Bound Armaments needs to be buffed

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Drop Quick Cloak and Vibrant Shroud for Hardened and you get a slot for Curse.

Would probably gain both damage and defense at the cost of some movement speed.

Curse is trash now it is mitigated so easily, no point in running it on stamsorc in pvp. What you are saying is to trade two strong skills for one decent and one trash skill on stamsorc.

I'm barely seeing it on magsorcs even, with most just running frags/contingency instead

Curse being AoE damage and also blockable/cleansable just makes it a worse Blastbone now, unironically lol. Blastbone's AI can be dumb sometimes but at least it applies Major + Minor Defile and isn't cleansable.

Jierdanit

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Curse is trash now it is mitigated so easily, no point in running it on stamsorc in pvp. What you are saying is to trade two strong skills for one decent and one trash skill on stamsorc.

Curse is literally top damage on every single one of my StamSorc builds in basically every BG and duel.
(Plus Hardened Ward is easily 30-40%+ of my healing done)

Sure Curse can be blocked but Sorc still has probably the single best (unblockable) CC in the game.

MincMincMinc

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IMO, both should be reworked at the same time. The following changes would solve most of the complaints I have seen (from both sorcs and non-sorcs).

The complaints I've seen:

• too much burst stacked into 1 GCD (common complaint from non-sorcs).
• ward too strong/too easy to build for (common complaint from non-sorcs).
• lack of major prophecy/savagery (long standing complaint of stamsorcs and shieldless magsorcs).
• gives class a sticky DoT for reliable surge procs while kiting (common complaint of sorcs).
• hybridizes BA so it functions for the role instead of max resources (fairly common complaint by sorcs since hybridization).
• prey difficult to maintain due to near frame perfect timing required (common complaint of PvE petsorcs).
• lack of utility, cleave and worthwhile secondary effects (common complaint for non-pet sorcs).

The changes I would like to see done:

• Curse:
  This becomes a single target damage over time ability (similar to entropy). Deals small bonus AoE proc of shock damage when you hit the target with direct shock/physical damage (2 second cooldown) damage done similar to sorc class script).
  With BA becoming the "delayed burst" that is equally useful for both mag and stam sorcs, and frags/weapon still available, there's no need to retain curse as yet another delayed burst when it could easily fill the missing gap of sticky DoT with bonus effects that sorc is lacking in its class kit. The bonus AoE proc is a way to retain the AoE aspect that was recently added to the ability to give sorc some cleave for PvE.
  • Daedric Prey:
    Grants increased pet damage (reduced to around 30% from the current 45% to account for the bonus AoE damage proc) and the bonus AoE tick now procs off pets hitting the afflicted target instead of the caster (same damage and cooldown as base morph). Duration increased to now match haunting curse duration to prevent the DoT from being too bursty.
    Makes this morph easier for pet-sorcs to use without requiring the frame perfect recasts to maintain both pet damage and the delayed burst damage from prey itself.
  • Haunting Curse:
    Also inflicts a debuff on afflicted target that increases shock damage taken by 5% (like DK flame breath, but for shock damage). This bonus to shock damage is doubled for this ability's AoE proc damage.
    Reinforces this morph as the non-pet morph, while also providing a unique buff sorc can bring groups beyond just Atro berserk.
• Bound Armor:
  Max magicka is replaced with Major Prophecy and Major Savagery while slotted on either bar.
  • Bound Aegis:
    Same change as Bound Armor, keeps its minor resolve and minor protection and block mitigation on activation.
    Reinforces this morph as the "tank" morph that is equally useful for all sorcs, not just mag stacking sorcs.
  • Bound Armaments:
    Max stamina replaced with Major Prophecy and Major Savagery. Damage type is based on whichever max resource is higher (physical damage for stamina, shock damage for magicka). Grants 219 (or 1%) Crit chance per stack. Stacks last 30 seconds.
    Reinforces this morph as the DPS morph that is equally useful on any sorc, not just primarily on stamina DPS sorcs.

With this rework also indirectly nerfs Ward. 8% max mag is a big nerf to ward considering it applies to both the shield and the heal (so its a 16% nerf in practice). It is also likely to come with a further 7% nerf to ward due to most sorcs also dropping Inner light from their bars since inner light doubles up on major prophecy/savagery and is extremely inefficient use of bar space. 15% nerf (30% in practice) is massive (note this won't affect sorcs who were scaling ward off max health, since that remains unchanged, so PvE tanks will be unaffected by this change).

I think a big issue with the game right now is zos tying so many buffs to skills that are not active. If you look at the dlc classes this is very prevelant. Necro practically has all unique % modifiers as extra passives on everything. IMO these should either be removed and rethought as actual passives, or they should be timed upon usage of the skill.

What ever happened to a damage skill was a damage skill. People were rewarded for actually doing something and activating skills correctly.

VinnyGambini

StaticWave wrote: »

Hegron wrote: »

If you're considering PvP balance, bound armaments has to be weaker than relentless focus, because of sorcs better brust potential through curse. Both classes also have good single target dps, bad ae dps in PvE and good mobility.
Don't compare just skills, but also the conditions of classes.

Where do you find the bar space for that on Sorc? In PvP you need as many sources of damage and defense buffs as possible without giving up too much of either aspect. I play both NB and Sorc as a melee spec and my bar space on NB is so much better and more efficient. Take a look:

Melee NB:



Versus melee Sorc:



If you compare their bar space, you can see that Sorc's bar setup gives it several important buffs:

Quick Cloak: Major Expedition & Major Evasion
Surge: Major Brutality
Hurricane: Major Resolve & Minor Expedition
Dark Deal: Minor Berserk & Minor Force
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shroud: Major Maim & Minor Vitality
Exploitation: Minor Prophecy


Meanwhile, NB's bar setup gives it these buffs:

Concealed Weapon: Minor Expedition
Powered Extraction: Major Brutality, Minor Courage, & Minor Cowardice
Phantasmal Escape: Major Evasion
Refreshing Path: Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, & Minor Intellect
Healthy Offering: Minor Mending
Cloak: Major Prophecy
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shadow Barrier: Major Resolve
Hemorrhage: Minor Savagery

We can ignore Vigor, Ele Sus, and Quick Cloak because they are universally accessible for all classes. As you can see, NB has access to 11 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Minor debuff via class abilities, whereas Sorc only gets 7 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Major debuff. If you also didn't notice, I don't have any skills providing Major Prophecy on my bar because I simply cannot give up any of those important buffs to make room for Major Prophecy. This means I have to use HP/Mag/Spell Crit potions to get that buff, which also means I lose access to Tri-potions' stam sustain.

I also don't have bar space for Curse or Crystal Frag either because as a melee spec I need Major Expedition and Major Evasion to properly survive in melee range. I'm also not accounting for things like snare immunity, which is extremely important in PvP. I don't have access to a snare immunity despite using Streak, which is a major downside because Streak + Major Expedition isn't going to help me get away in this meta where snares and roots are so prevalent. It's the biggest reason why Warden's Falcon Swiftness is so strong as a movement ability because it provides Major Expedition AND snare/root immunity. It's also why Snow Treaders is so strong because if you can't be slowed/rooted while having decent movement speed, you essentially mitigate a lot of damage from melee attacks.

So please tell me, where exactly can I fit Curse on this bar in Cyrodiil?

Can You please make same comparison to other classes?

Everyone knows NB kit is OP, and you want to sorc kit to be OP as well. Sorc is already way more powerful than any other class, and the gap is like a canyon.

My point is - NB kit needs nerf, sorc kit does not need buff (actually it need huge nerf).

MincMincMinc

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Hegron wrote: »

If you're considering PvP balance, bound armaments has to be weaker than relentless focus, because of sorcs better brust potential through curse. Both classes also have good single target dps, bad ae dps in PvE and good mobility.
Don't compare just skills, but also the conditions of classes.

Where do you find the bar space for that on Sorc? In PvP you need as many sources of damage and defense buffs as possible without giving up too much of either aspect. I play both NB and Sorc as a melee spec and my bar space on NB is so much better and more efficient. Take a look:

Melee NB:



Versus melee Sorc:



If you compare their bar space, you can see that Sorc's bar setup gives it several important buffs:

Quick Cloak: Major Expedition & Major Evasion
Surge: Major Brutality
Hurricane: Major Resolve & Minor Expedition
Dark Deal: Minor Berserk & Minor Force
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shroud: Major Maim & Minor Vitality
Exploitation: Minor Prophecy


Meanwhile, NB's bar setup gives it these buffs:

Concealed Weapon: Minor Expedition
Powered Extraction: Major Brutality, Minor Courage, & Minor Cowardice
Phantasmal Escape: Major Evasion
Refreshing Path: Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, & Minor Intellect
Healthy Offering: Minor Mending
Cloak: Major Prophecy
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shadow Barrier: Major Resolve
Hemorrhage: Minor Savagery

We can ignore Vigor, Ele Sus, and Quick Cloak because they are universally accessible for all classes. As you can see, NB has access to 11 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Minor debuff via class abilities, whereas Sorc only gets 7 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Major debuff. If you also didn't notice, I don't have any skills providing Major Prophecy on my bar because I simply cannot give up any of those important buffs to make room for Major Prophecy. This means I have to use HP/Mag/Spell Crit potions to get that buff, which also means I lose access to Tri-potions' stam sustain.

I also don't have bar space for Curse or Crystal Frag either because as a melee spec I need Major Expedition and Major Evasion to properly survive in melee range. I'm also not accounting for things like snare immunity, which is extremely important in PvP. I don't have access to a snare immunity despite using Streak, which is a major downside because Streak + Major Expedition isn't going to help me get away in this meta where snares and roots are so prevalent. It's the biggest reason why Warden's Falcon Swiftness is so strong as a movement ability because it provides Major Expedition AND snare/root immunity. It's also why Snow Treaders is so strong because if you can't be slowed/rooted while having decent movement speed, you essentially mitigate a lot of damage from melee attacks.

So please tell me, where exactly can I fit Curse on this bar in Cyrodiil?

Can You please make same comparison to other classes?

Everyone knows NB kit is OP, and you want to sorc kit to be OP as well. Sorc is already way more powerful than any other class, and the gap is like a canyon.

My point is - NB kit needs nerf, sorc kit does not need buff (actually it need huge nerf).

You are on something if you dont think warden is outpacing everyone in pvp. I can be on a 50khp warden running 4x damage sets and still heal my entire group with a single button. Its bad enough when we small man instead of 1vX, we all swap off of sorc, nb, and templar to play wardens. We just all prefer to play our 2014 characters out of nostalgia.

What class do you need a comparison for? nb and sorc are the two base dps classes which were already compared above several times.

For my stamsorc vs stamwarden

• Would I ever pick Darkdeal over netch....no, its free basically sustains the same, purges, and gives a unique damage boost
• Would I ever pick curse over beetles.....no, its timed aoe caster controlled that does two of the strongest damage debuffs
• Would I ever pick Ward over Polar.........no, polar does practically the same heals+hot and works on allies just as well
• Crit surge over leeching vines..............no, Leech doesnt require you to build a hard to acquire stat, doesnt require you to be on the offensive, it passively heals you when you need it most.... oh yeah and it works for allies
• Streak vs Bird of Prey..................maybe? The only thing is that bird of prey can't stun. Streak lets you get out of mosh pits, where bird lets you walk freely through them where you want.
• Dbos vs Northern every 30s..........probably still northern, but on warden that is the best part, you can run both! Because northern updates to your frontbar stats.

StaticWave

VinnyGambini wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Hegron wrote: »

If you're considering PvP balance, bound armaments has to be weaker than relentless focus, because of sorcs better brust potential through curse. Both classes also have good single target dps, bad ae dps in PvE and good mobility.
Don't compare just skills, but also the conditions of classes.

Where do you find the bar space for that on Sorc? In PvP you need as many sources of damage and defense buffs as possible without giving up too much of either aspect. I play both NB and Sorc as a melee spec and my bar space on NB is so much better and more efficient. Take a look:

Melee NB:



Versus melee Sorc:



If you compare their bar space, you can see that Sorc's bar setup gives it several important buffs:

Quick Cloak: Major Expedition & Major Evasion
Surge: Major Brutality
Hurricane: Major Resolve & Minor Expedition
Dark Deal: Minor Berserk & Minor Force
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shroud: Major Maim & Minor Vitality
Exploitation: Minor Prophecy


Meanwhile, NB's bar setup gives it these buffs:

Concealed Weapon: Minor Expedition
Powered Extraction: Major Brutality, Minor Courage, & Minor Cowardice
Phantasmal Escape: Major Evasion
Refreshing Path: Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, & Minor Intellect
Healthy Offering: Minor Mending
Cloak: Major Prophecy
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shadow Barrier: Major Resolve
Hemorrhage: Minor Savagery

We can ignore Vigor, Ele Sus, and Quick Cloak because they are universally accessible for all classes. As you can see, NB has access to 11 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Minor debuff via class abilities, whereas Sorc only gets 7 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Major debuff. If you also didn't notice, I don't have any skills providing Major Prophecy on my bar because I simply cannot give up any of those important buffs to make room for Major Prophecy. This means I have to use HP/Mag/Spell Crit potions to get that buff, which also means I lose access to Tri-potions' stam sustain.

I also don't have bar space for Curse or Crystal Frag either because as a melee spec I need Major Expedition and Major Evasion to properly survive in melee range. I'm also not accounting for things like snare immunity, which is extremely important in PvP. I don't have access to a snare immunity despite using Streak, which is a major downside because Streak + Major Expedition isn't going to help me get away in this meta where snares and roots are so prevalent. It's the biggest reason why Warden's Falcon Swiftness is so strong as a movement ability because it provides Major Expedition AND snare/root immunity. It's also why Snow Treaders is so strong because if you can't be slowed/rooted while having decent movement speed, you essentially mitigate a lot of damage from melee attacks.

So please tell me, where exactly can I fit Curse on this bar in Cyrodiil?

Can You please make same comparison to other classes?

Everyone knows NB kit is OP, and you want to sorc kit to be OP as well. Sorc is already way more powerful than any other class, and the gap is like a canyon.

My point is - NB kit needs nerf, sorc kit does not need buff (actually it need huge nerf).

The gap isn’t a canyon. Warden, DK, Templar, Arc, and even Necro can outperform melee Sorc with the right setup.

Durham

END HYBRIDZATION!

MincMincMinc

Durham wrote: »

END HYBRIDZATION!

Hybridization is fine, but they need to hurry up and finish it. They barely touched all of the systems in the game.

I made up a list in another thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671178/the-great-stat-and-standardization-thread

bladenick

It would insane that someone still asking to buff sorc
There an other post in general discussion complain regarding sorc still op in nowday pvp

StaticWave

bladenick wrote: »

It would insane that someone still asking to buff sorc
There an other post in general discussion complain regarding sorc still op in nowday pvp

Magsorc doesn't represent stamsorc

Savagejack

Static makes excellent points. And I did read all of them! At the very least, I'd like Bound Armaments to fire the knives every 0.2 sec to meet their 0.8 standardization. The knives also have low chances of a status effect like a dot even tho they are considered single target strikes. Having this ability grant Major Prophecy/Savagery alone would be lovely and welcome change.