Ruining Necro Skills in PvP in the Name of Performance

CameraBeardThePirate

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Corpses are being changed in the name of performance. For PvP, a player's total Corpse and Pet count is getting slashed to 5, and all corpse durations will now be as short as Blastbone's corpse duration at 5 seconds.

This means that Necro players will no longer be able to easily create more than 2 corpses at a given time. That prevents them from using many of their abilities that require a high number of corpses to reach their full potency.

The corpse changes either need to be reverted, or multi-corpse consumers need to be buffed. It's a slap in the face to gut these abilities in the name of performance and then not acknowledge the problem you've created.

necro_the_crafter

Agree.

First step would be making blightbones and ghost into just a visuals, same thing that they did with mad tinkerer summon.

Second, reduce amount of corpse generated as well as increse potency of corpse consumers to match slower generation?
Or look for a ways to make corpses not an npc but its own object instead thus removing a limits for them?
Or overhaul necros class unique resourse into something else?
Souls/ black soul gems would be a good thematic alternative, maybe lich crystals, like the ones from caluurions proc.

francesinhalover

hopefully pvp and pve will be separate this year.
vengeance systems gives me hope.

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

sans-culottes

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Agree.

First step would be making blightbones and ghost into just a visuals, same thing that they did with mad tinkerer summon.

Second, reduce amount of corpse generated as well as increse potency of corpse consumers to match slower generation?
Or look for a ways to make corpses not an npc but its own object instead thus removing a limits for them?
Or overhaul necros class unique resourse into something else?
Souls/ black soul gems would be a good thematic alternative, maybe lich crystals, like the ones from caluurions proc.

Black Soul Gems would be a far more thematically grounded and mechanically flexible resource than this awkward corpse system, which feels like a half-measure borrowed from Diablo without the systems needed to make it functional. The current approach restricts encounter design and punishes mobility, all for the sake of a gimmick that doesn’t scale well. Subclassing only highlights how brittle the Necromancer’s kit really is.

CameraBeardThePirate

francesinhalover wrote: »

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

Are you really commenting this on a post of an example of PvE ruining PvP? This limit was changed because the game started freaking out in certain PvE fights with lots of corpses, preventing Blastbones from spawning.

Changes affect both, and it always goes both ways. Sometimes PvE affects PvP and sometimes PvP affects PvE.

And despite what happens with Vengeance, Battlegrounds and IC will still be regular skills as far as we know, so this stuff is still important.

Gilvoth

this may have to do with it being overpowered in the future with the next patch

Deimus

francesinhalover wrote: »

hopefully pvp and pve will be separate this year.
vengeance systems gives me hope.

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

I'd like for ZOS to use systems like Battle Spirit to balance PvP without touching PvE and vise versa, but this is a purely PvP issue. In PvE you can have 10 pets which lets you easily use every Necro corpse consumer to its full potential except the class mastery, but with all the npcs you'll kill in PvE that's not really an issue.

In PvP you will literally be unable to play a Necromancer and use your multi corpse consumers at full power, even if you drop all the class pets (Mender, Minion, and BB) you still won't be able to use Bitter Harvest at full power.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Agree.

First step would be making blightbones and ghost into just a visuals, same thing that they did with mad tinkerer summon.

Second, reduce amount of corpse generated as well as increse potency of corpse consumers to match slower generation?
Or look for a ways to make corpses not an npc but its own object instead thus removing a limits for them?
Or overhaul necros class unique resourse into something else?
Souls/ black soul gems would be a good thematic alternative, maybe lich crystals, like the ones from caluurions proc.

They could use the lich crystal visual addition to the corpse system of absorbing souls from corpses to use later. Maybe when an unused corspe expires within 28 meters of the player they passively collect them to a max of 4 and can use them as a corpse in combat. This could be PvP only as it could work as a solution to the very restrictive pet cap affecting the corpse mechanic and be a solution to the tethers issue with LoS and high mobility in PvP letting the Necromancer use a lich crystal to attach Shocking Siphon or Restoring Tether to themselves.


Also taps mic @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler is this thing even on?

StarOfElyon

And there's the fact that I'm going to be giving up Soul Assault because it'll no longer benefit from Rapid Rot. My second cro is getting buried this update.

BananaBender

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

This limit was changed because the game started freaking out in certain PvE fights with lots of corpses, preventing Blastbones from spawning.

This bug is still happening on PTS btw, so if that really was the cause they didn't fix it properly. Or likely it wasn't the cause to begin with.

CameraBeardThePirate

BananaBender wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

This limit was changed because the game started freaking out in certain PvE fights with lots of corpses, preventing Blastbones from spawning.

This bug is still happening on PTS btw, so if that really was the cause they didn't fix it properly. Or likely it wasn't the cause to begin with.

Good to know that corpse consumers really are being killed for no reason

sans-culottes

BananaBender wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

This limit was changed because the game started freaking out in certain PvE fights with lots of corpses, preventing Blastbones from spawning.

This bug is still happening on PTS btw, so if that really was the cause they didn't fix it properly. Or likely it wasn't the cause to begin with.

I’m shocked.

sarahthes

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

Are you really commenting this on a post of an example of PvE ruining PvP? This limit was changed because the game started freaking out in certain PvE fights with lots of corpses, preventing Blastbones from spawning.

Changes affect both, and it always goes both ways. Sometimes PvE affects PvP and sometimes PvP affects PvE.

And despite what happens with Vengeance, Battlegrounds and IC will still be regular skills as far as we know, so this stuff is still important.

I would love for them to balance PvP and PvE completely separately by removing PvE sourced sets from PvP and vice versa (with crafted sets available to both), and same with skill lines (undaunted and psijic would be PvE only, assault/support would be PvP only, world and guild skills would be shared).

Then maybe y'all could get the balance and gameplay you deserve and the two sides would stop fighting as though PvP vs PvE balance were two sides of the 3 banners war (werewolves are the third faction in this fight).

YandereGirlfriend

sarahthes wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

Are you really commenting this on a post of an example of PvE ruining PvP? This limit was changed because the game started freaking out in certain PvE fights with lots of corpses, preventing Blastbones from spawning.

Changes affect both, and it always goes both ways. Sometimes PvE affects PvP and sometimes PvP affects PvE.

And despite what happens with Vengeance, Battlegrounds and IC will still be regular skills as far as we know, so this stuff is still important.

I would love for them to balance PvP and PvE completely separately by removing PvE sourced sets from PvP and vice versa (with crafted sets available to both), and same with skill lines (undaunted and psijic would be PvE only, assault/support would be PvP only, world and guild skills would be shared).

Then maybe y'all could get the balance and gameplay you deserve and the two sides would stop fighting as though PvP vs PvE balance were two sides of the 3 banners war (werewolves are the third faction in this fight).

I'll pass on this particular suggestion as a PvP main player.

I think that we should all simply demand that changes be better and more fully thought-out vs. the sort of, "Nobody asked for this, nobody wants this, why is this a thing?!" changes, like this one, that we too-frequently receive.

IncultaWolf

Deimus wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

hopefully pvp and pve will be separate this year.
vengeance systems gives me hope.

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

I'd like for ZOS to use systems like Battle Spirit to balance PvP without touching PvE and vise versa, but this is a purely PvP issue. In PvE you can have 10 pets which lets you easily use every Necro corpse consumer to its full potential except the class mastery, but with all the npcs you'll kill in PvE that's not really an issue.

In PvP you will literally be unable to play a Necromancer and use your multi corpse consumers at full power, even if you drop all the class pets (Mender, Minion, and BB) you still won't be able to use Bitter Harvest at full power.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Agree.

First step would be making blightbones and ghost into just a visuals, same thing that they did with mad tinkerer summon.

Second, reduce amount of corpse generated as well as increse potency of corpse consumers to match slower generation?
Or look for a ways to make corpses not an npc but its own object instead thus removing a limits for them?
Or overhaul necros class unique resourse into something else?
Souls/ black soul gems would be a good thematic alternative, maybe lich crystals, like the ones from caluurions proc.

They could use the lich crystal visual addition to the corpse system of absorbing souls from corpses to use later. Maybe when an unused corspe expires within 28 meters of the player they passively collect them to a max of 4 and can use them as a corpse in combat. This could be PvP only as it could work as a solution to the very restrictive pet cap affecting the corpse mechanic and be a solution to the tethers issue with LoS and high mobility in PvP letting the Necromancer use a lich crystal to attach Shocking Siphon or Restoring Tether to themselves.


Also taps mic @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler is this thing even on?

The devs have never commented on necromancer changes outside of one reddit ask us anything post mentioning giving necro major brutality/sorcery. Don't know why people still ping them on the forums when it's a wasted effort. I tried for years and especially when they were reworking stalking blastbones.

Alaztor91

I'm sure ZOS will be ''closely monitoring this change, and will tweak and fine-tune if necessary''. It's not like they just go and push poor thought changes and let them linger for 12+ months right?

FoJul

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Agree.

First step would be making blightbones and ghost into just a visuals, same thing that they did with mad tinkerer summon.

Second, reduce amount of corpse generated as well as increse potency of corpse consumers to match slower generation?
Or look for a ways to make corpses not an npc but its own object instead thus removing a limits for them?
Or overhaul necros class unique resourse into something else?
Souls/ black soul gems would be a good thematic alternative, maybe lich crystals, like the ones from caluurions proc.

I love the ability to kill blastbones before it nukes me tho. My offense is my defense.

Dialectic93

The worst part is you can't even use your best pvp ultimate, Animate Blastbone to do the 4 skeletal combo. Now u will call 0-1/3 blastbones. A 300 pvp ultimate that does nothing. Necro is just deleted from pvp game now. Since u always have 3 corpses 3 pets summoned and can never use your ultimate.

Deimus

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

hopefully pvp and pve will be separate this year.
vengeance systems gives me hope.

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

I'd like for ZOS to use systems like Battle Spirit to balance PvP without touching PvE and vise versa, but this is a purely PvP issue. In PvE you can have 10 pets which lets you easily use every Necro corpse consumer to its full potential except the class mastery, but with all the npcs you'll kill in PvE that's not really an issue.

In PvP you will literally be unable to play a Necromancer and use your multi corpse consumers at full power, even if you drop all the class pets (Mender, Minion, and BB) you still won't be able to use Bitter Harvest at full power.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Agree.

First step would be making blightbones and ghost into just a visuals, same thing that they did with mad tinkerer summon.

Second, reduce amount of corpse generated as well as increse potency of corpse consumers to match slower generation?
Or look for a ways to make corpses not an npc but its own object instead thus removing a limits for them?
Or overhaul necros class unique resourse into something else?
Souls/ black soul gems would be a good thematic alternative, maybe lich crystals, like the ones from caluurions proc.

They could use the lich crystal visual addition to the corpse system of absorbing souls from corpses to use later. Maybe when an unused corspe expires within 28 meters of the player they passively collect them to a max of 4 and can use them as a corpse in combat. This could be PvP only as it could work as a solution to the very restrictive pet cap affecting the corpse mechanic and be a solution to the tethers issue with LoS and high mobility in PvP letting the Necromancer use a lich crystal to attach Shocking Siphon or Restoring Tether to themselves.


Also taps mic @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler is this thing even on?

The devs have never commented on necromancer changes outside of one reddit ask us anything post mentioning giving necro major brutality/sorcery. Don't know why people still ping them on the forums when it's a wasted effort. I tried for years and especially when they were reworking stalking blastbones.

It's a shame that they don't and that's a big reason for a lot of the problems they've finally decided to tackle exist. Wouldn't have gotten nearly as bad and saved them a lot more money if they communicated their intentions and listened to player feedback before they wasting time developing bad or unpolished skills, designs, or systems.

They said they want to be better with communication this year so a change implemented to improve performance unexpectedly killing multiple skills and unique resource system of one of your paid DLC classes is the perfect time to chime in and say "Our Bad we're going to find a solution maybe a temporary one or just roll this change back until we find a way that doesn't break this class." Everyone's happy, the threads and posts stop, they build trust with their customer base.

It's easy for a company to say they want be better at communication and only chime in on positive or low stake things that don't really have larger impact, but if there is integrity behind that claim then this is something they should address as it impacts a lot more than their reasons for this change implies their goal was. Especially since it involves the same class they had an extremely controversial change to the previous year and decided to bury their heads in the sand instead of rolling up their sleeves, acknowledging their customers, and taking action.

tl;dr Pinging them puts the ball in their court, lets us know if their actions will match their words, and removes the ability to claim they were unaware.

Zyaneth_Bal

francesinhalover wrote: »

hopefully pvp and pve will be separate this year.
vengeance systems gives me hope.

That way pve can stop being ruined by pvp.

All vengeance will achieve is ruin pvp in a different way, there’s no good ending

Navaac223

Gilvoth wrote: »

this may have to do with it being overpowered in the future with the next patch

Ok maybe you're talking about pve, but it's still very far behind arcanist

Edit : Wait maybe he's joking. Please don't send me to r/woosh, please

YandereGirlfriend

Navaac223 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

this may have to do with it being overpowered in the future with the next patch

Ok maybe you're talking about pve, but it's still very far behind arcanist

Edit : Wait maybe he's joking. Please don't send me to r/woosh, please

This is extremely apt.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Necro is the worst at fullfilling its themes out of all the classes in the game.