Subclasses and Problems with Solutions

Credible_Joe

Hello everybody. Wild reveal, huh? I don't think anyone expected any kind of response to class change, which has had vociferous debate around it for years now.

Well, it's around the corner. And while a many of us are delighted that our character freedom has just gone WAY up, most of the more competitive voices here have been less than optimistic. Arguments against this new feature drown out most of the discourse with confident assertions that META will further narrow as everyone zeroes in on the most effective combinations, and that classes will be nerfed to oblivion as balance is frantically applied to a player base full of power gamers intent on exploiting the system as ruthlessly as possible.

And... Sure. Those are things that can happen. In fact, I concede the point that there will definitely be unbalanced strats right out the gate, along with a fairly small META as we suss out what has counters and what doesn't.

But along with that are quite a lot of people presenting the WORST possible solution to that problem as the ONLY possible solution. I'm referring to the notion that class identity will be eliminated as nerfs are applied to tune over performing combinations, compelling competitive players to use those combinations in lieu of a pure class, which will no longer be viable.

I mean, come on. That's just straight up catastrophizing. None of us can think of any more effective ways to balance the META? The PTS isn't even out yet, and we're doomering at the speculation stage with absolute confidence?

How about this instead: A thread where we speculate on balance issues with sub classes along with solutions to those problems that don't involve the death of class identity or a META singularity. Because like it or not, subclasses are on the way. Presenting all the reasons it's awful with no other feedback is too late-- they've announced it, it's a core feature of the next expansion, and repealing it is a dead on arrival proposition.

Besides-- we've already got a head start on feedback: nerfing classes overall in response to balance issues is pretty clearly an unpopular approach. Let's list some alternatives. I'll start.

• Detect when an overperforming combination is used together and nerf JUST that combination
  • Thematic elements can even be applied-- for example, it doesn't make much sense for a templar to be making Faustian bargains. Taking Arcanist class lines as a Templar could weaken both skill sets. Ditto necromancy.
• Alternatively, add a bonus for going pure class. Demonstrate your dedication to your archetype over the dabblers and amateurs.
  • Class passives can give stronger numbers based whether you have a second or third of the same type equipped
  • Class sets are already a thing. We could always add more, as well as add different or dynamic requirements to wearing them or their performance.
    • Require 3 class skill lines to wear class sets
    • Reduce numbers on class sets for each missing skill line
    • Add extra line effects for second and third equipped skill line
• porque no los dos?
  • The overall sentiment to weaken as you dilute your class identity and strengthen as you concentrate it can probably be applied with relatively little adjustment to address the balance concerns overall. The phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

Please, throw some stuff at the wall with me.

valenwood_vegan

Credible_Joe wrote: »

I mean, come on. That's just straight up catastrophizing. None of us can think of any more effective ways to balance the META? The PTS isn't even out yet, and we're doomering at the speculation stage with absolute confidence?

Of course subclassing *can* be balanced properly, and there are all sorts of interesting and clever solutions; the obvious one that jumps out at me is like you mention... as one dilutes their "class identity" or adds skill lines that are in some way "opposed" to their class identity (like mixing a necro and a templar), they would incur various penalties to ensure that various skill and passive combinations don't become OP (as opposed to nerfing the original classes themselves). Class passives could become less effective when one has fewer of the original class skill lines. There could be penalties for stacking three skill lines suited to one role, as opposed to the "normal" mix of the dps, healing, and tank skill lines. Skills from outside your primary class could have increased resource costs, or slight penalties to damage / healing / shields. Lots of possibilities.

But I've been here a while and I've watched for years as zos nerfs with a chainsaw when a scalpel would be appropriate; goes with the easiest, quickest solution (such as making plaguebreak non-functional in pve, instead of adjusting its effect), and makes major combat changes such as hybridization and fails to follow through, instead leaving them unfinished and moving on to the next hot thing.

So I have absolutely zero confidence that they're going to do any better with subclassing. If they even bother balancing it at all, it will be the quick, easy, sledgehammer solution we've seen for years. It will then be left unfinished and issues will not addressed in an acceptable timeframe. I mean when "how is this going to work in pvp" came up in the post-stream, the answer was pretty much just "well we're gonna do it and see how that goes". We've heard that before, lol.

But I mean sure, hopefully I'm wrong?

Estin

I'm not against the idea of subclassing, just the idea of subclassing with no penalty. As it currently stands, subclassing with just one skill line will make you stronger than any pure class. I already gave my thoughts on why it shouldn't be implemented like this and some potential solutions to balance it, so I won't get into it here. Subclassing is going to be free, there's no reason for ZOS to make it enticing by making it overpowered like they did with Necro, Arcanist, and Mythics. They can absolutely introduce real penalties for subclassing before release so it it doesn't break the game, and it will still end up being good instead of niche addition like scribing.

Erickson9610

Estin wrote: »

I'm not against the idea of subclassing, just the idea of subclassing with no penalty. As it currently stands, subclassing with just one skill line will make you stronger than any pure class. I already gave my thoughts on why it shouldn't be implemented like this and some potential solutions to balance it, so I won't get into it here. Subclassing is going to be free, there's no reason for ZOS to make it enticing by making it overpowered like they did with Necro, Arcanist, and Mythics. They can absolutely introduce real penalties for subclassing before release so it it doesn't break the game, and it will still end up being good instead of niche addition like scribing.

Nobody needs Damage Dealing, Healing, and Tanking skill lines at the same time, unless they're a solo player or a PvP player and need to do a little of everything to survive.

What I'm saying is that we should be expected to specialize in a particular role, whether that be damage dealing, healing, or tanking. We should have to replace the two unused skill lines from our base Class to better complement the role we're going to play.

That means that without the ability to deal a lot of damage, heal, and tank simultaneously, we'll actually need dedicated damage dealers, healers, and tanks in content. If anything, Subclassing is reinforcing the need for teamwork in group content, while still giving players the option to be a solo damage dealer, healer, and tank simultaneously, albeit not with the same efficiency as someone who had doubled down on a particular role.

Subclassing is good for this game — for both organized groups and for solo players. Players may start specializing for higher end content, but they're not required to for anything below that.

Estin

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I'm not against the idea of subclassing, just the idea of subclassing with no penalty. As it currently stands, subclassing with just one skill line will make you stronger than any pure class. I already gave my thoughts on why it shouldn't be implemented like this and some potential solutions to balance it, so I won't get into it here. Subclassing is going to be free, there's no reason for ZOS to make it enticing by making it overpowered like they did with Necro, Arcanist, and Mythics. They can absolutely introduce real penalties for subclassing before release so it it doesn't break the game, and it will still end up being good instead of niche addition like scribing.

Nobody needs Damage Dealing, Healing, and Tanking skill lines at the same time, unless they're a solo player or a PvP player and need to do a little of everything to survive.

What I'm saying is that we should be expected to specialize in a particular role, whether that be damage dealing, healing, or tanking. We should have to replace the two unused skill lines from our base Class to better complement the role we're going to play.

That means that without the ability to deal a lot of damage, heal, and tank simultaneously, we'll actually need dedicated damage dealers, healers, and tanks in content. If anything, Subclassing is reinforcing the need for teamwork in group content, while still giving players the option to be a solo damage dealer, healer, and tank simultaneously, albeit not with the same efficiency as someone who had doubled down on a particular role.

Subclassing is good for this game — for both organized groups and for solo players. Players may start specializing for higher end content, but they're not required to for anything below that.

That makes sense if the game wasn't built the way it is currently. As it stands, no one takes healing or defensive skills if they're doing pure damage. Tanks go full defensive and provide debuffs, and healers keep everyone capped at full, shielded for 3x their healthbar, and provide essential buffs. 4 man dungeons are mostly an outlier if you have a good setup because echoing vigor does more work than a healer can do. Subclassing can exist with penalties and still open the same doors it's opening now. The only difference is that the doors aren't going to be blown off their hinges. IMO, subclassing at most should be able to compete with pure classes, not be stronger than them with broken combinations.

SerasWhip

Pessimism is, unfortunately, deeply rooted in this forum.

They were against the alliance change tokens, saying it would be impossible to change your alliance due to the game's inherent mechanics or whatever. Maybe it would break the scales of power in alliance campaigns. And guess what? It happened and didn't break the game.

Some were even against the companion system, and guess what? It didn't break the game.

They said a possible class change token is also impossible, just like the alliance change one, because of technical difficulties and whatnot. There we go, now we have something that is perhaps more complicated and that they pre-emptively dislike more.

Some people are against all forms of change. I am not saying that the changes for this game have always been for the better, but let's not jump the gun before we see what's really happening here. After all, the ability to change class has been a thing a lot of players wanted. It can always be improved if it goes awry.

Cooperharley

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Pixiepumpkin

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

Cooperharley

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

We have literally zero idea about how this affects vengeance lol. Vengeance could require original classes only and not even utilize the subclasses - like I said, why don't we wait for a little more info?

If you want to still use 2/3 of your skill lines to maintain the arcanist feel or necro feel, you can? If you're that attached to the META though, that's just the way you play the game.

Renato90085

In fact, class set can be a way.

Cooperharley

Renato90085 wrote: »

In fact, class set can be a way.

They've already stated that class sets will be maintained as belonging to the original class you choose at the character select screen.

Given that we can now use other skill lines though I WOULD like them to revert their specificity on the class set styles though. I can understand the sets themselves, but the styles will be silly. Lemme use my nightblade class set mask on everyone!

Pixiepumpkin

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

We have literally zero idea about how this affects vengeance lol. Vengeance could require original classes only and not even utilize the subclasses - like I said, why don't we wait for a little more info?

If you want to still use 2/3 of your skill lines to maintain the arcanist feel or necro feel, you can? If you're that attached to the META though, that's just the way you play the game.

You missed the point. The reason people like those classes and Vengeance is due to class identity. You have class identity with Vengeance, Arcanist ETC. I used them as an example.

You do not have class identity with sub-classes, they are literally the antethesis of each other.

Renato90085

Cooperharley wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

In fact, class set can be a way.

They've already stated that class sets will be maintained as belonging to the original class you choose at the character select screen.

Given that we can now use other skill lines though I WOULD like them to revert their specificity on the class set styles though. I can understand the sets themselves, but the styles will be silly. Lemme use my nightblade class set mask on everyone!

Yes,I mean if they buff/nerf class set or class scribe, they can only change this class not all,Pve endgame all think next patch only necro and arc be meta just there class set(necro)and class scribe (arc) is last bis in class
and that not hunt/nerf RP player play they zoo build

Cooperharley

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

We have literally zero idea about how this affects vengeance lol. Vengeance could require original classes only and not even utilize the subclasses - like I said, why don't we wait for a little more info?

If you want to still use 2/3 of your skill lines to maintain the arcanist feel or necro feel, you can? If you're that attached to the META though, that's just the way you play the game.

You missed the point. The reason people like those classes and Vengeance is due to class identity. You have class identity with Vengeance, Arcanist ETC. I used them as an example.

You do not have class identity with sub-classes, they are literally the antethesis of each other.

No, no I read that correctly. I said if you still want to maintain "full class identity," which largely isn't even really present anymore, you can just still use 2 or 3 of your initial class's skill lines. It's about choice. If you're choosing META, that's your choice. If you want 3 different class skill lines that's your choice. It's giving the player their own identity for their character.

Vengeance wasn't just liked because of class identity, it was largely liked because you could jump in without coming up with a FOTM build, fights were significantly larger due to better server stability, you didn't have people ganking like crazy or surviving 20 on 1 fights, there weren't ball groups, etc. It's not the end-all-be-all there.

xXCJsniperXx7

An improvement would be damage type customization. If your a sorc and you pick Ardent Flame to swap with dark magic, it would be fantastic if you have an option to make the flame damage shock instead (poison/physical parallels to). It would be a lot of work with the animations, but the reward would be tremendously valuable.

Tariq9898

It’s too early to tell but as long as Subclasses do NOT replace pure class in terms of performance, then that’s good. Subclasses should just be an extra option.

I don’t want pure classes nerfed just because they’re too OP when paired with another class. This could render the individual class “useless” for those who choose to stay pure. This is especially the case if ZOS wants players to have absolute freedom in their individual build identity.

I should not have to lag behind or be kicked out of the group just because I CHOOSE to tank purely on my DK.

Pixiepumpkin

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

We have literally zero idea about how this affects vengeance lol. Vengeance could require original classes only and not even utilize the subclasses - like I said, why don't we wait for a little more info?

If you want to still use 2/3 of your skill lines to maintain the arcanist feel or necro feel, you can? If you're that attached to the META though, that's just the way you play the game.

You missed the point. The reason people like those classes and Vengeance is due to class identity. You have class identity with Vengeance, Arcanist ETC. I used them as an example.

You do not have class identity with sub-classes, they are literally the antethesis of each other.

No, no I read that correctly. I said if you still want to maintain "full class identity," which largely isn't even really present anymore, you can just still use 2 or 3 of your initial class's skill lines. It's about choice. If you're choosing META, that's your choice. If you want 3 different class skill lines that's your choice. It's giving the player their own identity for their character.

Vengeance wasn't just liked because of class identity, it was largely liked because you could jump in without coming up with a FOTM build, fights were significantly larger due to better server stability, you didn't have people ganking like crazy or surviving 20 on 1 fights, there weren't ball groups, etc. It's not the end-all-be-all there.

You still miss the point. Class identity is not only what you play, but what you see played. If I can't identify the enemies class, then they have lost class identity.

AGAIN, Vengeance was simply an example, an illustration.

QB1

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

ForumBully

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

Cooperharley

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

We have literally zero idea about how this affects vengeance lol. Vengeance could require original classes only and not even utilize the subclasses - like I said, why don't we wait for a little more info?

If you want to still use 2/3 of your skill lines to maintain the arcanist feel or necro feel, you can? If you're that attached to the META though, that's just the way you play the game.

You missed the point. The reason people like those classes and Vengeance is due to class identity. You have class identity with Vengeance, Arcanist ETC. I used them as an example.

You do not have class identity with sub-classes, they are literally the antethesis of each other.

No, no I read that correctly. I said if you still want to maintain "full class identity," which largely isn't even really present anymore, you can just still use 2 or 3 of your initial class's skill lines. It's about choice. If you're choosing META, that's your choice. If you want 3 different class skill lines that's your choice. It's giving the player their own identity for their character.

Vengeance wasn't just liked because of class identity, it was largely liked because you could jump in without coming up with a FOTM build, fights were significantly larger due to better server stability, you didn't have people ganking like crazy or surviving 20 on 1 fights, there weren't ball groups, etc. It's not the end-all-be-all there.

You still miss the point. Class identity is not only what you play, but what you see played. If I can't identify the enemies class, then they have lost class identity.

AGAIN, Vengeance was simply an example, an illustration.

That's fair, but again, back to my point, there is already very little class identity in a game that really shouldn't have even had classes to begin with. They were taking inspiration from WoW to start, which is why we have it rather than being more in line with main-line elder scrolls games. They're shifting more towards player identity than class identity, which I'm in favor of. META will be META regardless of "class identity" and for people that don't chase the META, the game is objectively going to be giving you more freedom and options now, which is how a vast majority of people play whether you or I like it.

I know your vengeance example was an illustration - I was commenting on what you said specifically about it and why I disagreed.

PvP is obviously a different story entirely. In PvE, you don't have to be influenced by META and you can complete a vast majority of it without being META. In PvP you are heavily influenced by it because you are playing against other people directly versus with them. It seems as though, regardless, ZOS is heading in the vengeance route as it's bringing the game back to what it used to be at launch. Large scale battles and simplicity are the name of the game there versus ball groups, lag, small fights with the same 15 people on each side, and annoying-as-all-getout ganking. I imagine they'll obviously keep grey host for people that enjoy that (I dont understand how at this point, but it's w/e) and everyone will have access to the same tools largely.

Pixiepumpkin

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It's pretty typical for this community, especially people on the forums, to get their pitchforks out with any sort of change. It's done every single update. The same people come out in droves, several of which likely don't even play the game much anymore, and doom and gloom.

Let's wait for the PTS shall we? Many of us have been asking for class change tokens for a while and this is truthfully a better alternative IMO.

If you're a META chaser, sure, there will be a most effective trash setup, boss setup, etc. The thing is though, a vast majority of people just play this game casually and what this does is put the game more in line with main line elder scrolls games. If yall are playing this game currently at a high level and think there's class identity still, that's just baffling. Every dps setup minus arcanists with their beams have largely the same feel and setup. There's VERY little class identity as is. What this is doing is given the player more agency and allowing for more player identity in my opinion. It's also a fantastic alternative to those of us that play just one or even a few characters to help with burnout.

I have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps character. I never wanted to start any other characters because I hated the slog of grinding up these annoying skill lines (eg, psijic, antiquities, mages guild, pvp lines since I don't pvp). This will allow me to switch things up here and there as needed to give life to my gameplay when I typically would've just left for another game for a while.

Just like there is now, there are tons of slightly off-META setups that are totally doable and viable and lots of fun UNLESS you are score pushing. The amount of people that are realistically score pushing or doing super high end content is such a small % of the playerbase, you're never going to see balance just for them if you're thinking logically. This is giving everyone else more options to try out the game.

I think, just like with anything, you guys can predict something all you want, but coming in here and saying this is terrible and yada yada yada is silly when we literally haven't even had the chance to get our hands on it. Let's show a little positivity and if you're that burnt out on the game to where every single little thing upsets you or makes you angry, then what are you doing here? I get getting annoyed with balance or lack of updates to things we've been asking for for forever, but this? We haven't even tried it. I'm excited personally.

Now - the season pass monetization and structure is a different story

Except nothing you wrote attacks the very real issue of losing what little class identity we have left.

Necromancer, Arcanist and Vengeance Cyrodill are fun to a massive chunk of the player base due to the fact that real REAL classes exist.

Sub-classes take what little is left of Class identity and destroy it, literally destroy it.

We have literally zero idea about how this affects vengeance lol. Vengeance could require original classes only and not even utilize the subclasses - like I said, why don't we wait for a little more info?

If you want to still use 2/3 of your skill lines to maintain the arcanist feel or necro feel, you can? If you're that attached to the META though, that's just the way you play the game.

You missed the point. The reason people like those classes and Vengeance is due to class identity. You have class identity with Vengeance, Arcanist ETC. I used them as an example.

You do not have class identity with sub-classes, they are literally the antethesis of each other.

No, no I read that correctly. I said if you still want to maintain "full class identity," which largely isn't even really present anymore, you can just still use 2 or 3 of your initial class's skill lines. It's about choice. If you're choosing META, that's your choice. If you want 3 different class skill lines that's your choice. It's giving the player their own identity for their character.

Vengeance wasn't just liked because of class identity, it was largely liked because you could jump in without coming up with a FOTM build, fights were significantly larger due to better server stability, you didn't have people ganking like crazy or surviving 20 on 1 fights, there weren't ball groups, etc. It's not the end-all-be-all there.

You still miss the point. Class identity is not only what you play, but what you see played. If I can't identify the enemies class, then they have lost class identity.

AGAIN, Vengeance was simply an example, an illustration.

That's fair, but again, back to my point, there is already very little class identity in a game that really shouldn't have even had classes to begin with. They were taking inspiration from WoW to start, which is why we have it rather than being more in line with main-line elder scrolls games. They're shifting more towards player identity than class identity, which I'm in favor of. META will be META regardless of "class identity" and for people that don't chase the META, the game is objectively going to be giving you more freedom and options now, which is how a vast majority of people play whether you or I like it.

I know your vengeance example was an illustration - I was commenting on what you said specifically about it and why I disagreed.

PvP is obviously a different story entirely. In PvE, you don't have to be influenced by META and you can complete a vast majority of it without being META. In PvP you are heavily influenced by it because you are playing against other people directly versus with them. It seems as though, regardless, ZOS is heading in the vengeance route as it's bringing the game back to what it used to be at launch. Large scale battles and simplicity are the name of the game there versus ball groups, lag, small fights with the same 15 people on each side, and annoying-as-all-getout ganking. I imagine they'll obviously keep grey host for people that enjoy that (I dont understand how at this point, but it's w/e) and everyone will have access to the same tools largely.

1. There is little class identity and what was left is now gone. Its literally going to be pointless to even have classes. This is not what I signed up for, this is not why I have spent over 3k on this game. The utter destruction of classes ruins immersion to a degree you are going to see a fair amount of people leave the game. Some of the most PRO-ZOS-ESO customers who have played since 2014 have announced this is the final nail.

2. My example was an illustration, your point I have no interest in. So it was moot.

3. 100% disagree. PVE Is easily just as meta IF NOT MORE than PVP. This is showcased on leaderboards. Remember when stamina arcanists were ruling the roost and the class took a massive nerf (that also affected magicka who were literally middle of the pack and the nerf took them to darn near dead last).

So the bottom line is that if one intends to play BG's, they are going to have to forgo their class even more so now for the "meta" and the same goes for vet trials and even vet dungeons. I STILL dont have the worm or beast personality because I cant get into a group because I wont run "meta".

Pixiepumpkin

ForumBully wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

What? The number one thing you want in pvp is to be able to read your opponent and outplay them. Predictability is a MASSIVE part of that.

I can't imagine any PVPer wanting to make their life harder without the ability to read, outplay their opponent.

ForumBully

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

What? The number one thing you want in pvp is to be able to read your opponent and outplay them. Predictability is a MASSIVE part of that.

I can't imagine any PVPer wanting to make their life harder without the ability to read, outplay their opponent.

You can't imagine challenge and adaptation in a fight?

ADarklore

I like the idea of creating MY OWN class identity... which subclassing will now allow me. A person is not forced to use subclassing... so the way I see it, people are complaining about options that they don't have to partake in, but other players (like myself) will absolutely return to ESO because of. I had pretty much written off ESO about a year ago, had no excitement left for the game anymore... and then I heard the news about subclassing and it will definitely bring me back to the game. I left because I was bored. I had so many alts but I'd play one for awhile and get bored, switch to another, same thing... mainly because there were certain skills I loved on classes, but no single class brought them all together for me. Now, I will be able to create my own 'class' with subclassing- and swap them if/when I get bored.

tomofhyrule

QB1 wrote: »

And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you?

This is a major worry people have, because it literally happened with Hybridization.

Sure, you don't have to run a hybrid build. But other people did and showed that it was very strong, so the skills got nerfed. And nerfed. And then a few more nerfs. And at the end, the hybrid build was about where the original builds were, and the non-hybrid builds were in the ground with no sustain, few options for powerful skills, and barely any power remaining.

This is something people are scared of. What if a given class/line combo ends up OP? Fine, the skill gets nerfed so everything's back on one level. And now imagine the person who doesn't want to subclass who just had one of their main skills nerfed, and the only way they can get back up is by being forced to subclass that passive to get the power back.

Is it really a choice if you're coerced into it?

ForumBully

tomofhyrule wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you?

This is a major worry people have, because it literally happened with Hybridization.

Sure, you don't have to run a hybrid build. But other people did and showed that it was very strong, so the skills got nerfed. And nerfed. And then a few more nerfs. And at the end, the hybrid build was about where the original builds were, and the non-hybrid builds were in the ground with no sustain, few options for powerful skills, and barely any power remaining.

This is something people are scared of. What if a given class/line combo ends up OP? Fine, the skill gets nerfed so everything's back on one level. And now imagine the person who doesn't want to subclass who just had one of their main skills nerfed, and the only way they can get back up is by being forced to subclass that passive to get the power back.

Is it really a choice if you're coerced into it?

This is a fair point, and I think a likely scenario. I think anyone would agree that a pure class is going to be outpaced by a subclassed character, day one. PvE or PvP, that's almost a guarantee. So right away, someone who wants to play their way when their way is a pure class is behind the curve. When skills are then being balanced outside the confines of a class tree, it seems likely that top performing skills will be nerfed ...but, isn't it also likely that low performing skills will be improved?
I would bet that many low use skills weren't buffed because of attempts to balance classes rather than individual skills.

Pixiepumpkin

ForumBully wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

What? The number one thing you want in pvp is to be able to read your opponent and outplay them. Predictability is a MASSIVE part of that.

I can't imagine any PVPer wanting to make their life harder without the ability to read, outplay their opponent.

You can't imagine challenge and adaptation in a fight?

It's not about challenge, its about knowing how to fight that class. Each class requires a different approach in combat engagement. This is why PVPers generally play all classes to some degree, its so that they can learn the ins and outs of the class.

There is a fundamental that apparently many on these forums do not understand about game development (yes I have studied it, I am a designer by trade).

Player agency, which is kinda broad but in MMORPG speak is the necessity for a player to be able to control and make decisions while playing the game. In PVP speak what his means is that no one player should have ultimate control over another player. The WOW devs said, I believe over a decade ago that there should be no "hard counters" in game, meaning that any class should be able, if played correctly, should be able to beat their opponent.

This already does not happen in ESO with the way builds work (and PART of the reason so many loved Vengeance).
As bad as it is now, with sub classing, it just gets worse to an unfathomable level.

People already quit BG's or refrain from PVP in ESO due to getting 1 shot, or rather dying inside of a single second. There is no counterplay to that, there is nothing you can do, not even change your build (I have done it, made stupid uber tank builds that were even blown up in 1-2 seconds).

This is in part why sub-classes is an insanely terrible idea (works in single player games, not multiplayer) because any given player will have no clue what they are up against.

Its not about the "challenge", its about having some idea of what you are up against and how to counter them.

The more I ponder on sub classes, the more idiotic I think the idea is. I ponder on the pros and cons and every time come up with the same answer. Its simply a bad design.

ForumBully

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

What? The number one thing you want in pvp is to be able to read your opponent and outplay them. Predictability is a MASSIVE part of that.

I can't imagine any PVPer wanting to make their life harder without the ability to read, outplay their opponent.

You can't imagine challenge and adaptation in a fight?

It's not about challenge, its about knowing how to fight that class. Each class requires a different approach in combat engagement. This is why PVPers generally play all classes to some degree, its so that they can learn the ins and outs of the class.

There is a fundamental that apparently many on these forums do not understand about game development (yes I have studied it, I am a designer by trade).

Player agency, which is kinda broad but in MMORPG speak is the necessity for a player to be able to control and make decisions while playing the game. In PVP speak what his means is that no one player should have ultimate control over another player. The WOW devs said, I believe over a decade ago that there should be no "hard counters" in game, meaning that any class should be able, if played correctly, should be able to beat their opponent.

This already does not happen in ESO with the way builds work (and PART of the reason so many loved Vengeance).
As bad as it is now, with sub classing, it just gets worse to an unfathomable level.

People already quit BG's or refrain from PVP in ESO due to getting 1 shot, or rather dying inside of a single second. There is no counterplay to that, there is nothing you can do, not even change your build (I have done it, made stupid uber tank builds that were even blown up in 1-2 seconds).

This is in part why sub-classes is an insanely terrible idea (works in single player games, not multiplayer) because any given player will have no clue what they are up against.

Its not about the "challenge", its about having some idea of what you are up against and how to counter them.

The more I ponder on sub classes, the more idiotic I think the idea is. I ponder on the pros and cons and every time come up with the same answer. Its simply a bad design.

Well now there's another challenge; determine the subclass skills being used and act accordingly. Personally, I like variety in a fight.

Pixiepumpkin

ForumBully wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

What? The number one thing you want in pvp is to be able to read your opponent and outplay them. Predictability is a MASSIVE part of that.

I can't imagine any PVPer wanting to make their life harder without the ability to read, outplay their opponent.

You can't imagine challenge and adaptation in a fight?

It's not about challenge, its about knowing how to fight that class. Each class requires a different approach in combat engagement. This is why PVPers generally play all classes to some degree, its so that they can learn the ins and outs of the class.

There is a fundamental that apparently many on these forums do not understand about game development (yes I have studied it, I am a designer by trade).

Player agency, which is kinda broad but in MMORPG speak is the necessity for a player to be able to control and make decisions while playing the game. In PVP speak what his means is that no one player should have ultimate control over another player. The WOW devs said, I believe over a decade ago that there should be no "hard counters" in game, meaning that any class should be able, if played correctly, should be able to beat their opponent.

This already does not happen in ESO with the way builds work (and PART of the reason so many loved Vengeance).
As bad as it is now, with sub classing, it just gets worse to an unfathomable level.

People already quit BG's or refrain from PVP in ESO due to getting 1 shot, or rather dying inside of a single second. There is no counterplay to that, there is nothing you can do, not even change your build (I have done it, made stupid uber tank builds that were even blown up in 1-2 seconds).

This is in part why sub-classes is an insanely terrible idea (works in single player games, not multiplayer) because any given player will have no clue what they are up against.

Its not about the "challenge", its about having some idea of what you are up against and how to counter them.

The more I ponder on sub classes, the more idiotic I think the idea is. I ponder on the pros and cons and every time come up with the same answer. Its simply a bad design.

Well now there's another challenge; determine the subclass skills being used and act accordingly. Personally, I like variety in a fight.

But you can not tell the passives. With three class lines being used, you literally can not tell what the class is. its 100% impossible.

And as I said, its not about a challenge. There is a difference between a challenge and being gloibaled by some ridiculous combo that has no counter (which again LITERALLY game design 101: The game must allow for player agency)

ForumBully

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

So tired of seeing the class identity argument. Classes should have never been in the game from the start. And if you still want to play with your original three skill lines, no one is stopping you? And most of these people crying about class identity have skill bars full of weapon skills, fighter's guild, psjic, etc.

As for PvP and being able to identify an enemy's class, how is that fun? Every time I see a warden, sorc, nightblade, DK, etc. I know exactly what they're going to do. How is that fun? I'm actually excited to not know what an enemy is going to be doing for once.

It's definitely weird from a former PvPers perspective to see people advocate for predictability.

What? The number one thing you want in pvp is to be able to read your opponent and outplay them. Predictability is a MASSIVE part of that.

I can't imagine any PVPer wanting to make their life harder without the ability to read, outplay their opponent.

You can't imagine challenge and adaptation in a fight?

It's not about challenge, its about knowing how to fight that class. Each class requires a different approach in combat engagement. This is why PVPers generally play all classes to some degree, its so that they can learn the ins and outs of the class.

There is a fundamental that apparently many on these forums do not understand about game development (yes I have studied it, I am a designer by trade).

Player agency, which is kinda broad but in MMORPG speak is the necessity for a player to be able to control and make decisions while playing the game. In PVP speak what his means is that no one player should have ultimate control over another player. The WOW devs said, I believe over a decade ago that there should be no "hard counters" in game, meaning that any class should be able, if played correctly, should be able to beat their opponent.

This already does not happen in ESO with the way builds work (and PART of the reason so many loved Vengeance).
As bad as it is now, with sub classing, it just gets worse to an unfathomable level.

People already quit BG's or refrain from PVP in ESO due to getting 1 shot, or rather dying inside of a single second. There is no counterplay to that, there is nothing you can do, not even change your build (I have done it, made stupid uber tank builds that were even blown up in 1-2 seconds).

This is in part why sub-classes is an insanely terrible idea (works in single player games, not multiplayer) because any given player will have no clue what they are up against.

Its not about the "challenge", its about having some idea of what you are up against and how to counter them.

The more I ponder on sub classes, the more idiotic I think the idea is. I ponder on the pros and cons and every time come up with the same answer. Its simply a bad design.

Well now there's another challenge; determine the subclass skills being used and act accordingly. Personally, I like variety in a fight.

But you can not tell the passives. With three class lines being used, you literally can not tell what the class is. its 100% impossible.

And as I said, its not about a challenge. There is a difference between a challenge and being gloibaled by some ridiculous combo that has no counter (which again LITERALLY game design 101: The game must allow for player agency)

What? If you recognize the skills you recognize the passives in that tree. Unless you're worried about the player who selects a skill tree with no intention of using a single skill from it.
Anyways...I've been in lots of fights...small group, solo, dueling....I'm not too worried about a mystery passive. Zergs...nothing really matters anyway.

ForumBully

Most of the time if I die in some annoying mystery way, it's due to some set.