What is PVE DPS meta now (u47)

Parasaurolophus · August 23

My previous raid completed its goal within a week of U47. I played a standard arc/nb/plar setup with the banner. I need to do a parse to look for a new raid, and I would really like to switch to my stam NB. However, esologs is still shows almost 100% “green.” And not everyone is using the banner anymore. But I see that many have started replacing the NB or Templar slot with a DK. Also, I still cannot find any new up-to-date parses on YouTube.

Renato90085 · August 23

arc/dk/temp
but you still need a nb line in 1 Dps because group crit buff

Asikoo · August 23

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

Renato90085 · August 23

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

I still keep my pure nb,and play game,but we can't in a unbalanced patch use weakest class do any newthing

SkaiFaith · August 23

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

tomofhyrule · August 23

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

Soarora · August 23

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

Some people want a meta build. Some people find meta builds to be their fun. They’re not the problem you so proclaim, it’s the amount of people (not that anyone does, but the amount who do) who do not allow performant builds that are off-meta that’s more of a problem.

OP, I think it’s still up in the air and that’s why you can’t find an exact answer. I’ve been hearing 4 different things and I don’t know which one’s meta. I guess choose your favorite between cro, plar, the other plar line, and dk and put it with arc and blade unless you’re asked to run a specific line.

Erickson9610 · August 24

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

ZOS can keep this individual player freedom while improving build diversity in endgame content.

In fact, every skill line should have a unique buff; that way players must bring them into trials, making each of their builds different. Then, if everyone's still using the same damage skill, balance those skill lines until there are several equally viable options. The unique buff from each skill line would encourage you to use the damage skill from that line instead of the skill that dominates the meta.

Note that this is not asking for a buff for retaining all of your original skill lines. This is asking for a buff for each individual skill line. What's important is not keeping 3 skill lines from a class, but rather increasing build diversity in the endgame — that means multiple people shouldn't have the same subclassing build, but should still perform equally well.

Then, for those who care, it becomes a matter of picking one of the many meta subclassing builds that's the most appealing to how you like to play. Who knows — if each skill line has a unique buff from one another, then maybe by chance there will be a meta build that doesn't use subclassing at all.

Once again, there shouldn't be this divide between subclassing and pureclassing. Both should feel natural and have a meta build for them, and the best way to do that isn't to keep holding on to that "class identity" we once had, but rather to make new identities that use different skill lines from other people out of necessity.

tomofhyrule · August 24

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

ZOS can keep this individual player freedom while improving build diversity in endgame content.

In fact, every skill line should have a unique buff; that way players must bring them into trials, making each of their builds different. Then, if everyone's still using the same damage skill, balance those skill lines until there are several equally viable options. The unique buff from each skill line would encourage you to use the damage skill from that line instead of the skill that dominates the meta.

Note that this is not asking for a buff for retaining all of your original skill lines. This is asking for a buff for each individual skill line. What's important is not keeping 3 skill lines from a class, but rather increasing build diversity in the endgame — that means multiple people shouldn't have the same subclassing build, but should still perform equally well.

Then, for those who care, it becomes a matter of picking one of the many meta subclassing builds that's the most appealing to how you like to play. Who knows — if each skill line has a unique buff from one another, then maybe by chance there will be a meta build that doesn't use subclassing at all.

Once again, there shouldn't be this divide between subclassing and pureclassing. Both should feel natural and have a meta build for them, and the best way to do that isn't to keep holding on to that "class identity" we once had, but rather to make new identities that use different skill lines from other people out of necessity.

We... sorta... have that with some of the lines. Features like Earthen Heart's Battle Roar that restore resources with ults or Restoring Light's Master Ritualist that help with rez speed.

But yes, ZOS really needs to look at the overchosen lines and why they're overchosen. Herald is mostly because Fatecarver is a two-button rotation where flail is a heal and spammable and AoE and empowers beam and provides a unique debuff, while Fatecarver is the strongest cleave in the game and hits from miles away. Those two skills are very frontloaded. Meanwhile, Assassination is overchosen because of a bunch of free crit passives.

Now Arc is a bit overtuned in the first place, but NBs were never super stong by themselves in PvE. If some of the passives were moved around to equalize the power level, that would make players have to make choices in their builds.

I'm not going to pretend that balance before Subclassing was good though. Arc was still OP, and pretty well class/role combos like Warden DPS, DK healer, or NB anything weren't really seen much in trials. One cool thing I wish they would have done would havew been to change up the Undaunted Mettle passive - it's supposed ot encourage people to wear multiple armor weights, but that seems pretty irrelevant after the armor changes. But it would be cool if that increased stats based on the number of unique Classes in the group.
So now that Subclassing is a thing, I'd like that to buff based on the number of unique Class lines to really try to reward groups where everyone is not running the same build.

Still though, there should not be one build that smokes everything. That's really bad balance, and that's what we have now.

Araneae6537 · August 25

Unless you’re chasing numbers, there really is flexibility in what and how you play — or maybe you should consider finding a different group! (I realize this isn’t relevant for score chasing and such.) Anyway, you don’t HAVE to chase the meta, but if players want to, that’s their choice. It would be much worse for everything to be the same and choices to be only cosmetic. My ideal would be for different skills and builds are best for different fights, depending on things like number and mobility of opponents, vulnerabilities and resistances.

Araneae6537 · August 25

Renato90085 wrote: »

arc/dk/temp
but you still need a nb line in 1 Dps because group crit buff

I’m curious, why DK? The boost to physical damage from Sorc would be relevant to Cephilarch’s Flail whereas I don’t see how DK synergizes — unless it’s just for the backbar Unstable Wall with fire staff?

kargen27 · August 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

Hotdog_23 · August 25

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

arc/dk/temp
but you still need a nb line in 1 Dps because group crit buff

I’m curious, why DK? The boost to physical damage from Sorc would be relevant to Cephilarch’s Flail whereas I don’t see how DK synergizes — unless it’s just for the backbar Unstable Wall with fire staff?

Longer lasting DOT's I believe. More time beaming less time reapplying DOT's.

Stay safe

Renato90085 · August 25

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

arc/dk/temp
but you still need a nb line in 1 Dps because group crit buff

I’m curious, why DK? The boost to physical damage from Sorc would be relevant to Cephilarch’s Flail whereas I don’t see how DK synergizes — unless it’s just for the backbar Unstable Wall with fire staff?

dot skill and ult is best,Molten Whip have free 300 wd in back bar,like nb last patch Relentless Focus,so i thing this delete too in next patch,nb only passive good and if you build not beam so can shot Merciless Resolve
and crit set change ,like Sentinel and Yokeda,now is a good choose in real fight
and sorc ..the storm line only 1 skill(Hurricane) good in pve and Lightning Floodand is game weakest dot
and the 3 dps passive not better than nb assassin
nb line still good just because zos delete/nerf many crit chance way in game old patch(khajiit/dagger/thief)if game start add more crit choose(like now),nb line not first take

tomofhyrule · August 25

.

kargen27 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

Obviously you need meta for leaderboards. I'm not talking about that. And yes, even HMs (and even some trifectas) can be done off meta. Everyone knows that, and I've even done some of them.

But there's one thing that your argument (which is also the devs' viewpoint!) loves to forget: you can't solo a vet trial with a bungh of NPCs. You have to find groups for that, and that means you're at the mercy of whatever the raid lead wants. And as much as you can say "hey, I'm actually really good with my setup," they're perfectly at liberty to cut you and roster someone else instead.
So... that means that if you want to play off-meta, you're left with PUGs (which does not offer a high chance of completing high-level things like HMs), and even in standard vets you'll have people demand you get kicked for not beaming.

That's the problem. There are very few places that actively allow people to come in with an off-meta setup, and especially now that the power difference between a meta build and an off-meta build is so large. In a perfect world, there would be a very small difference (or even better, the 'easy build anyone can do' would not be as strong as the 'technically challenging build that only a few people can master') and more playstyles would be welcome.

But as I've always asked anytime someone gave this argument, and never yet have gotten an answer for: please list the Discords for trial groups doing HMs that allow players to bring off-meta builds for the benefit of players who want to do high-level content but not play the one single meta.
Seems all the "you don't have to play meta!" people actually don't know where you can reasonably go to play high level content without playing meta...

licenturion · August 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Still though, there should not be one build that smokes everything. That's really bad balance, and that's what we have now.

Even if they make stuff more balanced, most of the competitive crowd will choose the stuff that is best, even it gives you a 0.5 percent advantage.

That is just how competitive gaming works in 2025.

I see this in every game.
- In COD I get killed almost by the same 2 popular loadouts of the month
- In Marvel Rivals people have a miserable time because every match has the hero that is slightly overtuned this patch
- In Diablo 4 everyone is waiting until their favorite streamer guides are out with 'with is the best SSS class and loadout this season' so they can obliterate everything with as less time as possible.
- ...

Even if ZOS balanced everything, this behaviour will continue because it is gamer thing to get as much rewards as possible with the least amount of time invested. The industry amd streamers made people this way with their endless grinds for unlocks amd rewards.

Soarora · August 25

licenturion wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Still though, there should not be one build that smokes everything. That's really bad balance, and that's what we have now.

Even if they make stuff more balanced, most of the competitive crowd will choose the stuff that is best, even it gives you a 0.5 percent advantage.

That is just how competitive gaming works in 2025.

I see this in every game.
- In COD I get killed almost by the same 2 popular loadouts of the month
- In Marvel Rivals people have a miserable time because every match has the hero that is slightly overtuned this patch
- In Diablo 4 everyone is waiting until their favorite streamer guides are out with 'with is the best SSS class and loadout this season' so they can obliterate everything with as less time as possible.
- ...

Even if ZOS balanced everything, this behaviour will continue because it is gamer thing to get as much rewards as possible with the least amount of time invested. The industry amd streamers made people this way with their endless grinds for unlocks amd rewards.

Truth. Join the dungeon dark side … we have … generally less intensity over builds as long as they function haha.

twisttop138 · August 25

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know tons of people who feel they must follow the meta. I have a meta toon because group play means I want to bring the best I can to help my group. I don't run in groups that require it really, only that you do your best, with a reasonable minimum number but Zos doesn't force anyone to run meta. If you're forcing yourself to do something, maybe stop but some of us enjoy doing the best we can to help our teammates.

YandereGirlfriend · August 25

tomofhyrule wrote: »

.

kargen27 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

Obviously you need meta for leaderboards. I'm not talking about that. And yes, even HMs (and even some trifectas) can be done off meta. Everyone knows that, and I've even done some of them.

But there's one thing that your argument (which is also the devs' viewpoint!) loves to forget: you can't solo a vet trial with a bungh of NPCs. You have to find groups for that, and that means you're at the mercy of whatever the raid lead wants. And as much as you can say "hey, I'm actually really good with my setup," they're perfectly at liberty to cut you and roster someone else instead.
So... that means that if you want to play off-meta, you're left with PUGs (which does not offer a high chance of completing high-level things like HMs), and even in standard vets you'll have people demand you get kicked for not beaming.

That's the problem. There are very few places that actively allow people to come in with an off-meta setup, and especially now that the power difference between a meta build and an off-meta build is so large. In a perfect world, there would be a very small difference (or even better, the 'easy build anyone can do' would not be as strong as the 'technically challenging build that only a few people can master') and more playstyles would be welcome.

But as I've always asked anytime someone gave this argument, and never yet have gotten an answer for: please list the Discords for trial groups doing HMs that allow players to bring off-meta builds for the benefit of players who want to do high-level content but not play the one single meta.
Seems all the "you don't have to play meta!" people actually don't know where you can reasonably go to play high level content without playing meta...

That may be true that's a player toxicity issue more than a game issue.

If raid leads are so narrow-minded and uncreative in their thinking then they probably aren't the folk whom you want to be following anyway.

If a raid leader told me, "It's Beam Or Bust!" then I would tell them, "Bye, Felicia!"

Æthërnüm · August 25

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

words of 50k dps on amalgama

sarahthes · August 25

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

.

kargen27 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

Obviously you need meta for leaderboards. I'm not talking about that. And yes, even HMs (and even some trifectas) can be done off meta. Everyone knows that, and I've even done some of them.

But there's one thing that your argument (which is also the devs' viewpoint!) loves to forget: you can't solo a vet trial with a bungh of NPCs. You have to find groups for that, and that means you're at the mercy of whatever the raid lead wants. And as much as you can say "hey, I'm actually really good with my setup," they're perfectly at liberty to cut you and roster someone else instead.
So... that means that if you want to play off-meta, you're left with PUGs (which does not offer a high chance of completing high-level things like HMs), and even in standard vets you'll have people demand you get kicked for not beaming.

That's the problem. There are very few places that actively allow people to come in with an off-meta setup, and especially now that the power difference between a meta build and an off-meta build is so large. In a perfect world, there would be a very small difference (or even better, the 'easy build anyone can do' would not be as strong as the 'technically challenging build that only a few people can master') and more playstyles would be welcome.

But as I've always asked anytime someone gave this argument, and never yet have gotten an answer for: please list the Discords for trial groups doing HMs that allow players to bring off-meta builds for the benefit of players who want to do high-level content but not play the one single meta.
Seems all the "you don't have to play meta!" people actually don't know where you can reasonably go to play high level content without playing meta...

That may be true that's a player toxicity issue more than a game issue.

If raid leads are so narrow-minded and uncreative in their thinking then they probably aren't the folk whom you want to be following anyway.

If a raid leader told me, "It's Beam Or Bust!" then I would tell them, "Bye, Felicia!"

Most of the raid leads I know comp their own runs. They come up with what they want because they believe it will be effective. It is the culture at the higher tiers of raiding this way, and everyone who goes into the higher tiers of raiding eventually conforms (even if they don't want to) because they learn that you do need to hit certain metrics to do things the way you want to do them.

And sometimes hitting those metrics and doing it that way is easier than slogging it out with a bunch of people on off meta builds.

You can play the way you want up to a certain point, but if you want to do the hardest content nearly everyone winds up gravitating towards the meta for that specific content for a reason.

YandereGirlfriend · August 26

sarahthes wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

.

kargen27 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

Obviously you need meta for leaderboards. I'm not talking about that. And yes, even HMs (and even some trifectas) can be done off meta. Everyone knows that, and I've even done some of them.

But there's one thing that your argument (which is also the devs' viewpoint!) loves to forget: you can't solo a vet trial with a bungh of NPCs. You have to find groups for that, and that means you're at the mercy of whatever the raid lead wants. And as much as you can say "hey, I'm actually really good with my setup," they're perfectly at liberty to cut you and roster someone else instead.
So... that means that if you want to play off-meta, you're left with PUGs (which does not offer a high chance of completing high-level things like HMs), and even in standard vets you'll have people demand you get kicked for not beaming.

That's the problem. There are very few places that actively allow people to come in with an off-meta setup, and especially now that the power difference between a meta build and an off-meta build is so large. In a perfect world, there would be a very small difference (or even better, the 'easy build anyone can do' would not be as strong as the 'technically challenging build that only a few people can master') and more playstyles would be welcome.

But as I've always asked anytime someone gave this argument, and never yet have gotten an answer for: please list the Discords for trial groups doing HMs that allow players to bring off-meta builds for the benefit of players who want to do high-level content but not play the one single meta.
Seems all the "you don't have to play meta!" people actually don't know where you can reasonably go to play high level content without playing meta...

That may be true that's a player toxicity issue more than a game issue.

If raid leads are so narrow-minded and uncreative in their thinking then they probably aren't the folk whom you want to be following anyway.

If a raid leader told me, "It's Beam Or Bust!" then I would tell them, "Bye, Felicia!"

Most of the raid leads I know comp their own runs. They come up with what they want because they believe it will be effective. It is the culture at the higher tiers of raiding this way, and everyone who goes into the higher tiers of raiding eventually conforms (even if they don't want to) because they learn that you do need to hit certain metrics to do things the way you want to do them.

And sometimes hitting those metrics and doing it that way is easier than slogging it out with a bunch of people on off meta builds.

You can play the way you want up to a certain point, but if you want to do the hardest content nearly everyone winds up gravitating towards the meta for that specific content for a reason.

Sure, but the frequency of people complaining about being gate-kept by blinkered leads far outstrips the vanishingly tiny actually end-game raiding community, most of whom you could probably fit into one in-game Friends List per server.

It's like a form of mimicry that leads lower down on the totem pole emulate likely without even knowing why they are doing it or why certain things are or are not chosen. It's like when people ask for meta builds and then run them terribly because they have no idea how any of it fits together or it is simply too far above their skill level to handle (admittedly, this latter scenario was more the case prior to Arcanist...).

So yeah, sure, if someone is actually progging a Trifecta for a recent trial then I can understand and accept that. But that isn't the situation where most people encounter that blinkered mentality because most people never sniff that level of raiding. If you join a random Group Finder vTrial and get kicked for not being a Beamer then that leader is being a toolbag, full-stop.

kargen27 · August 26

tomofhyrule wrote: »

.

kargen27 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

But as I've always asked anytime someone gave this argument, and never yet have gotten an answer for: please list the Discords for trial groups doing HMs that allow players to bring off-meta builds for the benefit of players who want to do high-level content but not play the one single meta.
Seems all the "you don't have to play meta!" people actually don't know where you can reasonably go to play high level content without playing meta...

The only Discord channels I use are associated with guilds I joined in game. One has an elite group that coordinates builds. That same guild also runs at least three trials a week that allows players to bring whatever they want. The other guilds have no build requirements but one does have a DPS check on a dummy for the group doing hard mode content and requires you've completed the trial in vet before joining hard mode. We've finished most trials in hard mode. That guild also has two progression groups and one of those two groups have finished some hard mode trials.
If players want to try hard mode trials without going to the meta builds they can find a guild that allows for playing that style. My point stands that you do not need a meta build to finish that content.
You just need to find other players that enjoy the game the way you do. Unfortunately successful hard mode with pugs is very rare and might be more reliant on builds because there will be less group coordination. Group coordination is much more important than build in end game activities. Pugs don't bring that.

Araneae6537 · August 26

twisttop138 wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know tons of people who feel they must follow the meta. I have a meta toon because group play means I want to bring the best I can to help my group. I don't run in groups that require it really, only that you do your best, with a reasonable minimum number but Zos doesn't force anyone to run meta. If you're forcing yourself to do something, maybe stop but some of us enjoy doing the best we can to help our teammates.

If that’s understood to be the goal, then yes, of course! I do try to keep up with what is meta for healers and do my best to have all options available to bring what the group needs when we’re stretching our abilities. But I run a lot of vet trials for fun, or that have other requirements like all pets (haven’t done that since subclassing was introduced — I should point that out to the raid leads, hehe) or it’s simply a vet trial for fun or gear and so as long as people are having fun, it’s all good, and experimental or thematic builds are welcome.

kargen27 · August 26

Araneae6537 wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know tons of people who feel they must follow the meta. I have a meta toon because group play means I want to bring the best I can to help my group. I don't run in groups that require it really, only that you do your best, with a reasonable minimum number but Zos doesn't force anyone to run meta. If you're forcing yourself to do something, maybe stop but some of us enjoy doing the best we can to help our teammates.

If that’s understood to be the goal, then yes, of course! I do try to keep up with what is meta for healers and do my best to have all options available to bring what the group needs when we’re stretching our abilities. But I run a lot of vet trials for fun, or that have other requirements like all pets (haven’t done that since subclassing was introduced — I should point that out to the raid leads, hehe) or it’s simply a vet trial for fun or gear and so as long as people are having fun, it’s all good, and experimental or thematic builds are welcome.

I used to be in a guild that did naked trials on Friday nights. No armor. Those things were a blast.

Daoin · August 26

tomofhyrule wrote: »

.

kargen27 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Asikoo wrote: »

One of the biggest problems in ESO is exactly this mindset. Too many players think they have to follow whatever setup the meta or esologs shows, and ZOS keeps ignoring how unhealthy that is for the game.

If you want to play a Nightblade, just play it. Enjoy the class and the game itself. Chasing numbers only because “that’s what DPS charts say” is nothing but fake power at the cost of your own fun. That’s why so many players burn out, they stop enjoying the game for what it actually offers and instead just follow whatever DPS addon or parse video is trendy.

I’m honestly glad I stopped putting money into this game, because until ZOS starts encouraging choice instead of funneling everyone into the same cookie-cutter builds, the community will keep repeating the same cycle.

EDIT:
I saw someone say this about D4 to Blizzard: "Why don’t you just let the game die? You’ve completely lost the essence of D4."

Well, I feel the same;
ZoS, Can you stop with all the nonsense you’ve created around the Elder Scrolls just to squeeze out maximum profit? If you truly don’t care about the spirit of the game anymore, then just let it die, close the servers. The Elder Scrolls deserves far better than this.

I don't know, man... I tend to blame the players - if someone wants to forever chase the META that's on him...

Maybe bad take on my part but it's just my opinion.

I am so tired of hearing this "hot take." It basically belongs in the same bin as "oh, you have a stomachache? Well, that's your fault since you could drink arsenic and then your stomachache would go away really fast!" It's one of those 'fixes' that doesn't really solve any problems at all.

Look, this is not TES6. This is an MMO. That means other people are around. And that means that if you're doing endgame PvP or PvE, you cannot go into the way you want to play and expect to have any success without acknowledging the meta. Because either way, if you're coming in with something non-meta, you will be facing others who do have the meta, and you will be compared to them.

Now of course a meta will always exist. But pre U46, it was not this bad. Yes, trial teams were primarily Arcanists, but there was always a slot or two for a support DPS like an MKSorc or Z'enDK or Templar beam bot, and even things like a Corpseburster Necro outDPSed the Arcanists. Trials always had a Warden healer, but the other could be a Templar or Sorc or NB ore really anything but a DK. DK Tanks were generally good, but there were times that Sorc or Necro tanks were better choices.
And now: "If you are a DPS, these are your three lines. If you are a healer, here are the two setups. If you are a tank, here are the two setups." Basically no variety anymore.

The fact that in U46-47 there's one meta to rule them all is a game problem, not a player problem. If that one specific meta weren't so much more powerful than anything else, then people would be able to bring something else. But even the best player in the world would do better on the meta setup than on whatever they wanted to bring, and that's just indicative of a terribly balanced game.

I've noticed that the people who make the "lol just don't play meta!" argument tend to avoid PvP or endgame PvE or group play in general, and mostly stick to soloing everything. They tend to think of ESO as their TES6 proxy. And they love that they can make whatever build they want since their gameplay doesn't depend on others. But the players who are involved in endgame do have more issues with being shoehorned into one setup because nothing else even comes close to that. After all, look at the responses from the "how did you feel about U46?" thread - most of the people who are not happy with Subclassing talk about how they do endgame content and how they're being forced to play one specific combo to remain competitive, whereas most of the people who are happy talk about how they can solo things they couldn't before and how they can now make their elementalist or zookeeper a reality.

If your end game is making the leader board then you need the meta build. Competitive battle grounds you also for the most part need a meta build. If you are in a guild that has dueling competitions and you take it serious you need a meta build.

Nothing else in the game needs a meta build. It hasn't for a very long time. So if your end game isn't battle grounds, leader boards or dueling you don't need a meta for your end game.

Obviously you need meta for leaderboards. I'm not talking about that. And yes, even HMs (and even some trifectas) can be done off meta. Everyone knows that, and I've even done some of them.

But there's one thing that your argument (which is also the devs' viewpoint!) loves to forget: you can't solo a vet trial with a bungh of NPCs. You have to find groups for that, and that means you're at the mercy of whatever the raid lead wants. And as much as you can say "hey, I'm actually really good with my setup," they're perfectly at liberty to cut you and roster someone else instead.
So... that means that if you want to play off-meta, you're left with PUGs (which does not offer a high chance of completing high-level things like HMs), and even in standard vets you'll have people demand you get kicked for not beaming.

That's the problem. There are very few places that actively allow people to come in with an off-meta setup, and especially now that the power difference between a meta build and an off-meta build is so large. In a perfect world, there would be a very small difference (or even better, the 'easy build anyone can do' would not be as strong as the 'technically challenging build that only a few people can master') and more playstyles would be welcome.

But as I've always asked anytime someone gave this argument, and never yet have gotten an answer for: please list the Discords for trial groups doing HMs that allow players to bring off-meta builds for the benefit of players who want to do high-level content but not play the one single meta.
Seems all the "you don't have to play meta!" people actually don't know where you can reasonably go to play high level content without playing meta...

but lol if nobody ever gave you the answer to that last question its likely they just did not want to and i really dont know who you been talking to but it's obvious because at the very very least you just need to look at group finder from time to time other than that i would think the answer stuck out like a sore thumb for people who dont even do that, my advice is stop chatting to anyone using the word 'allow' the groups in finder though may or may not make it depending on how many already have the clear when joining but they still join when possible. only one thing here from everything i read in the entire thread is meta may serve score pushing the weekly better but there are just no worth while prizes for that anyway for some
i think after subclassing hm's died down alot in group finder but i really dont check that much now, besides thats what happens when you legit cut off half a playerbase making them quit from playing how they like to play and insist now they should should play how they want to play after the deeds are done until the next population player culling seemingly a few times a year now, sure you could plug the gaps with short term power players but eso just is not what it used to be and can never be again. not even focusing blame at any one thing in particular here but player behaviour ranks really really high on eso is where it is today in my book, the younger gen i can cope but the older gen should know better having to had to deal with stuff face to face in the day

Ezhh · August 26

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

That may be true that's a player toxicity issue more than a game issue.

If raid leads are so narrow-minded and uncreative in their thinking then they probably aren't the folk whom you want to be following anyway.

If a raid leader told me, "It's Beam Or Bust!" then I would tell them, "Bye, Felicia!"

I really struggle with this kind of thinking. If someone takes time to make a trial group, a thing that takes work and effort, and they decide the group will work a certain way and is aimed at players with a certain mindset.... how exactly is the raid lead toxic, narrow-minded or uncreative if they don't allow someone to bring whatever build they feel like?

You, or any non-raid lead player trying to join a group, are relying on someone else doing the work of making, managing and leading that group so that you don't have to. Deciding they are narrow-minded unless they change their vision to accommodate something outside what the group is for seems extremely selfish to me.

I say this as someone who won't play beam.

It's a 100% a game issue.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 26

TBH when most players ask what is meta / what should they be using you kind of have to look at the content they are taking part in.

In general the best setup will always be the one which is easiest to play and still does acceptable dps because this is the type of build which is best for non-optimal group finder trials. ofc the more dps generally the better because it makes the fights shorter but a lot of the very challenging fights in group finder aren't dps checks at all and just rely on players doing some mechanic and ressing those who don't know what to do for 30% of the fight.

If you are taking part in fully group comp orientated PVE trying to do HM Trifecta then the builds which a lot of players are using for group finder stuff is likely less optimal for you compared to min maxing group buffs etc.

I'm suprised ZOS hasn't made some mythic which removes all skills and turns your ulti into a constant use ultimate which you can press any time and does a fixed dmg output (think WoW 1 button system) 90% of the playerbase would benefit from this.

Coopersnow · August 26

I mean there is not 1 build that smokes everything like people are saying in this thread just crazy talk.

Its litearlly one of the most diverse times to play the game. If you want easy gameplay but worse dps you can go beam focused build with arc.

As for the best build there is not a single best build in every trial and every fight. Even a bad subclass like winters embrace is super playable. herald/assasination/ardent is the most popular probally but its not optimal in every spot. In kynes aegis for example you can run assasination/ardent and any other dps subclass and do very very similair dps. And in some trials you dont even run ardent.

Also different support roles take the less "good" subclasses. You need to have people on deadric summoning for example same with gravelord. Stormcalling can be crazy in trails where you can utilize streak. So i have no idea where all these comments are comming from outside of just uninformed opinions.

bobdrad · September 1

The point is that group leads in end-game content need a balanced group comp. And in order to build the group comp, they are going to ask for particular builds, from the set of meta and support-meta dps builds. So you need to have that to be included, and for the group to succeed. A raid lead's job is already hard. Don't make it harder by insisting on bespoke builds in end-game trials.

Onomog · September 1

Player populations in most, if not all, games have a habit of optimizing the fun out of games and distilling the play down to what's most efficient/effective.