Do you think game devs should be good at thier own Games

Jaimeh

no

It depends on what you mean by 'good', because competency has many facets: a player can be knowledgeable about combat, game mechanics, classes, but they might not have good reaction times, environmental awareness, or generally be 'twitchy' enough... on the other hand you might have a someone who is super fast and twitchy but doesn't have comprehensive knowledge of the game... For devs as a minimum I'd expect them to have that deep knowledge and also play frequently to be well-versed in current meta, but I wouldn't expect them to be particularly skillful at combat in high levels, and I wouldn't mind that, as long as they have the aforementioned nuanced understanding of the game.

Aggrovious

yes

You need to KNOW how to play the game as a combat lead. Knowing how to play the game in PVE is essential because you can not perform your job function otherwise.

PVP, know one cares. Its up to the player to figure it out. Devs don't even play in Cyrodiil and balancing MMO PVP is a waste of any dev's time.

spartaxoxo

no

tom6143346 wrote: »

Is a Mechanik of a f1 car a good driver ? Probably not ! He just had a very good understanding of how the machine works. That said we shouldn’t always compare apples with bananas. And I am pretty sure a lead designer has his people that are good at the he game to get things checked out.

Absolutely. Most video game developer teams include a wide range of different skill sets. That's actually important to maintain because every player's experience is important. I'd be pretty surprised if ESO wasn't the same. That means devs who are awful and devs who are experts are both necessary to making a good game. If you don't have anyone who is garbage at the game on your team, how would you know what it feels like for players at the floor? A lot of those people are going to be newbies who are vital to a game's success.

LunaFlora

no

they develop the game and only certain parts of it.
they need to understand what they develop, but that doesn't require being "good" at the game.

An outfit style designer doesn't have to be amazing at making outfits in-game and a Combat designer doesn't have to be winning every Battlegrounds match.

Just like how i know to play drums, but i don't know how to make drums.

Danikat wrote: »

Some of the developers need to understand the game mechanics - if they're designing skills or encounters they need to understand how the underlying mechanics work. But even they don't need to be the best players, they don't need to be able to clear trials, only understand how it can be done.

Like the examples above. The world's best guitarist isn't going to be the best person to build an amazing guitar because that's an entirely different skillset. Meanwhile someone designing a guitar does need to know how one works but they don't actually need to be able to play it, just understand how it can be played.

i agree so much.

Personofsecrets

yes

I voted yes because I put myself in the position of game developer. What I can't imagine, as a developer, would be wanting to make some kind of alien game that I wouldn't be good at. Perhaps people end up involved in projects that they don't excel at due to the demands of the marketplace, but such possibility would then head into the area of the developer in question being unprincipled.

I think that people tend to design things that they are good at. It can too be that the game that the players think they are playing isn't the real game. For example, if someone seems like they aren't doing that well, but the game in question is casual, just for fun, and doesn't really matter, then that someone is completely in line with being good at the game. And if a designer is that someone, then they know the purpose of their game better than anyone else. Someone else coming in and imposing some other standard of what it means to be "good" in said game would be done without standing.

So again, yes, but it isn't necessarily obvious what being "good" entails in these situations. Games are extensions of the designers identities, so think twice before deciding if one is good at their own game or not.

DenverRalphy

no

They don't need to be good at the games they're developing. They just need to be familiar enough with the mechanics that they can reliably interpret gathered metric data when needed.

spartaxoxo

no

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On the topic of our developers, we’ve seen through the years commentary around expectations of developer skill levels, especially with the more competitive PVP and PVE content. It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game. We have a wide range of skills and interests on the team, just like within our community. We range from progression pushers to casual players and everything in between, and that allows us to account for all player types - not just the god-tier ones.

This goes for knowledge about the game, too. ESO is a huge game with a lot of remember and track. We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on. Spacing on a name of an ability while running a stream or taking part in an interview doesn't mean that developer doesn't know the game or skills. It means they’re human.

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

Also, I feel like this zos reply from another thread about the pvp stream seems quite relevant. So, I'll leave this here. I snipped to just the relevant part for this thread, so if you'd like to see the whole reply here's a link. I think both Kevin and Jessica's comments are good to read, so I'd definitely check out the whole thing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8225554#Comment_8225554

Thumbless_Bot

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

I don't think they should have mastery of 1vx, los or turn and burn mechanics, but they should know how that heavy attacks restore resources.

When I saw that, this is all I could think of... "oh my holy god"

XSTRONG

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

A game dev should understand the game and how it works, does it necessarily mean they need to be top tier players at the game? No I dont think so.

If I would see a Dev on stream in a dungeon that forgot to self heal and heavy attacks I dont care because I think the dungeons are great anyway.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Poor survey. Define good. Also you have a predetermined answer of your third option.

My opinion is developers should at least be competent in the areas they are responsible for and know how the game is played overall. By being competent I mean they should know how the skills work on the characters that they play and the classes they are responsible for developing. This does not mean they have to be monsters of DPS, healing or tanking but be able to hold their own in normal content.

For those that are responsible for higher level areas such as combat or graphics design I would expect them to have at least a workable knowledge of the various skills and a more in-depth knowledge of how skills are balanced. I would not expect them to know the specific numbers that would be required to make an in-depth answer to a real time question about the balancing of a defensive skill to an offensive one.

I also believe all developers whether they be designers, artists, basic functional code developers or graphics developers need to have regular play time on the production system with players. Even if it is not high end content such as veteran or hardmode raids. It is the only way to see how their product works under real world conditions and I think could have eliminated many player complaints about how functions and graphics get implemented. I also think it is good practice to require developers to spend some time in test as this usually provides a good cross product perspective they don't see working in their specific piece of the code.

AzuraFan

no

No. And while they should consider feedback, that's all they should do. We're players, not designers.

Alaztor91

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

I don't necessarily expect them to be ''good'' at the game, but they should understand how the game works.

Like, I don't expect to see a Combat Dev 1vXing players in PvP or soloing vDLC dungeons in PvE for example, but I do expect them to have knowledge about the game when implementing changes to stuff like skills or sets.

the1andonlyskwex

What is your definition of "good"? They probably need to be competent, but they certainly don't need to be top-tier. I'm not sure how best to quantify it for PvP, but for PvE I would expect them to be able to clear any content in the game (not necessarily easily).

Edit to add: This is just for the people responsible for balance and encounter design. People like artists, writers and programmers shouldn't even need to play the game, let alone be good at it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

no

Whilst a developer doesn't 'need' to be good at the game they create and neither should they always listen to the top end playerbase ignoring all feedback and not communicating actively harms the game.

IMO the game has been made worse (in terms of cyrodiil and combat) since launch. Everything from the Thieves guild onwards has been a downgrade in gameplay with broken gear sets and poor balancing. Hybridisation whilst nice for new players has significantly reduced class identity and build variety. A lot of those suggestions which caused these problems came from some streamers and 'class reps' who whilst they understood the mechanics of their class (for the most part) were mostly unable to see the wider impact of suggestions on playstyles they didn't engage with.

fizzylu

yes

I feel like everyone knows why this poll happened and are really avoiding the main point of it by the generalization of the word "devs".... but anyway, haha.

Not talking like some hardcore top player type nonsense, but.... in a game like ESO, a lot of "being good" or "being bad" at it really comes down to understanding the game. Understanding how the combat fundamentally works. Understanding how to use skills and counter them. Understanding how to build your own "class" with base stats, abilities, CP, etc to reach a certain level of power/health/defense that is necessary for certain content AND to fulfill a certain role(s).

So in that sense, yes.... I do expect devs (who are being paid to create something for paying costumers) that make calls about how the combat works and is balanced, sets, skill lines with active abilities, changes to existing+new types of content where combat is the main focus (especially PvP based) to be "good" at the game they are impacting the gameplay experience of.
I think that's quite reasonable and I question how someone who didn't know that information would be considered qualified for managing those areas of a game.

That being said, I'm also not going to assume that because of one stream that this applies to anyone at Zenimax just because a dev played a build that's the perfect example one of the things PvP players are tired of seeing/playing with and against. I've also just come to the conclusion awhile ago, and had it cemented as factual in my mind by the BG update, that Zenimax devs just have an entirely different definition of "fun" compared to me, many other players, and lots of gamers in general.... and I think it's been obvious for years now that Zenimax does with ESO what Zenimax wants to do. We're just here to give them our money anyway (well, not me now at least. I've been giving my money to New World the past couple weeks).

MJallday

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So, should all players be required to get good at the game as well?

I do not expect them to be good at the game in general. I do expect them to know their role within the game.
Many of the leads have been in their roles since beta, and they seem to have lost their joy in being a part of the game.
This may also be the longest I’ve ever seen a dev team leadership stay static for any game. I would probably be upset too, if they was no career progression in 11 years.

A weakness of knowledge was shown that would’ve been filled after 1 day in pvp. The pvp lead should have knowledge on how to PvP, as well the monetization lead should know how to pickpocket.

what evidence is here that people have stayed in role or the dev team is static? i dont think this is true. you wouldnt know that. noone would, except ZOS.

Varana

no but thier need to listen to poeple that are good/understand the game

Game designers should be knowledgable about what they're designing.

A lot of high-tier gameplay, be it PvE or PvP, comes down to practice and skill. Muscle memory, reflexes, training. Do I expect game designers to have that? No. It's not necessary to understand the game mechanics, although you do need someone on the team who has that experience, and to listen to them.

But you have to understand how all the parts work together, at least at a higher level. You need to know what the main points of contention are. When playing, saying "I should do X now but I'm too slow / realised too late / didn't think about it in the moment" is absolutely fine. But "I should do X now" needs to happen at some point. Or when watching someone else play, realising "they do X now, because Y" is what is important, not to be able to do it yourself, necessarily.

I_killed_Vivec

I can't see how anyone could design a combat system without constantly trying it out as features are implemented.

What does it look like?

How does it "feel"? Is it clunky, or does combat flow?

Does it reward skill, or just hammering buttons as fast as you can?

Do the synergies between different skills work out in a meaningful, yet balanced, way?

Is it fun?

But do you have to be "good"? Again, I can't see how you wouldn't get good if you are trying out all the features as they are developed, particularly if you are thinking about the questions I just raised.

I suppose you could just watch others play, testing different aspects of the game. And I'd expect a lot of different people would be involved doing just that. But surely, before you signed off the code, you'd have to take a couple of chars out for a few days to see what it's like to be a player...

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After review of this thread, we have decided it is best to close it down due to being non-constructive. When creating threads on our forums, we ask that they be civil, constructive, and kept within the Community Rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.