Night Market - Week One Notes

ESO_player123

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.

I have not seen any requirements in groups for the "overland" NM in the GF. And the groups I've been in had a wide variety of levels. No one was kicking anyone, and people were leaving and joining the groups with no fuss or issues.

Yes, there are groups with requirements for NM dungeons and even more so for the Trial, but that is understandable.

shadoza

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

Psyphiman

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

Arunei

AScarlato wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

We have numbers that COULD be inflated because of the way getting Keys seems to work. Like I said before, it's possible people aren't doing certain content because that's what they WANT to be doing, it's because they HAVE to in order to do the Dungeons/Trials. We have no way of knowing how much of that Favor is gotten because of that, and we have no idea if engagement would fall off at all if the Keys were one-time obtained or able to stack. Even ZOS' data can't tell them WHY people are doing certain content, just that it's being done.

So it sounds like ZOS designed an engagement loop for the event that increased activity, so it worked. Sounds good to me.

Not reeeaaaaally though? It's kind of the same thing as false difficulty via making enemies damage sponges. It doesn't make things necessarily harder, it just makes them more tedious. In this case, it's potentially false replayability/engagement loop by forcing people into the content they may not really like. Which can VERY much lead to people getting burned out from having to grind stuff they DON'T want to do in order to get to the stuff they DO want to do, because it becomes tedious.

And really...if anything it's *anti* engagement. We've seen numerous people talk about how they WANT to run the Dungeons more with friends or with raid groups or whatever, but they can't because they either don't have the Keys at all, or they're saving the Keys for prior groups they're committed to. People aren't doing the content as much as they'd want to because they don't have the Keys to do it as much as they'd want to. That's not increasing activity, that's more than likely decreasing it. We'd have to know how many people are doing content despite having Keys they're holding onto to know, and I doubt that's information ZOS would share.

Resresi_Willowwind

i enjoy it quite a lot... something totally new!

i would prefer if fetch quests were slightly less intruded upon by hordes of monsters, a bit easier to do alone. especially those, where the target is very hard to find (quadb, i'm looking at you!). reason: fetch quests would normally split the group, as we try to catch targets in between bosses, unless we would form a group especially for those. but i haven't seen any so far.

have not understood so far, how to find those hidden monsters from golden pursuits.

congratulations overall!

ESO_player123

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

I would also like to learn about specific examples of gatekeeping in groups in Event GF. As in what requirements are placed on those trying to join one. I'm not talking about groups for the dungeons or the Trial here. I mean the groups for doing faction/blood in the sand quests, puzzles,key or favor farming etc.

shadoza

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

Strawman argument?
I did not say the word elitist.
Nor did I say that grouping equates to gatekeeping.
I said: "I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)"

shadoza

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

I would also like to learn about specific examples of gatekeeping in groups in Event GF. As in what requirements are placed on those trying to join one. I'm not talking about groups for the dungeons or the Trial here. I mean the groups for doing faction/blood in the sand quests, puzzles,key or favor farming etc.

The player I chatted with stated that three groups that were active in the GF for the 'event' had prerequisites. The two that I could verify were asking for specifics. One wanted only CP100 or higher, the other wanted only tanks.

Taarente

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It seems that much of the criticism on the forum comes from people who have not played it.

I’ve seen a lot of must know mechanics groups forming for the trial. So how do you do the trial first time? That wasn’t happening in the early days. For what it’s worth i spent 10 days in the zone completed quests, did dungeons and trial, completed the side achievements got my 10000 favour and decided i’m finished now. i joined pugs, helped out, tanked, healed so I put plenty into the zone.

Rungar

had this formula been applied to a full existing zone ( invasion zone variant) you would of been able to soothe the solo crowds concerns as the harder group content( and access to dungeons and trials) could of been strategically placed at the (gated/instanced) cities and towns and harder solo content placed more so in the wilds/delves so there is something for everyone. Still a great first shot at integrated content. Obviously the nightmarket is a copy of the imperial city in pve mode but it does show you can make use of existing assets and locations to great effect with some thematic and gameplay tweaks

Vonnegut2506

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

I would also like to learn about specific examples of gatekeeping in groups in Event GF. As in what requirements are placed on those trying to join one. I'm not talking about groups for the dungeons or the Trial here. I mean the groups for doing faction/blood in the sand quests, puzzles,key or favor farming etc.

I got to 10k faction on NA and 5k faction on EU just doing group finder groups. There was never any requirement to join district groups other than a couple that needed a tank because they were going after the skirmish or argent bosses. I was never refused entry into any group finder group. I was never kicked from any group finder group even though my EU account is low CP. No one was kicked from any group I was in. People just like to throw out "gatekeeping" to try and demonize any group activity.

Al_Ex_Andre

Hey dev, don't change too much how the zones were handled for now, this content was a very nice work. Especially with the group finder. On the flip side, quests are difficult to spot, maybie this, would need an update.

Cheers

Psyphiman

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

Strawman argument?
I did not say the word elitist.
Nor did I say that grouping equates to gatekeeping.
I said: "I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)"

Somehow I suspected you would hone in on the word “elitist” (which was not my point) in order to be dismissive and repeat (once again) your dubious claim that there is gatekeeping in the Night Market.

So is your argument that there is non-elitist gatekeeping in the Night Market? Is there any kind of gatekeeping than elitist?

BagOfBadgers

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

When are you in game? I and others would group with you,with the only possible requirment is that you rez others in the group. I also know the GF is the MVP and ZERG riding is epic.

AScarlato

Arunei wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

We have numbers that COULD be inflated because of the way getting Keys seems to work. Like I said before, it's possible people aren't doing certain content because that's what they WANT to be doing, it's because they HAVE to in order to do the Dungeons/Trials. We have no way of knowing how much of that Favor is gotten because of that, and we have no idea if engagement would fall off at all if the Keys were one-time obtained or able to stack. Even ZOS' data can't tell them WHY people are doing certain content, just that it's being done.

So it sounds like ZOS designed an engagement loop for the event that increased activity, so it worked. Sounds good to me.

Not reeeaaaaally though? It's kind of the same thing as false difficulty via making enemies damage sponges. It doesn't make things necessarily harder, it just makes them more tedious. In this case, it's potentially false replayability/engagement loop by forcing people into the content they may not really like. Which can VERY much lead to people getting burned out from having to grind stuff they DON'T want to do in order to get to the stuff they DO want to do, because it becomes tedious.

And really...if anything it's *anti* engagement. We've seen numerous people talk about how they WANT to run the Dungeons more with friends or with raid groups or whatever, but they can't because they either don't have the Keys at all, or they're saving the Keys for prior groups they're committed to. People aren't doing the content as much as they'd want to because they don't have the Keys to do it as much as they'd want to. That's not increasing activity, that's more than likely decreasing it. We'd have to know how many people are doing content despite having Keys they're holding onto to know, and I doubt that's information ZOS would share.

I was responding to your comment where you said people are specifically doing bosses they don't really feel like doing to refarm keys, because they want the keys. So they are still doing it, hence engagement was increased. That's the point. I'm at 8K favor and need 2K more for something I want, so while I am a bit tired of NM at the moment due to playing it so much and don't really want to be there at the moment, I still am because there is something I want. Whether we *want* to be there at a given moment doesn't change that we are making the event more successful and accessible to everyone who wants to be there as well.

As to your new argument that people are hoarding keys and not using them because they would need to get them again...I don't really know what to say to that. It sounds like if they didn't need to farm them, they wouldn't be doing those bosses anyway so it's a net neutral, no?

This is also common in MMO design in general - there are lots of repetitive grinds that make up some of the gameplay loop overall. Just do daily dungeons and see how many of those people are really enjoying themselves and want to be there as they rush as fast as possible.

wolfie1.0.

Can we please do something for color blind accessibility?

Red names, red spiders on a red landscape... for a skirmish in the skittering area...

Please at least allow us to change the color of how enemy names appear.

spartaxoxo

Snipped for brevity

Arunei wrote: »

We have numbers that COULD be inflated because of the way getting Keys seems to work. Like I said before, it's possible people aren't doing certain content because that's what they WANT to be doing, it's because they HAVE to in order to do the Dungeons/Trials. We have no way of knowing how much of that Favor is gotten because of that, and we have no idea if engagement would fall off at all if the Keys were one-time obtained or able to stack. Even ZOS' data can't tell them WHY people are doing certain content, just that it's being done.

Such people likely enjoy doing this type of content because the rewards for the dungeons and trials are not good.

We can't judge something's success from just a few weeks of it being introduced. Most everything is a success at first. But that doesn't necessarily mean it'll maintain that momentum. We won't have a really accurate picture of how successful it really is until closer to the end of the first run.

That's true of all content in the game, including zones. But look how angry people got that there is no new zone even though zones empty out a couple weeks after release without new rewards being added. That's the reason they stagger zone rewards.

It's not because zones are unsuccessful or that people didn't enjoy doing them. Zones have already been confirmed as the single most popular content in the game years ago. It is because people have finished them and there's not much reason to immediately replay things you have been playing for a couple weeks, even if you enjoyed yourself.

ESO_player123

shadoza wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

I would also like to learn about specific examples of gatekeeping in groups in Event GF. As in what requirements are placed on those trying to join one. I'm not talking about groups for the dungeons or the Trial here. I mean the groups for doing faction/blood in the sand quests, puzzles,key or favor farming etc.

The player I chatted with stated that three groups that were active in the GF for the 'event' had prerequisites. The two that I could verify were asking for specifics. One wanted only CP100 or higher, the other wanted only tanks.

If the group was missing a tank then wanting one is not gatekeeping but ensuring that the group does not wipe over and over and over. If your friend were already in such group, that would be for their benefit as well (especially if they are sub CP 100). The tanks are few and the DPS are many,. I'm a DPS myself, so I really appreciate the works tanks do in NM (and see the difference when one is present in a group).

As for CP 100 requirements, did your friend mention if this was a dungeon or trial group (where it would make more sense)? 99% of the groups for the districts do not have such requirements. I'm sure it's easy to find one without (at least that is my experience on PCNA).

ESO_player123

Taarente wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It seems that much of the criticism on the forum comes from people who have not played it.

I’ve seen a lot of must know mechanics groups forming for the trial. So how do you do the trial first time? That wasn’t happening in the early days. For what it’s worth i spent 10 days in the zone completed quests, did dungeons and trial, completed the side achievements got my 10000 favour and decided i’m finished now. i joined pugs, helped out, tanked, healed so I put plenty into the zone.

Yes, unfortunately that is going to happen more and more. This trial cannot be out dpsed, people must work together and be coordinated. I still see groups that do not have any requirements about knowing mechs, but just be prepared to spend a lot of time there first time if you join one.

I went there only 2 times so far. The first time we've been there for hours, learned how to do it, managed to go through the mech heavy stage twice, but both times failed at the boss stage and disbanded because it was very late. It was a lot of fun though.

The second time it was much smoother because we had a great lead and more people new mechs (including myself thanks to that first run that was not successful).

Edit: I'm talking about PUGs from GF for the event, not organized groups.

DenverRalphy

Group requirements are not gatekeeping. Any player can still walk through the gate. As well, any group is free to choose with whom they wish to walk through it. There are numerous reasons groups can require specific conditions. Many if not most of them simply for the good of the mission. And perhaps sometimes it's just cliques being snobby. Not invited to the party for whatever reason? Start one of your own. There are plenty of willing and able bodies lined up to join.

allochthons

Neither the NM trial, nor any of the precinct 4-player dungeons, count towards trials or dungeons for Tome challenges. I don't think they count for the "complete X dungeons while grouped" golden pursuit either.

Working as designed? Unintended consequence? Bug?

Psyphiman

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Group requirements are not gatekeeping. Any player can still walk through the gate. As well, any group is free to choose with whom they wish to walk through it. There are numerous reasons groups can require specific conditions. Many if not most of them simply for the good of the mission. And perhaps sometimes it's just cliques being snobby. Not invited to the party for whatever reason? Start one of your own. There are plenty of willing and able bodies lined up to join.

Excellent points. When people claim there is “gatekeeping” in the NM groupfinder, it makes me think of Inego Montoya. “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

spartaxoxo

shadoza wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Psyphiman wrote: »

I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction. In most of the groups I’ve been in many people don’t say a word. You can think of playing in a group as having 11 companions. They just help you with hit points and damage. And you can make them go away when the quest is finished.

Edit: The 11 Companions would be a great guild name!

I think some folks have had a bad experience because not every group is pleasant. Some are very selective and will kick you or avoid you if you do not meet their gear or skills standards. (gatekeeping is real)
Asocial people might find public rejection confusing or difficult to not take personally. They want to experience the Night Market and maybe they want the house, but they are loathed to risk that aggressive behavior that sometimes comes with dealing with strangers. (You can see the aggression in the fora. Imagine what it might be like for them in the game chat where the Devs don't see it.)

The house rewards are often viewed as a great reward by those that do not decorate because they give a quick access to various countries on the map for new characters that had not been there.

On the bad side, the Night Market was billed as an event for everyone when it was introduced. While that bill has been toned down, it still rings in the minds of the players that heard it. If the Night Market had been billed as a new approach to a trial dungeon, this whole scene would have been different. The controversy with solo players would not be.

Maybe there is some gatekeeping in vet dungeons and trials but it’s an overreach to say there is gatekeeping in Night Market pickup groups. It sounds like the anxiety you are describing is from people’s past experiences or biases. Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market.

There is gatekeeping in the Night Markets.
You said: "I don’t understand the criticism about social interaction." Now you say: " Then they decide in advance they don’t like the Night Market."
I offered an answer to your wonder. If you have a predetermined concept/understanding then I cannot say more.

How do you know there is gatekeeping in the Night Market? Have you played it? I have, and I have seen absolutely no gatekeeping. The groups have been casual, friendly, and fun.

It’s funny that most of the criticism on the forum seems to come from people who have not played it.

Yes.
Assuming that someone did not play Night Market because they don't like it is error. I played it in PTS. I played it in Live. I have read the grouping calls in live. That is how I know there is gatekeeping in Night Market.

I’d be curious to hear from others who can relate to your experience. Would anyone else describe grouping in the Night Market as elitist gatekeeping?

I would also like to learn about specific examples of gatekeeping in groups in Event GF. As in what requirements are placed on those trying to join one. I'm not talking about groups for the dungeons or the Trial here. I mean the groups for doing faction/blood in the sand quests, puzzles,key or favor farming etc.

The player I chatted with stated that three groups that were active in the GF for the 'event' had prerequisites. The two that I could verify were asking for specifics. One wanted only CP100 or higher, the other wanted only tanks.

The content is designed so that everyone has a role to fulfill. This means a group will want at least one tank and healer instead of only DPS. Which is the opposite of gatekeeping and is inclusive design that ensures there's something to do for all roles. When people make the groups they will reserve a few spots for supports. And those spots are generally filled last because supports are the minority group. The group isn't gatekeeping DPS. They can only take 12 people as a hard limit and that particular group is full on everything but tanks.

Equating a group that can't take more DPS with a group that won't take them is not remotely fair.

Aylish

I think you changed the spawns of Faceted enemies again. Yesterday, they were EVERYWHERE. Today I haven't seen a single one, again.