Raid Leaders, will you require your teams to run new subclassing meta?

MurkyWetWolf198

sarahthes

Yes

Yes, but that is because of the types of raids I typically lead (HM and trifecta progs primarily).

I won't require it for casual farms most likely, although for my rosters I will request specific skills.

Dagoth_Rac

No

I don't run much HM or Leaderboard stuff. For regular veteran, as long as you can do enough DPS to clear, can learn from mistakes, and coordinate with other group members, I don't care what your build is. Did the boss die? We good.

RealLoveBVB

No

Several years ago the "damage cap" or highest parses were 80k, some years before even way less and players still managed to do trifectas.
These days the damage is given out very generous, so there's no point to force players into meta stuff.
If the nerf hammer doesn't hit too hard on pure class players, then everything is fine and everyone in my group can play as he wants.

Malyore

No

Ew, no.

Amottica

A good raid leader would not require their DDs to run a subclass outside of needing some skills to benefit the group.

Strong raids tend to have a DPS requirement first and foremost. Players may be asked to run certain types of builds when learning the content, but later, they can play how they want, provided they meet the DPS requirements. Some synergies are planned, which may be set bonuses and skills, but as long as those can be obtained and the damage is there, the rest does not matter.

Healers and tanks are a different story as there are more likely to be cases where certain combinations are needed. Just as they are asked to run certain sets some skill lines may be requested.

I am speaking of well-organized raids. I do not expect all groups to be interested in performing at their best since we all have different interests.

madmufffin

Yes

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

Amottica

madmufffin wrote: »

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

I agree that I made suggestions when I discovered things to improve the group.

Top-end players will not use subclassing in raids because it is new. They will use it if and only if they can find better performance. Top-end players try different things and tweak their build with the improvements they see. These players couldn't care less about the meta. Well, they are the ones who often define meta.

sarahthes

Yes

Amottica wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

I agree that I made suggestions when I discovered things to improve the group.

Top-end players will not use subclassing in raids because it is new. They will use it if and only if they can find better performance. Top-end players try different things and tweak their build with the improvements they see. These players couldn't care less about the meta. Well, they are the ones who often define meta.

They'll use it because it's new and because the inherent power increase was something they were already anticipating and theorycrafting when subclassing first leaked a few weeks ago.

It is funny when someone does something weird in a run just to see if it works, that run gets a good score and a public log, and then everyone else copies it even though the person who was testing it didn't really think it was all that great.

Cominfordatoothbrush

No

I voted no but it's really "it depends". If it's nothing serious, I don't really care. I even have this outlook on the current meta. hm/trifecta groups, I expect a build optimized to most easily clear

tsaescishoeshiner

This is a misleading thread because in my experience, only very serious trial groups going for achievements require certain classes or builds for DPS.

Otherwise, as long as you can meet their DPS requirement and your build functions in content, I've never seen a class restriction for veteran non-hardmode DLC trials.

So I call it misleading because it might make players think they'll have to subclass to do vSS. Whereas instead, it means they can if it helps them get up to a DPS requirement they couldn't make before.

SolarRune

Totally depends on the group - if it's a fully comped HM or Trifecta prog group I could see it being needed as a part of the comp as defined by the lead, I'm sure some groups will go as far as expecting people to change mid-run.

But for open guild runs - no i dont see the need for vet runs to require subclassing.

sarahthes

Yes

SolarRune wrote: »

Totally depends on the group - if it's a fully comped HM or Trifecta prog group I could see it being needed as a part of the comp as defined by the lead, I'm sure some groups will go as far as expecting people to change mid-run.

But for open guild runs - no i dont see the need for vet runs to require subclassing.

The fact that you can use a skill respec scroll to change your subclass during a raid is actually pay to win, and I hope zos removes that.

Ishtarknows

Yes

sarahthes wrote: »

The fact that you can use a skill respec scroll to change your subclass during a raid is actually pay to win, and I hope zos removes that.

You can't call it pay to win when skill respec scrolls are regularly given to us as free log in rewards. I have a bundle in a chest that I've saved 'just in case'.

Ragnarok0130

Yes

SolarRune wrote: »

Totally depends on the group - if it's a fully comped HM or Trifecta prog group I could see it being needed as a part of the comp as defined by the lead, I'm sure some groups will go as far as expecting people to change mid-run.

But for open guild runs - no i dont see the need for vet runs to require subclassing.

I mean by the very fact that it's an "open" guild run would mean that it's not prescriptive so I don't think the OP was talking about fun runs just prog/HM/Trifecta groups. I personally don't want to multi-class but I will if I need to in order to accomplish the mission and my RL wants me to.

BananaBender

Yes

Ishtarknows wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The fact that you can use a skill respec scroll to change your subclass during a raid is actually pay to win, and I hope zos removes that.

You can't call it pay to win when skill respec scrolls are regularly given to us as free log in rewards. I have a bundle in a chest that I've saved 'just in case'.

Except that you go through the free ones in a matter of days or weeks.

gc0018

Yes

Or it is not fair for the others who pay full cost for the raid. Everyone pays full bill or everyone pays half bill.

Ph1p

Yes and no.

I have led both HM progression and vet intro runs for trials. I would want an optimized group setup for the former and not care at all for the latter. But on a very different note, I wonder how many endgame raid leads will be put off by subclassing because of the additional workload it generates, particularly if balancing changes continue over multiple patches.

Of course, there are always changes to what works best. ZOS constantly rebalances skills, adds new sets, creates new mechanics, and trial groups adjust accordingly. But this - along with scribing - comes on top of all that. I think this will translate to a bigger hurdle for new players to reach endgame and for raiders to step up into leading roles.

Ragnarok0130

Yes

Ph1p wrote: »

Yes and no.

Of course, there are always changes to what works best. ZOS constantly rebalances skills, adds new sets, creates new mechanics, and trial groups adjust accordingly. But this - along with scribing - comes on top of all that. I think this will translate to a bigger hurdle for new players to reach endgame and for raiders to step up into leading roles.

The difference here is the scope of change. If ZoS nerfs a skill or two we can adapt swap out a skill in our build, maybe adjust CP or try new sets to reclaim power and drive on because it's manageable. This however will be an explosion of the current system and I think it'll take much longer to figure out what works and there will likely be huge nerfs and even reworks of skills.

Then we have the fact that people will likely need new classes and to rank up those new skills to multiclass so potentially people may be forced to buy DLC classes even if they don't want to (probably an intended silver lining for ZoS). I have all classes fully ranked but frankly I'm not looking forward to the churn and turmoil that is about to hit the end game.

I 100% agree that this will translate into a bigger hurdle for new players to enter end game, and that's not even taking into account a potential exodus of the remaining trial leads who didn't leave after U35.

sarahthes

Yes

Ishtarknows wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The fact that you can use a skill respec scroll to change your subclass during a raid is actually pay to win, and I hope zos removes that.

You can't call it pay to win when skill respec scrolls are regularly given to us as free log in rewards. I have a bundle in a chest that I've saved 'just in case'.

If we clear HM 6-8 times a week while progressing the trifecta I promise we will run out of the 1-2 free respec scrolls we get in a month far faster than we can earn them.

Ishtarknows

Yes

BananaBender wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

The fact that you can use a skill respec scroll to change your subclass during a raid is actually pay to win, and I hope zos removes that.

You can't call it pay to win when skill respec scrolls are regularly given to us as free log in rewards. I have a bundle in a chest that I've saved 'just in case'.

Except that you go through the free ones in a matter of days or weeks.

Since subclasses are saved in the armoury you could do what console players have done for years and travel out, switch builds and travel back in. Sure it takes a few seconds, but using a scroll, selecting the skill line, setting up all the passives etc will take time too.

Amottica

sarahthes wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

I agree that I made suggestions when I discovered things to improve the group.

Top-end players will not use subclassing in raids because it is new. They will use it if and only if they can find better performance. Top-end players try different things and tweak their build with the improvements they see. These players couldn't care less about the meta. Well, they are the ones who often define meta.

They'll use it because it's new and because the inherent power increase was something they were already anticipating and theorycrafting when subclassing first leaked a few weeks ago.

It is funny when someone does something weird in a run just to see if it works, that run gets a good score and a public log, and then everyone else copies it even though the person who was testing it didn't really think it was all that great.

A top end raider will not use anything just because it is new. They will test anything they think might provide a benefit but that is testing and we are talking about actual use in raids.

Top-end raiders will use it in raids if they find it beneficial or if something about it improves the group. They will not use it in a raid simply because it is new. That is not how top-end raiders do top-end serious raiding.

We are not talking about the meta chasers but the ones who do the actual testing to find out what works best. The rest of us end up calling their results meta.

sarahthes

Yes

Amottica wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

I agree that I made suggestions when I discovered things to improve the group.

Top-end players will not use subclassing in raids because it is new. They will use it if and only if they can find better performance. Top-end players try different things and tweak their build with the improvements they see. These players couldn't care less about the meta. Well, they are the ones who often define meta.

They'll use it because it's new and because the inherent power increase was something they were already anticipating and theorycrafting when subclassing first leaked a few weeks ago.

It is funny when someone does something weird in a run just to see if it works, that run gets a good score and a public log, and then everyone else copies it even though the person who was testing it didn't really think it was all that great.

A top end raider will not use anything just because it is new. They will test anything they think might provide a benefit but that is testing and we are talking about actual use in raids.

Top-end raiders will use it in raids if they find it beneficial or if something about it improves the group. They will not use it in a raid simply because it is new. That is not how top-end raiders do top-end serious raiding.

We are not talking about the meta chasers but the ones who do the actual testing to find out what works best. The rest of us end up calling their results meta.

I literally watched one of the best players in the game do stupid stuff last night because he thought it could be good. But he didn't tell the raid lead ahead of time, he threw a good run, and he got chewed out for it.

A lot of the testing you talk about happens in actual runs, in public logs.

The people who invent the metas are who I usually run with.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

You do not require to subclass now on live so why would you require to subclass then?

Is it for leaderboard pushing? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the vast majority of players don't care even slightly about your score besides what do you even get for being on the scoreboard? an item you probably already have and therefor don't need?

Entaro

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You do not require to subclass now on live so why would you require to subclass then?

You might not require subclasses on live to do X, Y, or Z, but changes like this will enable new cohorts of players to engage with those activities and content that may have been out of reach for them previously, since their baseline damage/healing output, and tankiness with these changes can and will skyrocket.

To be honest I'm not even sure it's a bad thing for the game in general but you can't deny that it's an absolutely massive power spike, as currently implemented on PTS.

sarahthes

Yes

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You do not require to subclass now on live so why would you require to subclass then?

Is it for leaderboard pushing? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the vast majority of players don't care even slightly about your score besides what do you even get for being on the scoreboard? an item you probably already have and therefor don't need?

With subclassing I can run a more efficient trifecta comp that does more damage and requires fewer support setups or pure support classes.

Amottica

sarahthes wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

I agree that I made suggestions when I discovered things to improve the group.

Top-end players will not use subclassing in raids because it is new. They will use it if and only if they can find better performance. Top-end players try different things and tweak their build with the improvements they see. These players couldn't care less about the meta. Well, they are the ones who often define meta.

They'll use it because it's new and because the inherent power increase was something they were already anticipating and theorycrafting when subclassing first leaked a few weeks ago.

It is funny when someone does something weird in a run just to see if it works, that run gets a good score and a public log, and then everyone else copies it even though the person who was testing it didn't really think it was all that great.

A top end raider will not use anything just because it is new. They will test anything they think might provide a benefit but that is testing and we are talking about actual use in raids.

Top-end raiders will use it in raids if they find it beneficial or if something about it improves the group. They will not use it in a raid simply because it is new. That is not how top-end raiders do top-end serious raiding.

We are not talking about the meta chasers but the ones who do the actual testing to find out what works best. The rest of us end up calling their results meta.

I literally watched one of the best players in the game do stupid stuff last night because he thought it could be good. But he didn't tell the raid lead ahead of time, he threw a good run, and he got chewed out for it.

A lot of the testing you talk about happens in actual runs, in public logs.

The people who invent the metas are who I usually run with.

I have known many truly top raiders who test items on dummies before using them in the raid. They make sure the changes work before bringing them into the raid. If you run with the people who find the best builds, many of whom become meta, then you are running with these people.

Sure, there are some who probably do not "think" things through very well and end up doing something rather less than brilliant, as you pointed out, but that is not the norm. The top raid groups would not tolerate reckless behavior for long.

Again, I am talking about the top raid groups. There are a few of those groups at that level on each server.

Ragnarok0130

Yes

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

You do not require to subclass now on live so why would you require to subclass then?

Is it for leaderboard pushing? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the vast majority of players don't care even slightly about your score besides what do you even get for being on the scoreboard? an item you probably already have and therefor don't need?

It's actually "you can't" subclass on live because the system hasn't hit the main live servers yet - it's still on PTS so it's a moot point. If you are doing end game content and subclassing proves to be the META you will have to subclass to remain competitive especially if your raid lead tells you to. Play how you want doesn't exist in end game group content.

My hope is that subclassing will be compatible with the armory system so I can keep subclassing restricted to my raiding armory slots and then go back to a pure class for other content.

Erickson9610

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

My hope is that subclassing will be compatible with the armory system so I can keep subclassing restricted to my raiding armory slots and then go back to a pure class for other content.

Yes, Subclassing is 100% compatible with the Armory.

sarahthes

Yes

Amottica wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

I'd probably ask that they do, but won't specify what setups to run. I do pretty much exclusive HM and trifecta content, so would expect people to sign up to do that with a setup capable of contributing to the content. Top end players aren't going to not use subclassing because it's new and does pretty numbers.

I agree that I made suggestions when I discovered things to improve the group.

Top-end players will not use subclassing in raids because it is new. They will use it if and only if they can find better performance. Top-end players try different things and tweak their build with the improvements they see. These players couldn't care less about the meta. Well, they are the ones who often define meta.

They'll use it because it's new and because the inherent power increase was something they were already anticipating and theorycrafting when subclassing first leaked a few weeks ago.

It is funny when someone does something weird in a run just to see if it works, that run gets a good score and a public log, and then everyone else copies it even though the person who was testing it didn't really think it was all that great.

A top end raider will not use anything just because it is new. They will test anything they think might provide a benefit but that is testing and we are talking about actual use in raids.

Top-end raiders will use it in raids if they find it beneficial or if something about it improves the group. They will not use it in a raid simply because it is new. That is not how top-end raiders do top-end serious raiding.

We are not talking about the meta chasers but the ones who do the actual testing to find out what works best. The rest of us end up calling their results meta.

I literally watched one of the best players in the game do stupid stuff last night because he thought it could be good. But he didn't tell the raid lead ahead of time, he threw a good run, and he got chewed out for it.

A lot of the testing you talk about happens in actual runs, in public logs.

The people who invent the metas are who I usually run with.

I have known many truly top raiders who test items on dummies before using them in the raid. They make sure the changes work before bringing them into the raid. If you run with the people who find the best builds, many of whom become meta, then you are running with these people.

Sure, there are some who probably do not "think" things through very well and end up doing something rather less than brilliant, as you pointed out, but that is not the norm. The top raid groups would not tolerate reckless behavior for long.

Again, I am talking about the top raid groups. There are a few of those groups at that level on each server.

Hard to test how far you can push damage on a tank and still live, on the dummy.

baconaura

Yes

For regular normal/veteran trial content, no one is going to care or even look at the logs unless someone is trolling.

In hardmode/trifecta progression groups, yes, I would expect every competent raid lead doing their job is going to ask the team to be in an optimized setup for the different trial encounters that gives the group the best chance of success and not have people handicapping the team.

In an ideal world, DPS should be expected to be fairly even across the board in trials at like 11-14%. If noone is dying and someone is doing <9% and not in a support role like zk or mk or guardcro, then I think it would be something that other teammates would notice and wondering why they are hitting so much lower, and the raid lead would probably check in with them to see what's going on and help them improve. Be respectful and don't show up to a trial hardmode training run in your battleground setup.

But ya, on the progression teams I'm in, the rules were:
-Be online at least 10 minutes before the run starts, and have full ult and stacked on the door at the start time, ready to go.
-Use proper food and potions
-Use correct traited gear with the correct enchants and golded out.
-Run the appropriate skills with the correct morphs.
-Wear the correct sets that are optimal for the different trial encounters.
-If you don't have the perfected gear, use the regular, but try to farm it, or ask the group to set up some gear runs or connect you with someone who has it curated.

On PC with wizard's wardrobe, this can all be set up ahead of time. On console, I guess you guys have to practice gear change rotation But hopefully you guys get the addons to do this soon, as I think it's one of the big advantages for speed runs that PC has over console.

I guess raid lead could also jail one player and put them in zen/mk/spaulders(probably dont need alkosh anymore if penetration going up) doing stagger/zena/colorless/knife/colo. sorry if they choose you lol.