Is werewolf useless?

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

in a way ultimate generation is a form of cooldown and considering the prerequisite to use it you might as well say you have a minimum cooldown of 30 minute

Mustaklaki

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

in a way ultimate generation is a form of cooldown and considering the prerequisite to use it you might as well say you have a minimum cooldown of 30 minute

I see what you mean. Not 30 minutes, though. You get the passive that regenerates Ultimate and it's about 5-10, and I'm sure it will get faster if you morph your Ultimate to Pack Leader, giving everyone around you increased ultimate gains.

Bretentious

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter. It would require a little bit of work to redo some of the skills, namely the ones that add more time to your transform, but it would allow you to use it when you wanted without worrying about wasting your 30 seconds of awesome or having to build up 1000 ultimate at a time.

I kind of doubt that they'd redo so much of the skill line at this point in the game, but I like the idea.

Mustaklaki

Bretentious wrote: »

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter. It would require a little bit of work to redo some of the skills, namely the ones that add more time to your transform, but it would allow you to use it when you wanted without worrying about wasting your 30 seconds of awesome or having to build up 1000 ultimate at a time.

I kind of doubt that they'd redo so much of the skill line at this point in the game, but I like the idea.

That's a great idea.

Darkholynova

Bretentious wrote: »

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter.

This.

No activation cost, just a meter that builds up to 1000 Ultimate points. At any time you can morph and start spending those ultimate points on Werewolf abilities. Every pounce and every roar is going to cost you 200-300 ultimate. While in this form you can't gain any ultimate. Devour would be a heal that you channel while eating a victim, but taking damage would interrupt it and it's on a 30 second cool down.

Top it off by adding a rather large ultimate dump dps ability in WW form. Some kind WW equivalent of the dual wielding Flurry attack for 500+ ultimate. This way you're tempted to dump your built up Ultimate in exchange for a dps boost over the mediocre melee dps or to use this form for some utility (aoe disorient/fear, leaping to close distances and stun).

You could activate it and remain in werewolf indefinitely, BUT you'd have to avoid using any abilities because you'd run out of Ultimate and turn back. This wouldn't really be over powered because you'd be a gimp melee with no abilities.

Yeah it sounds pretty overpowered to have an ultimate that gives you a dps boost OR a variety of utility abilities... but you also take 15% more damage from pretty much everyone at max level, get stunned easily by anyone with silver bolts, and that poison vulnerability is nothing to laugh at.

Compare that to the passives vampires get without having to rely on a clunky ultimate ability: increased stamina/magicka regen, 30-50% damage reduction at low health, faster movement/stealth at night. Plus they can utilize any of their abilities in conjunction WITH their class/weapon/etc abilities while werewolves have to transform and lose their regular skills.

MasterLanz

Mustaklaki wrote: »

2. Werewolf's passives only work in Werewolf form, besides the one that generates ultimate faster.

That only works on the werewolf ultimate. It requires having Beast Form as your slotted ult for it to be in effect.

Literally NONE of the werewolf skills have any effect on the character unrelated to beast form. They all only work in relation to the ult.

Girault

Darkholynova wrote: »

Bretentious wrote: »

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter.

This.

No activation cost, just a meter that builds up to 1000 Ultimate points. At any time you can morph and start spending those ultimate points on Werewolf abilities. Every pounce and every roar is going to cost you 200-300 ultimate. While in this form you can't gain any ultimate. Devour would be a heal that you channel while eating a victim, but taking damage would interrupt it and it's on a 30 second cool down.

Top it off by adding a rather large ultimate dump dps ability in WW form. Some kind WW equivalent of the dual wielding Flurry attack for 500+ ultimate. This way you're tempted to dump your built up Ultimate in exchange for a dps boost over the mediocre melee dps or to use this form for some utility (aoe disorient/fear, leaping to close distances and stun).

You could activate it and remain in werewolf indefinitely, BUT you'd have to avoid using any abilities because you'd run out of Ultimate and turn back. This wouldn't really be over powered because you'd be a gimp melee with no abilities.

I would suggest making Devour give you a heal and a small Ultimate point gain if it's going to have a fairly long cooldown. Not more than enough for one or two more ability uses, as that would be too strong.
But I'd be happy just to have a usable werewolf form waiting for me when I finally find one to bite me.

MasterLanz

Devour does heal. It's nothing super-impressive, but between that and passive regen outside of combat, by the time you're done devouring, your health is typically full.

Mustaklaki

MasterLanz wrote: »

Devour does heal. It's nothing super-impressive, but between that and passive regen outside of combat, by the time you're done devouring, your health is typically full.

True, trouble is though you get interrupted while trying to devour, which sucks. A heal you could use in a fight would be nice. I'm sure everyone's build has at least some sort of heal, and then you go into Werewolf form and you have nothing.

MasterLanz

Yeah, that was one of my problems with werewolf on the terms of sustainability and why I feel it is NOT useful against bosses. You have extra health and armor, and you heal up after each fight, but if you pull too much or take too long to kill your target, you wind up in serious trouble really quickly. If you can kill your targets before you die (and Devour doesn't break and lets you actually feed) you're fairly well off.

It has no attrition. It's pure burst/juggernaut stuff, and the problem with that is that it's not destructive enough to be better at being a juggernaut than a heavy-armor 2h character.
edit: It's also hardly worth 1,000 ult for a few seconds of being a juggernaut against normal pulls of enemies.

Wakkatata

Mustaklaki wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

Devour does heal. It's nothing super-impressive, but between that and passive regen outside of combat, by the time you're done devouring, your health is typically full.

True, trouble is though you get interrupted while trying to devour, which sucks. A heal you could use in a fight would be nice. I'm sure everyone's build has at least some sort of heal, and then you go into Werewolf form and you have nothing.

I don't think some of you understand how devour works. This ability, is OVERPOWERED, like "thereisnospoon" it's ridiculous. Only in PvE areas where you have a reliable amount of bodies to devour. (It works on far more than just humanoids. Examples: Mudcrabs, tigers, etc.)

Here's what I've discovered.
1. Devour has 0 cooldown.

2. It never degrades (it gives you the same amount of time in form no matter how much you use it)

3. It gives you everything (time and health) at the beginning of the animation.

4. It can be used while moving, not sprinting.

5. A single "nomable" body can be "nommed" as long as it remains on the ground.

6. It gives you infinite Form sustainability in PvE area's with bodies you can Devour.


Everything I just listed is 100% true and tested. I spent 2+ hrs in Form at one time yesterday, farming Sea Vipers with it. Werewolf Transformation makes you an overpowered beast in PvE, I haven't tested PvP with it, but it sounds like PvP might be a different story due to the difficulty in building ultimate.

Mustaklaki

Pretty sure you version is bugged, then. Or maybe everyone else's is, I don't know anymore. Devour gets harder and harder to maintain over time. You can't use it in battles because you get interrupted on taking damage. You can't use it while moving (That doesn't even make sense). It having no cooldown isn't an argument because nothing has a cooldown in this game. And it does not give time and HP at the beginning. The bodies get those veins of blood wrapping all around them to indicate you need to eat, and they only go away once you have finished devouring.

I understand you say you've been in form for over 2 hours, but I'm pretty certain that's just not possible. I think you're just bugged, alongside you saying Devour can be "used while moving", whilst moving even the slightest stops the ability. If that is working as intended, that's just strange. Could you record some footage of this phenomenon?

Did you morph your form? I've never tried Berserker wolf.

Wakkatata

I've figured it out actually. Devour is bugged, and it works for everyone not just me. It DOES give you the time at the very beginning of the animation, it CAN be used while moving, and it absolutely does NOT get harder to maintain. It is possible to stay in form for two hours, I've done it several times now, so have my two buddies. The effect of devour happens as soon as you press X, if you have addons that change the view of your health stamina and magicka, turn them off and you can see the WW timer beneath your Magicka bar. If you move, before the animation is over, it doesn't activate the cooldown for Devour, and can continue doing it.

That being said. The bug and exploit is going on the forums, and I won't be using it anymore. I'll try to record something and show you before I post the Bug Report

Mustaklaki

Hmm, it must be pretty recent. I haven't used Werewolf in a couple of days because I morphed into Pack Leader, which is utterly useless and kicks you out of the form in 10 seconds. But my time before then I could only stay in form a few minutes. I'll disable these addons and take a look, though I doubt I can do much because you know... Pack Leader and all.

Darkholynova

I'm really interested to find out what skills affect you while you're in werewolf form. For example: My racial skill that increases crit rate of melee attacks, does this work on werewolf? Armor skill? Passives? I've heard weapon power doesn't, but weapon enchantment might?

And since WW damage is based on your stamina... I wonder what a fully stamina built, stamina armor boosted WW using really good stam food and crit/damage potions might do in terms of damage.

Mustaklaki

Darkholynova wrote: »

I'm really interested to find out what skills affect you while you're in werewolf form. For example: My racial skill that increases crit rate of melee attacks, does this work on werewolf? Armor skill? Passives? I've heard weapon power doesn't, but weapon enchantment might?

And since WW damage is based on your stamina... I wonder what a fully stamina built, stamina armor boosted WW using really good stam food and crit/damage potions might do in terms of damage.

I've notice the Flame effect from my bow get put on enemies while I'm in Werewolf form. Not sure if it actually does damage, but the effect is there.

You can do a ton of DPS as Werewolf. Out of form I do 85, but in form I do 140 or something, and it attacks much faster. I've 1-hit mobs with the charge-up attack before. I think a lot of the people saying it does bad damage are people who are Magicka/HP focused builds, since WW damage stacks with Max Stamina. They could also be new WWs, it really doesn't do a lot of damage until you get the +20% Stamina passive. It has problems that aren't the damage, and those problems are what make it not as good as it should be.

MasterLanz

Devour does work like Wakkataka says, but the ratio gain isn't very good. I'm not sure what you were doing to get it to do that, but Devour only gives maybe less than 1/5th of the timer back when you use it and the heal is a heal over time, so resetting it a bunch isn't helping.

I'll test it out and see how far I can push the form though. I knew that devour gives you a bit of time when you start it, but it seems that's just to keep you in form if you were just about to lose it. You get something like half the bar back when you complete the devour action.

edit: Okay, that spam-devour thing works and is amazing. It's obviously a bug, but with how badly Zenimax messed up werewolf, I have no problem with using one bug to counter another. I did a whole public dungeon as werewolf and was able to sustain the form as long as I felt like sustaining it.

I've also determined that going idle for a few minutes causes your ult to reset. If you're playing and fighting without taking any breaks, you should be okay, but if you afk for like 5 minutes or so, it'll be back at 0.

Mustaklaki

Ah, I understand the issue now.
Basically, you're supposed to Devour by letting the animation work fully.
Not letting it go completely will still give you the benefits of feeding. ONLY when feeding normally will a cooldown be placed on feeding.
So, you can effectively "cheat" by interrupting your feeds and feeding on the same corpse over and over again. I find it hard to believe this was intended, and I'm sure it will be fixed at some point.

But yes, you can stay in werewolf form for a very long time because of this.

Khazaad

MasterLanz wrote: »

So far the only real value werewolf offers is the fact that I can sell bites to people who don't realize what they're about to do to their characters. It's all very disappointing. I don't really care that it's not very powerful at all, but I'd like to actually be able to use it sometimes.

The rueful thoughts of a meth dealer at the end of a hard day slingin drugs outside a middle school.

MasterLanz

Mustaklaki wrote: »

Ah, I understand the issue now.
Basically, you're supposed to Devour by letting the animation work fully.
Not letting it go completely will still give you the benefits of feeding. ONLY when feeding normally will a cooldown be placed on feeding.
So, you can effectively "cheat" by interrupting your feeds and feeding on the same corpse over and over again. I find it hard to believe this was intended, and I'm sure it will be fixed at some point.

But yes, you can stay in werewolf form for a very long time because of this.

It doesn't quite give you the full benefits of feeding. The healing is very minor (almost negligible) and it only restores maybe 1/10th of the bar. I think the initial burst of timer and health you get when you start feeding is just meant to sustain you while you feed in case you were just about to lose your form. By skipping the full feeding and using only the initial burst, you don't receive the full benefits of the feed, but it takes almost as long to just mash the key and do a bunch of short feeds as it does to do a full feed, so the 'glitch' method is overall better.

I don't think there are any benefits to completing a devour. In Skyrim you had to devour to get your werewolf exp, but I didn't notice any extra exp from devouring enemies, and none of the werewolf skills seem to gain anything from it.

Wakkatata

I think Werewolf and Vampire skill lines are the first things I've seen in the game that urgently need an overhaul. The design teams in charge of them need to be replaced, and they just need to be completely reworked. They're useless in PvP, especially WW because you never get enough ultimate to use the Transformation anyways, there are multiple bugs, including the Pounce bug and the Devour bug. Not to mention the deal breaking bug with Leader of the Pack. They don't give enough to the character to warrant ever using them over a real ultimate, aside from if you're grinding out your levels on packs of mobs in a rotation around an area.

The Werewolf skill line needs more active abilities, Pounce animation needs to be optimized, running animation needs optimization (sprinting on all fours), and Roar needs to cause enemies to cower in fear instead of running away (it's annoying trying to chase down four mobs as a melee fighter). There are several idea's already on the forums already about how to fix the "ultimate" problem, we just need to get ZOS in on this.

I haven't made a character with Vampirism yet, so I can't say much about it, thought I have read some zone chat, and not much of it is good.

Thoughts?

Mustaklaki

The Soul Magic ultimate costs 150, 1/6th of the WW cost. At my current rank, it deals 1200 damage over 4 seconds. That's insanity.
I'd love to use that ult. But I also really like Werewolf. They need to lower its ultimate cost, fair and square. By the time you get it up in PvE, your quest is finished or the public dungeon you ran is over. And in PvP, you'll just never get it up because the ultimate points will reset while you're traveling since that's what most of Cyrodiil is.
Werewolf is beast mode though, I can do so much damage with it. I'd just like to use it more often.

Brittany_Joy

Darkholynova wrote: »

Bretentious wrote: »

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter.

This.

No activation cost, just a meter that builds up to 1000 Ultimate points. At any time you can morph and start spending those ultimate points on Werewolf abilities. Every pounce and every roar is going to cost you 200-300 ultimate. While in this form you can't gain any ultimate. Devour would be a heal that you channel while eating a victim, but taking damage would interrupt it and it's on a 30 second cool down.

Top it off by adding a rather large ultimate dump dps ability in WW form. Some kind WW equivalent of the dual wielding Flurry attack for 500+ ultimate. This way you're tempted to dump your built up Ultimate in exchange for a dps boost over the mediocre melee dps or to use this form for some utility (aoe disorient/fear, leaping to close distances and stun).

You could activate it and remain in werewolf indefinitely, BUT you'd have to avoid using any abilities because you'd run out of Ultimate and turn back. This wouldn't really be over powered because you'd be a gimp melee with no abilities.

Yeah it sounds pretty overpowered to have an ultimate that gives you a dps boost OR a variety of utility abilities... but you also take 15% more damage from pretty much everyone at max level, get stunned easily by anyone with silver bolts, and that poison vulnerability is nothing to laugh at.

Compare that to the passives vampires get without having to rely on a clunky ultimate ability: increased stamina/magicka regen, 30-50% damage reduction at low health, faster movement/stealth at night. Plus they can utilize any of their abilities in conjunction WITH their class/weapon/etc abilities while werewolves have to transform and lose their regular skills.

Completely terrible suggestion, this change would make werewolves even worse. 200/925 is only 4 roars.

Wakkatata

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Darkholynova wrote: »

Bretentious wrote: »

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter.

This.

No activation cost, just a meter that builds up to 1000 Ultimate points. At any time you can morph and start spending those ultimate points on Werewolf abilities. Every pounce and every roar is going to cost you 200-300 ultimate. While in this form you can't gain any ultimate. Devour would be a heal that you channel while eating a victim, but taking damage would interrupt it and it's on a 30 second cool down.

Top it off by adding a rather large ultimate dump dps ability in WW form. Some kind WW equivalent of the dual wielding Flurry attack for 500+ ultimate. This way you're tempted to dump your built up Ultimate in exchange for a dps boost over the mediocre melee dps or to use this form for some utility (aoe disorient/fear, leaping to close distances and stun).

You could activate it and remain in werewolf indefinitely, BUT you'd have to avoid using any abilities because you'd run out of Ultimate and turn back. This wouldn't really be over powered because you'd be a gimp melee with no abilities.

Yeah it sounds pretty overpowered to have an ultimate that gives you a dps boost OR a variety of utility abilities... but you also take 15% more damage from pretty much everyone at max level, get stunned easily by anyone with silver bolts, and that poison vulnerability is nothing to laugh at.

Compare that to the passives vampires get without having to rely on a clunky ultimate ability: increased stamina/magicka regen, 30-50% damage reduction at low health, faster movement/stealth at night. Plus they can utilize any of their abilities in conjunction WITH their class/weapon/etc abilities while werewolves have to transform and lose their regular skills.

Completely terrible suggestion, this change would make werewolves even worse. 200/925 is only 4 roars.

How about causing your left click attacks to generate Ultimate? So you could stay in form indefinitely, so long as you didn't spam Roar or Pounce by building Ultimate with normal attacks. Also, turn Devour into an ultimate building ability, or a healing ability.

Brittany_Joy

I agree that Werewolves need to be fixed. Vampires are vamps 100% of the time so why can't werewolves get a togglable werewolf form so I can shapeshift when I want for how long I want and cancel my shapeshift when it is necessary. The ultimate cost is too much and a hindrance in PvP.

Or at least reduce the werewolf's ultimate to 300 and improve the time given by devour. Also a werewolf should be able to dodge and CC break just like everyone else because I can get CC chained and then suffer my own CC, which is the time spent stunned to turn back into human form.

The werewolf form should be so powerful that it encourages enemies to prioritize a werewolf's weakness. Currently werewolves are very weak and have tons of weaknesses and no positives.

MasterLanz

Wakkatata wrote: »

How about causing your left click attacks to generate Ultimate? So you could stay in form indefinitely, so long as you didn't spam Roar or Pounce by building Ultimate with normal attacks. Also, turn Devour into an ultimate building ability, or a healing ability.

It already does this. I've been able to build up a whole ultimate bar before my beast form wore off. The problem is that your ultimate resets when you shift back, which is yet another downside to it.

Even without exploiting any bugs, a good run in WW would give you half an ultimate bar back, and that would make it easier to hop into form again.

If they reduced WW cost by 200-300, allowed ult to build up in WW form (and persist when you shift back), and remove the bugs that cause you to drop your ult spontaneously, I would be okay with it. The build I'm using makes WW viable, but it's also a very restrictive build, and I would like to be able to use werewolf as something that adds to the character, rather than have to build the character around being a werewolf.

Wakkatata

My suggestion was in conjunction with the other one, where running out of your ultimate was what kicked you out of WW form.

Brittany_Joy

Wakkatata wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Darkholynova wrote: »

Bretentious wrote: »

I haven't gotten either vampire or werewolf, so I may be way off on this, but it sounds like werewolf form might be better if it worked like the Sorcerer lightning ultimate does. Basically you toggle werewolf form on and every attack removes some of your ultimate meter.

This.

No activation cost, just a meter that builds up to 1000 Ultimate points. At any time you can morph and start spending those ultimate points on Werewolf abilities. Every pounce and every roar is going to cost you 200-300 ultimate. While in this form you can't gain any ultimate. Devour would be a heal that you channel while eating a victim, but taking damage would interrupt it and it's on a 30 second cool down.

Top it off by adding a rather large ultimate dump dps ability in WW form. Some kind WW equivalent of the dual wielding Flurry attack for 500+ ultimate. This way you're tempted to dump your built up Ultimate in exchange for a dps boost over the mediocre melee dps or to use this form for some utility (aoe disorient/fear, leaping to close distances and stun).

You could activate it and remain in werewolf indefinitely, BUT you'd have to avoid using any abilities because you'd run out of Ultimate and turn back. This wouldn't really be over powered because you'd be a gimp melee with no abilities.

Yeah it sounds pretty overpowered to have an ultimate that gives you a dps boost OR a variety of utility abilities... but you also take 15% more damage from pretty much everyone at max level, get stunned easily by anyone with silver bolts, and that poison vulnerability is nothing to laugh at.

Compare that to the passives vampires get without having to rely on a clunky ultimate ability: increased stamina/magicka regen, 30-50% damage reduction at low health, faster movement/stealth at night. Plus they can utilize any of their abilities in conjunction WITH their class/weapon/etc abilities while werewolves have to transform and lose their regular skills.

Completely terrible suggestion, this change would make werewolves even worse. 200/925 is only 4 roars.

How about causing your left click attacks to generate Ultimate? So you could stay in form indefinitely, so long as you didn't spam Roar or Pounce by building Ultimate with normal attacks. Also, turn Devour into an ultimate building ability, or a healing ability.

Yeah that is more better. Devour should definitely give a better heal and perhaps a shield.

Wakkatata

Or even make devour send you into a frenzy for 45 seconds, faster attack and move speed.

Kadigan

I don't think the werewolves and vampires should have been a part of the game at release, to be honest. From everything I've seen regarding them, they don't seem to be ready. Not to mention, from a sales perspective, if the developers had given them a bit more work and then released them as additional content later on, they could have enticed older players to renew their subscriptions in order to experience the change in content and different playstyle, such as I expect will be the case with whatever they're doing with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. Not well thought out at all, IMO.