Return the Nightblade's cloak to its original state, because update 44 is ***

TDVM

No, he's good now, just get used to it.

StihlReign

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Cloak is now a PvE role-play ability. It has been significantly adjusted to improve the ability for role-playing and PvE players.

??? It's extremely strong in pvp as well you can perma clock im sitting 10k damage on my bomber now just waiting to pop out to blow up groups

Yea...hey I get it, I helped create and develop that playstyle but stopped playing bomber a few years ago. Bombers really just need an invis pot, they don't really fight and discovery just kills them 90% of the time anyway. It was fun with 24-48 people before the prox det nerfs...now not so much, at least for me.

If Cyro pop wore Zoals and put CP in Slippery for 24 hours most bombers would quit. It's just so ez to kill them with the set and it's guaranteed AP at the bridge.

Zoal the Ever-Wakeful

(1 item) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(2 items) When you Break Free, you release a wave of Watcher energy, causing enemies within 8 meters of you to become Feared for 3 seconds. You also gain 34 Weapon and Spell Damage for each enemy hit, up to 6 enemies, for 7 seconds.

Fitness Tree | ESO Champion Points - Slippery

When you are affected by a disabling effect, you automatically Break Free for no cost. After using this effect, you become Winded and cannot trigger this effect or others like it for 21 seconds.


We're discussing NBs that use Cloak. Moving in an out of combat interactions while using cloak in Cyro is a death sentence for NB.

My Take: Toggle Cloak is a concept, that works like garbage in practice. It shouldn't have been released without significant testing, commentary and feedback.

As I said on PTS - it's just going to push NBs to make high burst groups or gankers to be viable in PvP, and NBs shouldn't be relegated to designing ways to one-shot burst kill to be viable.

Vulkunne

I'm voting to put it back to the way it was. Why. (Note that I predicted from the very beginning that this would be expensive and cause misery for stam blades).

Not trying to tear this idea apart, but this may not be the best time for a change like this and it certainly does not benefit the masses in any way that I can see. Special interests can leverage the change but only because we were looking for something like it.

katanagirl1

Vulkunne wrote: »

I'm voting to put it back to the way it was. Why. (Note that I predicted from the very beginning that this would be expensive and cause misery for stam blades).

Not trying to tear this idea apart, but this may not be the best time for a change like this and it certainly does not benefit the masses in any way that I can see. Special interests can leverage the change but only because we were looking for something like it.

This is my concern, the magicka cost went up, right? We don’t have the patch yet so I can’t check.

I guess my stamblade has to pop magicka potions now to steal? I mean it would be crazy to use a magblade for stealing.

endorphinsplox

ikillforskooma wrote: »

Dear, do you play pvp?

He does sometimes, but he thinks the necro damage pets are DOT and generally doesn't understand the concept of what is and isn't a DOT in ESO terms.

As for the topic, this change to cloak is just unnecessary and kinda weird. Damage for PvE is an interesting idea but its kinda hard to justify slotting it for group content. For PvP its a complete mess. It hurts sustain but not enough to kill skilled gankers off, and instead just increases the skill gap in NBs which was already pretty wide since countering stealth is super easy already and playing stealth was already fairly tough. One-shot gankers will continue to exist no-doubt, but they'll probably be best served by swapping entirely to ranged attacks and ganking people from so far away there's even less potential to counter them.

Wasn't broken, shouldn't have tried to fix it. And if you struggle to counter cloak, you simply don't understand this game.

BixenteN7Akantor

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

ikillforskooma wrote: »

Who even plays pve on the nightblade when there is an arcanist?

Everyone who isn't in endgame, plus healers.

Cloak + wild hunt ring means I can run past the mobs and get to the next quest objective easier.
I wouldn't mind this change if it didn't disable magic recovery while active.

It disables Magicka Recovery, not Restore Magicka. Work with that

Vulkunne

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I'm voting to put it back to the way it was. Why. (Note that I predicted from the very beginning that this would be expensive and cause misery for stam blades).

Not trying to tear this idea apart, but this may not be the best time for a change like this and it certainly does not benefit the masses in any way that I can see. Special interests can leverage the change but only because we were looking for something like it.

This is my concern, the magicka cost went up, right? We don’t have the patch yet so I can’t check.

I guess my stamblade has to pop magicka potions now to steal? I mean it would be crazy to use a magblade for stealing.

Yes. This is something that will probably break the NB class. Cloak is expensive and unwieldly in fast-paced PvP situations. It's basically not worth using and makes the NB not worth playing because its not a NB anymore. Its a Dragon Blade, its a Sorc Blade, its anything else than what it was supposed to be. I think this is a terrible change for casuals who will find this almost impossible to use reliably and stam blades who are going to choke trying to use this with PvP. Its just doesn't work which I suspect was the intent. First one cloak morph was removed, then the passive duration increase was removed, now they're cutting into the only cloak skill left in the game. Its sad because many people including myself enjoyed using this class because we had options. Just imagine trying to fight some of these Sorcs without a reliable cloak now. Yeah no thanks. So I'd expect either the NB class or game itself to lose all of us who enjoyed playing the NB... as we liked. I'm not sure why this change was made because it screws over many NB players and basically eliminates an entire play-style from the game.

Chilly-McFreeze

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I'm voting to put it back to the way it was. Why. (Note that I predicted from the very beginning that this would be expensive and cause misery for stam blades).

Not trying to tear this idea apart, but this may not be the best time for a change like this and it certainly does not benefit the masses in any way that I can see. Special interests can leverage the change but only because we were looking for something like it.

This is my concern, the magicka cost went up, right? We don’t have the patch yet so I can’t check.

I guess my stamblade has to pop magicka potions now to steal? I mean it would be crazy to use a magblade for stealing.

...

This was a great first paragraph until you succumbed to class bashing. The thing that gutted everything special about classes in the first place.

LadyLethalla

For many years I've done a daily in IC for the Merit, which I used to buy Timbercrow runeboxes to sell. After trying the "new, improved!" Shadowy Disguise I've concluded that because I cannot uncrouch to get my magicka back and it drains away like stamina does when sprinting and the only way to "toggle" it off is to dodge roll, thereby exposing myself to enemy players... I've determined that it's no longer worth it.

Thanks. Another straw.

Xarc

Not sure if PVE players use cloak more than PVP players, but oh well.

On the other hand, regarding the cost/stop of magicka regen, haven't you encountered a slight bug which considerably slows down, at certain times, the magic regen even once you are in sight and you are not in combat?

ikillforskooma

PVE players were simply too lazy to press the button every three seconds to do their dirty deeds
They whined so much on the forum that the ability was changed
For what? Why? What was the problem anyway?
I personally don't understand
Was it hard to spam the cloak?
Then I’m scared to imagine how you deal with light and heavy attacks, where you need to press the buttons several times a second xD
A banal sprint at stage 4 of vampirism is now much more profitable than this ability
All Nightblades from the top 100 Cyrodiil players are against this change
Аt least from the European server
It pains me to see how cool players from both my and enemy alliances began to run around in moronic tank builds on new characters like dragon knights and wardens

noneatza

PvE nightblade here that doesn't PvP, i absolutely love the new change and this single change makes nb's at skill ceiling competitive(if not better) than arcs in endgame content. Sorry for everyone who's into pvp but the change is a godsend for pve players.

Renato90085

Zos can use other bad skills (Mark/Blur) to fix pve endgame nb problem
But they chose to kill the s-tier pvp night blade by the way.
and first week patch they say it not finished..
The last skill that was forced to change before it was completed was the Necromancer’s Sacrificial Bones.(now still not completed
So I think this will last at least half a year to more than a year

Roztlin45

it should have been a morph option. For players to use cloak the way they want. This "let them eat cake" attitude is out of hand.

LadyLethalla

noneatza wrote: »

PvE nightblade here that doesn't PvP, i absolutely love the new change and this single change makes nb's at skill ceiling competitive(if not better) than arcs in endgame content. Sorry for everyone who's into pvp but the change is a godsend for pve players.

How is it better for PVE...?

Vulkunne

noneatza wrote: »

PvE nightblade here that doesn't PvP, i absolutely love the new change and this single change makes nb's at skill ceiling competitive(if not better) than arcs in endgame content. Sorry for everyone who's into pvp but the change is a godsend for pve players.

Exactly. I didn't say this but its a PvE tool basically. But that's what doesn't make any sense to me. Its rich for them to just decide out of the no where to do this and throw virtually every NB PvP player under the bus. As others have said, all of us are not gankers. Its like, first they took away the dispel from cloak, then the resource gain from potion passive, then took away the cloak duration passive, then the other cloak morph, then they vastly buffed the detect range on pots and now this. In some ways the detect buff alone killed the cloak.

But as far as this change is concerned tts not the change itself as much as the impact from it. I know people don't like reading my posts as much as some, but a large portion of NB game play has been wiped out of PvP in one fell swoop. Like I said, regardless of what people think about my approach to this topic there will be consequences and I think PvP is going to suffer greatly because I will not be there and I will not pay to have my class and the things I enjoy so spitefully pulled from this game when its been around for years and there's no reason to do something like this.

Vulkunne

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

I'm voting to put it back to the way it was. Why. (Note that I predicted from the very beginning that this would be expensive and cause misery for stam blades).

Not trying to tear this idea apart, but this may not be the best time for a change like this and it certainly does not benefit the masses in any way that I can see. Special interests can leverage the change but only because we were looking for something like it.

This is my concern, the magicka cost went up, right? We don’t have the patch yet so I can’t check.

I guess my stamblade has to pop magicka potions now to steal? I mean it would be crazy to use a magblade for stealing.

...

This was a great first paragraph until you succumbed to class bashing. The thing that gutted everything special about classes in the first place.

I'm not bashing any class except for perhaps Sorc. They're eating good while uh the class that I liked, again, been this way for years, its signature power weathered over time and now its basically not playable in PvP. Not as it was, I mean lets call it a Dragon Night now. There you go new class. I just don't understand why do so much harm to one class, I mean given how NB is used in PvP alot is this really a shot at PvP itself? As a case in point, look what they did to the Necro and Templar. Neither of those classes have... 'felt' the same since. They just feel like they're missing something. Like going out in the cold and not buttoning your jacket.

BXR_Lonestar

Poll is biased.

Where's the option for "I need to try it before I make an opinion?"

The bottom line is that I can see this as feeling aweful if you play it as is without making adjustments. But I have a few ideas in mind to lessen its impact so I'll wait and see and play it before I make any decisions.

ikillforskooma

I created a new poll with a compromise offer for both sides

BasP

LadyLethalla wrote: »

noneatza wrote: »

PvE nightblade here that doesn't PvP, i absolutely love the new change and this single change makes nb's at skill ceiling competitive(if not better) than arcs in endgame content. Sorry for everyone who's into pvp but the change is a godsend for pve players.

How is it better for PVE...?

Casting it gives you a 10% damage done bonus to monsters for 10 seconds. Using it also incentivizes being a Stage 2 Vampire so that you'll benefit from the Strike from the Shadows passive (your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds when you leave Invisibility), and at that point you could also consider using Simmering Frenzy/ Sated Fury to further increase your DPS.

Chilly-McFreeze

BasP wrote: »

LadyLethalla wrote: »

noneatza wrote: »

PvE nightblade here that doesn't PvP, i absolutely love the new change and this single change makes nb's at skill ceiling competitive(if not better) than arcs in endgame content. Sorry for everyone who's into pvp but the change is a godsend for pve players.

How is it better for PVE...?

Casting it gives you a 10% damage done bonus to monsters for 10 seconds. Using it also incentivizes being a Stage 2 Vampire so that you'll benefit from the Strike from the Shadows passive (your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds when you leave Invisibility), and at that point you could also consider using Simmering Frenzy/ Sated Fury to further increase your DPS.

A PvE buff that would have been very possible without gutting a decent amount of PvP playstyles.
When you trigger any attack cloak gets untoggled anyway. So it being a toggle isn't doing much for that at all.
There were so many more sensible ideas on how to tune down cloaking in PvP, yet they went for the sledgehammer approach.
If at least they wouldn't have added a "double cost" by halting mag rec during moving.

endorphinsplox

noneatza wrote: »

PvE nightblade here that doesn't PvP, i absolutely love the new change and this single change makes nb's at skill ceiling competitive(if not better) than arcs in endgame content. Sorry for everyone who's into pvp but the change is a godsend for pve players.

Fellow PvE NB main here, this comment is fairly inaccurate. To say that NB can become competitive with Arc or even perform better than them with this change is extremely unrealistic. Arcs do more damage overall, with half the APM requirements, and in a huge AOE, whereas NBs are a single-target class with front loaded burst and spamming cloak every 10 seconds furthers the skill ceiling while also requiring a new dedicated skill slot which are already a precious commodity on NBs who have been underperforming for ages with one of the worst in-class spammables, an unreliable burst skill that can at times reduce damage output in certain fights if used due to the sacrificing of its unique passive damage bonus, and an overall lack of group support in the DPS role especially since hybridization killed the need for Minor Savagery.

To be fair, my DPS did see a noticeable increase when adding Shadowy Disguise to my rotation, but it came at the cost of dropping my self heal, and thus was only increasing my damage in dummy parses. I have yet to attempt this in content because this game has repeatedly proven that its not worth my time to do the testing since they refuse to listen to feedback from actually experienced players who put in that time in the first place. Disdain for this change during the PTS cycle greatly outweighed positive feedback, but it went live anyways, with the minor adjustment of not killing off Magicka Recovery while standing still, which again, means that this change does nothing but widen the skill gap between players by increasing the skill ceiling for an already underperforming class in PvE, and increasing the skill ceiling in PvP while not affecting the overall capability of the class.

They should not have changed this at all, and it displays an egregious misunderstanding of how this game functions.

HowTaoBrownCow

I vote for either returning it to its prior state, or having the new toggle just be one of the morphs.

I wouldn't mind the toggle so much if it didn't block magicka regen. But I'm a PVE guy, I've been playing since the beta, and my first and oldest character is a stamina nightblade. I've done some PVP, and I enjoyed it well enough, but it's not really my thing.

What *is* my thing is avoiding combat entirely; taking my sneaky stamina nightblade, or either of my two magicka nightblades, and doing various dailies or quests and just sneaking my way past all the creatures to get to the objective, getting the thing, and getting out. If I want to fight, I have DPS guys I use for that, and they're happy to mow through a delve slaughtering anything that moves. But the thing I love most is just running through, hitting the Shadow Cloak button every three seconds like I'm breathing, and having a nice relaxing run. It's meditative.

And I'm not the only one. I have two family members that I play with who do the same thing, in pretty much the same way. This is obviously a very YMMV sort of thing, but from the comments above we're clearly not the only ones who like conflict-free, sneaky runs.

This change doesn't make this sort of run impossible... but it makes it more stressful. Now I have to constantly watch the magicka bar to make sure I'm not running out. Take a potion when it gets low. Stop periodically, explicitly decloak, and wait for my magicka to regenerate (especially my stamina guy, who just doesn't have the starting pool of magicka and runs out way sooner). When something goes wrong, and the cloak is broken, it's not super obvious what my cloak state is now... and I struggle to hit my cloak button *exactly* once, because if a hit it more than once in a reflex panic, I decloak again.

This has turned one of my favorite things in the game into another source of stress. Can I still do the quest objective? Sure. But I'm more likely to just take a DPS guy in, to blindly kill everything in my path instead of dealing with the worry about managing my cloak state and my magicka pool.

I can't say I'm optimistic about ZOS returning Shadow Cloak to it's non-toggle behavior, or making it just one of the morphs. But I really, *really* want them to. I just want this thing back that I loved. :-(

katanagirl1

HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »

I vote for either returning it to its prior state, or having the new toggle just be one of the morphs.

I wouldn't mind the toggle so much if it didn't block magicka regen. But I'm a PVE guy, I've been playing since the beta, and my first and oldest character is a stamina nightblade. I've done some PVP, and I enjoyed it well enough, but it's not really my thing.

What *is* my thing is avoiding combat entirely; taking my sneaky stamina nightblade, or either of my two magicka nightblades, and doing various dailies or quests and just sneaking my way past all the creatures to get to the objective, getting the thing, and getting out. If I want to fight, I have DPS guys I use for that, and they're happy to mow through a delve slaughtering anything that moves. But the thing I love most is just running through, hitting the Shadow Cloak button every three seconds like I'm breathing, and having a nice relaxing run. It's meditative.

And I'm not the only one. I have two family members that I play with who do the same thing, in pretty much the same way. This is obviously a very YMMV sort of thing, but from the comments above we're clearly not the only ones who like conflict-free, sneaky runs.

This change doesn't make this sort of run impossible... but it makes it more stressful. Now I have to constantly watch the magicka bar to make sure I'm not running out. Take a potion when it gets low. Stop periodically, explicitly decloak, and wait for my magicka to regenerate (especially my stamina guy, who just doesn't have the starting pool of magicka and runs out way sooner). When something goes wrong, and the cloak is broken, it's not super obvious what my cloak state is now... and I struggle to hit my cloak button *exactly* once, because if a hit it more than once in a reflex panic, I decloak again.

This has turned one of my favorite things in the game into another source of stress. Can I still do the quest objective? Sure. But I'm more likely to just take a DPS guy in, to blindly kill everything in my path instead of dealing with the worry about managing my cloak state and my magicka pool.

I can't say I'm optimistic about ZOS returning Shadow Cloak to it's non-toggle behavior, or making it just one of the morphs. But I really, *really* want them to. I just want this thing back that I loved. :-(

Yes, you have described my playstyle for my stamblade perfectly. If I want to fight, I use my arcanist.

I suppose I could consider increasing my magicka pool on my thieving build, and leave the dps build as it is, but it would affect sneaking by having a smaller stamina pool and it is just soul crushing to get another nerf to stamblade. The class used to have good dps, but was a hard class to play with relentless focus, and yet some players (not me) could make something out of nothing and actually do good, so it was nerfed heavily and repeatedly. Then relentless focus was changed for the better operationally, but with a permanent red glow that was deemed “working as intended” even though no other class skill worked that way. Now this cloak change doesn’t affect dps but makes thieving a pain. I guess my main has been consigned to a desk job as manager for my alts now and can no longer go out in the field and do any work.

I don’t PvP with my stamblades but they are getting gutted because of a few whiners on the forums who can’t be bothered to slot revealing flare or detect potions and get bent out of shape because they got ganked or bombed. I really don’t understand how ZOS decides which players to listen to.

ikillforskooma

yes guys, I completely agree with you
it would be great if the switch was just one of the morphs
like this for example

HowTaoBrownCow

ikillforskooma wrote: »

yes guys, I completely agree with you
it would be great if the switch was just one of the morphs
like this for example

Alas, the flattening of internet text means I'm not sure if you're being sincere or sarcastic.

So, my apologies if I'm misunderstanding you, but what you're highlighting is that the ability morphs are either invisibility with a toggle, or no invisibility. I confess that I never understood the use of the healing morph of Shadow Cloak: there are *so* many abilities you can use to heal yourself in this game, and only one ability that does invisibility. To toss that aspect of it for yet another heal never made sense to me. Maybe other people like it, I don't know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, to make the invisibility toggle optional, they'd have to redefine the non-invisibility morph to restore invisibility to it.

I'm not holding my breath. But that's what would be required.

ikillforskooma

To be honest, I don’t understand how this ability could be converted in a programming language
And I never use the second shadow morph either.
But I often meet players who do just that.
And I think if the healing morph is touched, the forum will turn into a trash heap of nightblades whining about the shadow xD

Sturmfaenger

There's this nice word in german that describes what happened: "verschlimmbessern". Means "trying to make something better but actually making it worse".
It was good as it was.
I wish they had kept their fingers away from it.

SundarahFr3akinrican

I am a nightblade, have only ever played nightblade. I pvp with stam nightblade and i am above average i would say at pvp. This new version of cloak is so much better. I do not want it to go back.

Chilly-McFreeze

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I am a nightblade, have only ever played nightblade. I pvp with stam nightblade and i am above average i would say at pvp. This new version of cloak is so much better. I do not want it to go back.

Whats your prefered playstyle as pvp stamblade?