Auction house is a must!

andreas.rudroffb16_ESO

"Auction house is a must!" ,,,,,,,,

Nope its not

auction houses are just for semi afk players ... get a grip !

but one thing we need, a seperate zone for trading (an island ? a trade chat ? - BUT FOR ALL ALLIANCES)

i tried to redict all in aldmeri to the starter island of ebonheart, but still they stay in V1 ....)

RustyBlades

With the raw number of bots running around and gold spammers, why make it easier on them to farm gold?

rioinsigniab16_ESO

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

@Shimizu Are you familiar with the concept of Market Response to Excess Supply in Macroeconomics?

When the supply of goods exceeds the demand for goods, you have a surplus and a disequilibrium in the market, which destabilizes the market and prevents it from working efficiently. Prices will continue to drop until the market reaches an equilibrium point where supply and demand are nearly equal. Once the market stabilizes, the manufacturers reduce the amount of that product they make to encourage consumers to continue buying it without creating another large surplus that could cause the price to drop even further.

If the market never stabilizes though and manufacturers continue to produce the goods at the same rate and the surplus continues to exist for too long, eventually the bottom falls out of the market for that product and it becomes worthless/unsalable. In the real world, this doesn't happen though because the manufacturers sell the surplus products off to other distributors who can take the product to a different market where there isn't already a surplus. This allows both markets to reach an equilibrium, but it hinges upon the markets not having a large over-lap of consumers because if the same consumers exist in both markets, then they can't lessen the impact of the surplus and both markets will bottom-out and render the product worthless/unsalable.

A global AH creates a market where every consumer overlaps with every other market. This means there are no foreign markets to shift goods to when a surplus exists, and no way to stabilize the market and prevent a product from becoming worthless/unsalable when a excess supply of the goods exists.

I agree that Guild Stores limit the size of a market too much, but a global or even faction based AH would create a economic system where certain items have a shelf life on the market and once it's passed, it becomes nearly impossible to sell them any longer. Especially when you consider that we as players have zero ways of slowing the production of an item when a surplus exists. Since we can't stop producing those items, the best solution is to have multiple, individual markets where you can shift a surplus.

That is why I'm opposed to global auction houses. Feel free to disagree.

This is why global AH's create worthless economies. there's a good reason why some of the best economies in MMO history involve what is described above as "foreign economies". Yes, it's convenient to have a global AH. But that could potentially be at the expense of the long term health of the game's economy.

Sometimes too much "convenience" can actually be a bad thing.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

AlexDougherty wrote: »

It's a game, the devs can alter or even cancel the rate at which items drop.
Swtor has something like an Auction house (admittedly with smaller servers), it just adjusts the drop rates every fortnight or so. With a bigger server they would probably need to adjust every week (maintenance would be a good time), but the economy wouldn't collapse.

Besides one thing SWTOR showed is no matter how rare an item, two thirds of the playerbase won't pay above a certain price, and most of the other third will only pay if they are finishing off collections. People have an idea of what they want to pay, too high and they don't pay, too cheap and they buy it and bung it back on to sell themselves.

IF that is indeed what is happening in SWTOR, then that is one more nail in the coffin. Why? Because that means that the devs have to micro manage the economy to keep it in check. Which is as far from the concept of a "player driven economy" as you can get.

The problem that you seem to be missing is that supply and demand are fickle. Too much of one for a long enough period of time can drastically affect the economy in the long term.

And that is precisely what happened at the start in GW2. One monolithic economy = increased availability of each item = "flippers" constantly driving prices down until things become nearly worthless.

Now that might sound great to someone who doesn't give a crap about that economy, and instead only cares about getting that one item they want and to hell with anything else. But that kind of mindset is selfish, naive and short sighted, and certainly not the kind of mindset that the devs should be catering to, especially if they wish their product to last.

Haxer

please please please do NOT add an auction house.

AH's are the death of real looting and crafting. All the gear you could ever want isn't out there in the world, it's in town right at your finger tips. It makes gold the only commodity, much to the delight of gold bot's because gold is that much more valuable and can get you any gear in the game.

for the love of Akatosh, do NOT add an AH.

Phantax

Agree with the OP

+1

tordr86b16_ESO

Haxer wrote: »

please please please do NOT add an auction house.

AH's are the death of real looting and crafting. All the gear you could ever want isn't out there in the world, it's in town right at your finger tips. It makes gold the only commodity, much to the delight of gold bot's because gold is that much more valuable and can get you any gear in the game.

for the love of Akatosh, do NOT add an AH.

I'm VR10 and I can tell you it is not easy to sell crafted gear in the guild store, It would be easier with a larger pool of players. If you ask me I think this entire guild store is a joke and just another excuse for them to do less work with the game economy.

Jeremy

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

NaciremaDiputs wrote: »

@Shimizu Are you familiar with the concept of Market Response to Excess Supply in Macroeconomics?

When the supply of goods exceeds the demand for goods, you have a surplus and a disequilibrium in the market, which destabilizes the market and prevents it from working efficiently. Prices will continue to drop until the market reaches an equilibrium point where supply and demand are nearly equal. Once the market stabilizes, the manufacturers reduce the amount of that product they make to encourage consumers to continue buying it without creating another large surplus that could cause the price to drop even further.

If the market never stabilizes though and manufacturers continue to produce the goods at the same rate and the surplus continues to exist for too long, eventually the bottom falls out of the market for that product and it becomes worthless/unsalable. In the real world, this doesn't happen though because the manufacturers sell the surplus products off to other distributors who can take the product to a different market where there isn't already a surplus. This allows both markets to reach an equilibrium, but it hinges upon the markets not having a large over-lap of consumers because if the same consumers exist in both markets, then they can't lessen the impact of the surplus and both markets will bottom-out and render the product worthless/unsalable.

A global AH creates a market where every consumer overlaps with every other market. This means there are no foreign markets to shift goods to when a surplus exists, and no way to stabilize the market and prevent a product from becoming worthless/unsalable when a excess supply of the goods exists.

I agree that Guild Stores limit the size of a market too much, but a global or even faction based AH would create a economic system where certain items have a shelf life on the market and once it's passed, it becomes nearly impossible to sell them any longer. Especially when you consider that we as players have zero ways of slowing the production of an item when a surplus exists. Since we can't stop producing those items, the best solution is to have multiple, individual markets where you can shift a surplus.

That is why I'm opposed to global auction houses. Feel free to disagree.

This is why global AH's create worthless economies. there's a good reason why some of the best economies in MMO history involve what is described above as "foreign economies". Yes, it's convenient to have a global AH. But that could potentially be at the expense of the long term health of the game's economy.

Sometimes too much "convenience" can actually be a bad thing.

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

alanspurlock_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

I do have to agree with you.

It's smart to make claims and back it with sources.

Not so smart... when people just spill out un-backed claims with opinionated statements.

I mean.. it's one of the first things they teach you in English class in elementary.. It's not "This sucks" it's "I think this sucks because....."

lavendercat

Haxer wrote: »

please please please do NOT add an auction house.

AH's are the death of real looting and crafting. All the gear you could ever want isn't out there in the world, it's in town right at your finger tips. It makes gold the only commodity, much to the delight of gold bot's because gold is that much more valuable and can get you any gear in the game.

for the love of Akatosh, do NOT add an AH.

i never really thought about it before but i actually agree with this. in wow, there are people who just sit in the AH buying up mats and reselling them. it doesnt really sit well with the whole ESO thing which should be about exploring and doing stuff in the world.

(thats just my personal preference anyway, that people should be out in the world doing stuff)

Phantax

Guild Banks / Stores

Guild banks are fine, they do what they are intended. People can deposit stuff (or gold) for the betterment of their guild. A lot of people (myself included) make stuff purely to help the lower level players gain better gear, although with ESOs crafting system this isn't as needed. Other stuff such as potions, buffs and foods are easily stored and obtained as needed.

Guild stores... really ! Firstly guild members shouldn't sell to other guild members, they should donate/give items to guildies. (in Rift and GW2 I ran guilds and this was always in the guild rules) Guildies/team-mates, call them what you will are not there to be made a profit from ! The implementation of guild stores has only served to fragment the community and ruined any chance of ESO having a dynamic economy.
Each faction should have their own 'Global' auction house !

Upcoming Guild Changes-

•Guild functionality updates: guild store interface updates, customizable guild insignias, tabards, and guild ranks, and Guild Kiosks—guild stores open to everyone that are available to the highest-bidding guild.

Guild Kiosks—guild stores open to everyone that are available to the highest-bidding guild.
OMG are you joking ! "available to the highest-bidding guild" Which idiot came up with this idea? Elitism gone mad ! Mega guilds are going to run the show while smaller guilds are going to be constantly left out. Way to go there Zeni on segregating the community even more !

One Auction House per faction. Its simple... It works ! ! !

Jeremy

lavendercat wrote: »

Haxer wrote: »

please please please do NOT add an auction house.

AH's are the death of real looting and crafting. All the gear you could ever want isn't out there in the world, it's in town right at your finger tips. It makes gold the only commodity, much to the delight of gold bot's because gold is that much more valuable and can get you any gear in the game.

for the love of Akatosh, do NOT add an AH.

i never really thought about it before but i actually agree with this. in wow, there are people who just sit in the AH buying up mats and reselling them. it doesnt really sit well with the whole ESO thing which should be about exploring and doing stuff in the world.

(thats just my personal preference anyway, that people should be out in the world doing stuff)

People could do this with or without an auction house.

I am sure there are people right now scanning guild stores or watching trade spam for good deals so they can jump on it then sell it back for a higher price.

And if people want to make calculated risks to make profit I don't really see the problem with it - as long as its done legitimately without the use of bots or RMT.
-
I would also disagree with you that putting in an auction house would encourage people not to explore the world. Because this game has plenty of incentives to explore independent of trade. And besides, a healthy market might would actually encourage more exploration as players would have an easier time selling the items they find but do not personally need.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence. See the earlier post by someone who claims that SWTOR's economy has to be micro-managed by devs in order to maintain the required balance.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices that rise with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

A good economy is one that is player driven and requires very little / no developer influence in order to maintain a good balance between "supply" and "demand". But when one or the other is out, and developers need to adjust drops just to keep things in balance, that isn't a good economy. That's a terrible one.

See Eve Online and SWG Pre-NGE for examples of good player driven economies. Eve Online's economy is apparently used as a model for economists to examine closely because it mimicks the real life ebb and flow of "supply" and "demand". Something that isn't achievable with a monolithic "global" AH system.

alphawolph

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence. See the earlier post by someone who claims that SWTOR's economy has to be micro-managed by devs in order to maintain the required balance.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices that rise with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

A good economy is one that is player driven and requires very little / no developer influence in order to maintain a good balance between "supply" and "demand". But when one or the other is out, and developers need to adjust drops just to keep things in balance, that isn't a good

That sounds like this game farm motifs to sell ,vendor everything else.

Jeremy

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Firstly, I'd suggest you read the ENTIRETY of my post before throwing around accusations. Perhaps you should also read the linked comment I posted too.

Secondly, just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

I did read the entirety of your post. And I am still waiting for you tell me what these best economies in MMO history are. And I do not visit links - because as I made clear in an earlier post, I am paranoid about the internet

And I could turn your argument around and say just because you say an economy is worthless doesn't mean it is either.

I gave you a long list of successful MMORPGs that have used Auction Houses to create functional economies that are not worthless. So you are either in denial or mistaken as to what the word worthless means. I am not sure which. Because any economy that allows you to buy/sell consistently and successfully is not worthless. Because that is the purpose of an economy - to facilitate trade.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

alphawolph wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence. See the earlier post by someone who claims that SWTOR's economy has to be micro-managed by devs in order to maintain the required balance.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices that rise with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

A good economy is one that is player driven and requires very little / no developer influence in order to maintain a good balance between "supply" and "demand". But when one or the other is out, and developers need to adjust drops just to keep things in balance, that isn't a good

That sounds like this game farm motifs to sell ,vendor everything else.

Exactly. The fact that people could farm that many motifs and place them even on THIS economic model at ridiculous prices, completely destroys everything the devs were trying to accomplish when they decided to allow different types of "racial" crafting. It has essentially ruined any and all variety required between crafters, and thus destroyed one of many reasons to keep logging into the game.

Now, consider how it would be with one monolithic economy.....

Supply and demand can only work when demand is greater than supply.
The motifs were in high demand only for a short time because the market was flooded with them.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Firstly, I'd suggest you read the ENTIRETY of my post before throwing around accusations. Perhaps you should also read the linked comment I posted too.

Secondly, just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

I did read the entirety of your post. And I am still waiting for you tell me what these best economies in MMO history are. And I do not visit links - because as I made clear in an earlier post, I am paranoid about the internet

And I could turn your argument around and say just because you say an economy is worthless doesn't mean it is either.

I gave you a long list of successful MMORPGs that have used Auction Houses to create functional economies that are not worthless. So you are either in denial or mistaken as to what the word worthless means. I am not sure which. Because any economy that allows you to buy/sell consistently and successfully is not worthless. Because that is the purpose of an economy - to facilitate trade.

My apologies, I was editing my post.

In short, your concept of a "working" economy, doesn't mean it's a good, one.
Please see Eve Online (and SWG Pre-NGE) for an example of a player driven economy that functions without the need for external developer influence (apparently unlike SWTOR). Please note that Eve Online's economy is used by real life economists for a good reason due to its similarities with real life. Unlike the economies in games like WoW and others which have monolithic economies.

You DO realise why countries don't just flood their economies by churning out more and more currency don't you? The reason why I ask this is because whilst an economy does try to facilitate trade, it must do so VERY carefully. Upset the symbiosis between "supply" and "demand" and that's when you end up destabilising the economy.

alanspurlock_ESO

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Firstly, I'd suggest you read the ENTIRETY of my post before throwing around accusations. Perhaps you should also read the linked comment I posted too.

Secondly, just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

I did read the entirety of your post. And I am still waiting for you tell me what these best economies in MMO history are. And I do not visit links - because as I made clear in an earlier post, I am paranoid about the internet

And I could turn your argument around and say just because you say an economy is worthless doesn't mean it is either.

I gave you a long list of successful MMORPGs that have used Auction Houses to create functional economies that are not worthless. So you are either in denial or mistaken as to what the word worthless means. I am not sure which. Because any economy that allows you to buy/sell consistently and successfully is not worthless. Because that is the purpose of an economy - to facilitate trade.

My apologies, I was editing my post.

In short, your concept of a "working" economy, doesn't mean it's a good, one.
Please see Eve Online (and SWG Pre-NGE) for an example of a player driven economy that functions without the need for external developer influence (apparently unlike SWTOR). Please note that Eve Online's economy is used by real life economists for a good reason due to its similarities with real life. Unlike the economies in games like WoW and others which have monolithic economies.

You DO realise why countries don't just flood their economies by churning out more and more currency don't you? The reason why I ask this is because whilst an economy does try to facilitate trade, it must do so VERY carefully. Upset the symbiosis between "supply" and "demand" and that's when you end up destabilising the economy.

Man.. I tried to play EvE online.

My brain exploded

I uninstalled it lol.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

lavendercat wrote: »

Haxer wrote: »

please please please do NOT add an auction house.

AH's are the death of real looting and crafting. All the gear you could ever want isn't out there in the world, it's in town right at your finger tips. It makes gold the only commodity, much to the delight of gold bot's because gold is that much more valuable and can get you any gear in the game.

for the love of Akatosh, do NOT add an AH.

i never really thought about it before but i actually agree with this. in wow, there are people who just sit in the AH buying up mats and reselling them. it doesnt really sit well with the whole ESO thing which should be about exploring and doing stuff in the world.

(thats just my personal preference anyway, that people should be out in the world doing stuff)

People could do this with or without an auction house.

I am sure there are people right now scanning guild stores or watching trade spam for good deals so they can jump on it then sell it back for a higher price.

And if people want to make calculated risks to make profit I don't really see the problem with it - as long as its done legitimately without the use of bots or RMT.
-
I would also disagree with you that putting in an auction house would encourage people not to explore the world. Because this game has plenty of incentives to explore independent of trade. And besides, a healthy market might would actually encourage more exploration as players would have an easier time selling the items they find but do not personally need.

What you describe is called "Flipping". Where a player tries to "play the market" by speculating on what they can buy and sell for a higher price. It's a legitimate practice in MMO's that largely depends on timing and predicting the market correctly (i guess it is somewhat like commodity trading in real life)

http://blacklionsprofit.com/introduction-to-flipping/

It happened a LOT immediately after launch in GW2. One singular economy with lots of people "flipping", trying to out-do each other because trying to get gold by other means proved VERY difficult (read: LOTS of grinding). Resulting in either hyper-inflated prices or complete crashes because there was an over-supply of the item.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

alanspurlock_ESO wrote: »

Man.. I tried to play EvE online.

My brain exploded

I uninstalled it lol.

I can't stand Eve Online for a variety of reasons. But if nothing else, I will acknowledge the fact that it has probably one of THE best player driven economies in the entire MMO industy.

Which shouldn't be surprising considering that the game has an actual real life economist keeping a close eye on the games economy.

alphawolph

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

alphawolph wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence. See the earlier post by someone who claims that SWTOR's economy has to be micro-managed by devs in order to maintain the required balance.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices that rise with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

A good economy is one that is player driven and requires very little / no developer influence in order to maintain a good balance between "supply" and "demand". But when one or the other is out, and developers need to adjust drops just to keep things in balance, that isn't a good

That sounds like this game farm motifs to sell ,vendor everything else.

Exactly. The fact that people could farm that many motifs and place them even on THIS economic model at ridiculous prices, completely destroys everything the devs were trying to accomplish when they decided to allow different types of "racial" crafting. It has essentially ruined any and all variety required between crafters, and thus destroyed one of many reasons to keep logging into the game.

Now, consider how it would be with one monolithic economy.....

Supply and demand can only work when demand is greater than supply.
The motifs were in high demand only for a short time because the market was flooded with them.

With an AH, they wouldn't sell because my customers could get them cheaply and easily.

I would be fine with that.

Jeremy

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Firstly, I'd suggest you read the ENTIRETY of my post before throwing around accusations. Perhaps you should also read the linked comment I posted too.

Secondly, just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

I did read the entirety of your post. And I am still waiting for you tell me what these best economies in MMO history are. And I do not visit links - because as I made clear in an earlier post, I am paranoid about the internet

And I could turn your argument around and say just because you say an economy is worthless doesn't mean it is either.

I gave you a long list of successful MMORPGs that have used Auction Houses to create functional economies that are not worthless. So you are either in denial or mistaken as to what the word worthless means. I am not sure which. Because any economy that allows you to buy/sell consistently and successfully is not worthless. Because that is the purpose of an economy - to facilitate trade.

My apologies, I was editing my post.

In short, your concept of a "working" economy, doesn't mean it's a good, one.
Please see Eve Online (and SWG Pre-NGE) for an example of a player driven economy that functions without the need for external developer influence (apparently unlike SWTOR). Please note that Eve Online's economy is used by real life economists for a good reason due to its similarities with real life. Unlike the economies in games like WoW and others which have monolithic economies.

You DO realise why countries don't just flood their economies by churning out more and more currency don't you? The reason why I ask this is because whilst an economy does try to facilitate trade, it must do so VERY carefully. Upset the symbiosis between "supply" and "demand" and that's when you end up destabilising the economy.

So this game Eve is what you are saying has the best economy in MMORPG history? Well I never played that. So I won't comment in detail.

You are right to say this debate is subjective to a degree. But when the lion's share of successful MMORPGs have auction houses, there has to come to where you have to admit to yourself these games do not have worthless economies. Especially when many of these games have been far more successful than the game you are touting.

And Auction Houses do not flood a game with currency. So I don't understand the point in your second paragraph.

Auction houses are simply an effective tool to create a competitive market everyone can easily participate in. It's not the Federal Reserve, and does not print gold.

Jeremy

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

lavendercat wrote: »

Haxer wrote: »

please please please do NOT add an auction house.

AH's are the death of real looting and crafting. All the gear you could ever want isn't out there in the world, it's in town right at your finger tips. It makes gold the only commodity, much to the delight of gold bot's because gold is that much more valuable and can get you any gear in the game.

for the love of Akatosh, do NOT add an AH.

i never really thought about it before but i actually agree with this. in wow, there are people who just sit in the AH buying up mats and reselling them. it doesnt really sit well with the whole ESO thing which should be about exploring and doing stuff in the world.

(thats just my personal preference anyway, that people should be out in the world doing stuff)

People could do this with or without an auction house.

I am sure there are people right now scanning guild stores or watching trade spam for good deals so they can jump on it then sell it back for a higher price.

And if people want to make calculated risks to make profit I don't really see the problem with it - as long as its done legitimately without the use of bots or RMT.
-
I would also disagree with you that putting in an auction house would encourage people not to explore the world. Because this game has plenty of incentives to explore independent of trade. And besides, a healthy market might would actually encourage more exploration as players would have an easier time selling the items they find but do not personally need.

What you describe is called "Flipping". Where a player tries to "play the market" by speculating on what they can buy and sell for a higher price. It's a legitimate practice in MMO's that largely depends on timing and predicting the market correctly (i guess it is somewhat like commodity trading in real life)

http://blacklionsprofit.com/introduction-to-flipping/

It happened a LOT immediately after launch in GW2. One singular economy with lots of people "flipping", trying to out-do each other because trying to get gold by other means proved VERY difficult (read: LOTS of grinding). Resulting in either hyper-inflated prices or complete crashes because there was an over-supply of the item.

It's called buying low and selling high. A pretty basic tenant when it comes to making money Rion. And there is nothing wrong with it - long as it's done legitimately without bots or RMT.

It's not much different than buying cheap materials to craft something with and then selling it for a profit.

rioinsigniab16_ESO

Jeremy wrote: »

It's called buying low and selling high. A pretty basic tenant when it comes to making money Rion. And there is nothing wrong with it - long as it's done legitimately without bots or RMT.

It's not much different than buying cheap materials to craft something with and then selling it for a profit.

I never said that there was anything inherently wrong with the concept of "buying low and selling high".

But, theres a big difference between one person doing it, and LOTS of people doing it on the same products at the same time. And when the latter happens, that's when problems occur. See various articles on stock market bubbles and crashes.

There is not a simple answer to managing an economy. If there was then such things wouldn't occur. However, real life proves that over-supply in ANY ONE market (e.g. a global AH) can sometimes be disastrous unless there is some way to balance out that over supply.

Jeremy

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

It's called buying low and selling high. A pretty basic tenant when it comes to making money Rion. And there is nothing wrong with it - long as it's done legitimately without bots or RMT.

It's not much different than buying cheap materials to craft something with and then selling it for a profit.

I never said that there was anything inherently wrong with the concept of "buying low and selling high".

But, theres a big difference between one person doing it, and LOTS of people doing it on the same products at the same time. And when the latter happens, that's when problems occur. See various articles on stock market bubbles and crashes.

There is not a simple answer to managing an economy. If there was then such things wouldn't occur. However, real life proves that over-supply in ANY ONE market (e.g. a global AH) can sometimes be disastrous unless there is some way to balance out that over supply.

Auction houses aren't stock markets though. You are comparing apples and oranges and making this way more complicated than it is. Because there is just no way an auction house in and of itself could be disastrous to this game. Which is why many games have them and are not destroyed because of it.

The reason stock markets have such a profound impact on our economy is because corporations have consolidated huge segments of our country's wealth. So if they make poor investments and go belly up it can send tremors through-out the whole economy. That's what causes the disaster. It's not because too many people are buying low and selling high. It's a concentration of wealth and power issue.

Auction houses on a MMORPG are far far less complex and are basically just a tool that allows broad participation in a make-believe market place. They do not reflect the health of certain entities that are vital to this game's existence. So even if LOTS of people were to suddenly buy low and sell high the same item - it would not create a disaster. Just a blip on the price history. Elder Scrolls would easily survive.

redwoodtreesprite

I belong to several large guilds. There is a problem with a store where only members of a guild buy. It stagnates. And there is actually very little selection.

Here is an example. I have been searching for exploration heavy armor pieces to research. Every couple days I dig though the clunky interface guild stores. Since the game began, I have found 4 total on the US server, two helms and two boots, and none on the EU server, . If there was a game wide, or even just an alliance wide, AH/store, I likely would have found a lot more.

Also, at a certain point, members stop buying a lot of things. So your posts may never sell, even if you offer them at a very cheap price. Unless the guild is continuously kicking out members and inviting new ones, stagnation is inevitable.

And I will not have regular chat channels open, so will never see any trade posts, nor will I use chat channels to try and sell my stuff. And trade channels always get abused in MMOs. Does anyone actually think the gold sellers won't flood those as well?

But the way the game is going, with gold sellers controlling the resources and even many of the mobs, I really don't care anymore about trying to sell anything in this game. Other than an occasional extra stack of ore I actually manage to collect, I don't bother posting anything...

methjester

I at least feel encouraged that this this thread has one of the highest view counts on the forum meaning it's a hot topic way after one of the devs said no with no logical reason.

Sure, people come in and give bogus reasons and make up weird stats as to why an auction house is a bad idea, but in the end, this game will have one.

As for now, I don't think the dev team could code their way out of a Sim City glitch in Windows 95. If they could, patch 1.10 wouldn't be vapor ware heading into the second month.

Anyways, AH haters Keep on hating. It brings views and attention to this thread which will not go away.

felixgamingx1

an Auction House is necessary and should be created once the majority of.. once again, once the majority of bots are eradicated.

Phantax

ZOS_AlexD wrote: »

Hey guys, just a friendly reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive.

Really? Well give us our Auction House or I'll show you how civil and constructive I can be. I'll be very constructive about where I stick my greatsword, then I'll be civil and ask "How you like that!"

lol

Razzak

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

rioinsigniab16_ESO wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

If auction houses create worthless economies how come every single game I've played that had one had an economy that works?

I would like some examples. Because your argument is very abstract. What is an example of these so-called best economies in MMO history you speak of?

Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 14, World of War Craft, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Aion etc. I could name more but I'll end it here to be brief. All of these games have functional economies that work far better than this game's. All of them have auction houses.

In other words: you say things that are easily disproven simple by looking at the reality of things. And you offer no examples or evidence to back up your claims that auction houses create worthless economies. There are simply too many successful MMORPGs out there that prove you wrong.

Firstly, I'd suggest you read the ENTIRETY of my post before throwing around accusations. Perhaps you should also read the linked comment I posted too.

Secondly, just because there is an economy. Doesn't mean it's a good one. And it certainly doesn't mean it is one that is sustainable without external (i.e. dev) influence.

Now YOUR interpretation of an "economy that works" is perhaps one where you dump your all your "purples" that you've farmed on the economy at ridicuous prices with each expansion, because you think that everyone has money to burn. Whilst you vendor everything else because it's hardwork to try to get rid of greens when there's so many of them on the AH.

THAT isn't a good economy. THAT is a prime example of a worthless economy. Where farming high quality items to dump in excess on the economy is fine because YOU are making lots of in-game money from it.

I did read the entirety of your post. And I am still waiting for you tell me what these best economies in MMO history are. And I do not visit links - because as I made clear in an earlier post, I am paranoid about the internet

And I could turn your argument around and say just because you say an economy is worthless doesn't mean it is either.

I gave you a long list of successful MMORPGs that have used Auction Houses to create functional economies that are not worthless. So you are either in denial or mistaken as to what the word worthless means. I am not sure which. Because any economy that allows you to buy/sell consistently and successfully is not worthless. Because that is the purpose of an economy - to facilitate trade.

My apologies, I was editing my post.

In short, your concept of a "working" economy, doesn't mean it's a good, one.
Please see Eve Online (and SWG Pre-NGE) for an example of a player driven economy that functions without the need for external developer influence (apparently unlike SWTOR). Please note that Eve Online's economy is used by real life economists for a good reason due to its similarities with real life. Unlike the economies in games like WoW and others which have monolithic economies.

You DO realise why countries don't just flood their economies by churning out more and more currency don't you? The reason why I ask this is because whilst an economy does try to facilitate trade, it must do so VERY carefully. Upset the symbiosis between "supply" and "demand" and that's when you end up destabilising the economy.

Doesn't EVE have one, non-limited AH, market or whatever you would like to call it?
In what way does this EVE comparison prove there is no need for global market in ESO?