Do you think game devs should be good at thier own Games

JonnytheKing

moderatelyfatman

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

JonnytheKing wrote: »

You need to define 'good'. Not necessarily sweaty but good enough to have a deep understanding of the mechanics and game play style of each class and game mode.

spartaxoxo

no

Game design is a different field than eSports. Player input is important, including the opinions of people very skilled. But being good at the game isn't the same thing as being good at game design or vice versa.

Even in coaching in irl sports, some of the best coaches were not exceptional players. And some of the best players didn't make great coaches.

I'm not saying a person can't be skilled at both. But, it is not necessary for someone to be good at both to be good at either job.

colossalvoids

yes

Competitive and live service ones, absolutely. If they're not it's either them or players are not in the right place imo.

Erickson9610

ESO is just as much The Elder Scrolls as it is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. There's PvP and high end PvE, since those are staples of MMORPGs, but there's so much more to this game than just that.

The developers are good at a variety of things, and I think that's good enough.

Soarora

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

Erickson9610 wrote: »

ESO is just as much The Elder Scrolls as it is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. There's PvP and high end PvE, since those are staples of MMORPGs, but there's so much more to this game than just that.

The developers are good at a variety of things, and I think that's good enough.

The writing is bad too. Aside from Necrom I'm eliminating, what, the past 3 Chapters from my character lore because I find the plots to be so bad.
The devs also put new players at a disadvantage with the default settings, like, why is the default bad aoe color a dull red? Many people end up brightening it and/or changing the color. Why are timers and percent resource not on by default?
I do not expect all devs to be good at the game or even play, but somewhere in the decision-making process someone should be.

kyle.wilson

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

The people need to have an understanding of the content they work on.
I don't care if the dungeon and housing leads can't pvp, I do care if the pvp lead can't identify skills.

merevie

no

No, they don't.
And if we want them to be, and we've had 20000 hours getting good at something, be prepared to give them all pay rises so they can also play 20000 hours.

Stamicka

no

Being good at a game is more about where someone stands in relation to others. So if there’s extremely good players on a game, they set the bar pretty high and others will look bad in comparison.

Personally speaking, I would not consider myself good at ESO at this point in time. I don’t play enough or even have builds to compete with people who do still play. I would say however that I have a very solid understanding of how the game works and what design choices would improve it. I can still give meaningful feedback even though I only log on a few times a year to experience whatever new thing gets added.

I would expect a developer to have a deep understanding of the game’s mechanics and design, but being good would probably require time and practice against others. It’s not something that would naturally get picked up from developing the game alone.

SkaiFaith

Would you expect someone who works in a place that mass-produce musical instruments to be proficient in playing them?
Even if the instrument is a single one, would you expect every employee to be a master at playing it?
Sure it can help if someone is, especially in the QA department, but it's not really required - what's important is the skill and capability of mass producing something that works.
If they can't play it themselves, who cares...

Now, on the other hand, marketing and ads work way better when you feel the people working on the item are passionate about it.
But again, passion is the key, not ability.
So... There you have it.

Sleepsin

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Would you expect someone who works in a place that mass-produce musical instruments to be proficient in playing them?
Even if the instrument is a single one, would you expect every employee to be a master at playing it?
Sure it can help if someone is, especially in the QA department, but it's not really required - what's important is the skill and capability of mass producing something that works.
If they can't play it themselves, who cares...

Now, on the other hand, marketing and ads work way better when you feel the people working on the item are passionate about it.
But again, passion is the key, not ability.
So... There you have it.

I would expect those employees to know the difference between the wind instruments and the string instruments.

Chilly-McFreeze

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Would you expect someone who works in a place that mass-produce musical instruments to be proficient in playing them?
Even if the instrument is a single one, would you expect every employee to be a master at playing it?
Sure it can help if someone is, especially in the QA department, but it's not really required - what's important is the skill and capability of mass producing something that works.
If they can't play it themselves, who cares...

Now, on the other hand, marketing and ads work way better when you feel the people working on the item are passionate about it.
But again, passion is the key, not ability.
So... There you have it.

That analogy isn't fitting. If I'm a driving instructor I should know how to drive. If I'm a car salesman I should know the difference between a rim and a tire. If I'm minister for economy I should have at least basic understandings of economics.

Yet the dev didn't seem to know basic mechanics, sets and skills. I don't care if he's bad at performing. I care that it seemes there was not enough knowledge and understanding.

sarahthes

no

Sleepsin wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Would you expect someone who works in a place that mass-produce musical instruments to be proficient in playing them?
Even if the instrument is a single one, would you expect every employee to be a master at playing it?
Sure it can help if someone is, especially in the QA department, but it's not really required - what's important is the skill and capability of mass producing something that works.
If they can't play it themselves, who cares...

Now, on the other hand, marketing and ads work way better when you feel the people working on the item are passionate about it.
But again, passion is the key, not ability.
So... There you have it.

I would expect those employees to know the difference between the wind instruments and the string instruments.

I wouldn't expect them to be able to identify a specific song though.

Bobargus

yes

Absolutely yes.

If the developers expect ESO's players to be able to jump through the hoops that they designed for our entertainment, then i expect them to be able to do the same.

And if they are not able to show their proficiency at playing the game, then i expect them to provide options that can allow players to fine tune the activities in the game to be playable however they wish, including a difficulty option.

spartaxoxo

no

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yet the dev didn't seem to know basic mechanics, sets and skills. I don't care if he's bad at performing. I care that it seemes there was not enough knowledge and understanding.

The devs most likely have different terminology for things internally than they do public-facing. Unlike a player who only cares about a small handful of sets as well, he has to work with all of them. So, what is basic to a player maybe complicated for a dev to recall instantly. This doesn't mean they don't understand game design.

thorwyn

Play the game? Yes.
Be "good" at it? No!

Greystag

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

You can be a good designer while still being bad at a game, especially when it comes to PvP.
Devs spend their days at their job, and may not want to come back home and just play the game they've been working on for the rest of the day. They may have a second job, a family, etc, and not that much time to invest in a game.

Being good, at least to a point where it "pleases" the playerbase, takes time, and if you want someone to put those extra hours into the game, then tell the company to hire people to train this person or pay those extra hours, don't harass devs.

VixxVexx

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

They don't need to be skilled at the game, but at least informed/aware.
I'd take a look at Path of Exile and Old School Runescape developers for a good example.

Chilly-McFreeze

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Yet the dev didn't seem to know basic mechanics, sets and skills. I don't care if he's bad at performing. I care that it seemes there was not enough knowledge and understanding.

The devs most likely have different terminology for things internally than they do public-facing. Unlike a player who only cares about a small handful of sets as well, he has to work with all of them. So, what is basic to a player maybe complicated for a dev to recall instantly. This doesn't mean they don't understand game design.

TBF I have watched only recaps of other streamers and read many comments in the forums about it. So my second hand knowledge might be wrong, then feel free to correct or ignore me. At least in the recap they said he didn't even know how to heavy attack to return resources and he died because he was OoR.

And honestly, yes there might be different terms for certain sets, skills etc behind the scenes. But If I expose myself to the public in a livestream I better come prepared about the biggest pain points the community WILL bring up. A short look into the forums would have helped tremendiously.

The spotlight, the expectations are high for the lead dev doing a pvp stream.

MJallday

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

developers are jus that, developers - they write code

what you're actually asking for is "better game designers" - who are often not developers.
they tell the developers what to code, and the devs code it.

devs dont hang around skyreach with a controller in their hand. theyre looking at lines and lines of code to work out why stuff doenst do stuff, or is throwing an error.

thats how a software house works -

Danikat

no

Some of the developers need to understand the game mechanics - if they're designing skills or encounters they need to understand how the underlying mechanics work. But even they don't need to be the best players, they don't need to be able to clear trials, only understand how it can be done.

Like the examples above. The world's best guitarist isn't going to be the best person to build an amazing guitar because that's an entirely different skillset. Meanwhile someone designing a guitar does need to know how one works but they don't actually need to be able to play it, just understand how it can be played.

Taril

no

There is no real need to be "Good" at a game to be able to make it. It's not like it's Mario Maker where you need to beat your levels to upload them.

So long as there is understanding about how the game works and how it is played (By both those that are bad at the game and those that are good at the game) that is sufficient enough to be able to produce the game.

For more in depth analysis required for things like balancing, there is more emphasis on having knowledge, BUT this knowledge can be spread amongst the entire team that works on it.

It's not one singular individual sitting there with their encyclopaedic knowledge of all the game's data and systems masterminding the entire operation... Work is a collaboration between many people, who may have knowledge of different aspects of the game and will provide details and input where necessary.

Taggund

no

Depends on the role, but I think they should at least be regularly playing the game (and not just in some Dev environment). And depending on role, they should also be aware of feedback from players, and this includes reviewing content creators for different perspectives and seeing the applied impacts of the changes being made.

nathamarath

no

Interesting question. To create you must have an idea yourself or see something wishing to make something similiar or better. So they should be "doing it" or wishing to do it but "being good at it" imo lacks direction: good at what? Configuring server-client communication, sota-char designer, master of settings? The game is developed by so many people, each doing a certain part of the game including the audio, transfer, framework, 3D design or story tellers (lore creators).

I think being good at something is, as everywhere, a matter of experience. I comes by time.

garir_komes_molroy

yes

They are representing the game, and they should definitely have experience in the area they are showing. I'm not talking about “ultra pro cyber experience”, I'm talking about at least an average level of play, and what we were shown is a below average level of play, at the level of a beginner who put together a build from youtube without understanding how it works. Who cares to watch a game where the developers are dying. If they're going to play pvp, at least let them know what a popular set is doing. What will be shown on the stream is just awful and disrespectful to the pvp audience.

StarOfElyon

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

JonnytheKing wrote: »

They don't have to be "good" but they should at least look competent out there, if they're not going to listen to the players. 👀

Not listening to the players means you know better than them. When it becomes clear that you don't know better than them, that's not a good look.

tom6143346

no

Is a Mechanik of a f1 car a good driver ? Probably not ! He just had a very good understanding of how the machine works. That said we shouldn’t always compare apples with bananas. And I am pretty sure a lead designer has his people that are good at the he game to get things checked out.

StarOfElyon

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

Greystag wrote: »

You can be a good designer while still being bad at a game, especially when it comes to PvP.
Devs spend their days at their job, and may not want to come back home and just play the game they've been working on for the rest of the day. They may have a second job, a family, etc, and not that much time to invest in a game.

Being good, at least to a point where it "pleases" the playerbase, takes time, and if you want someone to put those extra hours into the game, then tell the company to hire people to train this person or pay those extra hours, don't harass devs.

I think that playtime should be on company time. That's part of quality assurance.

thegreeneso

no

"Game devs" is a very broad term. I don't see what environment artists being good at the game would accomplish.

But since you probably mean game designers, my answer is still no. Knowing what makes something good doesn't necessarily mean being good at that thing.

Four_Fingers

no

So, should all players be required to get good at the game as well?

kyle.wilson

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So, should all players be required to get good at the game as well?

I do not expect them to be good at the game in general. I do expect them to know their role within the game.
Many of the leads have been in their roles since beta, and they seem to have lost their joy in being a part of the game.
This may also be the longest I’ve ever seen a dev team leadership stay static for any game. I would probably be upset too, if they was no career progression in 11 years.

A weakness of knowledge was shown that would’ve been filled after 1 day in pvp. The pvp lead should have knowledge on how to PvP, as well the monetization lead should know how to pickpocket.