ZOS & My Mental Health

Gabriel_H

I've being debating posting this for a long time, but the upcoming "rewards" have tipped the scale.

I have OCD. If you don't know what that is, to put it simply, I am compelled to have to do certain tasks - not doing them causes me massive levels of anxiety and depression. I have spend 30 years learning to manage my OCD. I take medication for my OCD. Playing computer games is part of that management. They are not only structured and have set rules, but they also provide a distraction.

For all my time in this game, up until recently, this game has been very friendly to my OCD. For example: There are things in the crown store that do not show in the collectibles tab as uncollected. This is good - it helps me with my OCD. Part of managing it for me is being able to ignore the unattainable.

In a nutshell, if there is an achievement in the Journal, or a collectible showing in Collectibles, then I have to get them. It does not need to be right this second, I can take my time with them, this is part of the coping techniques I have spent three decades learning, and aided by my medication. I've done every quest in the game, with the exception of the PvP repeatables in Cyrodiil that I'll get to eventually. I have found all the lorebooks (except several bugged ones), I've explored the entire map, and run every dungeon, arena and trial, and killed every boss anywhere. It isn't just about being a completionist, it's being a completionist on steroids with a nagging voice constantly in the back of my head.

Then a while back ZOS added some new achivements. One for each of the Alliances in PvP - ok I can do that, it will cost me crowns (and real money) to get Alliance change tokens. Annoying as hell but doable. They also introduced Class levelling achievements, and here is where the problem starts because there is no Class change token. I know what you are thinking, well just create another character! It is not that simple. I would not be able to just level that character, I would have to find all the lorebooks, do all the quests, explore all of the map, run all of the dungeons and trials, etc etc. That is a massive undertaking, that I would have to do 5 times, and it would still cause my OCD to nag at me, because the achievement would have a different character name on it, and would literally drive me crazy.

From my OCD point of view, I can ignore not having levelled other classes. The issues it causes me not to have one of each class is outweighed by the issues that would be caused with having them. It's a choice I get to make as to which would be worse for my mental health.

Then we come to today:

So, if I want the new skill styles free, I have to level a new character. And I have to have all the new styles because ZOS put them in the collectibles tab:

So, what it boils down to is this - To get the Alliance achievements I have to pay money becasue of my mental health, to get the new skill styles I have to pay money because of my mental health, and to get the Class levelling achievements I have to hope that one day soon ZOS introduce Class change tokens and then pay money because of my mental health.

Now, some (maybe most) of you probably have some idea how awful OCD can be to live with - if you don't then this thread is not for you. As for ZOS, I'm begging you please stop trying to force multiple classes on players, and consider the rammifications of what you implement. You are forcing me to have to spend money than most players do not have to spend. I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you further.

PS. Oh and please implement Class change tokens, because one day soon those achievements are going to start driving me nuts (or simply remove them and just have a level one character achievement again).

joe_schmo

I'm gonna be blunt here - perhaps it might be better to abandon ESO and move on to something else. If playing ESO is a net negative, as in there are more negative effects to your mental health than positive ones (especially with these new collectible reward structures), then the game is no longer serving you - it's just destroying you. I doubt ZOS is going to ever add class change tokens, and it's not worth your mental health hoping that someday they will change their minds.

JonesFPS

Adding to joe-schmo's comment, while i do have maximum sympathie for you i'd also say if you can leave the game behind, do it.
A company, in this case ZoS wont cater to everyones needs and especially not deaseases/illnesses etc. they are just to big for that to be taken into consideration they want to appeal to the broad mass.

I wish you all the best.

Ruthless

A lot of people on the forums are ok with paying for everything.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

Northwold

Agree with the first message above. Your concerns with the game and how it relates to your own condition very strongly suggest that you would be better off leaving ESO.

You already recognise it is doing damage so you're most of the way there in coming to terms with what is and isn't good for you, and I suspect you are well aware that changes of the kind you're asking for are highly unlikely to be implemented. MMOs of all stripes have fear of missing out and infinite collecting baked into their DNA because that is what keeps players coming back.

A video game is meant to be a pleasure -- an entertainment. That is not what you are describing in your specific case.

Valion

I read through your description, and I think I get the idea of what your "obsession" feels like, lacking a better word since I'm no Native English Speaker.
As @joe_schmo put it - it might on one hand be time to move on.
On the other hand - with exposition comes evolvement of your potentials.
Another line is drawn in the sand before you. Take that step? If it is worth it, you most probably could, from what I read.
I am sure you'll make the right decision.
(Hope you'll stay. )

I think there is another point to it, yet.
The psychological approch in parts of the gaming industry is to titillate exactly these feelings of "need", and the notorious fear of missing out.
Maybe you're not the only one to experience the negative feelings, but only one to feel the change a bit earlier, and quite a bit more intensive. To me, it comes as a warning to all of us where this game might be heading.
The scale in between enjoyment provided and profits made is - in my eyes- constantly swaying.
But I fear a tendency.
Loot boxes.
Paywalls for OP classes, accidently (temporarily) risen prices on houses, exalted cosmetics for real money, timed achievements and rewards that highly encourage you to spend even more time in game or - even better, yet - subscribe to ESO Plus.
(Which I did for more then ten years straight, mind you. )

On the other hand - since it's Microsoft's agenda and a legal problem in some countries, a figleaf is provided with the Endeavour system in place. Yes, you can get everything. At least if you play forever.
Theoretically.
Although, ever since the system was implemented, the efforts have gone up, and the rewards have gone down, if I am not mistaken.
(Which I might be. Please, correct me if so!)

[I fear this is all just my frustration speaking, still maining my Nightblade,
and rushing after the red lights of what is happening in endgame PVE content. ]

Gabriel_H

joe_schmo wrote: »

I'm gonna be blunt here - perhaps it might be better to abandon ESO and move on to something else. If playing ESO is a net negative, as in there are more negative effects to your mental health than positive ones (especially with these new collectible reward structures), then the game is no longer serving you - it's just destroying you. I doubt ZOS is going to ever add class change tokens, and it's not worth your mental health hoping that someday they will change their minds.

A vast over-reaction to an easy to fix problem.

sarahthes

ZOS is allowed to say that to have full completion of the game by their standards you have to complete all aspects of the game, including leveling multiple characters or playing all alliances.

Edit: you could also just make a second character, force it to level 50, collect the skill style bundle, and then delete the second character.

Gabriel_H

sarahthes wrote: »

ZOS is allowed to say that to have full completion of the game by their standards you have to complete all aspects of the game, including leveling multiple characters or playing all alliances.

Edit: you could also just make a second character, force it to level 50, collect the skill style bundle, and then delete the second character.

That isn't what they are saying. They are saying to have free stuff, that isn't content, level multiple characters - that is a very different thing.

Solutions to the Skill Style issue:

1) Lower it to one character
2) Make it number of CPs
3) Remove non-attainable style from the Collection tab

None of those are hard to do. As for your edit ... thanks for not reading the post

Gabriel_H

Valion wrote: »

The psychological approch in parts of the gaming industry is to titillate exactly these feelings of "need", and the notorious fear of missing out.

It very much is the approach of the gaming industry, but stuff behind a paywall are manageable for me, as long as I don't see a constant reminder in the Collections tab. Which until very very recently ZOS had been doing that.

sarahthes

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ZOS is allowed to say that to have full completion of the game by their standards you have to complete all aspects of the game, including leveling multiple characters or playing all alliances.

Edit: you could also just make a second character, force it to level 50, collect the skill style bundle, and then delete the second character.

That isn't what they are saying. They are saying to have free stuff, that isn't content, level multiple characters - that is a very different thing.

Solutions to the Skill Style issue:

1) Lower it to one character
2) Make it number of CPs
3) Remove non-attainable style from the Collection tab

None of those are hard to do. As for your edit ... thanks for not reading the post

As a company they cannot possibly cater to absolutely everyone. If you aren't able to delete a character after creating it, then that is a pretty highly specific issue, and not the same as you saying you have to play a character to completion.

However I shall bow out of this conversation now, as it seems the suggested workarounds will not work for you.

Mathius_Mordred

Bro, find another hobby that doesn't require you to be a completionist on steroids. There are so many single-player games that once you've got all the achievements you can be sure no more are added, or do something else that doesn't have any achievements at all. You honestly can't expect the devs to change a system that works and that many people love just because you have an unfortunate condition. I have arachnophobia so should ZOS remove all spiders in the game because I have a disproportionate fear of 8 legged freaks? (As it happens I love killing the little buggers in ESO). Good luck.

tomofhyrule

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ZOS is allowed to say that to have full completion of the game by their standards you have to complete all aspects of the game, including leveling multiple characters or playing all alliances.

Edit: you could also just make a second character, force it to level 50, collect the skill style bundle, and then delete the second character.

That isn't what they are saying. They are saying to have free stuff, that isn't content, level multiple characters - that is a very different thing.

Solutions to the Skill Style issue:

1) Lower it to one character
2) Make it number of CPs
3) Remove non-attainable style from the Collection tab

None of those are hard to do. As for your edit ... thanks for not reading the post

But that edit is exactly how to fix it.

1. Make a new character and level them to 50 (that also gets you the class-based achievements that you can't get with only a single character
2. Collect the styles
3. Delete the extra character you made. That means you will still have the styles and the acheivements for the new character, but you will not have the other character anymore so you will not need to 'complete' everything on them since they no longer exist.

On a larger topic though, this is an MMO, and the concept of 'completing everything' is completely antithetical to an MMO in general... because the whole point of an MMO is to keep you playing, so they fundamentally do not want anyone to complete everything so that people still have a reason to come back. Also remember that there are some 'uncollected' things that only the 1% of the 1% will be able to get in the first place as those are rewards for the hardest of the hardest content (trial trifectas)

Also, the point of this spotlight is to celebrate making alternate characters, just like how every other 'spotlight' focused on one part of the game or another. Your first two 'solutions' fundamentally are missing that point. They want people to make alts, and this is a reward specifically for making alts. As to your third option though, I wonder if you could enlist an addon author to help. I don't know anything about making addons, but as it's just a UI element, I could imagine that someone would be able to write an addon to hide uncollected collectables in the menu, I just haven't seen one... but I don't know if that's because there's little demand or if it's not possible.

What I would suggest is to speak to your therapist about this. Many treatments for OCD involve a guided form of CBT or ERP, where your therapist will work with you to try smaller and smaller things to dampen your automatic responses. Sure, people online (who haven't done guided ERP therapy) will essentially just say "expose yourself to it and get over it," which is only the basest-level essense of ERP but misses the guided part and the fact that you are ramping up in difficulty. I am currently working with my therapist on some of my OCD issues and it has helped greatly - even though at the time she explained it to me I thought it was ridiculous.

kevkj

Ok, so what you are really asking for is for ZOS to not show unclaimed cosmetics from the crown store in the collections tab right?

Valion

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

[...], everything is cosmetics and aesthetics.

I think you are right regarding the P2W in other games. Still yet, Arcanists are to be paid for, aren't they?
And if you consider the very nature of online games, cosmetics and aesthetics aren't just some marginal note, but the very text in which you present yourself to the world.
We should not underestimate the significance appearances have - not in real life, not in games.
(And the prices they set on fashion prove my point, don't they? Subtle, but effective.)

Gabriel_H

kevkj wrote: »

Ok, so what you are really asking for is for ZOS to not show unclaimed cosmetics from the crown store in the collections tab right?

That is one solution.

Gabriel_H

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But that edit is exactly how to fix it.

1. Make a new character and level them to 50 (that also gets you the class-based achievements that you can't get with only a single character
2. Collect the styles
3. Delete the extra character you made. That means you will still have the styles and the acheivements for the new character, but you will not have the other character anymore so you will not need to 'complete' everything on them since they no longer exist.

I already stated in my opening post why that isn't a feasable option, but please by all means explain my own illness too me.

Gabriel_H

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Bro, find another hobby that doesn't require you to be a completionist on steroids. There are so many single-player games that once you've got all the achievements you can be sure no more are added, or do something else that doesn't have any achievements at all. You honestly can't expect the devs to change a system that works and that many people love just because you have an unfortunate condition. I have arachnophobia so should ZOS remove all spiders in the game because I have a disproportionate fear of 8 legged freaks? (As it happens I love killing the little buggers in ESO). Good luck.

Hmm ... a massive over-reaction to a problem with a simple fix that would reinforce my OCD ... or ZOS can simply change it to 1 instead of 2 characters ... or ZOS can just not put Crown Store items as uncollected collecibles like they have always done before.

AzuraFan

I can also have completionist tendencies. For ESO, I know there are activities I'll never do, and achievements I consider unreasonable or a waste of time. So I decided what rules I'd abide by for achievements and collectibles. MY rules. Nobody else's.

I have my own list of achievements and items I want to get/complete. Once that list is completely checked off, I'm done.

Alternatively, as people have suggested, move on to another game. I know that might be difficult, but if playing ESO is stressing you to the point that you're worried about your mental health, move on to single-player games. MMOs always add new stuff.

sarahthes

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

Bro, find another hobby that doesn't require you to be a completionist on steroids. There are so many single-player games that once you've got all the achievements you can be sure no more are added, or do something else that doesn't have any achievements at all. You honestly can't expect the devs to change a system that works and that many people love just because you have an unfortunate condition. I have arachnophobia so should ZOS remove all spiders in the game because I have a disproportionate fear of 8 legged freaks? (As it happens I love killing the little buggers in ESO). Good luck.

Hmm ... a massive over-reaction to a problem with a simple fix that would reinforce my OCD ... or ZOS can simply change it to 1 instead of 2 characters ... or ZOS can just not put Crown Store items as uncollected collecibles like they have always done before.

It's hard to celebrate alt characters by only having a single character to fulfill the requirements of the alt character celebration.

MJallday

First of all i absolutely sympathise with you for having any form of medical condition.

I don't know anyone that's got every single achievement in this game. Certainly no one on Xbox EU - not even top tier players. Actually most of them don't even bother with the minor ones - and new ones are happening all the time. So it might be worth you focusing on getting some of the other achievements. What about Planesbreaker? Godslayer? Dawnbringer? have you done all of those? - maybe focus on those? there's over 1000 achievos i think - im not if sure you have them all?

personally im on just over 50k achievements but i know there's so much more to get . fwiw - killing every boss is not the same as getting every achievement - trifectors, hard modes - theres a world of them out there.

anyway. as for class change tokens - ZOS have said this is a technical challenge - so wont do it. never say never but this has been asked for for at least 8 years.. and nothing has happened. dont expect anything to change on this front.

i actually agree with a point youve alluded to - i think it would save significant server and database space (and improve performance) to combine achievements for loreboooks/quests etc. - but this is the way it is and again i doubt it will change.

As others have said, this is a game. if its causing you more pain than pleasure, you know what to do.

Treeshka

I believe up until this point everything that is sourced from Crown Store, except two styles from Crown Crates, was not showing up in the collectables section. It only showed there once you bought it. Trend seems to be changed and i honestly do not like it as well.

Below it shows the Crown Crate only styles that is shown in Outfit section. One of them is almost six years old.

valenwood_vegan

I first of all absolutely sympathize with OP's condition and the issues related to it, both IRL and as they relate specifically to ESO. I have personally always suffered from sometimes severe social anxiety, and without going into great detail, it makes it difficult for me to engage in large group content in eso, like trials for example. Particularly when they require being in voice.

So I can relate to wanting zos to take this into account, by for example minimizing things locked behind trials or offering some kind of solo trial mode.

But at the same time... I understand that the game can't possibly cater to everyone's individual conditions and needs. It's a huge game, with tens of thousands playing at any given time, and new stuff being added constantly. I focus on doing what I enjoy in the game, and try to avoid as much as possible the aspects of it that *don't* bring me joy. In OP's case, perhaps this could be done through focusing on other uncompleted achievements, assuming they haven't finished literally every aspect of the game.

If it's causing this much distress, it may be best to take a break for a time; try some other games; work on these issues in therapy; etc.

Everyone I know in eso has parts of the game they enjoy and parts of the game that are difficult for them, or triggering to them, or upsetting, or enraging. It's different for each person. We have to try to adapt ourselves to the game and find solutions for ourselves - it cannot possibly adapt every aspect of the game to the needs of each individual person playing.

I do wish OP the best.

Soarora

Maybe an addon can help you? I know there’s addons that alter menus, such as the achievement menu. I don’t know if it’d help if an addon could maybe hide unearned collectibles by forcing your menu settings to be set to “earned”. In terms of achievements being attributed to the wrong character, I know for sure there’s addons that delete the “earned by:” pop-up.

Personofsecrets

There was something that I picked up from that news post which I found sort of funny. I was going to write about it here, but figured that noone would be able to relate. But it looks like @Gabriel_H does.

"Part of every player's journey is creating varied characters to experience Tamriel with" is what's written in the news writeup.

That is not true. My desire to play on other toons is minimal to nothing. My first characters that I made is a DK tank. My first alt-character that others encouraged me to make, well, I settled on a DK to tank with and stopped playing it pretty quickly. All of my alt-characters exist to hoard stuff in their inventory.

I really don't care about the other classes. I identify best with the character that I first made. I too like to complete all of the game content. That includes collecting the lore, finishing the quest log, and completing achievements. I guess thats where a difference, fortunately one for me, is that even though I have an obsessive compulsive personality that manifests in my hobbies such as video game addiction, I don't have any nagging thoughts that upset me for not finishing some collections. The only times I really feel bad from hobbies is regret in cases that I could have done something in the past, but messed it up some how.

Anyhow, empathizing with you Gabriel. Not everyone likes playing a bunch of toons. Not everyone even likes 2 different toons!

Zodiarkslayer

In my experience, ESO is a game for people with a healthy mentality of "I don't care".

I am not a psychiatrist, but if you have a severe OCD, you probably shouldn't play any type of MMO with a dynamic range of collectables.
You should probably lean into "static" single player games. Something with a fixed array of items to collect and that's it.

I know, that "let it go" is probably the last thing someone with OCD wants to hear, but if it hurts, it hurts.

@Gabriel_H I hope you get through this!

Tandor

While I can appreciate the OP's mental health condition, not least because I have close family members with OCD, I also appreciate the move that ZOS have made with the announcement of the free Class Style Pack for those players with at least 2 characters at level 50. For me it's a very welcome concession to those of us who hate the constant move away from character-specific things to account-wide things. Many of us lost some of the purpose of making alts a while back and this is one small but positive step in the right direction.

The OP states that playing computer games is part of the management of his OCD, but presumably that is on the basis that the games help to ease him through his compulsions as a result of his enjoyment of the games, thereby enabling him to make steps, however small, towards overcoming those compulsions, rather than by looking to developers to change their games so as to accommodate his OCD.

As for the suggestion that collectibles should not be listed until you have them, how are you supposed to know about them if they aren't listed?

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We've had to remove a few non-constructive and baiting comments. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums.

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We know people will not always agree and many of you will share different opinions, but please remember that being rude to your fellow community members is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game.

Thank you for your understanding.

tomofhyrule

Gabriel_H wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But that edit is exactly how to fix it.

1. Make a new character and level them to 50 (that also gets you the class-based achievements that you can't get with only a single character
2. Collect the styles
3. Delete the extra character you made. That means you will still have the styles and the acheivements for the new character, but you will not have the other character anymore so you will not need to 'complete' everything on them since they no longer exist.

I already stated in my opening post why that isn't a feasable option, but please by all means explain my own illness too me.

And as I wrote in mine, I also have been diagnosed with OCD. I received my diagnosis back in 2012 or so, so it’s been 10 years that I’ve been dealing with it.

I remember how it felt. I remember hearing from my therapist about how other people ‘got better,’ but that obviously meant nobody had it like I did. Mine was obviously different. Nobody would ever understand. Nothing they did would work, and she was dumb to think so. And then she suggested ERP, which just sounded like suffering with the exact problems that were affecting me? Preposterous!

And then I finally trusted her. And she was right.

No, I don’t know your exact situation. But I might know a lot more than you think I do because I have been there. I’ve been in your exact situation where it felt like the world would never understand and that I was all alone.

Talk. To. Your. Therapist. I know it’s impossible to believe, but letting her help me was the best thing I ever did. My OCD barely affects me anymore because I learned how to stop feeding it. I still get those intrusive thoughts, but I now know how to brush them aside.

I know in this day and age it seems almost fashionable to expect the world to change to adapt to your mental state. Stuff like that is all over Tik Tok now. But from someone who went through it, don’t suffer with it. You can learn to not let it affect you. It will take time. But life is so much better when you’re not fettered by it anymore.

As for the game, ESO as it is probably a bit too high on the CBT ladder for you because it wants to show you there are so many things to do. I would try to find an addon author to write an addon to hide uncollected things in the short term, but in the longer term you may need a therapist to help you work up to this. Most CBT therapists will have you start with something smaller so you can work up to something that gives you crippling anxiety.

dk_dunkirk

I struggle with OCD as well, and from my point of view, ZOS is actively hostile to anyone trying to actually do achievements. I mean, hiding zone completion behind scrying for antiquities with a lead hidden behind ToT?! And not only that, but I've seen many complaints and even bug reports that the drop rate for that lead is abysmal, even amongst the generally abusive and grinding nature of these things.

Give me a break. Literally. I've seen exactly one post from a PC player and one post from a PS player that completed all achievements as of a couple years ago. But 99.99999999999999999999% of players will never even come close. I've been working at it for years, and I'm still only at about 2/3rds complete. If you're going to make 80,000 achievements in the game, then at least give us clearly-separate categories and keep it clean.

For instance, I could manage the PVP crap, if it were all in one place. But, no, you have to kill 10 people that you've literally just pied in the face in Cyrodill to do one of the holiday events. Sure, guilds go do that together, but then, doesn't the fact that they've made that one so onerous to do that it has to be cheesed ruin the whole idea in the first place? It's ridiculous.

If that wasn't enough, to my view, ZOS is also predatory in their attempts to monetize the neural atypical. It seems exceedingly carefully engineered to pick at people's brains. Uh, good job, I guess?

Player counts are at historic lows, and, frankly, I think these sorts of issues are part of the problem. I've been on the fence about this game for awhile because of precisely this sort of antagonism towards those of us who play the game this way. This thread is another notch towards just moving on myself.

AzuraFan

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

If you're going to make 80,000 achievements in the game, then at least give us clearly-separate categories and keep it clean.
....
Player counts are at historic lows, and, frankly, I think these sorts of issues are part of the problem. I've been on the fence about this game for awhile because of precisely this sort of antagonism towards those of us who play the game this way. This thread is another notch towards just moving on myself.

Yep. I've posted before about how group achievements are mixed in with solo ones. How PvE achievements are mixed in with stuff you have to do in Cyrodiil. Etc. It's all over the place in this game. I'm tired of the constant "trying to get players to do what they don't enjoy" in an apparently "play as you want" game.

I think this game is one of the worst a completionist can play unless you're a player that enjoys every activity and tons of busywork. Otherwise there's no way you'll complete everything.

It's amazing how much the OP has already accomplished. OP, try another game and get back to having FUN.