Is werewolf useless?

MasterLanz

I got my Beast Form earlier today. I grinded it up to rank 6 and handed off a bite to someone for 40k.

Since then I've been doing a bunch of questing and leveling (28 currently) for a few hours, and what has the impact of being a werewolf had on my character?

Absolutely nothing. Other than not having an Ultimate.

I'm not entirely sure what people were picturing when they decided that a cost:1,000 ultimate was a good idea, but here is what a 1000 ult actually does: I did a dark anchor on my level. I'm Fighter's Guild with Silver Bolts and Funnel Health, so I can toss out a lot of quick ranged attacks all over the place, and I can get at least one hit in on every enemy that drops in the anchor. Even with banish the wicked, combined with getting at least one hit in on every daedra that dropped and doing the entire anchor, I got about 75% of my ult charged. Never got to actually use it.

It gets better. Any time you do a zone transition, or use a waypoint, your ultimate resets back to zero. Got your wolf form almost charged but went into a house to hand in your quest? Start over. Jump into a wayshrine to cover some ground? Start over. Between how horribly-long the charge time is for the ult combined with it resetting every time you go through a load screen, the only time I've ever been able to actually use Beast Form is when I went out of my way to grind mobs and charge it up so I could enjoy about 30 seconds of auto-attacks that are a bit more powerful than my current auto-attacks at the cost of losing everything else my character does.

Worst of all, I can't even really say it's more powerful than my character is normally. It hits a little bit harder but it dies way faster. And, yes, I know it scales off stamina. This is on a 14 health / 13 stamina character.

So now I have to decide if the stamina passive is worth a 50% poison weakness and vulnerability to fighter's guild skills, because the beast form itself is pretty darn useless.

So far the only real value werewolf offers is the fact that I can sell bites to people who don't realize what they're about to do to their characters. It's all very disappointing. I don't really care that it's not very powerful at all, but I'd like to actually be able to use it sometimes.

Aethiopeia

Well many of the people i know gets the werewolf for its blood rage passive. Charges up your other ultimates like a charm, especially in cyrodiil. And this is done when your character is in its humanoid form. So see it as a tiny buff for your toon?

godlike_brub17_ESO

I think they want Werewolf to be more of a RP thing... dunno! He is just fun... but totally useless! I use 750 Ult to transform in something weaker!

Sanspoof

MasterLanz wrote: »

It gets better. Any time you do a zone transition, or use a waypoint, your ultimate resets back to zero. Got your wolf form almost charged but went into a house to hand in your quest? Start over. Jump into a wayshrine to cover some ground? Start over.

This is a bit weird. Are you sure it isn't a bug?

Aethiopeia

Sanspoof wrote: »

MasterLanz wrote: »

It gets better. Any time you do a zone transition, or use a waypoint, your ultimate resets back to zero. Got your wolf form almost charged but went into a house to hand in your quest? Start over. Jump into a wayshrine to cover some ground? Start over.

This is a bit weird. Are you sure it isn't a bug?

And yeah this. You gotta check again op. Ive the werewolf too and i can change map, enter houses and it doesnt reset

fambaab16_ESO

How do you know that its weaker when youre not even done leveling. Like how I see it werewolf becomes very strong when theres at least 5 together.
You should try disorientation out. Then you might reveal the true power of a zerk wolf squad running through enemy lines halting everything and killing everything. At least in theory.
Also morphed versions give you more benefits.
Plus 1 thing I only found out today. I pounced on a mob which was way over my head on a rock. If I am not mistaken the War passive which increases your ranges could increase the range of pounce that lot that you can actually jump onto keep walls onto enemies.
Will need to test that out though.

Klimarov

i can say the same about vamps, i'm level 3 vamp and i don't feel any stronger than a normal character. Day/night phase doesn't affects you, feeding doesn't makes you any stronger/weaker, the regen is nearly unseen any ways. Only thing i do really notice is the fire debuff, fire spells kill be much much faster. i'd say vamp need a little buff too, specially be stronger at night. currently i don't think you're stronger at night than at day.

Klimarov

i can say the same about vamps, i'm level 3 vamp and i don't feel any stronger than a normal character. Day/night phase doesn't affects you, feeding doesn't makes you any stronger/weaker, the regen is nearly unseen any ways. Only thing i do really notice is the fire debuff, fire spells kill be much much faster. i'd say vamp need a little buff too, specially be stronger at night. currently i don't think you're stronger at night than at day.

McJigg

The mistake is in the thinking that a werewolf or vampire should be more powerful, because that is false. If it were true, it would be in the best interest of everyone to become one of the two rather then a choice, similar to picking between two handed weapons and dual wielding.

I'll be working towards werewolf myself, if the proper time is now then that's where I'll go when the servers are up. But I don't expect to be any stronger. Level 26 and I still haven't taken an ultimate move because I've known that's where transform goes.

My question however, do the werewolf actives appear on a new bar when you transform? Or do they need to be on your normal bar limiting you to 3 abilities?

Ravinsild

Klimarov wrote: »

i can say the same about vamps, i'm level 3 vamp and i don't feel any stronger than a normal character. Day/night phase doesn't affects you, feeding doesn't makes you any stronger/weaker, the regen is nearly unseen any ways. Only thing i do really notice is the fire debuff, fire spells kill be much much faster. i'd say vamp need a little buff too, specially be stronger at night. currently i don't think you're stronger at night than at day.

As a rank 10 level 44 vampire I can tell you that you are dead wrong. I am an Assassin/Shadow Dual Wield Nightblade and the speed increase to sneaking, the damage mitigation below 50% HP, the Stam and Magic recovery increased by 10% as well as the buffed HP regen in later forms, along side the 3 second stun and drain with the Ultimate that makes me invisible all combine with my Class Skills and Weapon Skills to make my character OBSCENELY powerful.

I cannot wait to bring this monster to cyrodiil.

devinfreeseb14_ESO

McJigg wrote: »

My question however, do the werewolf actives appear on a new bar when you transform? Or do they need to be on your normal bar limiting you to 3 abilities?

They appear on a new bar after you transform so you don't lose any slots on your normal bar.

ZiRM

I'm interested in werewolf and vampire but until they make it worth my while I won't be getting either of them. I can RP them without any negative side effects anyways. The skills etc. are meh and they both need som tender loving care.

Ker.Rakb16_ESO

Ravinsild wrote: »

I cannot wait to bring this monster to cyrodiil.

Have fun getting knocked on your ass by everybody with Silver Bolts. And taking 15% more damage from everybody with the anti-daedra passive.

Neutronium_Dragon

(Great. The forum appears to be eating posts. Trying again...)

The issue with Ultimate disappearing is a general one. It's just a LOT more obvious with the werewolf given how much of it you need to build.

Unfortunately, the design of the werewolf seems to be aiming for "thematically cool in a story sense" over "practical in a gameplay environment". Yes, some of this (the short-timer transformation, in particular) was copied from Skyrim, but it was just as impractical in Skyrim; the only way it became functional there was to mod the living daylights out of it, but that's not an option in TESO.

Bretentious

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

(Great. The forum appears to be eating posts. Trying again...)

The issue with Ultimate disappearing is a general one. It's just a LOT more obvious with the werewolf given how much of it you need to build.

Unfortunately, the design of the werewolf seems to be aiming for "thematically cool in a story sense" over "practical in a gameplay environment". Yes, some of this (the short-timer transformation, in particular) was copied from Skyrim, but it was just as impractical in Skyrim; the only way it became functional there was to mod the living daylights out of it, but that's not an option in TESO.

This. In Skyrim you almost always took a hit to your armor for transforming and at later levels your damage generally decreased as well. The Dawnguard perks helped with it, but it was ultimately just a way to become immune to disease.

For ESO, I'm of the impression that vampire is working more or less as intended. You give a bit and you get a bit for it, along the lines for any other skill line. The werewolf form should be extremely powerful while it's up considering that you give up an ultimate ability just to make use of it, though.

Fixing the ultimate resetting bug should help with getting to use it, but if the form itself isn't really any stronger than your normal form then that's a big problem.

Neutronium_Dragon

McJigg wrote: »

The mistake is in the thinking that a werewolf or vampire should be more powerful, because that is false. If it were true, it would be in the best interest of everyone to become one of the two rather then a choice, similar to picking between two handed weapons and dual wielding.

The choice shouldn't leave the character more powerful. The werewolf transformation itself, should be pretty darned impressive. It's an ultimate that you can only use 1/4 to 1/5 as often (IF the random-reset issue doesn't nail you), that saddles you with significant vulnerabilities merely for having the option of using it, and that cuts you off from all of your normal abilities while it's active (something that the others don't do). Add to this the issue of it wearing off at bad times (that you can't really predict because there's no forewarning). That's a pretty big cost, and the benefits had better be worth it.

Right now they don't seem to be - the best use of the line is to passively build power more quickly for other ultimates, not to actually be a werewolf in either a thematic or mechanical sense. That's not right.

Brizz

No one mentioning the awful... "Speed Walk?" animation of the warewolf... running? It would be worth it for me if it LOOKED good.... but it looks sooo bad.

MasterLanz

Aethiopeia wrote: »

Well many of the people i know gets the werewolf for its blood rage passive. Charges up your other ultimates like a charm, especially in cyrodiil. And this is done when your character is in its humanoid form. So see it as a tiny buff for your toon?

50% poison weakness for 6 ult every 3 seconds while taking damage? I suppose if you only PVE and you're mainly a tank or close-range DPS that can be worth it. Seems like an awful lot of work for such a small benefit, though.

Sanspoof wrote: »

This is a bit weird. Are you sure it isn't a bug?

Oh, it's absolutely a bug. But with the game teeming in bugs, will Zenimax fix this bug any time soon? I won't hold my breath.

Also, it's not the only bug. The animations are glitchy and there is this horrible bug where using Werewolf Pounce can get you stuck in the kneeling animation, unable to attack, defend or do anything and functionally wasting the transformation you just spent the last whatever amount of time charging up.

McJigg wrote: »

The mistake is in the thinking that a werewolf or vampire should be more powerful, because that is false. If it were true, it would be in the best interest of everyone to become one of the two rather then a choice, similar to picking between two handed weapons and dual wielding.

I'll be working towards werewolf myself, if the proper time is now then that's where I'll go when the servers are up. But I don't expect to be any stronger. Level 26 and I still haven't taken an ultimate move because I've known that's where transform goes.

My question however, do the werewolf actives appear on a new bar when you transform? Or do they need to be on your normal bar limiting you to 3 abilities?

They should be more powerful; they come with big drawbacks and weaknessess, on the assumption that this offsets some interesting strengths. I can't speak for vampires, but for werewolves, those strengths are almost nonexistent. The ult takes so much time to charge up that it's almost totally impractical, the duration and benefit of the ult doesn't come anywhere close to being worth 1,000 ultimate.

Again, I don't even care about it being more powerful, I just want to be able to use the damn thing without having to stop everything I'm doing and grind mobs to charge it up.

Neutronium_Dragon wrote: »

The choice shouldn't leave the character more powerful. The werewolf transformation itself, should be pretty darned impressive. It's an ultimate that you can only use 1/4 to 1/5 as often (IF the random-reset issue doesn't nail you), that saddles you with significant vulnerabilities merely for having the option of using it, and that cuts you off from all of your normal abilities while it's active (something that the others don't do). Add to this the issue of it wearing off at bad times (that you can't really predict because there's no forewarning). That's a pretty big cost, and the benefits had better be worth it.

Right now they don't seem to be - the best use of the line is to passively build power more quickly for other ultimates, not to actually be a werewolf in either a thematic or mechanical sense. That's not right.

You do actually know when it wears off. When you beast out a small secondary blue bar appears below your mana bar (looks like the horse stamina bar) and that's your timer for beast form. Feeding restores about half of it.

Oh, did I mention that feeding is broken too? Either it has an internal cooldown that makes no sense and isn't mentioned in the Devour skill, or it just breaks occasionally.

MasterLanz

Brizz wrote: »

No one mentioning the awful... "Speed Walk?" animation of the warewolf... running? It would be worth it for me if it LOOKED good.... but it looks sooo bad.

Yeah, it looks pretty lame. I'm holding out on the hope that it's just a placeholder for a four-legged run animation like in Skyrim.

Staal

It is actually quite underwhelming that the werewolf only got 2 active abilities as well.
I was a bit disappointed to spend 1k Ultimate for that

godlike_brub17_ESO

At least werewolf is much cooler than a vampire!

Jarnhand

Without knowing more about Vamps and Ww then from this thread and a little more info, I can say that the 2 forms cannot be just plain out more powerful then a normal char, if so everyone would be a Vamp or Ww, and the game would become plain lame boring and people would leave in droves.

Something like this need a positive side and a negative side. But at same time need to be balanced, again, or people would leave in droves and game dies.

For example if Vamps are stronger at night, they need to be weaker at day. If Wws are stronger in packs (and this needed to be caped or its GG game over), they need to be more vulnerable solo (maybe not, but you get the meaning, there need to be a downside).

In short, there need to be balance, or its bye bye ESO. And the problem now with the game being so new, a lot of info is missing, we do not know what effect skills etc have, and they are also VERY much a target for change so early in the games life.

People trying out these form, are crash test dummies, if you do not want to be that, do not make these drastic changes to your char.

PS! If you make 40 000 gp just from one bite, when I think you made your worth right there

Stiler

I do not get why in both this + Skyrim the werewolves work more like a "buff" and less like....well an ACTUAL WEREWOLF.

You shouldn't just transform for SECONDS (and have to eat to stay transformed), that isn't evne how it works in the bloody lore nor even on the NPC's in the world.

It just makes NO sense in both terms of Lore and terms of gameplay.

Everyone I know that wants to play werewolf wants to be able to stay transformed (at least at night on full moon nights especially).

Transforming should have both positive/negative effects, npc's attacking you on sight, etc.

Mustaklaki

I'm a rank 9 Werewolf. The form is a little stronger than my regular form. The trouble really is that 1000 (goes down by 25 ultimate each ult rank) cost.
It's just, you really have to prepare to use it, and know when you're going to use it. It doesn't work well in the unpredictability of PvP, not to mention nobody in PvP is going to die fast enough to let you feed properly. I'm sure a whole bunch of them would be strong, but for how long, 3 minutes at max? When Vampires can be strong all the time because their passives always work.

They either need to make Werewolf passives affect your normal form, or at least cut the Ultimate cost of Werewolf in half, because like the OP says, you just never get to use it unless you've been grinding on mobs for 5-10 minutes.

MasterLanz

Glad to see I'm not the only one who is running around with Werewolf and hitting these problems. That's exactly my experience as well, Mustaklaki.

Nox_Aeterna

Well , i would rather both vampire and werewolf be UP , than to have both become a must have because they give awesome bonus.

MasterLanz

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Well , i would rather both vampire and werewolf be UP , than to have both become a must have because they give awesome bonus.

There's a fine line between underpowered and useless. Right now Beast Form serves no purpose. It's not much more powerful than normal form, it takes up your ultimate slot, and you suffer huge penalties in PVP. This goes way beyond being just underpowered and beyond just the tree itself being underpowered, it causes permanent and devastating drawbacks to your entire character as well.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

The Mutts as we like to call them in the clan lack several thing to even be viable in the first place.

1. Does not work very well with most build as they dont synergise (so wait im gunna waste 3 slot on my bar just to put in werewolf skills that i cant use most of the time? no thx)

2. Only good for its passive in wich case the vampire is likely still better placed (cmon vampire get damage mitigation and stam/mag regeneration what does werewolf gets)

3. Only 2 spell for a damn transformation that has a huge cooldown

The verdict: While both werewolf and vampire have a limited number of availlable active skill ability werewolf suffer from its inability to use those spells while in human form and as such could help like for vampire having a few additionnal abilities.

ScardyFox

Made a huge post about this in BETA and got a ton of grief over it. I have been vindicated - Werewolf needs a lot of work.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Lot of work? it needs to be redone from nothing all over

Mustaklaki

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

The Mutts as we like to call them in the clan lack several thing to even be viable in the first place.

1. Does not work very well with most build as they dont synergise (so wait im gunna waste 3 slot on my bar just to put in werewolf skills that i cant use most of the time? no thx)

2. Only good for its passive in wich case the vampire is likely still better placed (cmon vampire get damage mitigation and stam/mag regeneration what does werewolf gets)

3. Only 2 spell for a damn transformation that has a huge cooldown

1. You don't put the werewolf skills into your skill bar, you get a completely new skill bar when you transform.

2. Werewolf's passives only work in Werewolf form, besides the one that generates ultimate faster.

3. Skills in this game don't have cooldowns.