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Tank shortage a complete mystery we will never understand…
-
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
5% chance of a fatal error every second? That’s a bad tank. I agree that tank better pray his DD’s kill fast.
Edit note: NVM. I misread. I saw “0.05 as if 1=100%. You said 0.05%, my bad.
But that’s not how the math works. You wouldn’t just add the 0.05 every second.
You would multiply the chance of success every second. 3 seconds would be…..
.9995 * .9995 * .9995 = Chance of success
Not
0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 = chance of failure
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.
It’s also not really how people work. Longer fight times make things harder on a tank because of running out of resources (build, skill, and healer dependent), add buildup (depends on boss and dps’ desire to do mechanics), and fatigue (which increases more if you have to move around or drop block but for a “just stand there and block” fight it won’t really matter). There’s not a consistent flat chance of error nor would I really consider human error to be up to chance.
Tells the same story as intended though, lower dps does make tanking harder. Especially if you’re res parsing as a tank or even doing more than one role’s mechanics at the same time.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 4/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 32/32 HMs - 24/26 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
1 -
Sha'ghor✭
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.Edited by Sha'ghor on April 28, 2025 4:11PM0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.
The problem is you are just making up everything you are saying.
Yes I agree low DPS makes tanking harder. Yes I agree that the longer you have to tank substantial threats the more chance you have to screw up.
But beyond that there is no actual substance to what you are saying. A good tank can tank most things as long as needed, and therefore the group eventually wins.
The exception of course is a hard dps check that auto kills you. Like the ice phase in scalecaller peak final fight.
A good tank can carry bad DD’s. Whether you want to go through that however is a valid question.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
Sha'ghor✭
The only true criterion of truth is practice. Can you show a video, logs or a screenshot of the results of a fight with Zaan, Kjalnar or Blind so that at least one successful attempt lasted more than 20 minutes? This fact will strengthen your position in the dialogue.BejaProphet wrote: »
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.
The problem is you are just making up everything you are saying.
Yes I agree low DPS makes tanking harder. Yes I agree that the longer you have to tank substantial threats the more chance you have to screw up.
But beyond that there is no actual substance to what you are saying. A good tank can tank most things as long as needed, and therefore the group eventually wins.
The exception of course is a hard dps check that auto kills you. Like the ice phase in scalecaller peak final fight.
A good tank can carry bad DD’s. Whether you want to go through that however is a valid question.
And the opposite situation: almost every user on the forum can show a successful fight with high DPS. It is enough to look at any guide on these zones.0 -
mdjessup4906✭✭✭✭I use wild hunt in all the base game vets and on all the trash in dlc ones, along with all the speed cp. Dps struggle to keep up with me.Edited by mdjessup4906 on April 29, 2025 1:27PM1
-
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The only true criterion of truth is practice. Can you show a video, logs or a screenshot of the results of a fight with Zaan, Kjalnar or Blind so that at least one successful attempt lasted more than 20 minutes? This fact will strengthen your position in the dialogue.BejaProphet wrote: »
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.
The problem is you are just making up everything you are saying.
Yes I agree low DPS makes tanking harder. Yes I agree that the longer you have to tank substantial threats the more chance you have to screw up.
But beyond that there is no actual substance to what you are saying. A good tank can tank most things as long as needed, and therefore the group eventually wins.
The exception of course is a hard dps check that auto kills you. Like the ice phase in scalecaller peak final fight.
A good tank can carry bad DD’s. Whether you want to go through that however is a valid question.
And the opposite situation: almost every user on the forum can show a successful fight with high DPS. It is enough to look at any guide on these zones.
We have been plainly talking about dungeons this entire thread. Trials are a different situation.
Further, you have argued that a 9 minute fight is statistically garaunteed wipe. And you demand as counter proof video of vet trial encounter exceeding 20 minutes?
It’s just further demonstration that you are just taking a position and weaving whatever imaginary suppport for it you’d like.
But to restate, it is blatantly true that the worse the DD’s get the harder the tanks job becomes. I’’m definitely not wanting to debate that. It’s true.
My assertion is this: in vet 4 man content, tanks are in a better position to carry the group the any other role.
I run random group finder vet dlc dungeons on every role. When I play tank I almost never find a group I can’t get through the dungeon. Any and every dungeon. When I play either other role, the success is anybodies guess because we NEED a good tank. And I’m not showing up with bad dps when I DD. I do 47k alone on 3 mill dummy with the exact set up I run dungeons with. (Not world class, but enough).
A group can get by with poor DD’s better than they can get by with poor Tanks. (Assuming difficult content).
That’s my assertion.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
Sha'ghor✭
Zaan - last boss from Scalecaller Peak. Kjalnar - last boss from Unhallowed Grave. Blind - last boss from Bedlam Veil. These dungeons 4ppl.BejaProphet wrote: »
The only true criterion of truth is practice. Can you show a video, logs or a screenshot of the results of a fight with Zaan, Kjalnar or Blind so that at least one successful attempt lasted more than 20 minutes? This fact will strengthen your position in the dialogue.BejaProphet wrote: »
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.
The problem is you are just making up everything you are saying.
Yes I agree low DPS makes tanking harder. Yes I agree that the longer you have to tank substantial threats the more chance you have to screw up.
But beyond that there is no actual substance to what you are saying. A good tank can tank most things as long as needed, and therefore the group eventually wins.
The exception of course is a hard dps check that auto kills you. Like the ice phase in scalecaller peak final fight.
A good tank can carry bad DD’s. Whether you want to go through that however is a valid question.
And the opposite situation: almost every user on the forum can show a successful fight with high DPS. It is enough to look at any guide on these zones.
We have been plainly talking about dungeons this entire thread. Trials are a different situation.
Further, you have argued that a 9 minute fight is statistically garaunteed wipe. And you demand as counter proof video of vet trial encounter exceeding 20 minutes?
It’s just further demonstration that you are just taking a position and weaving whatever imaginary suppport for it you’d like.
But to restate, it is blatantly true that the worse the DD’s get the harder the tanks job becomes. I’’m definitely not wanting to debate that. It’s true.
My assertion is this: in vet 4 man content, tanks are in a better position to carry the group the any other role.
I run random group finder vet dlc dungeons on every role. When I play tank I almost never find a group I can’t get through the dungeon. Any and every dungeon. When I play either other role, the success is anybodies guess because we NEED a good tank. And I’m not showing up with bad dps when I DD. I do 47k alone on 3 mill dummy with the exact set up I run dungeons with. (Not world class, but enough).
A group can get by with poor DD’s better than they can get by with poor Tanks. (Assuming difficult content).
That’s my assertion.
When I wrote about 20 minutes, I was reacting to your words about the tank's lack of errors. Okay, maybe not 20 minutes - how long do you consider a long enough period?
47k for alone tank? Please tell me what sets and on what class do you use? I would also like to assemble a tank with high DPS, but I still haven't succeeded.0 -
BejaProphet✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Zaan - last boss from Scalecaller Peak. Kjalnar - last boss from Unhallowed Grave. Blind - last boss from Bedlam Veil. These dungeons 4ppl.BejaProphet wrote: »
The only true criterion of truth is practice. Can you show a video, logs or a screenshot of the results of a fight with Zaan, Kjalnar or Blind so that at least one successful attempt lasted more than 20 minutes? This fact will strengthen your position in the dialogue.BejaProphet wrote: »
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.
The problem is you are just making up everything you are saying.
Yes I agree low DPS makes tanking harder. Yes I agree that the longer you have to tank substantial threats the more chance you have to screw up.
But beyond that there is no actual substance to what you are saying. A good tank can tank most things as long as needed, and therefore the group eventually wins.
The exception of course is a hard dps check that auto kills you. Like the ice phase in scalecaller peak final fight.
A good tank can carry bad DD’s. Whether you want to go through that however is a valid question.
And the opposite situation: almost every user on the forum can show a successful fight with high DPS. It is enough to look at any guide on these zones.
We have been plainly talking about dungeons this entire thread. Trials are a different situation.
Further, you have argued that a 9 minute fight is statistically garaunteed wipe. And you demand as counter proof video of vet trial encounter exceeding 20 minutes?
It’s just further demonstration that you are just taking a position and weaving whatever imaginary suppport for it you’d like.
But to restate, it is blatantly true that the worse the DD’s get the harder the tanks job becomes. I’’m definitely not wanting to debate that. It’s true.
My assertion is this: in vet 4 man content, tanks are in a better position to carry the group the any other role.
I run random group finder vet dlc dungeons on every role. When I play tank I almost never find a group I can’t get through the dungeon. Any and every dungeon. When I play either other role, the success is anybodies guess because we NEED a good tank. And I’m not showing up with bad dps when I DD. I do 47k alone on 3 mill dummy with the exact set up I run dungeons with. (Not world class, but enough).
A group can get by with poor DD’s better than they can get by with poor Tanks. (Assuming difficult content).
That’s my assertion.
When I wrote about 20 minutes, I was reacting to your words about the tank's lack of errors. Okay, maybe not 20 minutes - how long do you consider a long enough period?
47k for alone tank? Please tell me what sets and on what class do you use? I would also like to assemble a tank with high DPS, but I still haven't succeeded.
That’s what I parse on 3mill as DD. I was telling that info so you know I wasn’t crap DD. Because I was saying when I run vet DLC dungeons as a DD, I’m utterly dependent on a tank.
But as I tank I can carry bad DD’s.Royal Poet's Dungeon Tanking Guide https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416797/royal-poets-guide-to-traditional-tanking-in-veteran-dungeons#latest0 -
Sha'ghor✭
47k DPS for a player as a DD is quite a decent result. Not the best, but two such DDs will give 80k+ DPS to the group, which is quite enough to complete any veteran dungeon. As a tank, I want to cry when I apply Major Vulnerability, Major Force, Major Slayer and see the total DPS of two DDs on a pack of trash mobs is 30k.BejaProphet wrote: »
Zaan - last boss from Scalecaller Peak. Kjalnar - last boss from Unhallowed Grave. Blind - last boss from Bedlam Veil. These dungeons 4ppl.BejaProphet wrote: »
The only true criterion of truth is practice. Can you show a video, logs or a screenshot of the results of a fight with Zaan, Kjalnar or Blind so that at least one successful attempt lasted more than 20 minutes? This fact will strengthen your position in the dialogue.BejaProphet wrote: »
My mistake, it should have been calculated using the probability of survival. Let's say so, we leave the initial input data the same: 0.05% fatal error per second of combat, then the probability of a fatal error during combat:BejaProphet wrote: »
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.
A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:BejaProphet wrote: »The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.
Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.
@RebornV3x
I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.
But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%
In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%
Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0005)^60 = 3%
5 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^300 = 13.9%
20 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0005)^1200 = 45.1%
In the case when the probability of a fatal error increases from 0.01% every minute of combat by two times:
1 minute - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60 = 0.598%
2 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60 = 1.784%
3 minutes - 1 - (1-0.0001)^60*(1-0.0002)^60*(1-0.0004)^60 = 4.114%
4 minutes - 8.609%
5 minutes - 16.981%
6 minutes - 31.505%
7 minutes - 53.403%
8 minutes - 78.489%
9 minutes - 95.462%
It's funny, I see about the same ratios in groups when I play as tank or healer.
The problem is you are just making up everything you are saying.
Yes I agree low DPS makes tanking harder. Yes I agree that the longer you have to tank substantial threats the more chance you have to screw up.
But beyond that there is no actual substance to what you are saying. A good tank can tank most things as long as needed, and therefore the group eventually wins.
The exception of course is a hard dps check that auto kills you. Like the ice phase in scalecaller peak final fight.
A good tank can carry bad DD’s. Whether you want to go through that however is a valid question.
And the opposite situation: almost every user on the forum can show a successful fight with high DPS. It is enough to look at any guide on these zones.
We have been plainly talking about dungeons this entire thread. Trials are a different situation.
Further, you have argued that a 9 minute fight is statistically garaunteed wipe. And you demand as counter proof video of vet trial encounter exceeding 20 minutes?
It’s just further demonstration that you are just taking a position and weaving whatever imaginary suppport for it you’d like.
But to restate, it is blatantly true that the worse the DD’s get the harder the tanks job becomes. I’’m definitely not wanting to debate that. It’s true.
My assertion is this: in vet 4 man content, tanks are in a better position to carry the group the any other role.
I run random group finder vet dlc dungeons on every role. When I play tank I almost never find a group I can’t get through the dungeon. Any and every dungeon. When I play either other role, the success is anybodies guess because we NEED a good tank. And I’m not showing up with bad dps when I DD. I do 47k alone on 3 mill dummy with the exact set up I run dungeons with. (Not world class, but enough).
A group can get by with poor DD’s better than they can get by with poor Tanks. (Assuming difficult content).
That’s my assertion.
When I wrote about 20 minutes, I was reacting to your words about the tank's lack of errors. Okay, maybe not 20 minutes - how long do you consider a long enough period?
47k for alone tank? Please tell me what sets and on what class do you use? I would also like to assemble a tank with high DPS, but I still haven't succeeded.
That’s what I parse on 3mill as DD. I was telling that info so you know I wasn’t crap DD. Because I was saying when I run vet DLC dungeons as a DD, I’m utterly dependent on a tank.
But as I tank I can carry bad DD’s.
This is exactly the kind of DPS that is unacceptably low for any serious DLC dungeon and leads to fights lasting more than 20 minutes. I wrote about this low DPS above.0 -
lets talk about bad tank bad dds and bad heal
bad tank: heal has to dps with dds and provide a lot more healin
bad heal: tank and dds have to sustain themselves
bad dds: (by that i mean bad dps) fights are longer if not undoable
that is via the bias of expectations: heals has to buff and preamptive heals, tank has to control the board and take the hits, dds have to dps and tigger some mecs.
so bad tank would be someone who doesnt give other player a sense of control over the challenge (ennemis)
bad heal would be someone who doesnt give other player a feel of might and insurance (or safety/security; confidence (self))
bad dds would be someone who doesnt give the fight the "expected" flow or duration (expectancy buoyancy)
So kids, help me out, how man conflicting situations can we expect from those 3 different failures combined ?
I ll help you out: a lot and the more the many ergo not the merrier it gets. This one says.
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Sallymen✭✭✭✭✭I can tell you a few reasons why there is a tank shortage.
1. Low DPS
- DPS who do not put out decent damage numbers will prolong the dungeon and thus making the tank take more hits than they would like to in a single fight. Take example of Banished Cells 2 final boss where Kinlord Rilis will summon endless daedroths the longer the fight lasts. I have had runs where I tanked up to 15 daedroths and the boss was barely at 50%
2. Underappreciation
- Being a tank in ESO, do not expect appreciation or thanks. I can only recall a handful of times where I am praised for doing my roll. However I can also recall a lot more times where I am rushed, belittled, and blamed if a DPS is right beside me when they die from an enemy cleaves
3. Tank Game Design not fun
- As it stands, being a pure tank isn't fun. There are little damage option besides a very few skills you use to debuff. Unless you spec to s hybrid tank/dps, you ain't gonna be doing much damage and knowing that can annoying to some.
But at the end of the day, the tank shortage in ESO is what I believe to be the fault of the player base. I don't know what happened or who is sticking bad habits to new players but you see brand new low CP players just rushing, pulling mobs, and being stuck in combat longer than it would have taken to kill the mobs.Current Undaunted Key Count: 4,9021 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭If you sign for a dungeon group, then you play as intendet. Thats common curtesy. There is new characters or people who want to learn a role or subclass. They dont have Stam or CP to run like mad. Some even play to play and not for reward or max. farm in min. time. Thats COMMON COURTESY ! Period.
If you want 4dd or 3dd1h then use group finder. But even there some f it up. Speedrun groups who are labled "1ts time slow run" or "lead search" or "releaxed".
Min/max is only ONE of a few gaming approches.
The problem is only the lack of common courtesy and a shipwrecked gaming culture.Edited by mague on July 21, 2025 9:58AM0 -
SolarRune✭✭✭But at the end of the day, the tank shortage in ESO is what I believe to be the fault of the player base. I don't know what happened or who is sticking bad habits to new players but you see brand new low CP players just rushing, pulling mobs, and being stuck in combat longer than it would have taken to kill the mobs.
I do wonder if new players who experiwnce fake role players who justcharge through stuff skipping things teaches them this is the way the game should be played.
I run trials for many people with differing experience levels, and for about a year now I have seen the type of behaviour you mention creeping into the inexperienced trial groups (where it was no where near as big an issue before that).
So I would agree new players seem to becoming accustomed to playing in this way, and it makes for a poor tank experience in all group content.0 -
Yudo✭✭✭✭If its dungeons, I will choose to queue as a DD because I have been in situations were I am stuck on my tank and the DD may be new and it takes an hour to complete something simple. Otherwise as a tank, if my group runs ahead i just swap builds to dd and let them keep aggro, or leave if I don't feel for it. In both those cases, I am willing to tank, but do not enjoy it.
Trials I love to tank, though half of the time I get kicked because of some low hp off meta build. So here I enjoy to tank, but do not get to often.
Overall I prefer to play DD or healer, but end up playing tank the most...so yeah it is some unique dynamic going on here.0 -
Eormenric✭✭✭I can tell you a few reasons why there is a tank shortage.
1. Low DPS
- DPS who do not put out decent damage numbers will prolong the dungeon and thus making the tank take more hits than they would like to in a single fight. Take example of Banished Cells 2 final boss where Kinlord Rilis will summon endless daedroths the longer the fight lasts. I have had runs where I tanked up to 15 daedroths and the boss was barely at 50%
Yeah, when Dps is <20k, that is painful to experience because I can't help but wonder how they are built. It seems like any damage-oriented set and a basic rotation can still net 30k. Honestly, though, I now don't want to tank when the dps is 150k per person. That's just no fun. I'm barely tanking at that point. I'm literally just a taunt and damage soak. Those Arcanists are doing just fine on their own, so I'll leave and feel like part of a team elsewhere.
2. Underappreciation
- Being a tank in ESO, do not expect appreciation or thanks. I can only recall a handful of times where I am praised for doing my roll. However I can also recall a lot more times where I am rushed, belittled, and blamed if a DPS is right beside me when they die from an enemy cleaves
For me, lack of appreciating that I am fulfilling a role is demoralizing. When I'm treated like a party-buffing rock, that is frustrating. "Where's the horn, tank?" "Why no Major [buff], tank?" "Go faster, tank."
3. Tank Game Design not fun
- As it stands, being a pure tank isn't fun. There are little damage option besides a very few skills you use to debuff. Unless you spec to s hybrid tank/dps, you ain't gonna be doing much damage and knowing that can annoying to some.
I think tank game design is too focused on what we can do for the party and never needing to worry about ourselves surviving something. We are not a tank. We are a support. We exist purely to benefit the other roles. I want more demanding moments of blocking, dodging, taunting, and even nuances like timing a brace or having to output a certain amount of damage to survive something. Change up the formula instead of what it is now.
But at the end of the day, the tank shortage in ESO is what I believe to be the fault of the player base. I don't know what happened or who is sticking bad habits to new players but you see brand new low CP players just rushing, pulling mobs, and being stuck in combat longer than it would have taken to kill the mobs.
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Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Eormenric I know it’s not the same as when you *have* to time things well, but you can make tank builds that have the “need to know when to block or dodge” skill curve. My favorite solo rVet tank right now is a templar with jabs and beam. I sure don’t do all that much damage but its fun to pretend and I might actually drop some health and change stuff around to support a more hybrid dps-tank build that’s still capable when played right.
I’ve not suffered a general lack of appreciation aside from nondlc speedrunners (in solo, duo, and trio rVet queue). I’ve found that the talkative players tend to be appreciative of a good tank, especially when they themselves aren’t confident in their abilities. I’m not sure what exactly the formula is that pleases the pugs, but I do go fairly fast, supply major vuln, and talk in group chat, all things that I get annoyed by the lack of in pug tanks.PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Arcanist Healer - Warden Brittleden - Stamarc - Sorc Tank - Necro Tank - Templar Tank - Arcanist Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 4/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 32/32 HMs - 24/26 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
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