Critical Resistance Should Only Apply to Direct Critical Damage. Bookmark

thesarahandcompany

TL;DR: I think Critical Resistance should reduce Critical Damage from direct damage attacks only, while Critical Damage from Damage over Time should ignore Critical Resistance. Critical Resistance primarily exists to control burst. That makes sense for direct damage, where multiple large critical hits can overlap within a very short window and kill someone before they have a reasonable opportunity to respond. DoTs behave differently. Their damage is distributed across time, which means their interaction with Critical Chance is fundamentally different. Allowing DoT critical hits to bypass Critical Resistance would create another viable way of scaling sustained pressure without necessarily increasing direct-damage burst.

Why? It has to do with expected damage under a crit build, and the variance of the damage under the build as matters of statistics. We can represent an expectation of damage (all else equal) under a crit build by E[D] where E[D] = Base Damage × (1 + Crit Rate × (Crit Bonus − 1)), which tells us how much damage an ability averages. The variance is Var(D) = (Base Damage)² × Crit Rate × (1 − Crit Rate) × (Crit Multiplier − 1)² and tells us how unreliable that average is on any particular hit/application.

Even though they scale the same way with Critical Chance/Critical Damage and are mitigated the same way by Critical Resistance, direct damage abilities (Whip, Crystal Fragments, Spectral Bow, etc.) and DoT abilities (Burning Talons, Hurricane, Debilitate, etc.) interact very differently with crit as a statistical mechanic. Treating them identically under Critical Resistance is therefore a problem: it homogenizes two fundamentally different damage distributions simply because they use the same underlying crit formula.

Direct damage concentrates critical variance into fewer, larger events. That variance itself has lethal value because several favorable rolls can occur within the same short burst window and exceed someone's available health before healing or shielding can respond. DoTs distribute those same critical rolls across repeated, smaller events over time. As the number of ticks increases, cumulative damage increasingly converges toward its expected value. But that expected damage is also realized over time, meaning it must continuously compete against healing, shielding, cleansing, and other defensive responses before it can become lethal.

So while crit may be mathematically identical as a damage multiplier for both, the distribution and lethal utility of that damage are not identical. Critical Resistance currently treats them as though they are.

Alchimiste1

no

twing1_

IMO this would be a good way to balance DoT builds in PvP, which are currently lagging behind (especially with the nerf to Draugrkin)

Erickson9610

That's like saying Physical and Spell Resistance should only affect incoming direct damage. We would need a separate Resistance stat for defending against damage over time if that was the case.

There was once a patch where Bleed Damage bypassed your Physical Resistance. People would stack Bleed Damage over time since it was so effective. While, yes, it makes sense that if you're bleeding out, your physical armor isn't going to close your wound... it was arguably imbalanced. A common damage type like that shouldn't have bypassed the Resistance mechanic.

Oblivion Damage is, by design, meant to be the damage type that bypasses Resistance and all forms of Damage Reduction and limits to incoming damage. It even bypasses your damage shields and directly hits your Health. It scales off the target's Health, but it's very rare to source (i.e. it's hard to stack), cannot be buffed or resisted, and it has a very low damage cap so that it is more effective against unreasonably tanky people, but way less useful against standard builds.

If Critical Resistance were to no longer affect incoming Critical Damage over time, there would need to be some other way to defend against Critical Damage over time. Given the change to Bleed Damage, it's clear that non-Oblivion damage types are meant to be standardized for balance reasons, even if that affects the roleplay fantasy. Oblivion Damage is the answer to the question of how one should counter unreasonably tanky builds.

AdonisJorge

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That's like saying Physical and Spell Resistance should only affect incoming direct damage. We would need a separate Resistance stat for defending against damage over time if that was the case.

There was once a patch where Bleed Damage bypassed your Physical Resistance. People would stack Bleed Damage over time since it was so effective. While, yes, it makes sense that if you're bleeding out, your physical armor isn't going to close your wound... it was arguably imbalanced. A common damage type like that shouldn't have bypassed the Resistance mechanic.

Oblivion Damage is, by design, meant to be the damage type that bypasses Resistance and all forms of Damage Reduction and limits to incoming damage. It even bypasses your damage shields and directly hits your Health. It scales off the target's Health, but it's very rare to source (i.e. it's hard to stack), cannot be buffed or resisted, and it has a very low damage cap so that it is more effective against unreasonably tanky people, but way less useful against standard builds.

If Critical Resistance were to no longer affect incoming Critical Damage over time, there would need to be some other way to defend against Critical Damage over time. Given the change to Bleed Damage, it's clear that non-Oblivion damage types are meant to be standardized for balance reasons, even if that affects the roleplay fantasy. Oblivion Damage is the answer to the question of how one should counter unreasonably tanky builds.

Sload Semblance meta, good times

evLRise

twing1_ wrote: »

IMO this would be a good way to balance DoT builds in PvP, which are currently lagging behind (especially with the nerf to Draugrkin)

This has to be ragebait. Pyre/embers DK is top #1 spec in the current meta. In fact everything that's actually playable rn is DPS oriented. We don't need more of that.

twing1_

evLRise wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

IMO this would be a good way to balance DoT builds in PvP, which are currently lagging behind (especially with the nerf to Draugrkin)

This has to be ragebait. Pyre/embers DK is top #1 spec in the current meta. In fact everything that's actually playable rn is DPS oriented. We don't need more of that.

PvP is very heavily dominated by a burst meta right now. DoTs are not the reason why DKs are strong right now, it is their easily stacked delayed burst skills, their crazy whip tooltips, their easy access to 100% penetration, and their unlimited sustain.

thesarahandcompany

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

no

Dense asf

thesarahandcompany

evLRise wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

IMO this would be a good way to balance DoT builds in PvP, which are currently lagging behind (especially with the nerf to Draugrkin)

This has to be ragebait. Pyre/embers DK is top #1 spec in the current meta. In fact everything that's actually playable rn is DPS oriented. We don't need more of that.

DK dots are not meta rn because DOTS are good, they excel because DK is good. Moot point

thesarahandcompany

Erickson9610 wrote: »

That's like saying Physical and Spell Resistance should only affect incoming direct damage. We would need a separate Resistance stat for defending against damage over time if that was the case.

There was once a patch where Bleed Damage bypassed your Physical Resistance. People would stack Bleed Damage over time since it was so effective. While, yes, it makes sense that if you're bleeding out, your physical armor isn't going to close your wound... it was arguably imbalanced. A common damage type like that shouldn't have bypassed the Resistance mechanic.

Oblivion Damage is, by design, meant to be the damage type that bypasses Resistance and all forms of Damage Reduction and limits to incoming damage. It even bypasses your damage shields and directly hits your Health. It scales off the target's Health, but it's very rare to source (i.e. it's hard to stack), cannot be buffed or resisted, and it has a very low damage cap so that it is more effective against unreasonably tanky people, but way less useful against standard builds.

If Critical Resistance were to no longer affect incoming Critical Damage over time, there would need to be some other way to defend against Critical Damage over time. Given the change to Bleed Damage, it's clear that non-Oblivion damage types are meant to be standardized for balance reasons, even if that affects the roleplay fantasy. Oblivion Damage is the answer to the question of how one should counter unreasonably tanky builds.

I feel like you didn'tt read what I wrote at all because saying armor interactions with direct damage do not function the same way as dot interacts with critical resistance. The reason why critical resistance vs. dots is so strong is a matter of variance in dot ticks.

Oblivion damage passes through EVERYTHING, shields, armor, resistances, etc. Not just crit resistances.

Prionyx

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

TL;DR: I think Critical Resistance should reduce Critical Damage from direct damage attacks only, while Critical Damage from Damage over Time should ignore Critical Resistance. Critical Resistance primarily exists to control burst. That makes sense for direct damage, where multiple large critical hits can overlap within a very short window and kill someone before they have a reasonable opportunity to respond. DoTs behave differently. Their damage is distributed across time, which means their interaction with Critical Chance is fundamentally different. Allowing DoT critical hits to bypass Critical Resistance would create another viable way of scaling sustained pressure without necessarily increasing direct-damage burst.

Why? It has to do with expected damage under a crit build, and the variance of the damage under the build as matters of statistics. We can represent an expectation of damage (all else equal) under a crit build by E[D] where E[D] = Base Damage × (1 + Crit Rate × (Crit Bonus − 1)), which tells us how much damage an ability averages. The variance is Var(D) = (Base Damage)² × Crit Rate × (1 − Crit Rate) × (Crit Multiplier − 1)² and tells us how unreliable that average is on any particular hit/application.

Even though they scale the same way with Critical Chance/Critical Damage and are mitigated the same way by Critical Resistance, direct damage abilities (Whip, Crystal Fragments, Spectral Bow, etc.) and DoT abilities (Burning Talons, Hurricane, Debilitate, etc.) interact very differently with crit as a statistical mechanic. Treating them identically under Critical Resistance is therefore a problem: it homogenizes two fundamentally different damage distributions simply because they use the same underlying crit formula.

Direct damage concentrates critical variance into fewer, larger events. That variance itself has lethal value because several favorable rolls can occur within the same short burst window and exceed someone's available health before healing or shielding can respond. DoTs distribute those same critical rolls across repeated, smaller events over time. As the number of ticks increases, cumulative damage increasingly converges toward its expected value. But that expected damage is also realized over time, meaning it must continuously compete against healing, shielding, cleansing, and other defensive responses before it can become lethal.

So while crit may be mathematically identical as a damage multiplier for both, the distribution and lethal utility of that damage are not identical. Critical Resistance currently treats them as though they are.

One of the worst ideas I've ever seen by fat. Imagine making a mitigation buff that only counters healthy gameplay but doesn't affect unhealthy gameplay

NovelliESO

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

TL;DR: I think Critical Resistance should reduce Critical Damage from direct damage attacks only, while Critical Damage from Damage over Time should ignore Critical Resistance. Critical Resistance primarily exists to control burst. That makes sense for direct damage, where multiple large critical hits can overlap within a very short window and kill someone before they have a reasonable opportunity to respond. DoTs behave differently. Their damage is distributed across time, which means their interaction with Critical Chance is fundamentally different. Allowing DoT critical hits to bypass Critical Resistance would create another viable way of scaling sustained pressure without necessarily increasing direct-damage burst.

Why? It has to do with expected damage under a crit build, and the variance of the damage under the build as matters of statistics. We can represent an expectation of damage (all else equal) under a crit build by E[D] where E[D] = Base Damage × (1 + Crit Rate × (Crit Bonus − 1)), which tells us how much damage an ability averages. The variance is Var(D) = (Base Damage)² × Crit Rate × (1 − Crit Rate) × (Crit Multiplier − 1)² and tells us how unreliable that average is on any particular hit/application.

Even though they scale the same way with Critical Chance/Critical Damage and are mitigated the same way by Critical Resistance, direct damage abilities (Whip, Crystal Fragments, Spectral Bow, etc.) and DoT abilities (Burning Talons, Hurricane, Debilitate, etc.) interact very differently with crit as a statistical mechanic. Treating them identically under Critical Resistance is therefore a problem: it homogenizes two fundamentally different damage distributions simply because they use the same underlying crit formula.

Direct damage concentrates critical variance into fewer, larger events. That variance itself has lethal value because several favorable rolls can occur within the same short burst window and exceed someone's available health before healing or shielding can respond. DoTs distribute those same critical rolls across repeated, smaller events over time. As the number of ticks increases, cumulative damage increasingly converges toward its expected value. But that expected damage is also realized over time, meaning it must continuously compete against healing, shielding, cleansing, and other defensive responses before it can become lethal.

So while crit may be mathematically identical as a damage multiplier for both, the distribution and lethal utility of that damage are not identical. Critical Resistance currently treats them as though they are.

Crit resist doesn't exist primarily to control burst, it exists primarily to separate PvE and what can be abused there from PvP. If crit resist ceased to exist from DoT abilities then builds in PvP would shift to people only running DoTs because they are already more efficient per cast than most direct damage abilities (with the exception of ones that happen after a delay or are just OP like DK's current whip) and would be even more powerful. The standardization for DoTs in patch 35 was that they deal 2x as much as direct damage abilities over their duration. The intelligent thing to do is apply a few dots and then use your spammable while DoTs are ticking. 3 DoTs on someone with someone spamming a direct damage ability is going to be much more pressure than someone just spamming their direct damage ability in the vast majority of situations, excluding those in which people are just built poorly and the direct damage alone can pressure them.

PvE meta is and always should be people layering their strongest DoTs into their rotation with their spammable, with this already being the case, removing crit resist from what is already the strongest damage per second would make that damage per second much too strong for anyone to deal with.

I am fine with a slight buff to DoTs, but removing crit resist from them entirely would skew the damage too much. As I said before they are more efficient in PvP per cast, and shine most when supplemented with a spammable, making them do more than twice the damage they already do would shift the meta in an unhealthy way.