ESO Should Embrace a Path in 2025

Stamicka · January 11

I think a lot of current dissatisfaction with ESO comes from the fact that the game has never embraced the path it's been on. Whenever the game starts to go in one direction, things rapidly change and take a dramatic shift to another direction. Ultimately this has caused a lot of friction and division within the community and places ZOS in a catch 22 position with almost anything they will do. Current ESO is trying to be too much for too many different types of people.

Early ESO and the PvP Path
Early ESO was a PvP focused game through and through whether people want to admit it or not. The alliance you chose dictated who you could group with and see in the overland zones, skill design and balance used to be centered around PvP, and there honestly wasn't much to do outside of Cyrodiil/IC for endgame in the first years of the game. This seems to be the first major direction change that the game took. Over time the PvP section in patch notes got smaller and smaller, Cyrodiil populations got cut over and over, performance improvement plans were neglected, balance decisions started to be made with PvP as an afterthought, and eventually PvP content stopped getting released completely. PvP quietly kept getting pushed further back on the back burner and ESO lost a very large portion of the people who originally populated the game. Some people will try to say ditching the PvP path saved the game, but I think that if ZOS embraced this path and got performance figured out, ESO would be a thriving PvP game still today. Instead the game shifted to the next path at some point in 2016.

The MMO Path
After the hard PvP focus was ditched, ESO moved to a more general MMO path. We started to see the addition of more trials and more support for endgame group PvE. The release of One Tamriel broke down the alliance barriers that separated players and kept friends from playing with each other. It also got rid of the more linear aspects of the game's progression through the removal of zones being tied to levels. As a whole ESO became more of a cohesive MMO experience with more activities for a wider variety of players to engage with. There were still quite a few areas of difficulty within the game and many incentives to group with friends. It's important to note that PvP wasn't completely ditched in this era, it was just no longer the main focus. This path provided a nice blend of PvP, PvE, and casual activities without making any one group too upset. I think ESO could have also succeeded by leaning into it's MMO elements and staying on this path as well. Eventually however, the MMO elements of the game started to get less support and attention and ESO transitioned to yet a new path. I think we started to see the transition to the next path around the end of 2018 (Summerset year).

The Cozy Game and Solo Quester Path
Once the MMO elements of ESO started to take a back seat, the game seemed to pivot to more of a cozy game path. I personally started to see more focus on housing, year long stories, and the addition of more casual systems. By this point (around the release of Elesweyr), PvP stopped getting new content completely. PvE encounters seemed to be designed to be less difficult as evidenced by Sunspire and Kynes Aegis (non hardmodes). In general we started to see combat adjustments that were meant to make the game easier and a strong embrace of easy, solo friendly content. The feature additions from 2020-2022 were: antiquities, companions, and a card game, all things that give the game a bit more of a casual and cozy feel. While this wasn't what I wanted for the game, it was at least a clear path that seemed pretty successful. Now, it seems we are changing paths once again.

Limbo
At this point, things are kind of a mess. It is very unclear where the game is going. There are many announcements and additions that have seemed contradictory. In the studio directors letter, we were told that we would be getting more difficult overland content (something that the developers used to not budge on whatsoever). Although this would appeal more to me, it's another dramatic direction change from the past few years. It's also more common for me to see balance changes and it's really not clear who those changes are being made for. The addition of a 4v4 competitive Battleground mode was also very bizarre to me. ESO hasn't appealed to the people who would want sweaty 4v4 Battlegrounds for years. As a result, queues take a long time and matches are horribly lopsided because there's not enough people in the high MMR brackets to put against each other. While I understand ZOS tries to occasionally throw a bone to those who have been alienated to keep them around, it seems like most types of players are pretty unsatisfied with recent additions.

Conclusion
ESO needs a cohesive vision and direction moving forward. The constant direction switches have alienated almost all types of players and has resulted in a declining and unsatisfied population. I think that ESO can find a lot of success regardless of the path it takes, it just needs to stick to something so a certain audience has enough time to grow. As things stand though, people are sick of having the rug pulled from under them and the aimless direction of the game. Any game becomes much harder to make content for once the population is made up of the remnants of alienated audiences.

colossalvoids · January 12

By choosing one they're rightfully afraid losing some of us, the players stuck with them in that unknown state where you're just hoping that "the next year surely will be about us as they've said in a letter!" and that's always getting shifted the next year with actual releases and how helpful they are for the health of PvP or endgame PvE.

Vonnegut2506 · January 12

I would argue ZOS has followed the same path for the last two years: overpromise and underdeliver.

AzuraFan · January 12

Stamicka wrote: »

I think a lot of current dissatisfaction with ESO comes from the fact that the game has never embraced the path it's been on. Whenever the game starts to go in one direction, things rapidly change and take a dramatic shift to another direction. Ultimately this has caused a lot of friction and division within the community and places ZOS in a catch 22 position with almost anything they will do. Current ESO is trying to be too much for too many different types of people.

Totally agree. I've said here a few times before that one of the problems with ESO is that ZOS doesn't seem to know who its target audience is, or at least won't stick with one. Try to please everyone and you please no one. What happens is one update will please group A, the next pleases group B but upsets group C, then group B gets goodies again but group A is disappointed. Then group C... ad nauseum.

Right now they seem to be swinging back toward PvP and difficult group content (stuff that the majority of players can't solo) after neglecting it for a while.

I believe the game would be in much better shape if they'd chosen a target audience earlier on and stuck to it. Then they could have focused on one type of player group and really grown that population of players. Maybe they could choose the focus group now, but I think the ideal time for them to do so has passed. Because of the waffling, they've lost players in all groups and it will be difficult to win the focus group back.

Nomadic_Atmoran · January 12

AzuraFan wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think a lot of current dissatisfaction with ESO comes from the fact that the game has never embraced the path it's been on. Whenever the game starts to go in one direction, things rapidly change and take a dramatic shift to another direction. Ultimately this has caused a lot of friction and division within the community and places ZOS in a catch 22 position with almost anything they will do. Current ESO is trying to be too much for too many different types of people.

Totally agree. I've said here a few times before that one of the problems with ESO is that ZOS doesn't seem to know who its target audience is, or at least won't stick with one. Try to please everyone and you please no one. What happens is one update will please group A, the next pleases group B but upsets group C, then group B gets goodies again but group A is disappointed. Then group C... ad nauseum.

Right now they seem to be swinging back toward PvP and difficult group content (stuff that the majority of players can't solo) after neglecting it for a while.

I believe the game would be in much better shape if they'd chosen a target audience earlier on and stuck to it. Then they could have focused on one type of player group and really grown that population of players. Maybe they could choose the focus group now, but I think the ideal time for them to do so has passed. Because of the waffling, they've lost players in all groups and it will be difficult to win the focus group back.

Cultivating a wide ranging group of players with different interests wasn't the problem. Thats natural to MMOs.

I think the upsetting of different groups is just a symptom of the actual problem. They created a vicious cycle of releasing over-tuned gear and items only to eventually nerf them when they had maxed out the possible monetization of said items. That's what ultimately created those divisions within the player base. One group thought it was awesome to squeeze out another 10-20% damage in a Trial while others felt it was undermining older content that wasn't built with that kind of damage in mind. On the PvP side you had players looking for what would make killing others faster and easier while their opponents felt like they had no chance at avoiding/countering it. And for the general community at large that never cared one way or another they just looked forward to that slight bump in damage overall against enemies that made them feel powerful.

The developers had no choice but to focus on nerfing everything but those sets and items because they were largely off limits while the company was making top dollar on them. So developers focused on trying to make surgical nerfs that might work in any other environment but these sets and items could be used by most which made it hard to nail down a fair balance. If one or two particular classes saw larger gains they'd get hit harder. This created tension with players overall because many have favorite classes or their playstyle leans heavily towards particular ones. This game of whack a mole felt like ZOS had no overall direction when in reality it was them constantly putting out fires that was created by the monetization methods.

Add in sweeping nerfs once power creep was out of hand and now you have a massive pushback coming from all sides. No one wants to feel weaker, no one wants to have what they feel they earned taken from them.

The real issue here is that some suit somewhere was more concerned with how many dollars they could milk from set x at the cost of overall stability to the game. Eventually this crawled under the skin of enough players in every subgroup within the community and here we are.

Amottica · January 12

Early ESO was an MMO path. PvP is part of an MMO path and most of the map was PvE zones and dungeons. The raids and an additional PvE zone were almost finished and started releasing within two months of the game's launch.

They picked a path from the start and are still following that track. That is the way of large MMORPGs. They have something for everyone.

Amottica · January 12

colossalvoids wrote: »

By choosing one they're rightfully afraid losing some of us, the players stuck with them in that unknown state where you're just hoping that "the next year surely will be about us as they've said in a letter!" and that's always getting shifted the next year with actual releases and how helpful they are for the health of PvP or endgame PvE.

Exactly, which is why this game had PvP and a lot of different aspects of PvE from the start, it was never one focus, and that is the case with large MMORPGs. Some call them theme park MMOs because of the various activities.

Stamicka · January 13

colossalvoids wrote: »

By choosing one they're rightfully afraid losing some of us, the players stuck with them in that unknown state where you're just hoping that "the next year surely will be about us as they've said in a letter!" and that's always getting shifted the next year with actual releases and how helpful they are for the health of PvP or endgame PvE.

You’re probably right that they are afraid to lose the people who are sticking around, but I think not choosing a path has costed them way more than it’s gotten them.

Stamicka · January 13

Amottica wrote: »

They picked a path from the start and are still following that track. That is the way of large MMORPGs. They have something for everyone.

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to argue that ESO is on the same path it was on in 2014. ESO has definitely changed directions multiple times. You can probably even find interviews of developers talking about how they were taking ESO in a new direction.

Amottica wrote: »

Exactly, which is why this game had PvP and a lot of different aspects of PvE from the start, it was never one focus, and that is the case with large MMORPGs. Some call them theme park MMOs because of the various activities.

Most MMORPGs offer a variety of activities, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t tend to focus on one specific area or audience more. There’s several PvP MMORPGs on the market currently. Yes those games have PvE and other activities, but PvP is a much bigger part of the game which is why they are considered PvP MMOs.

Kyip · January 13

OP's assessment is really good.

Stamicka wrote: »

The Cozy Game and Solo Quester Path
Once the MMO elements of ESO started to take a back seat, the game seemed to pivot to more of a cozy game path. I personally started to see more focus on housing, year long stories, and the addition of more casual systems. By this point (around the release of Elesweyr), PvP stopped getting new content completely. PvE encounters seemed to be designed to be less difficult as evidenced by Sunspire and Kynes Aegis (non hardmodes). In general we started to see combat adjustments that were meant to make the game easier and a strong embrace of easy, solo friendly content. The feature additions from 2020-2022 were: antiquities, companions, and a card game, all things that give the game a bit more of a casual and cozy feel. While this wasn't what I wanted for the game, it was at least a clear path that seemed pretty successful. Now, it seems we are changing paths once again.

I never thought about it like this before, but all this was my favorite period. I've been increasingly dissatisfied with ESO the past two years, but it was so many things, I couldn't point to any one thing. This covers it. Moving away from this vibe, as a theme, has made the game far less enjoyable for me personally.

sarahthes · January 13

Kyip wrote: »

OP's assessment is really good.

Stamicka wrote: »

The Cozy Game and Solo Quester Path
Once the MMO elements of ESO started to take a back seat, the game seemed to pivot to more of a cozy game path. I personally started to see more focus on housing, year long stories, and the addition of more casual systems. By this point (around the release of Elesweyr), PvP stopped getting new content completely. PvE encounters seemed to be designed to be less difficult as evidenced by Sunspire and Kynes Aegis (non hardmodes). In general we started to see combat adjustments that were meant to make the game easier and a strong embrace of easy, solo friendly content. The feature additions from 2020-2022 were: antiquities, companions, and a card game, all things that give the game a bit more of a casual and cozy feel. While this wasn't what I wanted for the game, it was at least a clear path that seemed pretty successful. Now, it seems we are changing paths once again.

I never thought about it like this before, but all this was my favorite period. I've been increasingly dissatisfied with ESO the past two years, but it was so many things, I couldn't point to any one thing. This covers it. Moving away from this vibe, as a theme, has made the game far less enjoyable for me personally.

It's funny how different people have different perspectives. In general, the game feels so much more casual than it did when I started.

Kyip · January 13

sarahthes wrote: »

It's funny how different people have different perspectives. In general, the game feels so much more casual than it did when I started.

Agreed on both things. It still is, overall, compared to early days... but I liked the trend of changes and new systems they had for a few years there. It's going different directions now.

Kyip · January 13

Like, one micro example, for a while all the non-furnishing cosmetics you could get from Cyro & IC were tradeable, which was great for people like me who do not enjoy pvp content. Pvp folks farmed it, sold it, and made gold from people like me who didn't want to touch that content. But the past few years, they keep adding new cosmetics to both places that are only accessible via pvp currency and bind-on-pickup. Including the ones that are really awful to farm, gated behind 20 or 50 of those once-a-day rewards like siege merits (IC) or conquest merits (Cyro), I forget the exact names. Like, there is one skin I badly want from the Cyro cosmetics vendor, the Hircine one... not for the ink, but because it is a skin tone shader. I'd happily pay 10 or 20 million gold so I do not have to go farm Cyro for one conquest board mission a day for 50 days. Instead I'll probably never get it. This is just one trend where they changed course by making things less accessible to everyone, more rewarding for a gated niche demographic, thus less casual/comfy overall. I think it hurts everyone, because the prior system where we could trade the items benefitted everyone. Pvp players had big ticket items they could sell for lots of gold, and I had gold I was happy to give them.

Lags · January 13

Stamicka wrote: »

I think a lot of current dissatisfaction with ESO comes from the fact that the game has never embraced the path it's been on. Whenever the game starts to go in one direction, things rapidly change and take a dramatic shift to another direction. Ultimately this has caused a lot of friction and division within the community and places ZOS in a catch 22 position with almost anything they will do. Current ESO is trying to be too much for too many different types of people.

Early ESO and the PvP Path
Early ESO was a PvP focused game through and through whether people want to admit it or not. The alliance you chose dictated who you could group with and see in the overland zones, skill design and balance used to be centered around PvP, and there honestly wasn't much to do outside of Cyrodiil/IC for endgame in the first years of the game. This seems to be the first major direction change that the game took. Over time the PvP section in patch notes got smaller and smaller, Cyrodiil populations got cut over and over, performance improvement plans were neglected, balance decisions started to be made with PvP as an afterthought, and eventually PvP content stopped getting released completely. PvP quietly kept getting pushed further back on the back burner and ESO lost a very large portion of the people who originally populated the game. Some people will try to say ditching the PvP path saved the game, but I think that if ZOS embraced this path and got performance figured out, ESO would be a thriving PvP game still today. Instead the game shifted to the next path at some point in 2016.

The MMO Path
After the hard PvP focus was ditched, ESO moved to a more general MMO path. We started to see the addition of more trials and more support for endgame group PvE. The release of One Tamriel broke down the alliance barriers that separated players and kept friends from playing with each other. It also got rid of the more linear aspects of the game's progression through the removal of zones being tied to levels. As a whole ESO became more of a cohesive MMO experience with more activities for a wider variety of players to engage with. There were still quite a few areas of difficulty within the game and many incentives to group with friends. It's important to note that PvP wasn't completely ditched in this era, it was just no longer the main focus. This path provided a nice blend of PvP, PvE, and casual activities without making any one group too upset. I think ESO could have also succeeded by leaning into it's MMO elements and staying on this path as well. Eventually however, the MMO elements of the game started to get less support and attention and ESO transitioned to yet a new path. I think we started to see the transition to the next path around the end of 2018 (Summerset year).

The Cozy Game and Solo Quester Path
Once the MMO elements of ESO started to take a back seat, the game seemed to pivot to more of a cozy game path. I personally started to see more focus on housing, year long stories, and the addition of more casual systems. By this point (around the release of Elesweyr), PvP stopped getting new content completely. PvE encounters seemed to be designed to be less difficult as evidenced by Sunspire and Kynes Aegis (non hardmodes). In general we started to see combat adjustments that were meant to make the game easier and a strong embrace of easy, solo friendly content. The feature additions from 2020-2022 were: antiquities, companions, and a card game, all things that give the game a bit more of a casual and cozy feel. While this wasn't what I wanted for the game, it was at least a clear path that seemed pretty successful. Now, it seems we are changing paths once again.

Limbo
At this point, things are kind of a mess. It is very unclear where the game is going. There are many announcements and additions that have seemed contradictory. In the studio directors letter, we were told that we would be getting more difficult overland content (something that the developers used to not budge on whatsoever). Although this would appeal more to me, it's another dramatic direction change from the past few years. It's also more common for me to see balance changes and it's really not clear who those changes are being made for. The addition of a 4v4 competitive Battleground mode was also very bizarre to me. ESO hasn't appealed to the people who would want sweaty 4v4 Battlegrounds for years. As a result, queues take a long time and matches are horribly lopsided because there's not enough people in the high MMR brackets to put against each other. While I understand ZOS tries to occasionally throw a bone to those who have been alienated to keep them around, it seems like most types of players are pretty unsatisfied with recent additions.

Conclusion
ESO needs a cohesive vision and direction moving forward. The constant direction switches have alienated almost all types of players and has resulted in a declining and unsatisfied population. I think that ESO can find a lot of success regardless of the path it takes, it just needs to stick to something so a certain audience has enough time to grow. As things stand though, people are sick of having the rug pulled from under them and the aimless direction of the game. Any game becomes much harder to make content for once the population is made up of the remnants of alienated audiences.

they should have just stuck with their original path. i see things slightly different than you do. I think they were on a pretty solid path, keeping things pretty similar, up until 2020-2021 maybe? Adding in new dungeons and trials is just the natural progression of an mmo like this. I dont think this was ever an mmo hyper focused on pvp, i just think pvp was a part of their design. Or really hyper focused on anything, i think they had a good balance back then.

We had cyrodiil, then IC, then dueling in one tamriel, then bgs in morrowind. Meanwhile getting plenty of pve content, dungeons, trials, new zones, quests, stories, crafting, housing, furnishings, etc. They did a good job. Group content, solo content, the game was beginner friendly, casual friendly, and solo friendly in pve. And had a competitive side, with competitive and end game players that cared. And the community felt good. it felt like an mmo. but the last few years it deff feels like they've been focusing more on making things more like skyrim online.

I dont think they need to hyper focus on one or the other, i just think they need to start trying to make things like an mmo again. Instead of what theyve been doing. And it seems like they're leaning in that direction. There was a place for everyone in 2016 17 18 19, and there can be today was well. Without chasing away long term players.

I think retail wow does a good job with this. It has a place for everyone. Maybe less so in the last couple updates, but even still it does and has for a long time. Even more so if you're counting all of the versions of wow, but im not. im sure plenty of people are unhappy with some things, but you cant say its not a wildly successful mmo. Although i would say a lack of rewards, compared to a game like wow, have always held eso back.

Stamicka · January 13

Lags wrote: »

they should have just stuck with their original path. i see things slightly different than you do. I think they were on a pretty solid path, keeping things pretty similar, up until 2020-2021 maybe? Adding in new dungeons and trials is just the natural progression of an mmo like this. I dont think this was ever an mmo hyper focused on pvp, i just think pvp was a part of their design. Or really hyper focused on anything, i think they had a good balance back then.

We had cyrodiil, then IC, then dueling in one tamriel, then bgs in morrowind. Meanwhile getting plenty of pve content, dungeons, trials, new zones, quests, stories, crafting, housing, furnishings, etc. They did a good job. Group content, solo content, the game was beginner friendly, casual friendly, and solo friendly in pve. And had a competitive side, with competitive and end game players that cared. And the community felt good. it felt like an mmo. but the last few years it deff feels like they've been focusing more on making things more like skyrim online.

I dont think they need to hyper focus on one or the other, i just think they need to start trying to make things like an mmo again. Instead of what theyve been doing. And it seems like they're leaning in that direction. There was a place for everyone in 2016 17 18 19, and there can be today was well. Without chasing away long term players.

I think we are essentially saying the same thing. ESO from 2016-2018 was on the “MMO Path” that I was describing. During this era ESO was being developed as a theme park MMO with activities that could appeal to a wide range of players. Even though the game had broad appeal, focusing on making the game a theme park MMO is a path or focus itself.

I think ESO should have stayed on that path since it still captures a pretty large and diverse audience while still having a clear focus. However, there are many people who like to solo quest and essentially play Skyrim online as you mentioned. Making the game more like Skyrim online is directly opposed to making the game as a theme park MMO. This is because theme park MMOs need some level of challenge, incentives to group, and a variety of activities to engage with. Solo questers tend to not like to group or to explore the game’s more social features like PvP or raids.

At some point in 2019 as you noticed, ZoS changed paths to make the game appeal more to that strictly solo quester crowd and in doing so, left the MMO path since they are opposed to each other. Now however, they’re off of the solo quester path and in limbo. I’m really not sure what they are doing now.

Kyip · January 13

However, there are many people who like to solo quest and essentially play Skyrim online as you mentioned. Making the game more like Skyrim online is directly opposed to making the game as a theme park MMO. This is because theme park MMOs need some level of challenge, incentives to group, and a variety of activities to engage with. Solo questers tend to not like to group or to explore the game’s more social features like PvP or raids.

This is me 100%. Heck, it's lots of people I know in the rp community, also irl friends who play the game. But if we like the Elder Scrolls setting... this is all there is in terms of new content. Like them or not, MMOs are the only way to consistently get new content in a lot of IPs.

Lags · January 13

Stamicka wrote: »

Lags wrote: »

they should have just stuck with their original path. i see things slightly different than you do. I think they were on a pretty solid path, keeping things pretty similar, up until 2020-2021 maybe? Adding in new dungeons and trials is just the natural progression of an mmo like this. I dont think this was ever an mmo hyper focused on pvp, i just think pvp was a part of their design. Or really hyper focused on anything, i think they had a good balance back then.

We had cyrodiil, then IC, then dueling in one tamriel, then bgs in morrowind. Meanwhile getting plenty of pve content, dungeons, trials, new zones, quests, stories, crafting, housing, furnishings, etc. They did a good job. Group content, solo content, the game was beginner friendly, casual friendly, and solo friendly in pve. And had a competitive side, with competitive and end game players that cared. And the community felt good. it felt like an mmo. but the last few years it deff feels like they've been focusing more on making things more like skyrim online.

I dont think they need to hyper focus on one or the other, i just think they need to start trying to make things like an mmo again. Instead of what theyve been doing. And it seems like they're leaning in that direction. There was a place for everyone in 2016 17 18 19, and there can be today was well. Without chasing away long term players.

I think we are essentially saying the same thing. ESO from 2016-2018 was on the “MMO Path” that I was describing. During this era ESO was being developed as a theme park MMO with activities that could appeal to a wide range of players. Even though the game had broad appeal, focusing on making the game a theme park MMO is a path or focus itself.

I think ESO should have stayed on that path since it still captures a pretty large and diverse audience while still having a clear focus. However, there are many people who like to solo quest and essentially play Skyrim online as you mentioned. Making the game more like Skyrim online is directly opposed to making the game as a theme park MMO. This is because theme park MMOs need some level of challenge, incentives to group, and a variety of activities to engage with. Solo questers tend to not like to group or to explore the game’s more social features like PvP or raids.

At some point in 2019 as you noticed, ZoS changed paths to make the game appeal more to that strictly solo quester crowd and in doing so, left the MMO path since they are opposed to each other. Now however, they’re off of the solo quester path and in limbo. I’m really not sure what they are doing now.

Ya i agree, and thats the problem. They didnt have to go in the opposite direction. Like at all. I get what you mean, many people do like skyrim online. But on the other hand, many people like more challenging mmos. Eso always had a good middle ground and unfortunately they went too far in the other direction, but there is still a middle ground to be had if they just try. And it seems like they might be trying.

ESO_Nightingale · January 13

I'm not really replying to the post but if there's one thing I've waited for, for years, it's access to a much more difficult overland and questing experience. I don't have anything against other players who find it challenging but i just want an option to have some fun with my endgame build when questing by having the adds hit harder and also just have a y kind of health at all. I wish they all had at least 3x the health.

colossalvoids · January 13

Stamicka wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

By choosing one they're rightfully afraid losing some of us, the players stuck with them in that unknown state where you're just hoping that "the next year surely will be about us as they've said in a letter!" and that's always getting shifted the next year with actual releases and how helpful they are for the health of PvP or endgame PvE.

You’re probably right that they are afraid to lose the people who are sticking around, but I think not choosing a path has costed them way more than it’s gotten them.

Hard to say about them, but it costed some of us definitely. Limbo and stagnation isn't a fun state to find oneself in and perception of the developers for this game is formed and likely not gonna change and definitely affecting overall enjoyment of the game. One thing it would affect them in particular is that their new project whatever it can be probably won't be given a chance by vast amounts of players already burnt by ESO.

Stamicka · January 13

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm not really replying to the post but if there's one thing I've waited for, for years, it's access to a much more difficult overland and questing experience. I don't have anything against other players who find it challenging but i just want an option to have some fun with my endgame build when questing by having the adds hit harder and also just have a y kind of health at all. I wish they all had at least 3x the health.

I think a lot of people want more difficulty in the game in general (me included). It’s weird that they are finally listening after not budging. This is likely to upset a big portion of the playerbase since the game has been growing a very casual audience. I want ESO to go in this direction, but it’s so different than the current direction and it may shrink the population more.

Kyip · January 13

It will shrink the population more, if it is forced on everyone. They need a normal/veteran toggle for overland content.

Desiato · January 13

I don't think there needs to be an all-in-one-direction approach.

However, I think ZOS should recognize that gamers fall into different categories and it's okay if some parts of the game aren't accessible to all players.

So they should design the PVP aspects of ESO for PVP gamers and not try to make it palatable to single player gamers who play ESO for chapters, for example.

And they should make the PVE end game appealing to fans of MMO PVE end games. This means making it more challenging and investing in MUCH more content with better, more impactful rewards. I'm an oldschool MMO end gamer and I couldn't care less about titles or trifectas. But having the first Donals BP on my server sure meant a lot to me, as did being part of a guild that could be six months ahead of the competition because the content was actually challenging to complete -- as opposed to completing it "perfectly" -- making it exciting.

Both audiences are very large outside of ESO and are a missed opportunity for ZOS. They continuously nerf the PVE and PVP end games to make them easier and more accessible and it only ever results in a temporary increase in engagement because the players they're trying to reach just aren't into those things.

Amottica · January 14

Stamicka wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

They picked a path from the start and are still following that track. That is the way of large MMORPGs. They have something for everyone.

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to argue that ESO is on the same path it was on in 2014. ESO has definitely changed directions multiple times. You can probably even find interviews of developers talking about how they were taking ESO in a new direction.

Amottica wrote: »

Exactly, which is why this game had PvP and a lot of different aspects of PvE from the start, it was never one focus, and that is the case with large MMORPGs. Some call them theme park MMOs because of the various activities.

Most MMORPGs offer a variety of activities, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t tend to focus on one specific area or audience more. There’s several PvP MMORPGs on the market currently. Yes those games have PvE and other activities, but PvP is a much bigger part of the game which is why they are considered PvP MMOs.

The new direction was more about how they would release content. They have remained the same being that they have always been a theme park MMORPG. That is plain as day and I am not arguing anything. Just pointing out the facts.

I am not the only one who has pointed out this simple truth.

Oh, and I do agree that large MMORPGs will focus on one area more than another. It tends to be PvE more than PvP and ESO has always been in that mix. The map of zones at the launch of this game demonstrates that is how it was at launch and not much has changed in that respect ever since then. Considering it took a lot more work to create the zones for one alliance at launch than all of Cyrodiil, we can see where the focus has always been.

MMORPGs rarely do a complete rework and change their focus. The only major MMORPG that has done a major rework, though it did not change its focus, was FF14. Ofc anyone into MMORPGs knows how abysmal their initial launch was.

Northwold · January 14

I think by their nature any MMO that wants to stick around has to offer a variety of activities. Otherwise you will end up only with a fraction of the playerbase who are ultra dedicated to one type of gameplay.

ESO, by its very parentage, is also in a bit of a bind because many players will play it because it is an Elder Scrolls game first and foremost. They expect at least some of that kind of gameplay which is, to coopt a term Amottica used above, somewhat "theme park", do-lots-of-different-things already.

So I think they *have* chosen a path -- jack of all trades -- and my own view is that that is so ingrained in what ESO is that the game would lose, not gain, players by departing from that. With that needs to come shifts in focus year by year.

In an ideal world, the game would be so well-resourced in terms of development staff that every aspect of what ESO is could receive plenty of attention each and every year. But we aren't in an ideal world (and attempts to work on all things at once to a conveyor belt production schedule, without focusing on any specific subject in any specific year, in my opinion has spread the butter thin and contributed to what seems to be the beige-ification of some recent content / the sense of torpor).

I'm not sure if people are aware that some MMOs release expansions literally every two years. ESO has long been an outlier with its really rather rapid, clockwork schedule of content releases.

I think it would be a serious mistake to try to squeeze ESO into one particular niche. Basically, I *don't* think "ESO can find a lot of success regardless of the path it takes." The "do a bit of everything" vibe is what makes ESO ESO and that was what One Tamriel recognised (it's amazing, frankly, that the game wasn't axed in its early days).

In that light I'm largely supportive of the change of approach in the end of year letter, which seemed to be a recognition that they cannot maintain quality if they keep trying to address every single thing at once; that they need to take a staggered approach to different aspects of gameplay. So in that sense a path has been chosen: staggered focus over time.

The proof will be in the pudding.

PS From time to time I make this point but it feels particularly pertinent in this discussion. The forum is not the player base. It is a particular subset of the player base made up of particularly devoted players with the interests of particularly devoted players and I think sometimes we forget that. We are all ESO players, but we are not "the" ESO player, and the players any MMO needs to catch to survive are not players who play four hours every night.

Stamicka · January 14

Desiato wrote: »

I don't think there needs to be an all-in-one-direction approach.

However, I think ZOS should recognize that gamers fall into different categories and it's okay if some parts of the game aren't accessible to all players.

Both audiences are very large outside of ESO and are a missed opportunity for ZOS. They continuously nerf the PVE and PVP end games to make them easier and more accessible and it only ever results in a temporary increase in engagement because the players they're trying to reach just aren't into those things.

What you’re describing is a theme park MMO focus which is what ESO was doing for some time. They recognized that not all things would appeal to every player and they introduced some features that would appeal to the PvPers, the endgame PvErs, the casual questers and so on. 2017 is the best example of this, they added: housing, 2 new zones, 2 new trials, BGs, and a new class. That basically covers most types of players within the game and it worked out fine. Those trials they released were especially difficult for 2017. Even Hodor struggled with vAS +2. A regular complete of vHOF was tough and you could forget TTT. It seemed like then ZoS was ok with the fact that that content was not for everyone.

When they decided to continuously nerf PvP and PvE, that was also them choosing a path and as much as I didn’t like it, they could’ve stuck to that path. As a whole they were making ESO more cozy and solo oriented, departing from the theme park MMO focus. This also meant making everything a bit easier to obtain with less work put in.

You can’t really make a PvP focused MMO, a theme park MMO, and a casual solo friendly MMO all at once. You can have a theme park MMO with PvP and casual systems/quests, but that’s different than a PvP focused game or a casual solo friendly game since those things affect all aspects of the game.

Theme park MMOs have content for a variety of different types of players to keep them all happy. This means that there’s going to be some things the casual will have a hard time doing because it’s meant for the sweaty/competitive types. There’s also some things the sweaty types won’t have much interest in cause it’s meant for more casual people. Making a casual solo friendly MMO is a different story than that. In a casual solo friendly MMO, the majority of content needs to be soloable and nothing can be too out of reach for any player. This sort of game doesn’t really interest competitive players or those who like group content. A PvP focused MMO is an MMO where most of the game revolves around PvP. The game can have PvE in it, but often PvP has a larger presence and it’s almost required or else a player will be missing out on a lot. Think about how Cyrodiil used to give buffs even if you weren’t in the zone. Or imagine if you wanted to be a Stam DPS back when caltrops were essential, but locked behind a significant PvP grind (cause AP gains used to be pretty low). This is kind of different from a theme park game because strict PvErs or casual players won’t like how PvP is almost forced on them. So yea, those 3 focuses can’t coexist and ESO should pick one.

Desiato · January 14

Stamicka wrote: »

They recognized that not all things would appeal to every player and they introduced some features that would appeal to the PvPers, the endgame PvErs, the casual questers and so on. 2017 is the best example of this, they added: housing, 2 new zones, 2 new trials, BGs, and a new class. That basically covers most types of players within the game and it worked out fine. Those trials they released were especially difficult for 2017. Even Hodor struggled with vAS +2. A regular complete of vHOF was tough and you could forget TTT. It seemed like then ZoS was ok with the fact that that content was not for everyone.

I have a completely different take on this. I don't want to argue semantics, especially because these aren't exactly academic terms, but by my definition, ESO is and always has been a theme park MMO with some light emergent aspects.

ESO was originally designed to be the be all and end all of mainstream MMORPGs -- by 2007 standards. It was intended to satisfy casual, core and hardcore gamers; and questers, PVE end gamers and PVP enthusiasts. It wasn't an accident that ZOS was built from Mythic Entertainment veterans. PVP was intended to be a major part of the game.

However, part way through its development, Skyrim happened. And as I've said a lot for a long time, Skyrim changed everything. It was not simply a new chapter in the TES series. It was a sales phenom and one of the best selling games of all time. It introduced TES to the entertainment mainstream. It changed all the expectations for ESO and the team had to adapt on the fly to make it more Skyrim-like.

A major concern expressed by former first gen ESO devs is they felt they were torn between designing an MMO and a single player game. That is the major schism that continues to divide the community.

ESO had a terrible launch which sealed its fate as a sub based MMO. It launched unfinished in many ways with a buggy, imbalanced combat system and missing key features that would slowly be rolled out after launch. So it didn't have a good rep among traditional MMO communities who had much higher expectations and were SICK of unfinished, buggy MMO launches. For its first year, it was a major source of discussion in the old Rerolled forums -- which were a descendent of the old FoH forums, once the epicentre of the greater MMORPG community.

Skyrim fans hated it because it wasn't immersive enough and it was too difficult for them.

So shortly after launch, ZOS began to refactor ESO. They very early formulated the plan that would largely culminate with 1T two years later. They were pretty open about it at the time. Other major pieces would fall into place in the following months, mainly Homestead and the introduction of Chapters with Morrowind. Though those changes happened at the end of 2016 and the start of 2017, they were part of a plan that was executed over the course of years.

From my POV, ZOS has simply refined this approach since then. They have continued to try to make ESO more accessible to get their single player fans into the MMO side of the game by making everything easier for them. It hasn't seemed to work.

I don't think there's any reason why they can't design the PVP aspects of the game for PVP enthusiasts or the PVE end game for PVE end game enthusiasts. They should know by now their approach of nerfing mechanics have not made those things popular among their ultra-casual audience.

Personally, I would call it a missed opportunity. The core combat mechanics are amazing and addictive to gaming enthusiasts and I think AvA and Trials could be extremely popular among their respective audiences outside ESO if they were designed for them instead of Skyrim players.

Necrotech_Master · January 14

my perspective on this:

ive been playing the game since basically launch (about 2 days after launch), and because im more or less a completionist ive taken part in basically all content the game has had to offer since early days (theres a lot of difficult content i havent done yet like trifectas for example)

i remember back in the early days when they introduced craglorn and the craglorn delves were fairly challenging, and in some cases more challenging than the vet dungeons that existed at the time, but i still enjoyed the content

the thing i disliked the most when i started playing was the faction locks in overland, i basically started with aldmeri alliance because thats what my friend had started as, and out of habit all of my characters are aldmeri since then

theres been a many a times i would see in zone or guild chats that some update coming up was gonna "destroy the game" like when they rebalanced some of the dot skills the first time (i hardly noticed a difference on my character, or i actually got a dmg increase from those changes), some more recent changes ive still barely made any adjustements to characters builds unless i was unhappy with the characters to begin with and rebuilt them

i think a lot of players overhype a lot of changes, or read too much into some of them, or people in general seem to be overly cynical about some things

the biggest problem i have with the game right now is the severe lack of curation for gear that comes from BGs and cyro lol

ValandarTheRed · January 14

Personally, if the game focuses on PVP, and ignores PVE, then I'll probably be stepping back away from the game. I hate PVP in any game, and actively avoid games that are PVP focused. It is not fun for me, I don't play games to get one over on somebody out there. I play them to relax from my every day stress. I thoroughly enjoy diving into a Public Dungeon and taking on the bosses, or wandering around different regions mining or wood gathering or what have you.

Also... you think the game is too easy? Nonsense. Just play a lvl 50 / 160+ cp character with white lvl 4 gear. There, difficulty spike. You're welcome.

Necrotech_Master · January 14

ValandarTheRed wrote: »

Personally, if the game focuses on PVP, and ignores PVE, then I'll probably be stepping back away from the game. I hate PVP in any game, and actively avoid games that are PVP focused. It is not fun for me, I don't play games to get one over on somebody out there. I play them to relax from my every day stress. I thoroughly enjoy diving into a Public Dungeon and taking on the bosses, or wandering around different regions mining or wood gathering or what have you.

Also... you think the game is too easy? Nonsense. Just play a lvl 50 / 160+ cp character with white lvl 4 gear. There, difficulty spike. You're welcome.

for people who know the game, even using just white gear is enough to make parts of the game easy, heck most overland stuff can be done basically naked without any armor or weapons

my most recent character, arcanist (made a month or so after their release), was able to solo kill a banner boss in IC sewers at lvl 14 with hodgepodge of random dropped gear and not even the right weapon i wanted to use lol (im not saying it wasnt challenging, but if it takes that to make the game challenging, simply equipping white gear on a max lvl character is not it lol)

Stamicka · January 15

Desiato wrote: »

I don't think there's any reason why they can't design the PVP aspects of the game for PVP enthusiasts or the PVE end game for PVE end game enthusiasts. They should know by now their approach of nerfing mechanics have not made those things popular among their ultra-casual audience.

It is definitely possible to design things both for PvE enthusiasts and PvP enthusiasts. Those are separate things that can easily coexist.

I don’t think a casual solo friendly game and a traditional MMO for PvE and PvP enthusiasts can easily coexist. Those two things don’t mesh well.

Let’s use PvP as an example. PvP is a low skill proc fest where builds do most of the work and when they tried to do a no proc campaign, it was usually dead. Additionally, in PvP it’s pretty common to see players that actively avoid fighting other players in order to siege a keep. People will do whatever they can to avoid combat with another player. So I think all of that points to the fact that most of the people who are PvPing are casual.

So why did they add a 4v4 competitive format for BGs and take away the less competitive 4v4v4? Who is that even for? Most of the actual PvP enthusiasts quit long ago. They typically don’t like the bad balance, watering down of the combat, and low skill PvP. The people still PvPing probably don’t even want to fight other players, and if they do it’s not on even terms like a 4v4 format. They probably want to zerg. So that leaves a very small group of mostly casual PvPers who are maybe just trying things out and the few jaded veteran PvPers who haven’t quit yet in these new BGs. It’s a bad mix. This whole situation is a microcosm of ESO’s direction and what I’m talking about in this post.

It doesn’t work if we have casual PvP and a sweaty PvP format. They don’t mesh well and as we see, these new BGs are not very successful. If they were going to release PvP content it should’ve been more casual, like a smaller version of Cyrodiil or something.

This is a pattern all throughout the game. The year that update 35 came out was the same year vDSR came out. So they released one of the hardest trials ever and then turned around and said “the high end is too far ahead, we want to nerf them and lower the skill gap” basically. So why release vDSR which seemed to be designed FOR the high end. If you’re just going to nerf them and cause them to quit the game anyway, don’t bother releasing that type of trial.

This is the lack of focus and cohesive vision that I’m talking about. You just can’t have both an MMO for the enthusiasts and a casual solo centered game at the same time. Those are different focuses.

Most of our disagreement is on semantics like you said. I need a better word than “theme park MMO” but what I mean is an MMO where the devs basically say “not every feature is meant for every player and that’s ok”. The old ESO devs were more like that. When I say “casual solo oriented MMO” I mean a game where the devs think every player should be able to complete everything and so they try to keep or make the game as easy as possible. Both schools of thought for an MMO can’t coexist and the devs need to choose one. ESO keeps bouncing between these two schools of thoughts and it’s alienating everybody and shrinking the playerbase.

Stamicka · January 15

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

theres been a many a times i would see in zone or guild chats that some update coming up was gonna "destroy the game" like when they rebalanced some of the dot skills the first time (i hardly noticed a difference on my character, or i actually got a dmg increase from those changes), some more recent changes ive still barely made any adjustements to characters builds unless i was unhappy with the characters to begin with and rebuilt them

There have been many updates that have destroyed the game’s combat over time. I don’t think those people were being dramatic. In my view, combat and balance are in a horrible place and it’s from years of these “destroy the game” patches. The DOT patch you are referencing was scalebreaker, we are still dealing with some consequences from that and it was years ago. I think hybridization ultimately destroyed the game’s combat. We still have hybridization. If I listed all the bad changes that have been made, this post would be a massive.