Tank shortage a complete mystery we will never understand…

BejaProphet

I’m running vet Arx pledge today, and I’m zipping through incredibly fast. Setting a solid pace for my group. I’m running 37% speed buff and I’m literally using sprint between every single fight. Any time there are encounters close together I’m using ranged taunt as I go through the first stacking them all on second counter. In addition, not to be boastful, but I’m stacking it all with leash quickly. To give you an idea of it if you know the dungeon well, we have lowered the draw bridge and we are crossing it literally in 8 minutes flat. (I do actually know the exact time.)

But half way through the dungeon one of my DDs decide 37% speed buff plus draining my stamina to sprint isn’t good enough. But he can’t actually outrun the pace I’m going. So what does he do to make sure the tank can’t do his job? The guy begins running off before the fights are finished so he beats me to the next group.

I swear, the amount of straight discourtesy shown to tanks in this game baffles the imagination. Most days I would have simply just finished the dungeon. I have a mantra I repeat to myself in such situations. “When you are in the kiddy pool the kids are going to play.” And that’s what vet base game dungeons are, I know. And on easy stuff people are going to act dumb because they can. But for some reason today it just went all over me and I simply dropped group.

Ok rant over. And yes I know this isn’t the primary reason for the tank shortage. But I tell you: it doesn’t help.

JaxontheUnfortunate

Yeah I have stopped running as a tank in pug groups, but will still queue as one since clearly no one wants a properly specced tank in the pug runs these days so why bother.

El_Borracho

Like @JaxontheUnfortunate I used to enjoy tanking in pugs because there were not enough tanks, and tanking base dungeons is super easy. I don't mind skipping adds or running from boss to boss, especially in Maarselok, but what you described is flat out annoying. I don't understand what there would be to gain by leaving one boss fight to go to another boss fight.

I remember thinking it was rude for a tank to leave a struggling group. I still do, but there is no shame or even a second thought to dumping a group like that.

GloatingSwine

Ultimately the dungeon zerg problem is because of backloaded rewards.

Inherently because weapons and jewels only drop from the last boss but also because that's what registers the daily dungeon completion and undaunted challenges.

It's worst in base game dungeons because they have skippable fights and ones off the critical path (and don't even think about the quests where you have to wait or divert, hope you've got a solo build).

It hits tanks the worst because tanks have the least build space to put in movement speed. I just make peace with it, I'll arrive at a fight when I arrive.

BejaProphet

@GloatingSwine well, at the very least every tank should have steeds blessing for 20% boost.

Beyond that I slot celerity and I run a single swift trait on jewelry. So that’s 37% and I’m not sacrificing very much. Beyond that my build manages stamina very well so I feel comfortable sprinting usually. What is sprint? 50% boost? If that’s right I’m moving with 87% speed.

I mean who sees a tank doing that, and quickly stacking and taunting entire rooms and then says to himself…I gotta get ahead of this somehow!

I can’t mentally process that beyond some narcissistic need for the spot light.

GloatingSwine

BejaProphet wrote: »

I mean who sees a tank doing that, and quickly stacking and taunting entire rooms and then says to himself…I gotta get ahead of this somehow!

I can’t mentally process that beyond some narcissistic need for the spot light.

It's not "need for the spotlight".

It's that the only thing in a dungeon that matters is the last boss. Everything else is a runpast, a waste of time to fight because it's not relevant to the reward obtained for the activity.

That's just how they're designed, only the last boss has anything good (and secret bosses more than double the time for the extra reward). The only way to stop that is changing the way rewards for dailies and undaunted keys work to reward full-clears well enough to justify the extra time investment, and maybe spread out the weapons and jewellery so they're not last-boss-only.

Also almost every single game with this sort of content runs into the same problem. People who have done the actual content a thousand times just want to skip to the end and that makes the experience of running with anyone but a preselected group that are all on the same page kinda miserable, especially for new players.

Soarora

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Ultimately the dungeon zerg problem is because of backloaded rewards.

Inherently because weapons and jewels only drop from the last boss but also because that's what registers the daily dungeon completion and undaunted challenges.

It's worst in base game dungeons because they have skippable fights and ones off the critical path (and don't even think about the quests where you have to wait or divert, hope you've got a solo build).

It hits tanks the worst because tanks have the least build space to put in movement speed. I just make peace with it, I'll arrive at a fight when I arrive.

Weapons and jewels can drop from trash enemies, it’s just rare. Perhaps ZOS should increase the drop rate?

Also, tanks being slow is a self fulfilling myth. Tanks are only slow because:
- up to 7% decrease in sprint speed from heavy armor
- If you have bracing anchor and are in combat
- Tanks not wanting to sprint even though they’ll be fine if they do

Don’t wear bracing anchor in a PuG, slot celerity (10% movement speed), slot rapids, and sprint. Tank no longer slow.

BejaProphet

I use bracing anchor. That’s why I run celerity and 1 swift. So I’m normal speed in combat. And when out of combat I have +17 to run to next fight. Works fine.

BejaProphet

Anyways, I think my point is this:

If a tank is making the dungeon take 2-3 times as long, then I can understand doing something to rush him…I’ve done that to tanks before.

But when the tank is going extremely fast, why be a jerk because you think it can go 5% faster? Isn’t there a normal decent impulse in you that says, “hey, not perfect but pretty good for a random group. I can live with it.”

Nestor

These are the same people who start driving faster on a highway because you are going slightly faster and are going to pass them.

El_Borracho

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Ultimately the dungeon zerg problem is because of backloaded rewards.

I would normally agree with this, except this was a veteran pug. Usually those types of shenanigans are relegated to the daily random normal. Arx is a base dungeon, so its easy, but you still need a tank on the last boss. So why rush through the other bosses? Its just dumb.

Soarora

BejaProphet wrote: »

Anyways, I think my point is this:

If a tank is making the dungeon take 2-3 times as long, then I can understand doing something to rush him…I’ve done that to tanks before.

But when the tank is going extremely fast, why be a jerk because you think it can go 5% faster? Isn’t there a normal decent impulse in you that says, “hey, not perfect but pretty good for a random group. I can live with it.”

I agree. If a tank is clearly not sprinting or having any speed buffs, making us wait before every trash pull, then I’m gonna start pulling as a dps. I build my tanks fast like you. If someone does run ahead of me I’ve taken to monologuing about how they’re making things take MORE time because trash won’t be stacked, and I will be slower to get there (I also have bracing anchor on probably), and I won’t be able to swap to boss build so no slayer…

GloatingSwine

El_Borracho wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Ultimately the dungeon zerg problem is because of backloaded rewards.

I would normally agree with this, except this was a veteran pug. Usually those types of shenanigans are relegated to the daily random normal. Arx is a base dungeon, so its easy, but you still need a tank on the last boss. So why rush through the other bosses? Its just dumb.

Because it was an undaunted pledge and the last boss has the keys.

And because it's a base game dungeon even on vet people feel like they can rush.

El_Borracho

GloatingSwine wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Ultimately the dungeon zerg problem is because of backloaded rewards.

I would normally agree with this, except this was a veteran pug. Usually those types of shenanigans are relegated to the daily random normal. Arx is a base dungeon, so its easy, but you still need a tank on the last boss. So why rush through the other bosses? Its just dumb.

Because it was an undaunted pledge and the last boss has the keys.

And because it's a base game dungeon even on vet people feel like they can rush.

But the fact remains that you need a tank for that lass boss on vet, especially if you are doing it on HM for the keys. Its just stupid to rush to that boss without a tank. You'll die.

There are some very easy bosses in there. But rushing to the non-final bosses gets you nothing. This isn't FG1 where you can drag the first boss into the second boss and fight both. I'm not going to blame the game or the rewards for players acting like clowns.

BejaProphet

Well, the thread wasn’t about dragging piles of groups, but since we are talking about it…

That is one behavior that will cause me to leave a group every single time. Now I myself as tank will often tank more than one group at a time. But I can handle -actually tanking them!- I can handle 12-15 and stack them, taunt big threats and a lot more.

But when players train to boss, trailing 30 or so creatures. That I can’t tank. Nobody can.

But here is the thing about it that makes intolerable. The groups who do this don’t expect me to tank them. They expect us to pile up and stack our aoe’s. They want and expect the tank to do precisely nothing. And that’s why I won’t tolerate it. They (without asking), Are choosing to play in a way that erases me from the group. Until finally they want me to block a heavy attack for them.

I won’t tolerate that. I leave immediately every time. Unlike them I’m there because I love tanking dungeons. It’s kept me here for a decade. I’ll pull as much as I can tank, but no more. If they don’t like that then good luck with the group finder.

AvalonRanger

Some IA DPS partner gave me friend invitation when I was tanking at the IA.
But never whisper me for daily dungeon pledge.

AvalonRanger

Tank shortage a complete mystery.....

Oh! yea? Real DPS shortage is more problem for tank main player like me.

AvalonRanger

Honestly say, I'm tired of matching with "24K DPS" or almost 0 damage DPS(too much killed by AoE mech).
So I want to do group contents with guild people or friend actually.

This issue of tank people's complaining make random grouping queue time more longer,
and increasing meeting rate with fake tank.

Amottica

Some of the same reasons I stopped tanking for GF pugs. I used to do it to help the GF players but I got tired of how often GF groups were bad in one way or another.

I was going through Imperial City Prison, and one of the players had never done it before, which also means they were probably fairly new to dungeons. As a courtesy, I told him we would explain the boss fights before starting them. This one DD would hop right in and start the fights when I would start to explain them. I mentioned we were trying to explain the fights to which he expressed he did not care.

I told the group it was either him or me. They should decide who they wanted to stay with. Let's just say his whispers to me were entertaining, to say the least.

I now run exclusively with my guilds. We sometimes queue with just 3 of us to see what we get. Sometimes we are surprised.

It is good to note why tanks avoid using the GF for a random group. For those who are tired of bad experiences with the GF groups or fake tanks I suggest finding an active guild that works for you and your interests. It may take trying multiple guilds, but the time is well worth it.

AvalonRanger

"Tank shortage a complete mystery we will never understand…"

Yesterday, I finished the Vet Exiled Redoubt with my guild people.
Well....combat was quite easy just like doing normal dungeon with decent players.
Zero wipe, big damage, decent healing work, and "no fake tank".

Decent damage amount DPS, Decent Healer, and Real Tank.

50% of PUG people don't have those fundamental aspect, so the combat become "hard mode" even in normal
dungeon. Simply, lack of "education" problem. Even 30% of them don't know basic ESO game rules.

Once I met 100% fake tank who want just monster set in PUG Veteran dungeon.
(I just want "monster set". The dude actually said like that, and complaining against healer
after suck up whole my 30K magika pool only for fake tank healing...(T_T))

Those people should go to golden cat vender of Cyrodiil, just buy monster set by gold,
and don't come to Vet dungeon again.

Tank population never changes, just experienced tank player are tired of doing things with
too much uneducated PUG players.

Kappachi

simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.

Ra'Djit Neuvieme

Well..tank 3000+ cp staying in poison because he can in HM mode expecting DDs to nuke the boss..also standing in poison..implicitly pointing at the healer (me) saying "u cant heal properly"

No, just no. What is this kind of behavior guys ? a gitgut welcome party ? I passed this same boss and harder ones.

Another tank in another dung pointing out unfollowed mecs when he does not taunt tauntable ? I mean. Nope.

And then a tank 'light bringer" explaining to everyone how it works with simplicity. Sticking to mecs..not getting completely perfect because who can ? and just being blatantly nice and patient because he actually knows his stuff=> result => dungeon done ezpz.

Or another...vBRP with a struggling dds and, I, healer also struggling. We passed first boss nothing being said about strats or clearly not something we were used to do. Exceptional ? Wonderfull ? Nope ppl not lying to themselves or others and having a bit of selfawarness in a grp.

Good groove. No one trying to impose his playstyle or tell explicitly or implicitly: hey it goes like this or yeeeeeeer'out ! and if u dont quit its gonna be hell for you.

2 for 2. Its not about being a Tank DDs or Heal, not about the role. Just being decent when playing with others. And yes i cracked a nut because at some point DAMN its irritating.

Daoin

theres the leave group button always available if it feels as though you have been pulled into a pre-made group with an agenda. if you have more than one tank just do the pledge with another until you get a regular vet run. to be honest unless you plan on doing the same pledge on every character for some reason its quite easy to find normally paced group. just hit leave button once not happy. to be fair though i cannot see any circumstance where i would be in a queue with my tank for that specific dungeon nowadays and when i queue for a random daily the day that dungeon is a pledge too my finger is usually on the leave group button before i actually hit the queue button the chances are so high the daily random will be a premade pledge group or just a pledge group and i already know 90% of the time what to expect in there

Ra'Djit Neuvieme

thats pretty much it: press "p" then press "x" .

RebornV3x

The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.

Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.

Soarora

RebornV3x wrote: »

The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.

Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.

If your DPS are really bad, then yes. But the average PuG I experience isn’t actually that bad, part of why is that I keep enemies still and supply appropriate buffs/debuffs. So, tanks aren’t completely helpless— I had a PuG tank for a dungeon and we struggled through until they left and I replaced them with a guildmate tank. The buff/debuffs made a noticeable difference. I find PuGging as DPS more frustrating because a lot of tanks are sooooooo slooowwwww… (and I don’t want to pull before them out of respect, so I have to stand there and wait unless they’re just continuously late to everything).

BejaProphet

RebornV3x wrote: »

The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.

Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.

@RebornV3x

I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.

But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.

I find that if my group fails, it’s 95% of the time that they don’t know mechs on vet DLC dungeons, and seem unable to catch on. 5% of the time it’s DD’s being unable to kill stuff.

DD’s being slower than I’d like is fairly common. But DD’s unable to get through a dungeon in the presence of a great tank is very very rare.

Just my experience though.

Sha'ghor

Kappachi wrote: »

simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.

BejaProphet wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.

Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.

@RebornV3x

I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.

But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.

A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%

In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%

Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.

Madarc

Arx Corinium is a good example. You can often tell in the first few minutes whether the group is going to wipe.
I like to run/tank the vet dungeons very often. In my experience, most of the time it works fastest and smoothest with players who still have relatively few CP points.

They tend to stay together as a group, are more likely to face a boss or mob group as a whole group, and play the dungeon as a group, not as egoists. Accordingly, you can get through the dungeon just as quickly, sometimes even faster and with much more fun with a group playing in this way. Even with hardmode activated (and often previous boss mechanic explanation).
And most of this runs are nodeath. That's not my merit, but that of the group work.

Before start, I always ask if someone wants to do the quest or if it should be a speedrun, if a special piece is needed, check in the first fights, if I might have to switch to a different (more supportive) armor set, and also wait for people who might be lagging behind.
That's my recipe for a successful dungen run, which is also fun for ME as a tank.

In groups (very very often with high cp) in which one or both DDs, also the ‘healer’, ..run off immediately, often before everyone is in the group, requests don't even get an answer, or often an insult instead....I prepare myself to press p and x.

I'd much rather wait patiently for the next group. Chasing after egotists and players without teamwork skills, having to put up with insults no matter how you play and wanting to please everyone... I don't feel like doing that.

I'm a tank and team member, not a replacement for a companion or the kindergarten teacher.

Cooperharley

Yea the problem is if you run as a tank in a normal dungeon, it's so stupidly easy that no one waits for taunting, positioning, grouping, etc. & if you run as a tank in a pug vet dungeon, it's people who have never played the game before and vet fungal grotto 1 takes 1 hour to complete.

A big problem I've always talked about is realistically, the only place enjoyable (potentially) to play as a tank is in group settings because tanks in ESO are about buffing and taunting - they're not made to do any damage and most people will just say "use a DPS setup." Well duh, but if you play any other MMO, tanks are actually fun to use outside of group content as well. Until ZOS makes tanks more enjoyable and doable in a non-group setting as well, i don't see that issue being solved. Along with many other things about introduction to DPS for new players..

BejaProphet

Sha'ghor wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

simple solution: ask your party the pace they want set. i usually dip if a tank speedruns or skips mob packs for instance as healer. I queue dungeons for loot, not to skip all the mobs.

BejaProphet wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

The tank shortage is a problem of ESO design. DPS is the most important role in ESO it doesn't matter how good your supports are if your dps is just bad theres nothing you can do in the moment and your run will fail. I don't tank outside of very specific groups where I know I have good dps. I feel helpless as a tank because once again if you have bad dps it doesn't really matter how good your doing your role you will eventually fail.

Being a good dps you have more control of the dungeon and the pace in most cases as long as the tank lives and holds even the occasional taunt.

@RebornV3x

I don’t find your description to be true typically. Yes it is true that DD’s can be so bad it’s out of your hands. If the combined group damage is 16k dps, then you are just out of luck. And sadly it happens.

But typically, if they even remotely know what they are doing, a strong tank makes all the difference in the world. We have more influence on group success than any role imo.

A simple calculation: let's say the tank's probability of a fatal error in combat is 0.05% per second of combat, and now he is in combat with a difficult boss (Frost Vault, etc.). Depending on the DPS of the group, the duration of the battle may vary, then the probability of a wipe is:
1 minute - 3%
5 minutes - 15%
20 minutes - 60%

In reality, of course, the numbers will be different, since the probability of a fatal error is not a constant value and increases as the tank's fatigue accumulates and the number of mechanics increases. Let's say that at the beginning of the battle the probability of a fatal error is 0.01% and doubles every minute of the battle. Then:
1 minute - 0.6%
5 minutes - 0.6 + 1.2 + 2.4 + 4.8 + 9.6 = 18.6%
6 minutes - 18.6 + 19.2 = 37.8%
7 minutes - 37.8% + 38.4 = 76.2%
8 minutes - 76.2 + 76.8 >100%

Add to this the increase in difficulty due to the death of DD with low DPS and we get wipes already in the second minute. "Nice" party, I encounter this every fifth random.

5% chance of a fatal error every second? That’s a bad tank. I agree that tank better pray his DD’s kill fast.


Edit note: NVM. I misread. I saw “0.05 as if 1=100%. You said 0.05%, my bad.

But that’s not how the math works. You wouldn’t just add the 0.05 every second.

You would multiply the chance of success every second. 3 seconds would be…..

.9995 * .9995 * .9995 = Chance of success

Not

0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05 = chance of failure
Would DRAMATICALLY change your numbers.