Bound Armaments needs to be buffed

StaticWave

Bound Armaments has been in a weird spot for a long time. It used to provide 8% max stam AND 12% extra damage to heavy attacks. ZOS changed it to 12% extra damage to light attacks several patches later, then ultimately removed it when they reworked light and heavy attack damage.

When you look at Relentless Focus, a very similar skill and probably an inspiration for the design of Bound Armaments, you can see that Relentless Focus provides much better stats:

- 400 weapon/spell damage at full stacks (which Bound Armaments does not have anything equivalent)
- Heal for 33% of damage done within melee range
- You can keep the stacks indefinitely

Bound Armaments currently provides 8% max stam, that's it. That 8% max stam is so much inferior than 400 weapon/spell damage, it's not even a question. Bound Armaments also does not have any 3rd effect, and expires after 10s.

My suggestion for reworking Bound Armaments is to either bring back the 12% extra damage to light attacks, or give it a new 3rd effect. Something like "each stack increases your crit damage by 2% or crit chance by 1.5%" would fit the theme of this class.

MincMincMinc

My solution would be to remove the %stam since sorc already has %stam. Not to mention how max stats are basically useless to build for. There could be a simple buff like major prophecy/savagery which sorc is missing access to. Or go more complicated with a unique stacking buff/debuff.

I do see a problem with Stacking buffs like crit or crit damage per blade stack. Main issue would be that players wont actually use the skill for damage fearing losing the buff. Either a unique debuff like 1k pen per blade would work. Or to make a buff work you'd need to gain the buff upon 4 stacks used. So something like 3% crit per stack used.

---

Sadly I feel at the time they did the stamsorc identity changes they were designed around the "light attack patch" and another standardization pass which was reverted. Which was zos's response to learning after 7 years that new players dont light attack enough and need to learn. Their way to address this was to dumb down combat and make us all count light attacks for "player engagement".

• Crystal Weapon should have been comparable to melee frags instead of a problematic copy and paste of imbue. A cast melee skill like dizzy with a proc stun would make far more sense. Old dizzy was always a stamsorc staple since the movement speed helped with landing the melee cast.
• Bound Armaments stacking off of light attack was too much of poor copy of Relentless Focus as OP pointed out. Stacking off of crit per half second would have played more into stamsorc's build path.

Lystrad

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

ZhuJiuyin

According to this logic, Bound Armaments should provide Critical, because Pressure Points and Hemorrhage provide Critical & Critical Damage.

Hegron

If you're considering PvP balance, bound armaments has to be weaker than relentless focus, because of sorcs better brust potential through curse. Both classes also have good single target dps, bad ae dps in PvE and good mobility.
Don't compare just skills, but also the conditions of classes.

keto3000

...

Major_Mangle

As long as sorc has the most overtuned ranged damage kit in the game I´m gonna say no to a buff to BA. There are very good reasons it was nerfed in the first place. We all remember old bowsorc and how overtuned it was, with or without savage werewolf. I´d be down for a buff to BA if it came with a significant range reduction, or if ranged damage took a damage hit overall.

The skill also needs a bug fix where you can hit targets through LoS if the target is tab-targeted/highlighted.

Turtle_Bot

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

Hegron

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

Then you should also count Rebate and Daedric Protection on sorcs site. It gives a lot of sustain through bound armaments. But i wouldn't count hemorrhage, daedric protection etc. you can get it also through other abilitys.

Vaqual

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

...and only because Energized and Amplitude are in another skill line doesn't mean they shouldn't be factored in. They are fully passive without bar slot allocation requirement. If you make it too easy for yourself the argument appears disingenuous.

Thumbless_Bot

I personally feel like this is a red herring. The reasoning being if you ask for buffs to sorc, maybe they won't nerf it. That's how I'm reading this anyway.

Lystrad

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

I mean I agree with you here, though as a one off passive I think counting hemorrhage is a bit more tricky in the same way that counting expert summoner or daedric protection would be a bit tricky since if you're running more than one skill of that line you aren't necessarily getting it from that specific skill. (on the flip side if that skill is the ONLY skill in that line worth running then it might be worth counting as a benefit, but that's more systemic of a larger issue.)

My point was just that if a class or skill line comes with a passive that effects abilities on an individual basis, like expert mage and pressure points, those abilities should absolutely be considered as part of the abilities power budget.

Turtle_Bot

Vaqual wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

...and only because Energized and Amplitude are in another skill line doesn't mean they shouldn't be factored in. They are fully passive without bar slot allocation requirement. If you make it too easy for yourself the argument appears disingenuous.

I never said they shouldn't be, but by your logic, then the NB passives such as refreshing shadows, master assassin, executioner and catalyst should be factored in as well because all 4 of those passives are fully passive without bar slot allocation requirement.

To quote your comment:

If you make it too easy for yourself the argument appears disingenuous.

Turtle_Bot

Hegron wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

Then you should also count Rebate and Daedric Protection on sorcs site. It gives a lot of sustain through bound armaments. But i wouldn't count hemorrhage, daedric protection etc. you can get it also through other abilitys.

This is my point though, the person I replied to was trying to make the argument that counting passives is a way to say that BA is equal to MR in terms of power budget (at least that was the apparent intention of said comment I replied to), but they only applied that logic to BA and not MR.

Turtle_Bot

Lystrad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

I mean I agree with you here, though as a one off passive I think counting hemorrhage is a bit more tricky in the same way that counting expert summoner or daedric protection would be a bit tricky since if you're running more than one skill of that line you aren't necessarily getting it from that specific skill. (on the flip side if that skill is the ONLY skill in that line worth running then it might be worth counting as a benefit, but that's more systemic of a larger issue.)

My point was just that if a class or skill line comes with a passive that effects abilities on an individual basis, like expert mage and pressure points, those abilities should absolutely be considered as part of the abilities power budget.

I mean sure, counting passives as part of an abilities power budget is fine, but if we are going to go down that route for comparing abilities, we need to ensure we do the same thing for all abilities we are trying to compare, and not just selectively for 1 ability or the other, because doing so for 1 side of the argument and not the other only serves to spread misinformation that is not helpful, nor constructive.

StaticWave

Hegron wrote: »

If you're considering PvP balance, bound armaments has to be weaker than relentless focus, because of sorcs better brust potential through curse. Both classes also have good single target dps, bad ae dps in PvE and good mobility.
Don't compare just skills, but also the conditions of classes.

Where do you find the bar space for that on Sorc? In PvP you need as many sources of damage and defense buffs as possible without giving up too much of either aspect. I play both NB and Sorc as a melee spec and my bar space on NB is so much better and more efficient. Take a look:

Melee NB:



Versus melee Sorc:



If you compare their bar space, you can see that Sorc's bar setup gives it several important buffs:

Quick Cloak: Major Expedition & Major Evasion
Surge: Major Brutality
Hurricane: Major Resolve & Minor Expedition
Dark Deal: Minor Berserk & Minor Force
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shroud: Major Maim & Minor Vitality
Exploitation: Minor Prophecy


Meanwhile, NB's bar setup gives it these buffs:

Concealed Weapon: Minor Expedition
Powered Extraction: Major Brutality, Minor Courage, & Minor Cowardice
Phantasmal Escape: Major Evasion
Refreshing Path: Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, & Minor Intellect
Healthy Offering: Minor Mending
Cloak: Major Prophecy
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shadow Barrier: Major Resolve
Hemorrhage: Minor Savagery

We can ignore Vigor, Ele Sus, and Quick Cloak because they are universally accessible for all classes. As you can see, NB has access to 11 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Minor debuff via class abilities, whereas Sorc only gets 7 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Major debuff. If you also didn't notice, I don't have any skills providing Major Prophecy on my bar because I simply cannot give up any of those important buffs to make room for Major Prophecy. This means I have to use HP/Mag/Spell Crit potions to get that buff, which also means I lose access to Tri-potions' stam sustain.

I also don't have bar space for Curse or Crystal Frag either because as a melee spec I need Major Expedition and Major Evasion to properly survive in melee range. I'm also not accounting for things like snare immunity, which is extremely important in PvP. I don't have access to a snare immunity despite using Streak, which is a major downside because Streak + Major Expedition isn't going to help me get away in this meta where snares and roots are so prevalent. It's the biggest reason why Warden's Falcon Swiftness is so strong as a movement ability because it provides Major Expedition AND snare/root immunity. It's also why Snow Treaders is so strong because if you can't be slowed/rooted while having decent movement speed, you essentially mitigate a lot of damage from melee attacks.

So please tell me, where exactly can I fit Curse on this bar in Cyrodiil?

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

Hegron wrote: »

If you're considering PvP balance, bound armaments has to be weaker than relentless focus, because of sorcs better brust potential through curse. Both classes also have good single target dps, bad ae dps in PvE and good mobility.
Don't compare just skills, but also the conditions of classes.

Where do you find the bar space for that on Sorc? In PvP you need as many sources of damage and defense buffs as possible. I play both NB and Sorc as a melee spec and my bar space on NB is so much better and more efficient. Take a look:

Melee NB:



Versus melee Sorc:



If you compare their bar space, you can see that Sorc's bar setup gives it several important buffs:

Quick Cloak: Major Expedition & Major Evasion
Surge: Major Brutality
Hurricane: Major Resolve & Minor Expedition
Dark Deal: Minor Berserk & Minor Force
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shroud: Major Maim & Minor Vitality
Exploitation: Minor Prophecy


Meanwhile, NB's bar setup gives it these buffs:

Concealed Weapon: Minor Expedition
Powered Extraction: Major Brutality, Minor Courage, & Minor Cowardice
Phantasmal Escape: Major Evasion
Refreshing Path: Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, & Minor Intellect
Healthy Offering: Minor Mending
Cloak: Major Prophecy
Vigor: Minor Resolve
Ele Sus: Major Breach, Minor Vul, & Minor Maim
Shadow Barrier: Major Resolve
Hemorrhage: Minor Savagery

Ignoring Vigor, Ele Sus, and Quick Cloak, which are easily accessible for all classes, NB has access to 11 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Minor debuff, whereas Sorc only gets 7 combined Major + Minor buffs and 1 Major debuff. If you didn't notice, I don't have any skill providing Major Prophecy on my bar, meaning I have to use HP/Mag/Spell Crit potions to get that buff, which also means I don't have access to Tri-potions' stam sustain.

I also don't have bar space for Curse or Crystal Frag either, because as a melee spec I need Major Expedition and Major Evasion to properly survive in melee range. This is also not accounting for things like snare immunity, which is extremely important in PvP. I also don't have access to a snare immunity despite using Streak, which is a major downside because Streak + Major Expedition isn't going to help me get away in this meta where snares and roots are so prevalent. It's one of the reasons why Warden's Falcon Swiftness is so strong as a movement ability because it provides Major Expedition AND snare/root immunity. It's also why Snow Treaders is so strong because if you can't be slowed/rooted while having decent movement speed, you essentially mitigate a lot of damage from melee attacks.

So please tell me, where exactly can I fit Curse on this bar in Cyrodiil?

And to go further with this argument, if you ignore Vigor and Ele Sus, you can see that my bar space mimics that of a melee NB's bar space.

Concealed = Blood for Blood
Merciless Resolve = Bound Armaments
Phantasmal Escape = Quick Cloak
Powered Extraction = Crit Surge
Refreshing Path = Hurricane
Healthy Offering = Vibrant Shroud
Cloak = Streak
Siphoning Attacks = Dark Deal

Despite mirroring NB's bar space, I'm still missing Major Prophecy/Savagery and a snare/root immunity. If I switch to Ball of Lighting, then I won't have access to a stun.

If your argument is "Bound Armaments is weaker because Curse is strong", then tell me why I need to sacrifice an important buff (most likely Quick Cloak which provides Major Expedition and Major Evasion) on a class that's already inferior in terms of bar space efficiency just to have access to 1 more damage skill that when combined, is only slightly better than Merciless Resolve?

Btw, Bound Armaments actually gives better burst damage than Curse. The total tooltip of Bound Armament is always higher than Curse, so picking Curse instead of Bound Armaments isn't ideal.

StaticWave

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

I personally feel like this is a red herring. The reasoning being if you ask for buffs to sorc, maybe they won't nerf it. That's how I'm reading this anyway.

I'm assuming you're talking about magsorc correct? They could nerf magsorc to the ground and I wouldn't be affected. My bar space has nothing in common with magsorc.

Vaqual

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Lystrad wrote: »

While I agree that the +stam on bound armaments can feel pretty underwhelming next to grim focus, I do feel like it's important to point out that bound armaments, by virtue of being a sorcerer ability actually does give weapon/spell damage, albeit hidden.

The stormcalling passive expert mage gives 2% weapon/spell damage to every slotted sorcerer ability, so assuming 4000-6000 damage, slotting bound armaments gives between 80 and 120 weapon/spell damage. Not as much as grim focus to be sure, but it is something. Would be nice if it showed on the tooltip but I get that could get excessive. I also get that it might not feel inherent to bound armaments since every sorc ability gets that.

Sigh...
If we are to look at passives, MR has 2 passives that it also enables (that also boost its damage in return) just by slotting it, that grant crit chance and crit damage respectively.

NB Passive, Pressure Points:

2% crit chance from this passive just for slotting MR

NB Passive, Hemorrhage:

10% crit damage from this passive just for slotting MR

So MR gives 400 weapon/spell damage (inherent), 10% crit damage (Hemorrhage passive), 2% crit chance (Pressure points passive), full heal if cast in melee range (inherent), and stacks don't expire (inherent)

BA gives 8% stamina (inherent), 2% weapon/spell damage (between 80 and 120 from your numbers) (Expert mage passive)

Counting the passives just makes BA look even weaker as long as we count the passives for both abilities.

...and only because Energized and Amplitude are in another skill line doesn't mean they shouldn't be factored in. They are fully passive without bar slot allocation requirement. If you make it too easy for yourself the argument appears disingenuous.

I never said they shouldn't be, but by your logic, then the NB passives such as refreshing shadows, master assassin, executioner and catalyst should be factored in as well because all 4 of those passives are fully passive without bar slot allocation requirement.

To quote your comment:

If you make it too easy for yourself the argument appears disingenuous.

Maybe I didn't read all properly enough, but the topic seemed to be about damage. No reason to be smug (by posting my own line back to me).

Edit: Master assassin is a fair point though. Maybe I also simply don't understand what this thread is about.
For me the 15 % (or average 10 %) from Amplitude and Energized always more than made up for the 300 WD from Focus in wider class context. It will not be necessary to explain the pros and cons regarding damage types and uptimes to me.

Edit2: Just to spell it out, to avoid needless exchanges: In my opinion the NB kit is much more reliant on slotting Focus to exhaust its offensive power budget compared to Sorc. Sorcerer gets (in my opinion) more value from its damage scaling passives, which is why BA is consequently not scaling the same as the Grim Focus line. Of course there are many situational considerations, like stacks, bar slots, total WD, total resource, etc., but overall the balancing of those abilities seems to be in a reasonable spot in respect to each other.

Personal remark: I really dislike the disproportionate power contained in Grim focus and would much rather see some of it diverted into other parts of the NB kit. I do not agree that there is a need for an offensive buff to BA.

Edit3: Even though I would not really care if they would just go ahead and buff it, its not like it would make Sorc any more annoying than it is anyway. But that will just be another discussion about streak, as always...

Renato90085

nerf other skill(Curse/pet) and buff BA It's my long-held wish

StaticWave

Renato90085 wrote: »

nerf other skill(Curse/pet) and buff BA It's my long-held wish

You won't find bar space for both Curse and BA on a melee spec. For a melee spec to have both, they'd have to sacrifice an important skill on their bar, which is often not worth it.

The only specs that can have both Curse and BA are either a magsorc or a bowsorc. Both of these specs can afford to sacrifice Major Evasion or Expedition because of their ranged nature. They can afford to stay at range and deal damage, far away from most AoE abilities and can leave the fight quicker.

I'm just disappointed that BA is still lackluster due to ranged specs dominating. Ranged specs in general have been dominating for a while and there isn't much done to make melee specs more appealing to play as. How unfortunate that PvP has come to this state.

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

nerf other skill(Curse/pet) and buff BA It's my long-held wish

You won't find bar space for both Curse and BA on a melee spec. For a melee spec to have both, they'd have to sacrifice an important skill on their bar, which is often not worth it.

The only specs that can have both Curse and BA are either a magsorc or a bowsorc. Both of these specs can afford to sacrifice Major Evasion or Expedition because of their ranged nature. They can afford to stay at range and deal damage, far away from most AoE abilities and can leave the fight quicker.

I'm just disappointed that BA is still lackluster due to ranged specs dominating. Ranged specs in general have been dominating for a while and there isn't much done to make melee specs more appealing to play as. How unfortunate that PvP has come to this state.

You can absolutely have Curse and Bound Armaments on your bar even on StamSorc.
(And that is IMO often the best choice)

And BA is absolutely not a bad skill.

Sure it is not as strong as Merciless, but it still absolutely doesn't need a buff.

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

nerf other skill(Curse/pet) and buff BA It's my long-held wish

You won't find bar space for both Curse and BA on a melee spec. For a melee spec to have both, they'd have to sacrifice an important skill on their bar, which is often not worth it.

The only specs that can have both Curse and BA are either a magsorc or a bowsorc. Both of these specs can afford to sacrifice Major Evasion or Expedition because of their ranged nature. They can afford to stay at range and deal damage, far away from most AoE abilities and can leave the fight quicker.

I'm just disappointed that BA is still lackluster due to ranged specs dominating. Ranged specs in general have been dominating for a while and there isn't much done to make melee specs more appealing to play as. How unfortunate that PvP has come to this state.

You can absolutely have Curse and Bound Armaments on your bar even on StamSorc.
(And that is IMO often the best choice)

And BA is absolutely not a bad skill.

Sure it is not as strong as Merciless, but it still absolutely doesn't need a buff.

And give up Quick Cloak in the process? No thanks lol. Quick Cloak is needed for melee. You need a source of Major Expedition and Evasion to play in melee range, or you risk dying. Another way to make up for the loss of Major Expedition/Evasion is by building higher movement speed or tankiness, both of which involve sacrificing damage. I'd rather just keep that damage instead.

Can you elaborate why BA doesn't need a buff?

Jierdanit

StaticWave wrote: »

And give up Quick Cloak in the process? No thanks lol. Quick Cloak is needed for melee. You need a source of Major Expedition and Evasion to play in melee range, or you risk dying. Another way to make up for the loss of Major Expedition/Evasion is by building higher movement speed or tankiness, both of which involve sacrificing damage. I'd rather just keep that damage instead.

Drop Quick Cloak and Vibrant Shroud for Hardened and you get a slot for Curse.

Would probably gain both damage and defense at the cost of some movement speed.

StaticWave wrote: »

Can you elaborate why BA doesn't need a buff?

StamSorc is already one of the highest damage specs in the game.

And for me BA is consistently one of my highest damaging skills on CMX.

So IMO the only way to somehow justify buffing BA would be to nerf something else (Curse most likely), because stamsorc definitely doesn't need more damage in general.

Renato90085

StaticWave wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

nerf other skill(Curse/pet) and buff BA It's my long-held wish

You won't find bar space for both Curse and BA on a melee spec. For a melee spec to have both, they'd have to sacrifice an important skill on their bar, which is often not worth it.

The only specs that can have both Curse and BA are either a magsorc or a bowsorc. Both of these specs can afford to sacrifice Major Evasion or Expedition because of their ranged nature. They can afford to stay at range and deal damage, far away from most AoE abilities and can leave the fight quicker.

I'm just disappointed that BA is still lackluster due to ranged specs dominating. Ranged specs in general have been dominating for a while and there isn't much done to make melee specs more appealing to play as. How unfortunate that PvP has come to this state.

You can absolutely have Curse and Bound Armaments on your bar even on StamSorc.
(And that is IMO often the best choice)

And BA is absolutely not a bad skill.

Sure it is not as strong as Merciless, but it still absolutely doesn't need a buff.

And give up Quick Cloak in the process? No thanks lol. Quick Cloak is needed for melee. You need a source of Major Expedition and Evasion to play in melee range, or you risk dying. Another way to make up for the loss of Major Expedition/Evasion is by building higher movement speed or tankiness, both of which involve sacrificing damage. I'd rather just keep that damage instead.

Can you elaborate why BA doesn't need a buff?

for me, i want see BA buff:
1.add back purple smoke
2. nerf 1~3 stack dmg and buff full stack undodgeable or higher dmg like Flurry(each hit increases the damage of the subsequent hit by 5%?)

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And give up Quick Cloak in the process? No thanks lol. Quick Cloak is needed for melee. You need a source of Major Expedition and Evasion to play in melee range, or you risk dying. Another way to make up for the loss of Major Expedition/Evasion is by building higher movement speed or tankiness, both of which involve sacrificing damage. I'd rather just keep that damage instead.

Drop Quick Cloak and Vibrant Shroud for Hardened and you get a slot for Curse.

Would probably gain both damage and defense at the cost of some movement speed.

StaticWave wrote: »

Can you elaborate why BA doesn't need a buff?

StamSorc is already one of the highest damage specs in the game.

And for me BA is consistently one of my highest damaging skills on CMX.

So IMO the only way to somehow justify buffing BA would be to nerf something else (Curse most likely), because stamsorc definitely doesn't need more damage in general.

That can be misleading because BA is supposed to be used frequently and will show up as top damage on CMX. Curse will beat BA while kiting a lot though because you don’t have the chance to light attack weave as often.

My main argument is BA being lackluster compared to Relentless Focus. I don’t care if they nerf Curse. I don’t have bar space for it anyways and I can’t justify dropping Quick Cloak for Curse in Cyrodiil. I’ve tried it and it’s just not worth it.

MincMincMinc

Regardless if one skill is stronger than another with people crying and comparing different builds they have in mind. The max stam bonus is silly to have, it doesn't fit with the kit. Its not like stamsorc has a heal or something based on max stam.

It would be nice if heals scaled off max mag/stam across the game. This would fix a lot of the power creep issues where max mag/stam are basically useless stats now. Combat wise you would enforce the holy trinity more, where not all WD players will also double as healers. Previously zos stated in an interview that they agreed this would be healthy for the game, but they were worried players would be too confused by the abrupt change.

The only reason the max stam is there is because Bound Aegis gave max mag for magsorc shields. When they made the stam version of the skill, they lazily just put an equivalent max stam buff in place of the mag buff.

Just get rid of the buff and increase the skill's damage by 5% or add on major prophecy which is hard to get for stamsorc without running mag regen pots.

(because sorc gets minor prophecy, stamsorc has to get major prophecy even though typically you dont have much choice bar space for something like EvilH or Magelight thatll only be on one bar.)

StaticWave

Jierdanit wrote: »

Drop Quick Cloak and Vibrant Shroud for Hardened and you get a slot for Curse.

Would probably gain both damage and defense at the cost of some movement speed.

I’ve already done that when Ward only scaled with max HP and didn’t have the heal. When Ward received the heal, I was one of the ppl making threads about how overpowered Hardened Ward was. For those months I continued using Ward and theory crafting around it. Things changed when ZOS reworked Vibrant Shroud and Blood Magic passive.

While Ward builds for stamsorc are really tanky, the problem with those builds is that you have to build into max HP. You can’t build into max mag because you’ll need to drop Vigor for Bound Aegis and another skill for Inner Light, which essentially makes you a magsorc lol.

So now you’re losing out on 8-9k stam, which is equivalent to around 800-900 weapon dmg if you use the 10.5 stam = 1 weapon dmg conversion. Yes, max stam doesn't offer as much damage as weapon damage, but there is no doubt that a build with 40k
HP and 28k max stam will deal LESS damage than a build with 30k HP and 37k stam, provided that both builds have equal weapon damage. Yes, Curse can
somewhat make up for that damage loss, but you are still losing damage across the board, and there is still Quick Cloak doing passive AoE damage every 2 seconds.

Then you have to consider that unlike Deep Fissure or Crystal Weapon which can be pre-casted before the fight starts, Curse requires a target to cast, meaning that GCD is spent during the fight. This basically means an extra spammable would have achieved the same DPS as that Curse. However, due to the extra 8-9k max stam and passive damage from Cloak, you will in fact deal more damage than the build with Curse. What Curse has an edge is the ability to create a spike in burst damage, which imo isn’t really needed if you stack enough damage to make BA + spammable hit really hard. I have extensively tested this in duels to come to this conclusion btw.

Now the question is whether that extra 8-9k stam is worth losing 10k HP. The answer is yes because a build with 30k HP and 37k max stam using Vibrant Shroud and Quick Cloak is just as tanky as a build with 40k HP and 28k max stam using Ward and Curse. In fact, Vibrant Shroud giving Major Maim, Minor Vitality, and proccing Blood Magic passive makes it one of, if not the best heal in the game. Its tooltip is comparable to other single target burst heals like Healthy Offering, while also providing an AoE heal. Its utility offer even more healing and tankiness for you and your group. Its downside is Jerall and Defile, but that's partially solved by using Cleanse CP.

Furthermore, using your statement, dropping Quick Cloak would make me less tanky because I lose access to Major Evasion. In melee range I am at risk of taking damage from multiple Dawnbreakers, Northern Storms, Deep Fissures, Leaps, even Curse (yes, Curse is considered AoE damage now and you can test that for yourself). Those burst abilities will get me killed if I don’t protect myself with Major Evasion. Furthermore, Major Expedition allows me to quickly run away from the fight after using Streak, and the AoE DoT can provide extra chances to proc Crit Surge. Quick Cloak ticking every 2s while I’m around 5-6 people will give me a better Surge proc chance than Curse that only goes off every 3.5s and 8s.

It’s a long read and I don’t expect anyone to read all of it, but it’s what I’ve concluded from hundreds of duels and fights in Cyrodiil.

MincMincMinc

Jierdanit wrote: »

Drop Quick Cloak and Vibrant Shroud for Hardened and you get a slot for Curse.

Would probably gain both damage and defense at the cost of some movement speed.

Curse is trash now it is mitigated so easily, no point in running it on stamsorc in pvp. What you are saying is to trade two strong skills for one decent and one trash skill on stamsorc.

Turtle_Bot

IMO, both should be reworked at the same time. The following changes would solve most of the complaints I have seen (from both sorcs and non-sorcs).

The complaints I've seen:

• too much burst stacked into 1 GCD (common complaint from non-sorcs).
• ward too strong/too easy to build for (common complaint from non-sorcs).
• lack of major prophecy/savagery (long standing complaint of stamsorcs and shieldless magsorcs).
• gives class a sticky DoT for reliable surge procs while kiting (common complaint of sorcs).
• hybridizes BA so it functions for the role instead of max resources (fairly common complaint by sorcs since hybridization).
• prey difficult to maintain due to near frame perfect timing required (common complaint of PvE petsorcs).
• lack of utility, cleave and worthwhile secondary effects (common complaint for non-pet sorcs).

The changes I would like to see done:

• Curse:
  This becomes a single target damage over time ability (similar to entropy). Deals small bonus AoE proc of shock damage when you hit the target with direct shock/physical damage (2 second cooldown) damage done similar to sorc class script).
  With BA becoming the "delayed burst" that is equally useful for both mag and stam sorcs, and frags/weapon still available, there's no need to retain curse as yet another delayed burst when it could easily fill the missing gap of sticky DoT with bonus effects that sorc is lacking in its class kit. The bonus AoE proc is a way to retain the AoE aspect that was recently added to the ability to give sorc some cleave for PvE.
  • Daedric Prey:
    Grants increased pet damage (reduced to around 30% from the current 45% to account for the bonus AoE damage proc) and the bonus AoE tick now procs off pets hitting the afflicted target instead of the caster (same damage and cooldown as base morph). Duration increased to now match haunting curse duration to prevent the DoT from being too bursty.
    Makes this morph easier for pet-sorcs to use without requiring the frame perfect recasts to maintain both pet damage and the delayed burst damage from prey itself.
  • Haunting Curse:
    Also inflicts a debuff on afflicted target that increases shock damage taken by 5% (like DK flame breath, but for shock damage). This bonus to shock damage is doubled for this ability's AoE proc damage.
    Reinforces this morph as the non-pet morph, while also providing a unique buff sorc can bring groups beyond just Atro berserk.
• Bound Armor:
  Max magicka is replaced with Major Prophecy and Major Savagery while slotted on either bar.
  • Bound Aegis:
    Same change as Bound Armor, keeps its minor resolve and minor protection and block mitigation on activation.
    Reinforces this morph as the "tank" morph that is equally useful for all sorcs, not just mag stacking sorcs.
  • Bound Armaments:
    Max stamina replaced with Major Prophecy and Major Savagery. Damage type is based on whichever max resource is higher (physical damage for stamina, shock damage for magicka). Grants 219 (or 1%) Crit chance per stack. Stacks last 30 seconds.
    Reinforces this morph as the DPS morph that is equally useful on any sorc, not just primarily on stamina DPS sorcs.

With this rework also indirectly nerfs Ward. 8% max mag is a big nerf to ward considering it applies to both the shield and the heal (so its a 16% nerf in practice). It is also likely to come with a further 7% nerf to ward due to most sorcs also dropping Inner light from their bars since inner light doubles up on major prophecy/savagery and is extremely inefficient use of bar space. 15% nerf (30% in practice) is massive (note this won't affect sorcs who were scaling ward off max health, since that remains unchanged, so PvE tanks will be unaffected by this change).

Turtle_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Drop Quick Cloak and Vibrant Shroud for Hardened and you get a slot for Curse.

Would probably gain both damage and defense at the cost of some movement speed.

Curse is trash now it is mitigated so easily, no point in running it on stamsorc in pvp. What you are saying is to trade two strong skills for one decent and one trash skill on stamsorc.

I'm barely seeing it on magsorcs even, with most just running frags/contingency instead