"Adventurer in Need" System for dungeon queues

Sallymen

Right now, it seems like there is a huge shortage of tanks or even healers queuing up that leaves very long wait times for DPS. As someone who does all roles, there are times where i get 30 minute queue as DPS, but when I queue as tank it is like instant.

Final Fantasy 14 (I know, I know ew get over it) has a system for queuing up where there is a "adventurer in need" which is basically encourages people to queue up for needed roles for the benefit of getting more XP and rewards.

I really wish this is a system to consider, I know there is also a fake tanking problem but hopefully the rewards will be good enough for people to give real tanking a chance.

DenverRalphy

Sallymen wrote: »

Right now, it seems like there is a huge shortage of tanks or even healers queuing up that leaves very long wait times for DPS. As someone who does all roles, there are times where i get 30 minute queue as DPS, but when I queue as tank it is like instant.

Final Fantasy 14 (I know, I know ew get over it) has a system for queuing up where there is a "adventurer in need" which is basically encourages people to queue up for needed roles for the benefit of getting more XP and rewards.

I really wish this is a system to consider, I know there is also a fake tanking problem but hopefully the rewards will be good enough for people to give real tanking a chance.

There already is such a system to do exactly that. It's called the Random Daily Dungeon.

You choose a role, you get awarded extrs XP and rewards, and you get paired up with a group with an empty slot in their group.

Unfortunataly, the playerbase as a whole has demonstrated an inability to use it for that purpose.

Greystag

I've never played FF14 so I don't know the intricacies of that system, but like DenverRalphy said, the Random dungeon system fulfils a similar purpose by rewarding people who "try out" these needed roles with getting a fast queue and thus faster rewards. It's rocky because while I can definitely see how this added incentive could encourage people to try out the role, I suspect it'd also lead to an increase of people faking it.
An instant queue (and the assurance that we're getting an actual tank) is a good enough incentive for me to queue up as a tank.

Maybe some sort of vote-based honour system where, upon completing the dungeon, the other 3 players are prompted to give you some sort of kudos for performing your role could work? If at least 2 of them vote for you, you're given a higher tier reward. So fake tanks would be encouraged to at least slot a taunt, and healers to slot a couple HoTs.

Just a random brainstorm. I can see this getting frustrating easily though, with people being how they are.

Danikat

Sallymen wrote: »

I really wish this is a system to consider, I know there is also a fake tanking problem but hopefully the rewards will be good enough for people to give real tanking a chance.

How would the reward system encourage people to tank? Unless you're suggesting something much more elaborate than you outlined in your post where the game checks you do things like have a taunt slotted and use it on the boss I don't see how they can reward real tanks and exclude the fake ones.

Otherwise I agree that the random dungeon system is supposed to do exactly what you're suggesting. Everyone knows you get a much faster queue, and therefore faster rewards, if you queue as a tank or healer, that's why people queue as 'fake tanks' but it clearly doesn't persuade everyone because most people are still willing to wait out the DPS queue instead.

sarahthes

Danikat wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

I really wish this is a system to consider, I know there is also a fake tanking problem but hopefully the rewards will be good enough for people to give real tanking a chance.

How would the reward system encourage people to tank? Unless you're suggesting something much more elaborate than you outlined in your post where the game checks you do things like have a taunt slotted and use it on the boss I don't see how they can reward real tanks and exclude the fake ones.

Otherwise I agree that the random dungeon system is supposed to do exactly what you're suggesting. Everyone knows you get a much faster queue, and therefore faster rewards, if you queue as a tank or healer, that's why people queue as 'fake tanks' but it clearly doesn't persuade everyone because most people are still willing to wait out the DPS queue instead.

The reason you get fake tanks is a) because the queue is shorter if you queue as a tank and b) the content doesn't punish you for fake tanking, with very few exceptions.

Fake tanking isn't a problem for normal dungeons 99.99% of the time, even for dlc dungeons.

Danikat

sarahthes wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Sallymen wrote: »

I really wish this is a system to consider, I know there is also a fake tanking problem but hopefully the rewards will be good enough for people to give real tanking a chance.

How would the reward system encourage people to tank? Unless you're suggesting something much more elaborate than you outlined in your post where the game checks you do things like have a taunt slotted and use it on the boss I don't see how they can reward real tanks and exclude the fake ones.

Otherwise I agree that the random dungeon system is supposed to do exactly what you're suggesting. Everyone knows you get a much faster queue, and therefore faster rewards, if you queue as a tank or healer, that's why people queue as 'fake tanks' but it clearly doesn't persuade everyone because most people are still willing to wait out the DPS queue instead.

The reason you get fake tanks is a) because the queue is shorter if you queue as a tank and b) the content doesn't punish you for fake tanking, with very few exceptions.

Fake tanking isn't a problem for normal dungeons 99.99% of the time, even for dlc dungeons.

Yes, that's what I said.

valenwood_vegan

Danikat wrote: »

How would the reward system encourage people to tank? Unless you're suggesting something much more elaborate than you outlined in your post where the game checks you do things like have a taunt slotted and use it on the boss I don't see how they can reward real tanks and exclude the fake ones.

Yeah, and honestly even going through these kinds of checks still won't guarantee a real tank. The players that want to game the system for a fast queue will be *even more* motivated to do so for increased rewards. They could just slot a taunt to pass the check and then remove it once in the dungeon.

So take it even farther and lock skills once the dungeon starts... and even then they can just be a dps with a taunt on their bar but not actually use the taunt. So now we have to check that it's actually used too... but if I just taunt once is that enough? Do I have to be a *really good* tank? Well then we better be testing the dps to make sure they're doing good dps too. So basically this goes down a road of creating more and more complex and elaborate "solutions" to a human behavior problem and leading to various unintended consequences requiring more elaborate solutions.

Actual solutions to this problem do exist though, like learning to tank for oneself... grouping with like-minded people outside of the queue... accepting that many dungeons can easily be completed without a "real" tank and not worrying about it as long as the dungeon is going well... vote kicking a player who is ruining the dungeon... or just leaving and trying again if it's that bad. Random is always going to be random.

Elvenheart

For the first time ever this weekend, I tried WoW’s new npc “follower dungeon” system and I loved it!! My disappointment is that there were only four dungeons listed for me as a level 76 character. I thought there would be more, but maybe the system won’t give you the option if you’ve outleveled the dungeons already? Anyway, this would be the perfect solution to ESO‘s dungeon problem. I chose to have one of the npc followers lead the group through the dungeon. The npc leader was the tank, and she had a shield she would throw to pull mobs that would come back to her. Whenever we got to mobs, she would run slightly ahead and throw her shield, then run back to the group leading the mobs behind her and then we would all destroy them together. The healer always kept me healed, but mobs rarely touched me thanks to the excellent job the NPC tank did keeping aggro . It really felt like I was with other players! If I got too far behind, the rest of the group would stop and wait for me to get within a certain distance before moving on. The only loot given by any of the big bosses was gold, not set pieces, so I guess this is what a player sacrifices by using the NPC follower system in WoW.

This would be perfect as a story mode because it still gave me the achievement for doing the dungeon, and if I had picked up the quest first, I would’ve probably gotten credit for that as well, but in WoW I think you get the quests outside the dungeon after progressing through the story quests up to that point and since I have not started the latest expansion pack that these dungeons were a part of I didn’t have the quest.

I was actually playing through Dragonflight to finally experience the story with a character that had out leveled that expansion by doing the daily anniversary quest during their recent anniversary period that gave a lot of experience just to make it easier because WoW still uses that awful leveled zone design that makes everything in their overland areas such a slog - kill a mob, rest and restore health and mana, kill another mob, rest and restore health and mana, and woe to you if you accidentally pull more than two or three mobs at a time! Thank goodness it’s not like that here in ESO!

TaSheen

Elvenheart wrote: »

For the first time ever this weekend, I tried WoW’s new npc “follower dungeon” system and I loved it!! My disappointment is that there were only four dungeons listed for me as a level 76 character. I thought there would be more, but maybe the system won’t give you the option if you’ve outleveled the dungeons already? Anyway, this would be the perfect solution to ESO‘s dungeon problem. I chose to have one of the npc followers lead the group through the dungeon. The npc leader was the tank, and she had a shield she would throw to pull mobs that would come back to her. Whenever we got to mobs, she would run slightly ahead and throw her shield, then run back to the group leading the mobs behind her and then we would all destroy them together. The healer always kept me healed, but mobs rarely touched me thanks to the excellent job the NPC tank did keeping aggro . It really felt like I was with other players! If I got too far behind, the rest of the group would stop and wait for me to get within a certain distance before moving on. The only loot given by any of the big bosses was gold, not set pieces, so I guess this is what a player sacrifices by using the NPC follower system in WoW.

This would be perfect as a story mode because it still gave me the achievement for doing the dungeon, and if I had picked up the quest first, I would’ve probably gotten credit for that as well, but in WoW I think you get the quests outside the dungeon after progressing through the story quests up to that pointand since I have not started the latest expansion pack that these dungeons were a part of I didn’t have the quest.

I was actually playing through Dragonflight with a character that has out leveled that expansion just to make it easier it because WoW still uses that awful leveled zone design that makes everything in their overland areas such a slog - kill a mob, rest and restore health and mana, kill another mob, rest and restore health and mana… thank goodness it’s not like that here in ESO!

This is virtually what my daughter said when she first tried the Follower Dungeons. She's loving it. It might really work okay here, I don't know as I don't do group content at all any more. She keeps trying to get me back into WoW; ain't hap'nin.

Elvenheart

TaSheen wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

For the first time ever this weekend, I tried WoW’s new npc “follower dungeon” system and I loved it!! My disappointment is that there were only four dungeons listed for me as a level 76 character. I thought there would be more, but maybe the system won’t give you the option if you’ve outleveled the dungeons already? Anyway, this would be the perfect solution to ESO‘s dungeon problem. I chose to have one of the npc followers lead the group through the dungeon. The npc leader was the tank, and she had a shield she would throw to pull mobs that would come back to her. Whenever we got to mobs, she would run slightly ahead and throw her shield, then run back to the group leading the mobs behind her and then we would all destroy them together. The healer always kept me healed, but mobs rarely touched me thanks to the excellent job the NPC tank did keeping aggro . It really felt like I was with other players! If I got too far behind, the rest of the group would stop and wait for me to get within a certain distance before moving on. The only loot given by any of the big bosses was gold, not set pieces, so I guess this is what a player sacrifices by using the NPC follower system in WoW.

This would be perfect as a story mode because it still gave me the achievement for doing the dungeon, and if I had picked up the quest first, I would’ve probably gotten credit for that as well, but in WoW I think you get the quests outside the dungeon after progressing through the story quests up to that pointand since I have not started the latest expansion pack that these dungeons were a part of I didn’t have the quest.

I was actually playing through Dragonflight with a character that has out leveled that expansion just to make it easier it because WoW still uses that awful leveled zone design that makes everything in their overland areas such a slog - kill a mob, rest and restore health and mana, kill another mob, rest and restore health and mana… thank goodness it’s not like that here in ESO!

This is virtually what my daughter said when she first tried the Follower Dungeons. She's loving it. It might really work okay here, I don't know as I don't do group content at all any more. She keeps trying to get me back into WoW; ain't hap'nin.

WoW had pretty much lost me until the Drakthyr race came along with its new classes, and their new really wonderful flight system! My two favorite things in fantasy games are elves and dragons hehe. I tried Dragonflight when it first came out and played through a couple of zones, but the playstyle, almost every request being “collect five stolen totems” or such and such, and the slog that is their overland areas (killing a mob, collecting the item, resting, and then killing another mob for the next item) finally got to me and I decided to wait until I could go through the zone as a higher level character, which I finally did this weekend!

Sadly, I did not see a single other player anywhere in the Dragonflight zones, I assume they’re all in the current expansion zone or in their limited time PVP Plunderstorm event, so it felt like a single player game. Fortunately, since my character was a higher level than the zones I was able to solo the elite mobs that I came across.

And I did try Plunderstorm, it’s basically a very much watered down version of the upcoming experiment in Cyrodiil with some startling differences. Your character did not retain levels between Plunderstorm events, you started an event at level one and slowly leveled throughout the event. You started with no skills, but picked up random skills along the way by killing mobs, and the skills you got really shaped your experience for that event only since they all went away at the end. And you collected a special currency that could only be spent in the Plunderstorm store. After playing a while, I was able to buy two new mounts and several new pets before I got done with it all.

Orbital78

I guess the devs could look at making the companion system better, they don't want them to replace players but it is kind of needed in some situations. That or they need to update the queue system to work better. There are issue if you queue as certain roles in a group or small group they will not fill in groups that need it.

Ilsabet

The reason this works in FFXIV is that jobs (the equivalent of classes) are locked to a particular role, so when you queue with a certain job, you're signing up for that role and going into the dungeon with the tools to do that role. People can still queue as a tank and be terrible at it, but there isn't really any such thing as a fake tank.

As other people have said, in ESO the incentive to be a tank is already there in the form of faster queues, which is why we have fake tanks to begin with. People who want to actually tank will already do so and benefit from the faster queue. Increasing the incentives in the form of extra rewards might make real tanks happier, but it'll also make fake tanking even more attractive, especially as long as there's no in-game counter to fake tanking beyond relying on players to be conscientious.

code65536

You know, back in the day, you could select multiple roles. Your character can tank, dps, or heal? Select all three roles!

Sadly, they removed this years ago and now force you to pick only one. The armory didn't exist back when this feature was around.

I think they really should bring it back, now that the armory system is a thing.

Orbital78

code65536 wrote: »

You know, back in the day, you could select multiple roles. Your character can tank, dps, or heal? Select all three roles!

Sadly, they removed this years ago and now force you to pick only one. The armory didn't exist back when this feature was around.

I think they really should bring it back, now that the armory system is a thing.

As long as they can make it work smoothly this would be great. Especially with normals, most of my toons could do any role.