The Official Vengeance Test Campaign Feedback Thread (Test 2)

LordGavus

I hadn't played much alliance war for ages to due poor performance and troll build shenanigans.
I played a few hours of this last night and it was excellent.
Got into a bunch of large scale fights and sieges and performance was great. The balancing of skills made the fights enjoyable.
Was able to jump right in with a group of friends including returning players and a brand new player (only playing a few weeks) and actually be useful/competitive in skirmishes and seiges.

It was the most fun I've had in alliance war and I hope it sticks around.

Chamillex

So. What will happen given seal of zenithar ends same day? Ie we will not be able to use the event perk of cheaper items in cyro?

diamondo

I agree with how vengeance makes PVP fun. It’s balanced, since subclassing there has been a decided imbalance in PVP once vengeance ends can I ask what the plans are for players who do not want to subclass and I’m talking about in PvP specific here? I’ve asked on other threads but so far no response.

Anomander72

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
Do you have any general feedback?

I am trying to take a glass half full approach. However, after the proc set tests back in 2021 all we got as a result was a no-proc Ravenwatch. So color me skeptical about the actual intent behind the Vengeance tests. Is it another attempt to mollify the PVP community, and then go another 5 years before mentioning PVP, or is their a genuine desire to improve the performance? I know that might sound harsh, but put yourself in a long time PVP'ers shoes and you can understand the suspicion.

RedJohn_COF

Here is my feedback about Vengeance on Xbox NA and Xbox EU.

Xbox EU

Performance has not been any better than usually on the server. There are still LOADING SCREENS just when running around Cyrodiil. Today at 21:42 CEST I just got a loading screen just running around. Nobody was in a fight. People also have problems bar swapping.

Population has been pretty much non existent. Nobody on this server likes to play vengeance. Most people complain about how "slow" everything is. I think the maximum we got was 3 bars each on the first / 2nd day.

Xbox NA
Performance has been better than on EU (even though I come from Germany). I was able to get into some large fights especially on the first day where we had 3 bars and most of the others also 2-3 bars.

Population On the next days a lot of people also stopped playing here. The times I was there, we did get at least 1 bar each, which is way more we've usually gotten on Xbox EU though.

So my conclusion is: There is still something wrong with the Xbox EU server. We have been saying that after the last midyear mayham, the performance was reduced a lot and this is still the case even with vengeance which is really not good to see. I don't understand how this is even possible.

Theignson

React wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ichibe wrote: »

Everyone that likes this campaign is over 40, disabled, or lost everyone and everything they love in their actual life.

Only if they play Nightblade /s

The reflex requirements are the same in either format. Sweaty competition is still dependent on animation cancelling. Only the pre-fight math puzzle has changed, and it's in favor of button pressers, not spreadsheet authors.

The common thread I've noticed amongst anti-Vengeance players is that they're all fine with unexplained random instant death, and don't realize or care that this is an instant quit for the majority of gamers across demographics.

A lot of the anti-Vengeance players are just salty they can no longer cheese instant kill combos (or the proc sets that enable instant kills), having no idea how to actually fight someone without their cheese.

This isn't even remotely true.

The TTK in this iteration of vengeance is absurdly high, and essentially anyone that knows how to defend themselves cannot be killed by one person, without being fully run out of resources first which will only occur after an extended period of very poor gameplay and decisions.

The skill ceiling in vengeance is far lower than that of normal pvp, as is the APM. There isn't enough room for skill expression with how limited your personal capabilities are in regards to burst damage, maintaining pressure, etc. You essentially have two options for offense; do a static dot rotation until your opponent runs out of resources and dies, or play a direct damage oriented setup that lacks the damage or pressure to kill anyone relatively decent at the game. You cant even afford to maintain high apm throughout this because the resources don't allow it; NB is genuinely the only class that can do it because of the ability to go to your backbar and hit siphoning in between offensive casts.

You say "people will say they're fine with 100-0 combos" but I dont think you realize that this is a positive thing. The game at its peak allowed for this exact kind of burst damage - massive blockable/dodgeable combos that punished you for not played correctly. This has been brought back with subclassing in some regards, and while there are certainly outliers like some proc sets, double spec bow, crescent + BL, restoring light being too good, etc this is the most enjoyable the game has been in a long time.

The vast majority of support for vengeance comes from people who dont pvp at all. They are happy the skill ceiling has been lowered so dramatically that they're now able to guarantee the death of a much higher skill player by simply spamming a stun/root on them, or that they're able to effortlessly survive a much high skill player by rotating one or two heals. Catering to this sort of individual is a massive slap in the face to people who have dedicated their time to mastering pvp mechanics over the past decade. Artificially deleting the skill gap in this manner will undoubtedly drive the most dedicated PVP players away who otherwise would have stuck with ESO indefinitely.

The only positive thing I see about this test is the inability for ball groups to exist. That isn't enough to justify how far the PVP experience has been degraded.

It seems to me this assessment is too pessimistic.

For one thing, AvA ( a major aspect of PvP) is 1000x better in Vengeance. Partly this is because there are no unkillable ball groups that can just come into a keep and never go out. Partly it is because there are so many more players. The huge battles for keeps are great fun and highly unpredictable (unless one side completely outnumbers the other-- but this is true in live Cyrodil as weel).

Also, the nature of battle is completely changed. You don't have to fear large scale battles in an open field, because there are no ball groups with completely OP proc sets pulling and killing you. This means an individual can fight much more freely. I have found (playing my NB) that I can get many good fights in this setting, but also being careful not to over commit.
The NB with soul shred --Bow-- assasins blade can easily get 45k damage in a burst which in open field warfare is quite good enough.

The point of Vengeance is the sets wont do anything for you, nor CP. You have to actually make choices. If you want to get major resolve, you have to use an ability-- same with other buffs. All damage is from abilities. If you want expedition you need to cast it. I think this is how PvP should be. The limited cross healing is great and so is the limited AoEs.

You can still have groups and they give you a small but definite advantage over solos. But i notice many former ball group members who, without the enormous power of group healing, shields, procs are actually quite engageable. Maybe some of them weren't playing back before groups became god-like and so are not used to hand to hand fighting.

React is it really the case that in this setting all your skills are useless? I was still having a very high KB:D ratio as a solo player and I am nowhere near as skilled as you.

lemlest

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, lots. Quite stable, only a bit laggy when lots of skills and siege were shooting off at once.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
I still have the issue of some skills not firing off at all, overall feels a lot like the normal Grey Host campaign.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
I am not a fan personally. I see people asking to make Vengeance the new standard for PvP and my opinion is PLEASE DON'T! These skills are fine for testing, and for letting newer players come try out PvP (I've seen a lot of low level/low alliance rank characters running about Cyrodiil in this test) but I miss my build and I am not the only one. Simplifying skills completely shakes up builds, which has already just happened with subclassing. With the current simplified abilities (and the test campaign in general), you haven't really got to know your skills or think about what you are doing, you have to just get into a group and run. This is not fun long-term, when the awe of how many people are in Cyrodiil wears off. Please do not make these simplified skills become the norm for PvP.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.
Not yet.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
Pretty much mentioned above, but overall fun and good to see devs wanting to fix Cyrodiil but please do not make this the standard for PvP. Simplified skills and builds will actually kill off the PvP scene.

Do you have any general feedback?
So happy to see the stuck in combat bug fixed, that was infuriating. It's also really nice to see a lot of new players in Cyrodiil, and I really hope they stay! In one of my PvP guilds we have had 20 new members so far.

Darethran

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yep! They were constant, all over the map there were multiple fights going on. There was never a dull moment.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
They absolutely did. Performance when there were many players on screen also didn't drop that low. No lag, no timeskips, and no loading screens when keeps changed owners.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
The idea behind them is great, and honestly requires you to play better. We can't rely on fancy procs or optimised niche builds. Of course, there are many more abilities in the game but having a PvP specific only version without morphs works great.

Also, not having to min-max skills or gear is amazing. This idea should be kept going forward, as it greatly reduces the barrier to entry. Which is what PvP communities thrive on since the only barrier becomes your own playstyle, rather than higher damage formula stats.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.
Nope.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
The higher caps must be kept in future versions. We finally have an actual war going on! This is what it should have been for years!

Do you have any general feedback
Healing abilities are extremely limited, with everyone having larger health pools and without buffs from armour. A good compromise would be a larger range, as dedicated support builds are now too fragile to act. That would be fine if our heals were stronger, but since they are weaker, longer range makes healing less of a gimmick without becoming OP from higher healing numbers.

It would be great to buy PvP only gear (outside Cyrodiil, the effects are inactive) so we can diversify the builds a bit. But no fancy effects with procs, just standard +stat or +healing. Make the cost super low, like 500AP per piece.

React

Theignson wrote: »

It seems to me this assessment is too pessimistic.

For one thing, AvA ( a major aspect of PvP) is 1000x better in Vengeance. Partly this is because there are no unkillable ball groups that can just come into a keep and never go out. Partly it is because there are so many more players. The huge battles for keeps are great fun and highly unpredictable (unless one side completely outnumbers the other-- but this is true in live Cyrodil as weel).

Sure, it is definitely nice that ball groups can't exist in this environment and that at the moment there are more players. But every single server is reporting the population decreasing with each day, a trend which will continue until the end of the test because zenimax used golden pursuits and double AP to get the casual crowd to participate. Without those incentives, it is very likely you would see a fraction of the current numbers on average.

Theignson wrote: »

Also, the nature of battle is completely changed. You don't have to fear large scale battles in an open field, because there are no ball groups with completely OP proc sets pulling and killing you. This means an individual can fight much more freely. I have found (playing my NB) that I can get many good fights in this setting, but also being careful not to over commit.
The NB with soul shred --Bow-- assasins blade can easily get 45k damage in a burst which in open field warfare is quite good enough.

You're describing a burst that takes place over three GCDS. That may be fine for a PVE roleplayer who doesn't know how to heal themselves coming into vengeance to get their golden pursuit done, but anyone with even an inkling of PVP knowledge is going to effortlessly defend themselves from that amount of damage spread across that many GCDs. The current iteration of vengeance heavily favors healing over damage.

Theignson wrote: »

The point of Vengeance is the sets wont do anything for you, nor CP. You have to actually make choices. If you want to get major resolve, you have to use an ability-- same with other buffs. All damage is from abilities. If you want expedition you need to cast it. I think this is how PvP should be. The limited cross healing is great and so is the limited AoEs.

I agree that your damage and healing should be sourced from your abilities, not sets. But I do not agree that the way that vengeance is set up gives you "more choices" than the current live environment. You're also suggesting that the limited cross healing is great - but even as limited as it is, it drastically outperforms the damage available in this newest version of vengeance.

I don't know a single person that would agree that the limited AOE damage is a good thing, as you've stated here. We had AOE caps 8 years ago - the playerbase AND zenimax nearly unanimously felt they were bad for the game, so they were removed. They turn large scale PVP into the most unenticing zerg fest that can exist. There is zero potential for outnumbered play of any significance when your opponents can be quite literally invincible by stacking more than 3 people in a tight radius.

Theignson wrote: »

React is it really the case that in this setting all your skills are useless? I was still having a very high KB:D ratio as a solo player and I am nowhere near as skilled as you.

The environment drastically lowers the skill ceiling. The amount of cross healing available renders you unable to kill players that have even a slight idea how to defend themselves, which becomes amplified dramatically when they begin to outnumber you. They don't sacrifice anything for this survivability either - the environment is so standardized they simply posses healing values greater than your damage values at all times. Further, you have no way to increase your own damage in any meaningful way by making sacrifices of your own. Perhaps I don't need all the extra off resource regen I have, or maybe I don't need so much off resource max stat or health - but I have no way of converting that into damage to give me the burst I'd need to overcome the standardized healing values. The limitations of the environment are just too drastic and remove the tools required for high skill expression, especially in outnumbered fights.

The live environment is certainly not perfect. There are overperforming sets, disgusting amounts of cross healing, health values beyond reason, etc. But it's the first patch in a very long time where you can actually achieve the damage required to kill most players, and the majority of friends I have playing right now are happy about that. To go from that environment to this vengeance one where the survivability has once again swung so far in the opposite direction is jarring, to say the least. It isn't something that I think most veterans will enjoy for long, and I wouldn't count on the PVE roleplayers who are being incentivized to play keeping it populated long term.

Nydarisa

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles? Yes

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)? I played primarily solo this time around and found minimal rubber banding, but did have periods of skills delay and (again) issues with being able to open doors during combat situations. Incredible frustrating to survive the zerg push and run to your keep door to get inside, only to have the game fail to recognize your interaction with the door.

What you think of the simplified abilities? I dont mind simplified abilities; however, I believe the target caps are too low for AoE abilities. If I cast a healing springs, in a group of players, having it only 3 players is pretty silly. Same with damage abilities. If it is an area that is affected, they anyone in the area should be affected.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? No,

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test? I am very happy the tests are happening, but it is a very tiresome gameplay experience. It is even more frustrating when you have a large population disparity between the factions because the only true determining faction is the number of bodies. With the insanely tanky pre-builds, counter siege does virtually nothing and in an even match, they attackers will always breach. Its simply predictable and boring.

Do you have any general feedback? I stand behind my original statement from test 1 that i think this could be an interesting option for those who like this type of play, but i vehemently oppose it being the *only* option. Let the players have the choice and the numbers will tell the story. Right now - many of the regular PvP players are participating to support the testing and development process, not because they find this to be enjoyable. And it is readily apparent that there are fewer overall participants than there were the first time - my personal guess is that the newness has already started to wear off.

Theignson

React I see your points. Note however that the AOE cap doesn't apply to siege. Oil eg can hit that tight mass of players and devastate them, and the radius of oils seems to be increased. This is why keep defense is much more tenacious than otherwise.

I hate VD/RoA so I am not a fan of mass AoE damage from sets like that. It is free damage. But it is true that its disappointing to see your ultimate only hit 3 people. Azureblight was one of the most successful forms of AoE mass damage but ZOS had no problem nerfing that.

In general I think some sort of merged version of PvP that allows the subclassing, allows more damage, but keeps the limitation on ball group power, reduces cross healing/cross shielding and removes the noxious sets would be much better than current live Cyrodil. Maybe you have some suggestion how to do that?

Also I looked at your stream and as usually you are 1vXing and what I saw was a 65:0 K:D just after 20 minutes or so. So I don't understand why you are saying your skill level is not relevant since you are outplaying all those players. You could argue that they are all potatoes, but, you are better than 99% of the players anyway, and those players don't do better than this in live cyrodil. It seemed to me you were using high skill level and succeeding.

IndigoDreams

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
yes and they were fantastic! all 3 alliances, probably 300 players in one keep.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?

i suffered FPS for sure but i did NOT lag out....that was amazing. only notice minor latency issues concerning response times. Certainly a lot of fun fights!

#What you think of the simplified abilities?

Classes have an identity in Vengance. Something that is gone otherwise at this point.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.

thankfully, i only got disconnected two or three times that i remember.

What happened to trigger the corruption (leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc)?

One time was a huge fight at a smaller outpost and another felt random because i was riding thru a quiet section of terrain.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

i am really enjoying how the fights feel The importance of staying with your team reflects real world siege tactics. Those who wander off become snipers dream and overwhelming force is a strong play.

Do you have any general feedback?

I am not really sure what to put here other than i dislike current battlegrounds and imperial city has me disheartened because of people yelling "excuse me, we are dueling" instead of, ya know, playing the zone?

I am not sold on the "content pass" thing being an improvement but i am still having fun with the game.

Edit because : I nearly forgot to add how amazing it is to NOT get stuck in combat constantly....
XD

ForumBully

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, many on Xbox NA

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
I experienced almost no latency regardless of battle size. Combat felt responsive but healing felt like it outpaced damage considerably. As a healer, I joined in a fight between 2 players on my faction and 1 player opposing. It quickly became clear that the solo opposing player was much better at focusing their damage and maintaining their character, but they were unable to kill my two faction mates while I healed them, even after my faction mates stopped bothering to self heal and relied on me healing them. When the opposing player focused damage on me, he was unable to overcome my healing. He quickly killed both of my faction mates when I stopped healing them.
My interpretation of this event was that the healer role is vital in this environment, but that healing is too powerful, or perhaps damage is not powerful enough. The opposing player demonstrated great control of their character and was able to win outnumbered without my intervention. If my faction mates had been slightly better with their own healing, this 2v1 would have been unwinnable because of the unbalanced healing.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
They were bland, and somewhat generic from class to class. I felt like the AoE cap hindered damage too much. Large scale fights are great, but small scale damage in large scale fights felt ineffective.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc?
No.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
It was refreshing. I haven't played ESO in a couple of years due to the problems with the live server and disliking the general direction of set-based PvP so Vengeance felt like a great improvement, performance wise, but not quite engaging combat wise...yet.

Do you have any general feedback?
I think the cadence of the additions to Vengeance is too slow to arrive at a "sweet spot" for Cyrodiil PvP in a reasonable timeframe. I also feel like the team isn't communicating effectly what the roadmap looks like for this testing or what the expected result will be. The player base has some definite ideas about problem areas on the live servers and it feels like that's being ignored...which is fine if the Developers would just share their own thoughts on what they think the end result of Vengeance testing will look like.

Darethran

Remember, what they're doing with Vengeance is cutting things down to be as barebones as possible, then slowly incrementing changes to see what caused the horrible performance. It seems quite a few debaters in the thread didn't notice this, but imo it's obvious when they said that Vengeance is for testing all this stuff.

Honestly I'm chuffed they're actually doing tests rather than just continuing to cut Cyrodiil down more and more like they have since I first started playing 9 years ago. No CP was good, no proc was good idea in theory but terrible execution. Vengeance is what no proc should have started out as.

Joy_Division

Theignson wrote: »

React I see your points. Note however that the AOE cap doesn't apply to siege. Oil eg can hit that tight mass of players and devastate them, and the radius of oils seems to be increased. This is why keep defense is much more tenacious than otherwise.

I hate VD/RoA so I am not a fan of mass AoE damage from sets like that. It is free damage. But it is true that its disappointing to see your ultimate only hit 3 people. Azureblight was one of the most successful forms of AoE mass damage but ZOS had no problem nerfing that.

In general I think some sort of merged version of PvP that allows the subclassing, allows more damage, but keeps the limitation on ball group power, reduces cross healing/cross shielding and removes the noxious sets would be much better than current live Cyrodil. Maybe you have some suggestion how to do that?

Also I looked at your stream and as usually you are 1vXing and what I saw was a 65:0 K:D just after 20 minutes or so. So I don't understand why you are saying your skill level is not relevant since you are outplaying all those players. You could argue that they are all potatoes, but, you are better than 99% of the players anyway, and those players don't do better than this in live cyrodil. It seemed to me you were using high skill level and succeeding.

While I agree with much of what you say, it is a mistake to repeat ZOS's previous philosophy that siege is the counter for zergs/organized groups. This was the message I received most often during Vengeance when the zerg came, "Siege limit reached." So what am I supposed to do in this situation? Stand around and do nothing with my useless abilities. Not fun. The other issue with just using siege as a counter is there are times when it can;t be used or is impractical to do so. The third floor nonsense on Greyhost is the most outstanding example of this as there are very few areas to put down siege and 90% of the outer ring serves as LOS. There is nothing wrong with player AoE abilities and ultimates being used for exactly what they were intentded. Siege should be used as a supplementary and synergistic tool to fight zergs/groups, not the solution.

Theignson

While I agree with much of what you say, it is a mistake to repeat ZOS's previous philosophy that siege is the counter for zergs/organized groups. This was the message I received most often during Vengeance when the zerg came, "Siege limit reached." So what am I supposed to do in this situation? Stand around and do nothing with my useless abilities. Not fun. The other issue with just using siege as a counter is there are times when it can;t be used or is impractical to do so. The third floor nonsense on Greyhost is the most outstanding example of this as there are very few areas to put down siege and 90% of the outer ring serves as LOS. There is nothing wrong with player AoE abilities and ultimates being used for exactly what they were intentded. Siege should be used as a supplementary and synergistic tool to fight zergs/groups, not the solution

It's true that the most common way I died was to run up to a mass of players and pop "Vengeance soul shred", only to remember that it only stuns 3 of them and the other 10 kill me in midair, lol.

On the other hand, in vengeance keep defense, it is much more feasible to push out (if you can convince ep to do so) and have a massive battle to push out the invaders, than it is in live-- for the same reason, they can't aoe all of you to death. This is how we won several huge keep battles. I personally enjoy keep battles and open field battles the most in Cyrodil. TTK is not so much an issue in those settings, I guess.

Joy, if it were up to you as the game designer, where would you go with PvP from this point?

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, I was able to get into large-scale battles.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
While performance might have been somewhat better than during non-Vengeance campaigns, I still experienced noticeable frame drops and ping issues that affected responsiveness.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
I think simplified abilities can be okay but they definitely need work. The AoE caps in particular are ridiculous—AoE damage is necessary to end fights and punish zerging; without it, fights become pure numbers games with no way to break stacked groups.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc.?
No.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
As a test to gather data and performance metrics, I think it’s great. But as a permanent feature it would be terrible. It feels slow-paced and has almost no skill expression for the endgame PvP community. Also, removing 90%+ of the game’s abilities prevents any meaningful theorycrafting or build diversity.

Do you have any general feedback?
Yes, but I’ll be posting another thread where I go into more detail about my concerns with Vengeance as a long-term solution. I think these should remain purely as data-gathering tests and nothing else.

Edit:
The forum post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680162/permanent-vengeance-will-mean-the-end-of-cyrodiil-pvp#latest

soelslaev

The schadenfreude I feel from those howling how much they hate Vengeance mode is the sweetest wine I have tasted in years. For that reason alone, I could love this new mode.

Two of the reasons (out of a dozen) why games like Marvel Rivals and Rocket League are popular is that new comers can learn the basics and start being fairly competitive after some initial experience, and the competitive advantage lies in controller skill, situational awareness, and team work, especially team work. Look at what ESO has been trying to do by incorporating different game genres into the bigger game. We have a card game, puzzle game, scavenger hunt (lore books). pirate memory game (treasure maps). ESO can replace watching movies and TV dramas with the solo quests. We also have rogue trader/Khajiit-has-wears game, competitive fashion, competitive house and garden parties, and so on. ZOS has essentially achieved what the Zuck was trying to do with Meta. But it does not have a game that is more sports-like with competitive fairness. Well, until Vengeance. Cyrodiil was about time-served equates to power (if you chose). It was inherently unfair. I don't know if Battleground, Imperial City or Cyrodiil should become full time Vengeance mode, but one of them should as far as adding another game inside the game aspect goes. But just the server performance might dictate which game gets Vengeanced. But there still needs to be an arena in which those who like to create builds that some dude on YouTube told them to build and have 3000 champion points – where they can show off to each other and fight each other and fight with the folks (like me) who think to themselves, "Everyone is running around with the same 3 sets, what build can I make to troll them?" But should that be the castle-siege game in Cyro? Or Imperial City? When you guys are done with cross-play, my estimate is that you will have population for both Cyro modes.

But actually playing it...

Problems: I've had 1 freeze that required restart of hardware. I play Xcode NA, usual crowded times of evenings and weekends. I estimate I've played Cyro 3 hours per day for the last 4 days.

As for performance problems, I do not think I have noticed anything. In other words, all problems directly related to Cyro server load are resolved with Vengeance.

The reduced range to 28m without the Assault skill line range buff at first feels like a bug until you get used to getting that close.

However, there are long standing problems that are not resolved because I think they are unrelated to Cyro server load. The problem of the client just throwing away 10% of input. Like, before character login, even pressing A to go to the character select screen is thrown away 10% of the time. Been that way since PS4 in 2016. This 10% input loss plus the slightly finicky logic of getting into keep doors can create some very tense moments ending in humiliating character death, but again, I never associated that problem with Cyro server load. It's just part of the glitchiness of the game irrespective of server load.

Joy_Division

Theignson wrote: »

While I agree with much of what you say, it is a mistake to repeat ZOS's previous philosophy that siege is the counter for zergs/organized groups. This was the message I received most often during Vengeance when the zerg came, "Siege limit reached." So what am I supposed to do in this situation? Stand around and do nothing with my useless abilities. Not fun. The other issue with just using siege as a counter is there are times when it can;t be used or is impractical to do so. The third floor nonsense on Greyhost is the most outstanding example of this as there are very few areas to put down siege and 90% of the outer ring serves as LOS. There is nothing wrong with player AoE abilities and ultimates being used for exactly what they were intentded. Siege should be used as a supplementary and synergistic tool to fight zergs/groups, not the solution

It's true that the most common way I died was to run up to a mass of players and pop "Vengeance soul shred", only to remember that it only stuns 3 of them and the other 10 kill me in midair, lol.

On the other hand, in vengeance keep defense, it is much more feasible to push out (if you can convince ep to do so) and have a massive battle to push out the invaders, than it is in live-- for the same reason, they can't aoe all of you to death. This is how we won several huge keep battles. I personally enjoy keep battles and open field battles the most in Cyrodil. TTK is not so much an issue in those settings, I guess.

Joy, if it were up to you as the game designer, where would you go with PvP from this point?

To take each part:

AOE caps always hurt the defender and the outnumbered. In a keep defense, the attackers must go through a small breech, the defenders can literally push from everywhere. The attackers will always benefit from damage reduction. The scenario you are describing - the defenders could push out if they have the benefit of damage reduction - is exactly the problem they face from the attackers. So by helping them do this, you are handicapping the defenders. Indeed, the way I get inside a keep is always the same, just charge through the breech because I am confident the artificial mitigation will keep me alive. The defenders can push out from jumping off the roof or going through a postern (which they should since that creates a flanking attack).

If you play EP Pc/NA, did you see the utter crap that AD did at the bridge about 11:30ish last night (sat)? Just charged through both gates with sheer numbers keeping them alive. This is a clear example of how AOE damage caps remove skill, tactics, and make an outnumbered defense unfeasible.

As for what I would do:

The biggest takeaway I have from the Vengeance tests is that it is possible to have big battles all over the map and that playing without the obvious pain points of broken sets like Rush of Agony, Troll tanks, oppressive organized groups, and do everything builds has been insanely refreshing. Some things from Vengeance are absolutely worth keeping and should be included in the next update, such as targeted heals and we've finally convinced ZOS that having different mechanics for PvE and PvP works just fine.

What isn't there is the balance. Some class kits are just better than others. Vengeance I had about the right balance between offense and defense. Vengeance II swung too far in favor of defense/healing. I think it was a mistake for ZOS not to tweak/reform here. Vengeance I showed us it was possible to have big battles. Vengeance II should have tried to further nail down the balance and address the one thing even the Vengeance supporters admitted was definitely a flaw in Vengeance I: the bigger Zerg always wins.

Obviously I feel AoE caps are a huge reason here. But it's not the only one. The expensive ultimates are very unsatisfying/weak, so we just don't have the tools needed to give outnumbered players a fighting chance.

I think this needs to be addressed. ZOS can't just ignore it and count on people having fun because of the big battles. Those battles are only fun because there is tension. You're not quite so sure you'll win, but then you play well and win, so you convince yourself that you accomplished something. Once it becomes apparent who will win, then the tension is gone, and then there is the negative feeling that no matter what you do it won't matter because you're going to lose.

I do think there needs to be some gear and buildcrafting, obviously simplified (like the abilities) Now that ZOS is open to separating PvE and PvP, they can do this without having the overly complicated and calculation intense stuff that is on PvE Live.

As much as I complain about "ball groups" that fact is that there are times I would very much like to play in a group. Aside from the social aspect, the feeling of working together to accomplish something greater than the sum of the individual parts, i.e., being a team, is a core MMO experience. Why ZOS didn't do a darn thing about the awful mechanics that drive latency down the toilet and overpower these groups when they had concrete data right in front of their eyes that PvP was both more performant and enjoyable, I don't know. I would unconditionally insist on doing something for update 47. Groups of all sizes should have tools at their disposal to enable them to be a team. We can find something in-between broken Live and nothing Vengeance.

JiveSalts

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, most of my entire time in the campaign was spent in large battles.
Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
For the most part things felt more laggy compared to the first vengeance test. Combat itself feels a bit bland especially since it's mostly just whoever has the most players win.
What you think of the simplified abilities?
They're easy to understand, but feel boring and almost ineffective against the amount of healing in this iteration.
Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc?
No
What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
The big battles are fun at first, but get pretty boring and predictable when the main way to turn the tide of battle is just to get more players.
Do you have any general feedback?
It's nice not having the dreaded stuck in combat bug. I also enjoy just being to jump into cyro without having to heavily invest my time and gold in a character. While I understand this is a test, I'll still say that I don't believe Vengeance would be fun in the long run. The cap on offensive AoEs is too restrictive and oils shouldn't be the only way to meaningfully damage large groups. The AoE healing cap seems fine, although HoTs are a little too strong. Overall, as a test, it's fine and I hope ZOS is getting the data needed to know where the performance issues are coming from. But if it's somehow a potential new/replacement campaign, it needs a lot more work to see the light of day and even then, I doubt the pvp population is large enough to support it for long.

colossalvoids

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, both primetime and off hours PC EU.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
Compared to live - yes, obviously especially considering player caps difference. Compared to the last test held - no, performance tended to deteriorate hugely on larger 3-way sieges when all the factions stack in one keep's grounds making game barely playable and people reported being booted, crashed etc. also. Potentially AOE caps and new healing capabilities contributed hugely as the last time almost the same scenarios didn't affected performance that drastically. Still impressive that such things can be held in Cyro without whole server being booted out constantly. Outside of such scenarios it's responsive as expected, no ping spikes or anything of that sort. Both three-way lagfests and usual gameplay feels fun, reminds me of ESO of old. Both grouped with 1-2 players, faction stack riding and solo.

What you think of the simplified abilities?

• Still good, added skill lines covered quite a few missing points there. Resto feels too much already even in such bare bones environment. NB's offering was already too much for the kit, with resto it's basically making the class immortal paired with cloak so personally ditched both in favor of fair experience. Balance wise i'd up the damage tooltips (especially for ultimate's, also no player cap) a bit and lower healing output and any smart healing going, more targeted healing preferred.
  
• Simplified abilities is also a great opportunity to bring back some mechanical class identity lost with years of nerfs due to more complex cross interactions and issues or simply being targeted in a patch that was reverted later without looking back.
  
• Morphs might be a mistake all along as there's usually no real choice involved. Finally splitting PvE and PvP there's a chance to look at it critically and contextually.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc?
No.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

• Worse than the first test, but good overall. Big battles with multiple factions involved feels great again, action in different map corners simultaneously also. Hopefully it could bring tactics back in Cyro as it wasn't a thing for half a decade at the very least. Lack of ganking, troll-tanks or ball groups feels great. Wonder if you'll be able to pull it out including sets back again in the future. Also how to retain player agency behind every action, as for example currently pulls are basically harmless if you have at least one mitigation ability and a HoT going compared to live ones that are automated, not granting any form of immunity making you ready for the next pull right away and dumping huge AoE damage on you all without a direct input from the player. It's a night and day difference which makes or breaks so to say.
  
• One of the major things is Vengeance version of PvP encourages people to give it a chance compared to current live environment getting to rest in one GCD by not a 17k health stamnb that can be traced back to it's Shadow Image and killed to a pot but a do-all generalist with immense effective health and no flaws. It's a great alternative to below 50 as-is already. It's already serving that function and also brings people I didn't saw in game since like Elsweyr back.

Do you have any general feedback?

• Caps\target on healing abilities if a good thing, it's still one of those issues that needs a serious look at both test and live environments. Player caps can be easily swapped to removing the ability of stacking similar healing over time effects probably skyrocketing performance and dealing with a long standing issues of toxic gameplay choices that discourage any play altogether. Test with no cross-healing allowed was the second best recent time to Vengeance, personally.
• Player caps on AOE damaging abilities make no sense and limit tools dealing with bigger groups, creating issues for defenders in keeps etc. We got a confirmation years and years back that those don't work as devs intended them to (behavior wise) and contribute to overall lag. It's inclusion again is an old mistake made new for no reason. When you're cornered in a keep by 2 factions with 2-3 breaches going the ultimate shouldn't just evaporate dealing a couple k to 3 people, it's clearly missing it's design point to the absurd levels. If Oils is the answer there's not enough space currently and it feels like a cheap way out rather than intended design decision yet gain. Borderline siege equipment is boring compared to using your actual kit and skills to deal with an opponent at that.
• Visual clarity is great currently. You see the class, you know what's coming and can see clearly what's being used. You're actually breaking free and are animated correctly with no indefinite effects. Hopeful that subclassing can stay away as deep fissure is in no way indicates the merciless going next at you etc.
• From this experience having 15fps and above 350 ping:
  
  Keep's Resources potentially should have way bigger practical role for the defenders (and monetary for offence) to split some players up from one stacking point and to allow some more tactical moves throughout the siege instead of just breach stacking causing more lag. Overall encouragement to split players up to at least 2 fronts\keeps are needed like potential harsher returns on AP gain the more people around. Catapults are sorely missed also.

xylena_lazarow

colossalvoids wrote: »

Keep's Resources potentially should have way bigger practical role for the defenders (and monetary for offence) to split some players up from one stacking point and to allow some more tactical moves throughout the siege instead of just breach stacking causing more lag.

I always wished this too. In theory there's this hilariously overengineered keep upgrade system tied to holding resources for some ambiguous amount of time, but it has no meaningful impact on the battlefield. Even dumber to me is that resource tower fortifications only ever help protect the invaders, while being worthless to the keep's defenders.

licenturion

Just posting my feedback in the official thread as well.

I loved the Vengeance campaign gameplay wise. I found the big battles pretty engaging and the lack of one shots extremely refreshing. I also love the epic zergs. This seems to me the actual point of a big war game mode like Cyrodill. If Vengeance plays like those ball groups people keep mentioning, I might look into joining one.

I don't PvP much, but I would probably play more if there was an extra permanent Vengeance playlist. I would however keep the original campaign as is for the people who enjoy that version of PvP more. But there is also a market for people who would love a more simplified version where everyone is on equal grounds and where you can just jump in without hours of prep for the latest meta.

Another possibility would be to introduce a select pool of sets and skills on a rotating basis everytime a campaign ends. That would keep things fresh, but still keeps the nature of easy drop in and balanced experience. And this also would keep performance acceptable.

I experienced small performance drops on PC EU during the intense epic battles.

Major_Toughness

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
Compared to normal Cyrodiil, yes. Compared to Test 1, no, performance was down.
Combat is not fun, there are no tools to use and the difference a player can make to fights is significantly diminished.
Lowering the skill ceiling and raising the skill floor until the gap is barely visible.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
Somewhat OK. Far too many abilities are "cluttered" with buffs and debuffs everywhere.
Perfect example is Power Extraction, which because it was a dead skill now gives two buffs and a debuff, which made it a must-slot. Not an acceptable approach honestly.
The lower duration of DoTs/HoTs is nice, also goes a long way to preventing the stuck in combat bug. Same with having less buffs and debuffs to monitor.
However this also goes to making combat less fun, as you can't benefit from using certain skills because of the unique debuffs or buffs.
The next to non-existance of status effects, BIG positive.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
Removes too much of the combat which makes ESO great in order to gain performance.
It is long known that HoTs are the biggest problem and the performance drop between Test 1 and Test 2 reinforces that.

Do you have any general feedback?
Less effects on skills - big yes. However there are too little effects.
No/less status effects - big yes.
Less HoTs - big yes.
Shorter HoTs/DoTs - big yes.
Number of available skills, passives, items & customisation which goes into an RPG - big no, and it's not worth the sacrifice.

MincMincMinc

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?

• Yes, I ran a 7-10 man group where we tested large scale fights between the two other factions going into their seiges. We also went off to the side to pull our own fights at the side keeps and outposts to see what the enemy response was. Compared to live, vengeance had people everywhere which was refreshing. It did not feel like cyrodil was a void.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?

• This test is clearly worse due to group reasons. I had my group go into large battles only spamming aoe heals and effects. During never ending fights it was clear that this form of gameplay caused issues. We all had turned down game settings to avoid any potential FPS issues. The "lag" was mainly felt as input delay, input loss, and rubber banding. Our belief is that either AoE, Cross healing outside of group, or over time effect stacking is the root cause.

What do you think of the simplified abilities?

• Simplified skills are fine and clear from a combat perspective. The most important thing is that people can see and react to what is going on. Proc set pvp has this issue where it becomes impossible to see important events.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

• As a test, it serves its purpose well. More systems must be added. Feedback wise if you could bring back some basic build elements like a few generic gear sets and stat choices people may be happier and focus on the testing instead of worrying about template pvp being permanent.

Do you have any general feedback?

Cyrodil rules and keep fights in general should be looked at. Here are some examples

• Resource nodes need to be more important. Currently zergs/groups only run to the front door instead of spreading out to resoures. This only enables large groups forming and staying together perpetuating performance issues. Even during keep fights resources could be used for single use spawn points or bonuses that are necessary to take the keep. Having these solo/small group objectives also helps teach new players and make them comfortable splitting away from the lag inducing horde of players.
• Mounts being too fast or impossible to dismount due to infinite stamina also enable mass hordes of players to form. Yes ganking is a necessary evil and is healthy for everyone. Ganking used to be the main way new players learned how to solo. They could pick and choose an even fight against who they wanted. The player on the receiving end is then forced to learn and engage in solo or smallman pvp. The main benefit is that it caused players to break off and spread out from the 50+ man groups lagging the server.
• The map should be rearranged and transitus lines should be connected to the outer keeps and outposts. For instance drakelow shouldn't connect to the gate, but instead cropsford should connect to alessia. Harlun should connect to brk. The bridges and goat paths were a good idea, but never utilized properly to break up groups on the map.

Stamicka

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?

I played near quite a few large scale battles and suffered from both client side and server side lag. By the 2nd day of the test I was scared to go near the very large battles because I would freeze or crash. This was not a hardware issue as my PC is pretty new and has way more than enough power for ESO. I also wasn't alone in having performance issues. Being near large battles was very hit or miss.

What you think of the simplified abilities?

I still think the abilities are a bit too simple and part of the magic of early ESO was the presence of multifunction and conditional skills. For example, a skill like Crystal Frags was both a burst skill and a stun. The 20% probability for frag proc after a magicka cost skill cast was also an interesting mechanic when it was limited to the bar where frag was slotted. It rewarded aggressive sorcs with high APM (unless they were front bar shielders). Stuff like that adds some nice depth to PvP. Some other examples are: having to deal damage to get a good burst out of purifying light, needing light attacks to get a merciless resolve, and the way flame lash used to interact with off balance.

In Vengeance, a skill like power of the light just deals damage after 6 seconds regardless. Merciless Resolve is similar. These sorts of things make PvP more boring and decrease skill expression. I actually like that skills aren't proccing enchantments and status effects though. Another big downside is the AOE cap on skills... that just needs to go.

When it comes to healing, I don't understand why it was so much stronger than damage skills. That should never come back. One good thing about healing is that you have to put your reticle on someone to give them a heal though. I actually think that's a very good idea and it could solve a lot of issues both with balance and performance.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc?

I did freeze and get booted as I stated earlier, but no character corruption.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?

It's a mixed bag. Accessibility is great, aiming for higher population caps is great, having players on more equal footing is great. The game still needs builds though, sets should just be more balanced with each other. I also think making builds needs to be less complex. There's way more moving parts in making a build than there used to be and this has only worsened the power gap.

I didn't like that my performance was significantly worse than last time and that the skill ceiling was so low. However, I do think that Vengeance has great potential if the right changes are made.

Do you have any general feedback?

Seeing some lag creep back in with the introduction of a few more simple skills isn't a good sign. Skills need to be a bit more complex and there's still a lot of missing skills on top of that. So getting Vengeance to a state where the PvP experience is good and healthy would probably put us back at square one with performance and population caps.

I think it's time to go a different route rather than the simplified skills. For one, why not get rid of the skill ranking system? For example Force Pulse has a rank 3 version and a rank 4 version and there's some minor differences between them. I don't think this adds much of a feeling of progression for people leveling, but it definitely adds bloat to the game itself by introducing extra skill IDs. Could getting rid of that system help a bit?

I also remember when certain core mechanics were moved to the server side in 2019. The game felt way less fluid after this was done and performance took a pretty major hit. I know that running anti cheat checks on the server is also costly, but what about the external anti cheat route that other games use to keep certain mechanics on the client side?

It just seems to me like the skill simplification route is a dead end if we want to keep a fun skill based environment.

Stamicka

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Do you believe that 100-0 combos can help the population of build PvP recover? I don't, and I'd bet my account that it does the complete opposite. Gatekeeps noobs and burns out regulars to quitting. This game just isn't sweaty enough for instant death as punishment, especially not with awful performance guaranteed to eat away your precious milliseconds.

You would lose your account in this bet. I definitely think that 100-0 kills would help the PvP population recover. PvP in ESO was far more alive in the early years of the game compared to now. So there were literally more people PvPing when 100-0 kills were a thing. As time to kill started getting higher and higher and 100-0 kills stopped being as much of a thing, more and more veterans started to leave.There's a lot of people out there who absolutely love ESO's PvP and combat, but they left due to balance reasons or performance reasons. A change of direction and some good PvP balance choices along with performance improvements could bring a ton of people back.

I could go into why 100-0 burst kills are a win all around, but this isn't the place. Long story short, balance, new players, and veterans all benefit from 100-0 burst kills. The game was originally designed around it after all, and departing from it has caused many issues.

Sarannah

So I completed the golden pursuits on both PC EU and PC NA. Just for info.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes! And really enjoyed these battles as they were mostly fair battles.


Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
Had no issues at all with lag or delay or responsiveness, even with hundreds of players nearby. (Did have one client freeze for some reason.)
The combat is a lot of fun, especially with these watered down abilities. Combat is fair and good, also more tactical. Which made it actually fun to be in Cyrodiil.
The unlimited siege/repairs also took a load away from the managing PvP equipment, and allows me to focus on the combat more. No matter what else happens, this should stay forever.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
Love the simplified abilities. But I do feel we should have stayed with class abilities only, like in the previous vengeance test campaign. This not only for a fair playing field, but also to make classes feel like actual classes in combat. Some of the non-class abilities are much too powerful for PvP purposes. Class-only abilities would also make balancing easier.

Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, hit lag, etc?
No.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
This is the way PvP should be. Accessible, fair, and totally about player skill.

Do you have any general feedback?
-The test should have ran for atleast two weeks. Personally I did not have a lot of time to play this week, and feel like I would have wanted to play this type of PvP more.
-The test should not have ran during another event.
-We should be able to return to the alliance's main base with ease(one button) when not in combat.
-The unlimited siege/repairs equipment should stay like this forever.

OccultOverload

In addition to the promted feedback which I gave earlier in the thread I wanted to add some additional feedback for Vengeance:

1. Catering to Casuals
   Let’s be real—this event is clearly built for casual players. And yeah, they’re loving it. For a lot of them, this is the first time PvP feels fun because they’re not instantly getting killed by coordinated groups or skilled players. But for the hardcore PvP crowd, it feels like a slap in the face. I've seen a lot of people comment that dont have time to farm the best builds etc, and frankly its nonsense, there are plenty of viable builds that are craftable. The problem is people dont want to ask for help, or research the builds themselves, but rather want to simply be handed something ready to go. This devalues a core pillar of every Elder Scrolls game ever which is customizing and creating builds for your character to make them as powerful as it can be. More on this in the Theorycrafting is Dead below.
   
2. Zergs, Everywhere
   Teamwork and coordination used to matter. Now? Not so much. Small, skilled groups that used to take down zergs with smart plays are completely overrun. Instead of strategy, it’s just massive groups spamming light attacks and winning by numbers. If you’re a skilled player or part of a tight group, you basically have no impact anymore.
   
3. Theorycrafting is Dead
   All the time spent farming gear, crafting meta builds, and theorycrafting? Yeah, that’s out the window. Vengeance flattens everything, so there's zero reward for optimizing your build. Everyone’s just running around in the same watered-down setups, and the grind to be the best feels meaningless.
   
4. Where’s the Skill?
   The gap between good and new players has almost disappeared. It doesn’t matter how much time you've spent mastering your build or learning the ins and outs of PvP—it barely makes a difference now. Outplaying someone used to feel satisfying. Now? Not so much. There’s just no real reason to improve when everyone's forced into the same mold.
   
5. Slow and Clunky
   On top of everything else, the combat just feels slow and clunky with the Vengeance-specific skills. The abilities they force into the event are awkward, unresponsive, and don’t flow well with how PvP normally plays. It’s like trying to fight while wearing ankle weights—everything feels delayed, and combos that usually feel crisp and satisfying now feel sluggish and forced. Instead of enhancing gameplay, these skills break the rhythm entirely, making combat feel more like a chore than something skillful or fun.

In the end, Vengeance represents more than just a new direction—it’s a clear signal that the heart of competitive PvP in Elder Scrolls Online is being deprioritized. What once made ESO’s PvP scene compelling—its strategic depth, its distinct identity, the sense of mastery earned through dedication—is slowly being stripped away in favor of short-term accessibility. It’s not just a design shift; it’s a philosophical one.

ZOS seems increasingly focused on casual engagement, shaping the game to be more immediately approachable at the cost of long-term depth. That may draw in new or returning players in the short run, but it risks alienating the dedicated core—the players who have kept the PvP scene alive through years of patches, imbalances, and evolving metas. These are the players who studied builds, learned positioning, and engaged in community-driven rivalries that gave ESO PvP its soul.

To watch that identity dissolve in favor of simplified systems and fleeting appeal is disheartening. It feels like the spirit of competition—the very thing that made PvP meaningful—is being sacrificed. For those of us who’ve poured countless hours into perfecting our skills, building communities, and fighting not just for victory but for the pride of mastery, this shift isn’t just disappointing. It’s a loss. And it cuts deep.

I sincerely hope that if any aspect of this "test" makes it to live service it will live on as its own unique campaign ruleset.

Aylish

My char felt more like she used to be so I was more comfortable with Vengeance skills than before when there were only class abilities. Everything feels slow and static though.

Performance was a pain. There were skill lags and throw backs on the map.
My client crashed during a large and long battle for a keep. So I missed the AP tick for that.
After I completed the Golden Pursuits, I didn't come back.