What Should Cyrodiil Look Like After Vengeance? (Poll + Open Discussion)

React · July 4

Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.

Markytous wrote: »

V
I understand that there are many claiming that they have lagged more than Grey Host in Vengeance Cyrodiil. This is proven to be isolated to their systems only, as the data regarding latency and ping / server performance has clearly evidenced that the server is tolerating fights with 300+ participants.

Ah yes, the server lag is definitely on the user's end and not the server itself. The dozens of people in zone chat complaining about the exact same server lag issues we've had for years just need better computers/internet. Those for vengeance who are here on the forums sharing their experiences with how this time around the test is drastically less performative must just be lying as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

Markytous · July 4

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

React wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

V
I understand that there are many claiming that they have lagged more than Grey Host in Vengeance Cyrodiil. This is proven to be isolated to their systems only, as the data regarding latency and ping / server performance has clearly evidenced that the server is tolerating fights with 300+ participants.

Ah yes, the server lag is definitely on the user's end and not the server itself. The dozens of people in zone chat complaining about the exact same server lag issues we've had for years just need better computers/internet. Those for vengeance who are here on the forums sharing their experiences with how this time around the test is drastically less performative must just be lying as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

Against the word of the majority of participants? It obviously is either lies or isolated to their systems/ISPs. For all of your dozens of complainers in zone, there were more players enjoying the game because if you were there and not dead on the floor in Vengeance you'd have seen 300-400 players on-screen fighting in one spot.

Yes.

EDIT: I played Vengeance this week for hours daily and did not experience a single latency drop, such as like your linked video conveyed, during high traffic keep sieges. Check your ISP or your background processes. There is no reason why you should be lagging with like 5 people on screen like your video shows. Even GH doesn't start lagging until roughly 10-20 players appear so the conflation of Vengeance calculations to server latency doesn't compute. Obviously not a cause of Vengeance calculations. Get that troubleshot with your ISP and background processes.

React · July 4

Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.

Markytous wrote: »

React wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

V
I understand that there are many claiming that they have lagged more than Grey Host in Vengeance Cyrodiil. This is proven to be isolated to their systems only, as the data regarding latency and ping / server performance has clearly evidenced that the server is tolerating fights with 300+ participants.

Ah yes, the server lag is definitely on the user's end and not the server itself. The dozens of people in zone chat complaining about the exact same server lag issues we've had for years just need better computers/internet. Those for vengeance who are here on the forums sharing their experiences with how this time around the test is drastically less performative must just be lying as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

Against the word of the majority of participants? It obviously is either lies or isolated to their systems/ISPs. For all of your dozens of complainers in zone, there were more players enjoying the game because if you were there and not dead on the floor in Vengeance you'd have seen 300-400 players on-screen fighting in one spot.

Yes.

Interesting. So that means the performance issues of the past 8 years don't exist, right? They've actually been on the player's end this entire time and its just our internet.

Because if you watch that video, that looks IDENTICAL to the prime time server lag in the main campaign that has existed for the better part of this game's life span, which can be witnessed through various people's perspectives if you go and look for some examples. Here is an example of mine from the start of the current patch. Notice how the delay looks exactly the same as the vengeance video linked above?

https://streamable.com/pp8o1l

Or perhaps this example from December of 2024.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s6zUdkv9A8

Or maybe this example from July of 2024?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50wb-6nyzu4

But you can go ahead and keep gaslighting people if you'd like.

Markytous · July 4

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

React wrote: »

But you can go ahead and keep gaslighting people if you'd like.

Gaslighting like 8 people who are scared they won't be able to abuse overtuned skill lines, sets and ballgrouping? The narrative is obvious. The people who complained of this invisible performance loss during Vengeance were the usual subjects who advocated for ballgroup facilitating changes, bombing and RoA/Rallying Cry zero diversity top tier set abuse. The 8v8 BGs that have been made for this group are still available. Vengeance, last time and this time, is clearly working for MOST people and so an isolated solution will be needed for the isolated complainers. It's truly that simple.

The complainers and lag advocates who hail from Grey Host are the minority here. I am also fighting for Grey Host's right to exist. I don't understand the anti-Vengeance rhetoric being spammed on here by the same 5 names. Grey Host and Vengeance Cyrodiil need to both be available. It's not like Grey Host is losing much with Vengeance being available beside it anyways. You can't trick players into jumping into laggy, proccy Grey Host and have them stay regardless.

We have the stats from last test proving that Vengeance is more performant and this test is more of the same. It has been spectacular. So folks have to make sure that, if they're experiencing strange packet loss, its not from a local ISP related issue. One minute of packet loss instances is an incredible cherrypick and worse yet it has slo-mo spots for dramatic effect.

Cooperharley · July 5

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

Just to add, and I can speak for many of my friends that still play the game, vengeance is an absolute blast and is something I'd regularly return to where the current cyrodiil is something I don't touch with a 10 foot pole. I love PvP games. I love PvP in MMOs like WoW.

There's still skill expression in vengeance. What there's not is ridiculous 1 shot builds, immortal builds, etc. Big fan.

The other thing to note is the barrier to entry for newer players is EXTREMELY low in vengeance and you NEED that if you want people to come and play the game. When you go into cyrodiil and can't do a lick of damage on someone, it's not fun. I also think, selfishly, this would help with the balancing for PvE vs. PvP thing a TON. The fact is, a vast, vast, vast majority of people main PvE over PvP content in this game and when we see any combat balancing for a pvp issue that hits pve, it affects more people plain and simple. It sucks both ways and it's something due to the devs' decision early on to not separate the two, but this helps a LOT with that

React · July 5

Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.

Markytous wrote: »

React wrote: »

But you can go ahead and keep gaslighting people if you'd like.

Gaslighting like 8 people who are scared they won't be able to abuse overtuned skill lines, sets and ballgrouping? The narrative is obvious. The people who complained of this invisible performance loss during Vengeance were the usual subjects who advocated for ballgroup facilitating changes, bombing and RoA/Rallying Cry zero diversity top tier set abuse. The 8v8 BGs that have been made for this group are still available. Vengeance, last time and this time, is clearly working for MOST people and so an isolated solution will be needed for the isolated complainers. It's truly that simple.

Why immediately deflect performance concerns into "people who are scared they won't be able to abuse overtuned skill lines, sets, and ballgrouping"? I am complaining about the performance in this test, and I just provided you with irrefutable proof that the current server issues in vengeance are identical to the server issues prime time GH has been having for years.

Markytous wrote: »

You can't trick players into jumping into laggy, proccy Grey Host and have them stay regardless.

Based on the examples I just provided you, if you believe that GH is laggy then you must also acknowledge that this new version of vengeance is having those same issues. It might take quite a lot more players for the issues to become prevalent in the vengeance environment, but they are there.

Markytous wrote: »

We have the stats from last test proving that Vengeance is more performant and this test is more of the same. It has been spectacular. So folks have to make sure that, if they're experiencing strange packet loss, its not from a local ISP related issue. One minute of packet loss instances is an incredible cherrypick and worse yet it has slo-mo spots for dramatic effect.

But this test isn't more of the same. I also played during the first test - I had zero issues with performance during that test whatsoever. Even amidst huge keep battles within more people on screen than I've seen in years, the first test had zero issues other than FPS loss which is to be expected.

The addition of the 8 skill lines and the cross healing that came with them has obviously tipped the environment past the point where it can handle the huge battles during prime time at max population. There is a reason why the video examples of the recent vengeance issues and the long-time GH issues look identical - it's the "server throttling" that was discussed by wheeler during the cyrodiil champions Q&A. It is what happens when the server is overwhelmed by calculations and has to then limit them artificially so that they fit within each "server frame", as he put it.

But if you don't believe me, perhaps you should check with @Stamicka , who is a huge proponent for the vengeance environment.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vengeance is the only reason I log in. Once it goes away, I will too. I’m having a great time and much prefer Vengeance over the current state of Cyrodiil.

I think a lot of ESO’s playerbase likes to outbuild others and have an advantage over them. I always hated that though, so this is perfect for me. I’m not surprised that it’s so polarizing though.

Here are his recent experiences with the current vengeance environment.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679963

Stamicka wrote: »

The performance in Vengeance this time is pretty bad. I freeze, crash, have inputs dropped, and have delayed skills pretty frequently. I can’t really play during prime time.

I had a good time the first day, but at this point the excessive healing is making PvP feel like a slog. Burst needs to be higher in this campaign.

Markytous · July 5

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

React wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

React wrote: »

But you can go ahead and keep gaslighting people if you'd like.

Gaslighting like 8 people who are scared they won't be able to abuse overtuned skill lines, sets and ballgrouping? The narrative is obvious. The people who complained of this invisible performance loss during Vengeance were the usual subjects who advocated for ballgroup facilitating changes, bombing and RoA/Rallying Cry zero diversity top tier set abuse. The 8v8 BGs that have been made for this group are still available. Vengeance, last time and this time, is clearly working for MOST people and so an isolated solution will be needed for the isolated complainers. It's truly that simple.

Why immediately deflect performance concerns into "people who are scared they won't be able to abuse overtuned skill lines, sets, and ballgrouping"? I am complaining about the performance in this test, and I just provided you with irrefutable proof that the current server issues in vengeance are identical to the server issues prime time GH has been having for years.

Markytous wrote: »

You can't trick players into jumping into laggy, proccy Grey Host and have them stay regardless.

Based on the examples I just provided you, if you believe that GH is laggy then you must also acknowledge that this new version of vengeance is having those same issues. It might take quite a lot more players for the issues to become prevalent in the vengeance environment, but they are there.

Markytous wrote: »

We have the stats from last test proving that Vengeance is more performant and this test is more of the same. It has been spectacular. So folks have to make sure that, if they're experiencing strange packet loss, its not from a local ISP related issue. One minute of packet loss instances is an incredible cherrypick and worse yet it has slo-mo spots for dramatic effect.

But this test isn't more of the same. I also played during the first test - I had zero issues with performance during that test whatsoever. Even amidst huge keep battles within more people on screen than I've seen in years, the first test had zero issues other than FPS loss which is to be expected.

The addition of the 8 skill lines and the cross healing that came with them has obviously tipped the environment past the point where it can handle the huge battles during prime time at max population. There is a reason why the video examples of the recent vengeance issues and the long-time GH issues look identical - it's the "server throttling" that was discussed by wheeler during the cyrodiil champions Q&A. It is what happens when the server is overwhelmed by calculations and has to then limit them artificially so that they fit within each "server frame", as he put it.

But if you don't believe me, perhaps you should check with @Stamicka , who is a huge proponent for the vengeance environment.

Stamicka wrote: »

Vengeance is the only reason I log in. Once it goes away, I will too. I’m having a great time and much prefer Vengeance over the current state of Cyrodiil.

I think a lot of ESO’s playerbase likes to outbuild others and have an advantage over them. I always hated that though, so this is perfect for me. I’m not surprised that it’s so polarizing though.

Here is his recent experience with the current vengeance environment.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679963

Stamicka wrote: »

The performance in Vengeance this time is pretty bad. I freeze, crash, have inputs dropped, and have delayed skills pretty frequently. I can’t really play during prime time.

I had a good time the first day, but at this point the excessive healing is making PvP feel like a slog. Burst needs to be higher in this campaign.

I still appreciate that Cyrodiil doesn’t feel dead. I also like that I don’t have to level any skills, farm sets, or jump through hoops to get into PvP and play. The lack of free damage and overtuned sets is nice too, but unfortunately the lag and the healing ruin the fun quite a bit.

I still think that Vengeance issues are easier to fix than live Cyrodiil’s issues which is basically a lost cause. However, if just adding weapon skill lines was enough to cause lag like this, I’m not quite sure how feasible the fixes are as they would introduce a bit more complexity (which is really needed tbh).

The experiences between GH and Vengeance are not the same. I don't have to acknowledge anything of the sort. GH server cap is 300~ while Vengeance up to 900. Side-by-side comparison in a fight? Lag starts around 30 folks (worse with a Ballgroup) in GH while 200+ players on-screen in Vengeance happens without a sweat (no ballgroups possible big plus). This anti-vengeance campaign which is thinly veiled pro-stale meta and ballgrouping is very thin and it would serve better to avoid lying when making advocacy towards GH support. Again, there is no reason why GH and Vengeance cannot coexist. Your only response to that is that you don't want players going to Vengeance instead of GH. People won't play GH if they don't like laggy, annoying PVP. That is already happening. Long post or short, you have to face the facts of the server latency and player population numbers. All of these are backed with evidence documented by both players and ZOS. You don't have to take my word for it. There is a very active shill campaign against Vengeance and to stand in the way of low latency PVP is to engage in mad levels of cognitive dissonance just to protect ballgroups, procs and blocktanks.

EDIT: If what we're discussing here is a dip in performance between the last test and this one, that's acceptable. Restoration Staff could be a culprit however I don't want to get into the in-game meta implications of such things during a network test. It seems like a cop-out because of the whole "crosshealing" debate (which is indeed an issue) and only in the most server-latency side of the topic is relevant. If Resto Staff is causing performance to dip, I didn't notice it in the many hours that I've played this week.

Stamicka · July 5

Markytous wrote: »

React wrote: »

But you can go ahead and keep gaslighting people if you'd like.

Gaslighting like 8 people who are scared they won't be able to abuse overtuned skill lines, sets and ballgrouping? The narrative is obvious. The people who complained of this invisible performance loss during Vengeance were the usual subjects who advocated for ballgroup facilitating changes, bombing and RoA/Rallying Cry zero diversity top tier set abuse. The 8v8 BGs that have been made for this group are still available. Vengeance, last time and this time, is clearly working for MOST people and so an isolated solution will be needed for the isolated complainers. It's truly that simple.

It's not quite this simple. A lot of the people who dislike Vengeance would be right there with you in wanting to fix the overtuned and broken stuff with the game. Personally speaking, I hate the current state of non Vengeance Cyrodiil, but I also hate really high time to kill and low skill ceilings. Vengeance is a pretty low skill environment and right now with the state of healing in that campaign, the time to kill is pretty high.

I was willing to defend Vengeance just because I hate what live Cyrodiil and PvP as a whole has become. Vengeance has some very serious downsides too though. I still like Vengeance for the accessibility (low bar to enter), I like that you actually have to intentionally deal damage, and there's more action on the map. However, the people who dislike it are very justified in their opinion for the state of healing alone.

I used to cite performance as a benefit of Vengeance, but honestly I've been just as frustrated with skills not firing in Vengeance lately.

React wrote: »

But if you don't believe me, perhaps you should check with @Stamicka , who is a huge proponent for the vengeance environment.

Yea I cannot defend this Vengeance test anymore. I want accessible PvP to boost participation, I also want less of a power difference from gear sets. I'm just as against low skill ceilings as I am anything else though. The fact that healing in Vengeance is as easy as it is is unacceptable.

Cellithor · July 5

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

Here's how Cyrodiil went before:

I take the time to put together a solid PvP build and I have a decent skill level. The build works and my skills carry me most of the time playing against the average player. It's a nice time. Until the sweats log in. Those sweats, the one with cheesey unkillable tank builds. Getting pulled in by rush of agony, CC'd, and bursted down in 0.3 seconds. Gimmicky sniper and bomb builds. I'm not having fun at all.

I start to question my build. All the gear I farmed, then reconstructed, then golded out -- all of that investment on my part starts to feel trivialized because it won't do any damage to some of these people or keep me alive longer than 3 seconds when these people are in Cyrodiil.

Others in my group decide the fun's over. They leave and there aren't really a lot of other people out there to group with.

Cyrodiil During Vengeance:

I get in and get going quickly because the only barrier for entry is configuring my skills. No need to worry about farming or buying a specific set just to make myself remotely viable in the Cyrodiil environment - pay attention to this point, because it is very important. So many people do not participate in PvP due how overly competitive and cheesey the build aspect is, even without factoring in the skill of the player.

The war feels alive and exciting because of the sheer amount of people fighting. It was truly chaotic and felt like a real war. There is no shortage of groups to fall in with. I prefer this over normal Cyrodiil any day.

I don't necessarily need to question my build because I know we're all on a level playing field. I might need to tweak a few of my skill choices, but that's a far cry from having to spend days running a dungeon or farming AP for new gear.

I had A LOT more fun with this!

My verdict:

It is clear that both the barrier for entry and skill gap to enjoy Cyrodiil (and PvP in general) are far too overwhelming for the average player. When someone comes into PvP and can't kill anyone and experiences near instant deaths, has to go back to the drawing board over and over again just to come up with something competitive - that's going to make most people decide it's not worth the trouble. Because it really isn't.

Then god forbid the next update changes up the meta, that's going to send a lot of people back to the drawing board as well.

So is vengeance exactly as it is the right answer? No, maybe not, but a more limited skill pool and gear pool would be a great thing for PvP in this game. Anything that feels more welcoming to more players AND can support a larger number players is fantastic.

ArchMikem · July 5

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

ForumBully wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Im on Console and just tried Vengeance last night. I anticipated itd be fun. It was miserable.

My Main has always been a Stamina Nightblade built to be a PvE Crit Kitty glass cannon that also somewhat worked in PvP. I got my first General Star on her. Last night I found my build to have been butchered. No Channeled Acceleration, ALL of my Critical Dmg wiped to zero. I had to fill in skill slots with random abilities and my character hit like a wet noodle.

I do not like this.

Just curious, what exactly did you expect this campaign was? Unchanged but somehow better performing?

I didn't expect the changes to abilities and stat boosts to be so drastic.

As much as I appreciate the effort to revamp PvP, they really aren't doing a great job with communication. There's really no reason anyone should have to go to a third party to get a list of changes and players don't seem to have any idea what's happening in the test, let alone what the roadmap looks like for the next few ...however many there may be, we don't know that either.
This is an area where ZOS falls down again and again. Just communicate.

So this is how it feels to be on the other side of that fence.

Almost every update I end up playing devil's advocate over something the majority forum complains about. Now near everyone here is enjoying the Vengeance tests while I'm not.

I wasn't completely ignorant either, I knew the new campaign was a dumbed down simplified combat set to close the power gap. I just didn't expect my personal build to have been so degraded since im not a META I Win button player. All I am is Critical damage and Vengeance takes that away, so, that leaves me with completely retooling and relearning my Characters.

Or I could just never PvP again if the Tests are pushed thru. I got my Star, theres no more drive anymore.

Turtle_Bot · July 5

CatoUnchained wrote: »

The problem is performance during this version of vengeance performance isn't any better and often worse than live was/is. I didn't like the first vengeance "test", but this second round of vengeance is a complete fail. Just adding weapons and alliance skills was enough to bottom out the performance. So may as well stick with the PvP system we already have.

You know ZOS has never even tried limiting heal and shield stacking. Nor have they tried making adjustments to their most calculation heavy sets. They haven't even tried to fix the current live PvP mode and instead went on this failed vengeance tangent.

The only performance issues (where it was more than just FPS drops) I've noticed, were when there was heavy (and I mean HEAVY!) use of Resto staff and spamming multiple heals and HoTs by large groups. Others have mentioned external factors (including a linked explanation from Kevin saying as much), but even outside of those I haven't really noticed much degradation in performance outside what I described above with the resto line.

The resto line has always been problematic for server performance, same with heal (and shield/buff) stacking in general, but the resto line in particular seems like there's some real spaghetti code within that skill line that is causing some big issues for server performance, even with the simplified skills.

I would actually be curious if ZOS did another test where they kept the other weapon skill lines, but removed the resto line to see if that makes a difference (i.e. is it resto specifically or healing/HoTs/heal-stacking in general). It's frustrating to think about because the resto skills have been a big part of bringing my sorc from vengeance 1 into something closer to live (in terms of playstyle) in vengeance 2, and removing that would basically remove healing from my sorc (unless sorc class heals were adjusted), but if the resto line specifically is causing issues needs to be tested.

As for trying to fix the live version, ZOS did try years ago with removing cross healing, limited group sizes, removing procs, etc. those tests ultimately all failed to fix the issues (as we see on current live laghost). So these vengeance tests are basically ZOS saying, "enough with the needle in a haystack method they have been doing, let's just remove everything and add things back in until we find the cause(s)".

Quite likely heal stacking (well stacking in general) is causing many of the issues, but even then there are likely even more basic level things such as resto staff spaghetti code that would still cause issues after over a decade of spaghetti code being added by multiple different coders, where even without stacking mechanics would still cause issues that would still need to be found and addressed to truly bring as much performance back into Cyro as possible.

LadyGP · July 5

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

Markytous wrote: »

React wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

V
I understand that there are many claiming that they have lagged more than Grey Host in Vengeance Cyrodiil. This is proven to be isolated to their systems only, as the data regarding latency and ping / server performance has clearly evidenced that the server is tolerating fights with 300+ participants.

Ah yes, the server lag is definitely on the user's end and not the server itself. The dozens of people in zone chat complaining about the exact same server lag issues we've had for years just need better computers/internet. Those for vengeance who are here on the forums sharing their experiences with how this time around the test is drastically less performative must just be lying as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

Against the word of the majority of participants? It obviously is either lies or isolated to their systems/ISPs. For all of your dozens of complainers in zone, there were more players enjoying the game because if you were there and not dead on the floor in Vengeance you'd have seen 300-400 players on-screen fighting in one spot.

Yes.

EDIT: I played Vengeance this week for hours daily and did not experience a single latency drop, such as like your linked video conveyed, during high traffic keep sieges. Check your ISP or your background processes. There is no reason why you should be lagging with like 5 people on screen like your video shows. Even GH doesn't start lagging until roughly 10-20 players appear so the conflation of Vengeance calculations to server latency doesn't compute. Obviously not a cause of Vengeance calculations. Get that troubleshot with your ISP and background processes.

There 100% was lag for a solid hour or so while the arrius fight was going on. The entire server was talking about it (I have friends that left DC many years ago that I still talk to on occasion and asked them if they were getting lag too)

So @React is right here... just because you didn't get lag at the times you played doesn't mean it didnt happen.