax made for us to use, specifically to make such things.
They allow us to change How the information sent to the client is displayed, and how we put information In (eg, keystrokes as buttons etc)

Hacks = Illegal 3rd party creations or modifications to the client.
They allow things like Changing the location of the player in the client, to "warp" them to that other location, or to trick the client into thinking the land map is actually Lower than it is, so that they can walk Beneath the ground (invisible) to harvest, etc.. without being attacked.

Addons are not relevant to the hacks in any way. Some Gold spammers were using a feature in the API early on as part of their spamming, resulting in a change to it, if I read correctly...
But otherwise, the Addon API in no way effects, or is used by, the hacks people are using.

To BOTs - there are no doubt several automation script programs being used, but the most common is probably the same one used on most other MMOs right now.
It doesn't actually communicate with the game at all - to avoid detection. Instead, it simply "reads" the screen to determine what is there, and using scripts.. responds by sending the appropriate signals to your Operating System to indicate you are pressing a key or moving the mouse, etc.
-It cannot be detected by any Coding Zenimax does because it doesn't Talk to the game, it talks to your operating system, .. and the game can't ignore the OS or it simply doesn't function at all.
(another reason they Need Actual In-Game GMs)

Chryos

How many people name a character gfjhjfsjf or ghghdhsg? Yeah they are bots.

brandonedward

Just remember; there are ACTUAL people (like myself) who will sit and farm the dungeon bosses, even if we do not reply to /chat (I'm usually in /guild chat tabs) but obviously I at least, move around, jump, etc etc (which bots do not do).

So don't just /report everyone you see farming a boss just because they do not respond to your chat. Not all of us have it enabled in a certain tab, not all of us really care what you say or how you feel. We're trying to fight the bots for a kill to actually be able to loot, because if we're not on our toes; we won't get any loot at all.


And as far as that "Speed Hacking" video someone posted just above me, that could be due to lag. I'd follow the person around and try to get more of him. Just that one incident/couple seconds couldn't possibly warrant someone as a cheater seems RUBBERBANDING can/has/does happen in games (even though I still haven't seen someone do that in-game yet).

Kyotee0071

@brandonedward It was a speed hack.

Just like this is a port hack : The hack get more obvious around the :16 second mark up..but they sure aren't hiding it. There are actually two bots doing the hack. Watch :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

You'd be kidding yourself is you think the hacks are running rampant. It's just they are speed hacking, Port hacking, and invis hacking and you have to be at the right place at the right time to see the hacks in action.

Etchesketch

Kyotee0071 wrote: »

GossiTheDog wrote: »

There's a lot of farming going on, but I don't think it's bots. I don't believe a bot is available for ESO yet, for one thing. There are gold sales going on, so I think chances are it's people in an office somewhere, uh, farming.

Lol wow, You don't believe ESO has bots yet? Where have you been?

Kyosji wrote: »

Welp, I say provide a few hours of non-stop video of you watching these 'bots', or you have nothing to back your claim up with. Seems fair.

Sure one second please :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Speed Hacking - watch the video from :15 to :21..hack at :20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

But yeah, all these complaints are just folks making things up. *bonk*

LoL perfect

brandonedward

@Kyotee0071‌

Did I say the Teleport hack was or wasn't noticeable? I mentioned the literally; one second of someone rubberbanding to another location. You have 1 incident, 1 second of "funny business" going on which whether or not if he is hacking, shouldn't warrant a ban/suspension unless more video is shown of him, or if a GM would like to follow him.

Look at all the people who were BANNED PERMANENTLY for "gold selling" when they weren't selling anything at all; simple trading or giving gold to people ON THE SAME IP ADDRESS. If one thing that Zenimax has learned, is to NOT ban people in an instant.

Yes, maybe that person is "Speed Hacking", but a one second clip isn't enough. Like I said, I would have followed him to try and get more evidence. Are there people "Speed Hacking" to some extent? Yes, but did this person? I don't know for sure. Could have been lag (Rubberbanding him to that spot), or he could be cheating.

Also, I don't like the word hacking. They aren't hacking. They simply downloaded a program and are clicking a couple buttons; not hacking. They are cheating.

Rantog

brandonedward wrote: »

@Kyotee0071‌
Also, I don't like the word hacking. They aren't hacking. They simply downloaded a program and are clicking a couple buttons; not hacking. They are cheating.

I understand why you see it that way, and when the term first came into usage in regard to computers and their users - it would only apply in the negative sense (a Hack, in the sense you would refer to a Writer fitting the term)

But over time the usage changed, and the current -correct- usage is rather sweeping.

In the example you gave of downloading and using a program created by someone else to manipulate the game in ways it was not intended...

The program downloaded, is a Hack. (n)
The person who created the program is a Hacker. (n*)
The player using it, is a Hack (uncommon but accepted usage). (n. pej)
The Process performed by the software is a Hack. (v, n)
The Act of using the program is Hacking. (v)

*due to the popularity of hacker culture in the 80s and early 90s, the term "hacker" is still not typically listed as a pejorative.


Personally,every time I see the word i think of a code patch that is done while the target framework is executing... technically also a correct usage, but no longer Common usage by any means.

Emily

the node teleporting/hacking is getting ridiculous...I see several bots competing with each other, teleporting from node to node one after another and then poofing away.

Nick_Klaus

Well, this is something.

A GM sends a message when you enter a dungeon and then pops in when you find any bots farming final boss. He/she asks human players to move aside and then kills/wipes all bots.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/0ROq9

SeñorCinco

Nick_Klaus wrote: »

Well, this is something.

A GM sends a message when you enter a dungeon and then pops in when you find any bots farming final boss. He/she asks human players to move aside and then kills/wipes all bots.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/0ROq9

Absolutely brilliant!!

I regret that I can only award one awesome for this.

steveb16_ESO46

treliukb16_ESO wrote: »

I've seen 5 or 6 players in the early area dungeons in a stacked group with random keyboard mashed names, Example "hdgyge" that are level 10,12+ dressed in the starting prison rags and shackles. Hard to believe these are legitimate players enjoying their adventure in Tameriel.

Not 'hard' but impossible. It is impossible to not recognise them on sight as a bot. No need for tests, no need but to swoop in and ban. they stand there is one great stack (or 2 if there is a rival company team present) and move in unison. The real players are the ones futily spamming attacks or crouched on the periphery.

Anyone who argues bots aren't a problem either doesn't play tthe game, is a botter themselves or a self centred idiot who thinks the rest of us are making *** up just for fun.

I was in a stormhaven dungeon yesterday where you could not even hit one of the spawned bosses as it spawned in the middle of a giant cluster of bots. I don't know why but you just couldn't touch it. Not even by spamming an AOE.

It's beyond out of control. We're in a bot meltdown now. and i notice the gold spammers are back in chat and email after a day's respite.

ZMO need to think of implementing a nuclear option. Boss drops loot 1 time for a character in 24 hours and any hit gets loot.

Randomly spawning resource modules.

God knows how you deal with npc farming outside. But I'd stop mailing from anywhere but mailboxes like lotro does so inventories fill up, make right-clicking option for quick reporting of bots and have a 24/7 team of gm's with tools to insta-ban the obvious bots. And they really are obvious.

I'd give players a drag box to enable reporting whole stacks.

It is time to get completely draconian.

steveb16_ESO46

Emily wrote: »

the node teleporting/hacking is getting ridiculous...I see several bots competing with each other, teleporting from node to node one after another and then poofing away.

How the hell does the ESO code even allow this? Find out how it's done and then stop it.

flamecloud

Now that is a great change that I can support. It definitely is a step in the proper direction. Should put 2 to 3 gms per zone to defend players rights. I would love to be a gm for a few just to literally po the bot people for personal amusement.

steveb16_ESO46

Nick_Klaus wrote: »

Well, this is something.

A GM sends a message when you enter a dungeon and then pops in when you find any bots farming final boss. He/she asks human players to move aside and then kills/wipes all bots.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/0ROq9

If this really happened then AWESOME.

I'd pay money to see that.

(Oh wait - i do already.)

Zolyok

Nick_Klaus wrote: »

Well, this is something.

A GM sends a message when you enter a dungeon and then pops in when you find any bots farming final boss. He/she asks human players to move aside and then kills/wipes all bots.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/0ROq9

That's a good step hope to see more of that.
But that's only temporary, like steveb16_ESO46 said :
How the hell does the ESO code even allow this? Find out how it's done and then stop it.

Laerian

Nick_Klaus wrote: »

Well, this is something.

A GM sends a message when you enter a dungeon and then pops in when you find any bots farming final boss. He/she asks human players to move aside and then kills/wipes all bots.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/0ROq9

That's the way!!! take your awesome for bringing us some hope.

Emily

I can't compete with this..

There are at least 30 of them stacked into each other..and my instant cast abilities spammed do not even get me dungeon completion..I've been here in Ilesan for 45 minutes. Ugh.

starkerealm

Nick_Klaus wrote: »

Well, this is something.

A GM sends a message when you enter a dungeon and then pops in when you find any bots farming final boss. He/she asks human players to move aside and then kills/wipes all bots.

Proof: http://imgur.com/a/0ROq9

Okay... a little off topic, but, does anyone know what the addons that player's running are?