Rip Maelstrom 2Hander?

Sluggy

I haven't bothered to log on to see what the numbers look like but I'm sure they can't be good. As soon as I read it I realized I might as well decon the item and disassemble my flurry sorc and templar that were both using it. Outside of orgnized 12-person raids I can't really see much use for this item now. Did any one else get that vibe?

BananaBender

I see it as a buff for 90% of the builds

YandereGirlfriend

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

Theist_VII

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/667020/yet-another-templar-nerf#latest

Necrotech_Master

i personally stopped using it when they removed the bleed dot it used to do lol, didnt really like the new version (and with the new changes its definitely not improving)

SkaraMinoc

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

It's a nerf if you were running Asylum Staff as well. Maelstrom 2H + Draugrkin + Asylum Staff hits really hard.

YandereGirlfriend

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i personally stopped using it when they removed the bleed dot it used to do lol, didnt really like the new version (and with the new changes its definitely not improving)

Same here.

I used that thing along with Dro'Zakar (to be clear, NOT in PvP) because it was one of the few supplementary Bleed sources in the game. Then it was randomly snatched away. Yet here we are, still playing and (I hope) enjoying the game (for the most part).

Which is perhaps another way of saying... whenever these big set changes come in and they're decried as the end of the world... it really isn't. It's perhaps the end of the specific thing that you were doing, and that's not fun, but there's always another thing out there to try.

I feel bad for the 'Plars and those holding it down with Flurry in 2024 but everyone will find something new to build with.

Sluggy

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

In my case I was stacking entirely into instances of damage. Getting ~500+ damage per source was absolutely massive. Especially when it didn't require me to run any other sets or jewelry glyphs that increased Spell/Weapon damage. Flurry alone was being buffed by up to 2k damage if all four strikes landed.

MashmalloMan

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

It's still a strong bonus, but it's pretty obvious why it needed a nerf, it wasn't just good on flurry/jabs setups. As a comparison, MA Destro gives 1250 once a second. MA 2H gave up to 560, all you had to do was deal at least 2.23 direct damage hits a second to match, lets just say 3/s total required to exceed.

• 1/s is already covered from light attack weaving.
• 1/s will be covered by most abilities as they tend to have a direct damage hit on cast depending on if you pick them correctly. Eg. Twin Slashes instead of Degeneration.
• 1/s for common abilities like Sorc's 3x pets auto attacks, Warden's Bear auto attack, Templar's Burning Light.
• 1/s for all enchants 1-2 of them via 4s CD, most status effect procs for Chilled, Diseased, Concussed, Overcharged, and Sundered.

Those 4 things cover at least 2.23 or 3 times a second.. For some setups, it was close to 5-6 times a second, like Sorc, highly inflating their PVE DPS especially when you pair in Flurry/Jabs/Force Pulse/Wield Soul + Sorc Script/Bound Armaments/Haunting Curse/Atronach, etc. Now you consider how the buff isn't attached to an aoe dot you can walk out of, it buffs your character and improves low scaling direct damage like status effects by effectively doubling them, and you can see why it was so strong.

All that said, very sad to see it go. I really liked how it made you think about your build, I'm very much apposed to boring % multipliers that ZOS seem to like to source on everything instead of unique bonuses and interactions that are fun to build around. All it needed was a slight nerf to make it harder to hit the value I just outlined of 3x a second.

Also, this was not a PVP nerf, it's clearly a PVE nerf, very few people waste a slot on a gap closer, let alone an entire 2P set bonus as well. The set is used on like 6/7 classes for PVE DPS if you look up any parse video over the past 2-3 years it's behaved this way.

Sluggy

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

It's still a strong bonus, but it's pretty obvious why it needed a nerf, it wasn't just good on flurry/jabs setups. As a comparison, MA Destro gives 1250 once a second. MA 2H gave up to 560, all you had to do was deal at least 2.23 direct damage hits a second to match, lets just say 3/s total required to exceed.

• 1/s is already covered from light attack weaving.
• 1/s will be covered by most abilities as they tend to have a direct damage hit on cast depending on if you pick them correctly. Eg. Twin Slashes instead of Degeneration.
• 1/s for common abilities like Sorc's 3x pets auto attacks, Warden's Bear auto attack, Templar's Burning Light.
• 1/s for all enchants 1-2 of them via 4s CD, most status effect procs for Chilled, Diseased, Concussed, Overcharged, and Sundered.

Those 4 things cover at least 2.23 or 3 times a second.. For some setups, it was close to 5-6 times a second, like Sorc, highly inflating their PVE DPS especially when you pair in Flurry/Jabs/Force Pulse/Wield Soul + Sorc Script/Bound Armaments/Haunting Curse, etc. Now you consider how the buff isn't attached to an aoe dot you can walk out of, it buffs your character and improves low scaling direct damage like status effects by effectively doubling them, and you can see why it was so strong.

All that said, very sad to see it go. I really liked how it made you think about your build, I'm very much apposed to boring % multipliers that ZOS seem to like to source on everything instead of unique bonuses and interactions that are fun to build around. All it needed was a slight nerf to make it harder to hit the value I just outlined of 3x a second.

To be fair, it's not like it was trivial to kill people with the setup. You need to use probably the single most clunky skill in the game as a gap closer and then pray that your barswap actually works. Then you need your opponent to hang tight for at least another two seconds while you get a good head of steam all while being completely unable to block or bash and being pretty easy to read. Dodge basically negates flurry entirely and even if you just block it reduces most of the damage to nothing. Yeah, it can hit super hard but you really have to move fast and it's basically impossible to combo it with any kind of meaningful stun. It's also excptionally hard to use when being chased by multiple people.

Then there's scribing. Since that stuff has come out and people have started to aquire it the amount of damage and defense that someone with access to that DLC has really started to pull ahead. I think this item was a good tradeoff between risk and reward but it's getting harder and harder to keep up with previously existing gear and skills and I just don't see the value in using it now when I know it's not going to outpace a single-use skill that gives huge shields or does a large delayed AoE burst of damage.

MashmalloMan

Sluggy wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

It's still a strong bonus, but it's pretty obvious why it needed a nerf, it wasn't just good on flurry/jabs setups. As a comparison, MA Destro gives 1250 once a second. MA 2H gave up to 560, all you had to do was deal at least 2.23 direct damage hits a second to match, lets just say 3/s total required to exceed.

• 1/s is already covered from light attack weaving.
• 1/s will be covered by most abilities as they tend to have a direct damage hit on cast depending on if you pick them correctly. Eg. Twin Slashes instead of Degeneration.
• 1/s for common abilities like Sorc's 3x pets auto attacks, Warden's Bear auto attack, Templar's Burning Light.
• 1/s for all enchants 1-2 of them via 4s CD, most status effect procs for Chilled, Diseased, Concussed, Overcharged, and Sundered.

Those 4 things cover at least 2.23 or 3 times a second.. For some setups, it was close to 5-6 times a second, like Sorc, highly inflating their PVE DPS especially when you pair in Flurry/Jabs/Force Pulse/Wield Soul + Sorc Script/Bound Armaments/Haunting Curse, etc. Now you consider how the buff isn't attached to an aoe dot you can walk out of, it buffs your character and improves low scaling direct damage like status effects by effectively doubling them, and you can see why it was so strong.

All that said, very sad to see it go. I really liked how it made you think about your build, I'm very much apposed to boring % multipliers that ZOS seem to like to source on everything instead of unique bonuses and interactions that are fun to build around. All it needed was a slight nerf to make it harder to hit the value I just outlined of 3x a second.

To be fair, it's not like it was trivial to kill people with the setup. You need to use probably the single most clunky skill in the game as a gap closer and then pray that your barswap actually works. Then you need your opponent to hang tight for at least another two seconds while you get a good head of steam all while being completely unable to block or bash and being pretty easy to read. Dodge basically negates flurry entirely and even if you just block it reduces most of the damage to nothing. Yeah, it can hit super hard but you really have to move fast and it's basically impossible to combo it with any kind of meaningful stun. It's also excptionally hard to use when being chased by multiple people.

Then there's scribing. Since that stuff has come out and people have started to aquire it the amount of damage and defense that someone with access to that DLC has really started to pull ahead. I think this item was a good tradeoff between risk and reward but it's getting harder and harder to keep up with previously existing gear and skills and I just don't see the value in using it now when I know it's not going to outpace a single-use skill that gives huge shields or does a large delayed AoE burst of damage.

I edited my post for clarification, this comment was a PVE perspective, the main reason it was actually nerfed. Very few people used it in PVP, and it was performing fine there. It was overperforming in PVE.

I have a feeling this set was only nerfed this patch, especially so late into it because of 1 reason that I found day 1..

Shared Pain

You could effectively double the damage, and the proc has no cooldown, making it deal 20-30% of your dps against 1 target which would have become obscene in 1vX, still will be with other damage done sets, but those are way more tame and have heaftier requirements. Shared Pain has a really low tooltip on purpose, this set circumvented that balance decision.

Sluggy

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I edited my post for clarification, this comment was a PVE perspective, the main reason it was actually nerfed. Very few people used it in PVP, and it was performing fine there. It was overperforming in PVE.

I have a feeling this set was only nerfed this patch, especially so late into it because of 1 reason that I found day 1..

Shared Pain

You could effectively double the damage, and the proc has no cooldown, making it deal 20-30% of your dps against 1 target which would have become obscene in 1vX, still will be with other damage done sets, but those are way more tame and have heaftier requirements. Shared Pain has a really low tooltip on purpose, this set circumvented that balance decision.

Ah gotcha.

Runefang

BananaBender wrote: »

I see it as a buff for 90% of the builds

In what real sense is it a buff for 90% of builds though?

Plars, Sorcs and Wardens were performing decently with it, but were behind the main meta classes anyway. So its a nerf to the classes underperforming. Sorcs need a decent spammable like rapid strikes, which it nerfs. Wardens rely on chilled procs, which it nerfs. Plars rely on jabs which it nerfs.

Arcanists, Necros and MagDKs all rely heavily on DoTs so weren't using it much any way.

Nightblades are probably the only real beneficiaries of this buff.

Less than 20% of top 100 parses on esologs use the 2H anyway, so its not exactly overperforming in reality, even if it does on their spreadsheet in some very particular cases.

Theist_VII

Why do we need a second thread to talk about the same issues?

Tannus15

@Theist_VII I dunno, maybe because if you label it only about templars other classes might feel somewhat overlooked?

This is a huge nerf to sorcs. The vMA 2h is doing comparable dps to the other backbar weapons but it's worse to use with less cleave.

I can't think of a PVE situation where you're not better off just using the vMA bow or inferno staff.

Jestir

Theist_VII wrote: »

Why do we need a second thread to talk about the same issues?

If it's about the templar title and centric topic then I would think this one with the more general title (even if it's a low quality one) is a better overall thread for the discussion on the mael 2H nerf

Theist_VII

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Theist_VII I dunno, maybe because if you label it only about templars other classes might feel somewhat overlooked?

This is a huge nerf to sorcs. The vMA 2h is doing comparable dps to the other backbar weapons but it's worse to use with less cleave.

I can't think of a PVE situation where you're not better off just using the vMA bow or inferno staff.

I mentioned that in the comments within the thread, if you gave it a read, you would know that.

Theist_VII wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Maybe this nerf would help fix the lag because it was secretly putting too much strain on the servers

Oh it will improve the server performance!

There will be less Templars and Sorcerers on the game now, as they are nowhere near competitive in all forms of end-game content with that change.

The body of the OP is the vMA change.

But sure, we can have two separate threads for the devs to miss one or the other when reading our feedback.

Tannus15

don't get mad at me that you gave that thread a bad title.

Theist_VII

Tannus15 wrote: »

don't get mad at me that you gave that thread a bad title.

Who’s mad?

I’m enjoying the double standards within this forum

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666014/having-a-horrible-experience-this-week/p1

@ZOS_Hadeostry & @ZOS_Kevin

Varana

Theist_VII wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@Theist_VII I dunno, maybe because if you label it only about templars other classes might feel somewhat overlooked?

I mentioned that in the comments within the thread, if you gave it a read, you would know that.

I don't play Templar DDs. I don't even open threads about Templars except when they're about healing, because why would I? I don't care. So whatever you write in your post - it's the title that sticks.

gariondavey

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

It's still a strong bonus, but it's pretty obvious why it needed a nerf, it wasn't just good on flurry/jabs setups. As a comparison, MA Destro gives 1250 once a second. MA 2H gave up to 560, all you had to do was deal at least 2.23 direct damage hits a second to match, lets just say 3/s total required to exceed.

• 1/s is already covered from light attack weaving.
• 1/s will be covered by most abilities as they tend to have a direct damage hit on cast depending on if you pick them correctly. Eg. Twin Slashes instead of Degeneration.
• 1/s for common abilities like Sorc's 3x pets auto attacks, Warden's Bear auto attack, Templar's Burning Light.
• 1/s for all enchants 1-2 of them via 4s CD, most status effect procs for Chilled, Diseased, Concussed, Overcharged, and Sundered.

Those 4 things cover at least 2.23 or 3 times a second.. For some setups, it was close to 5-6 times a second, like Sorc, highly inflating their PVE DPS especially when you pair in Flurry/Jabs/Force Pulse/Wield Soul + Sorc Script/Bound Armaments/Haunting Curse/Atronach, etc. Now you consider how the buff isn't attached to an aoe dot you can walk out of, it buffs your character and improves low scaling direct damage like status effects by effectively doubling them, and you can see why it was so strong.

All that said, very sad to see it go. I really liked how it made you think about your build, I'm very much apposed to boring % multipliers that ZOS seem to like to source on everything instead of unique bonuses and interactions that are fun to build around. All it needed was a slight nerf to make it harder to hit the value I just outlined of 3x a second.

Also, this was not a PVP nerf, it's clearly a PVE nerf, very few people waste a slot on a gap closer, let alone an entire 2P set bonus as well. The set is used on like 6/7 classes for PVE DPS if you look up any parse video over the past 2-3 years it's behaved this way.

Hey man, it most certainly was a pvp nerf. I use it back bar on my rangeplar with draugrkin front bar, and back bar on my jabplar with 8400 spell damage (ravager, essence thief, gaze, magma 1pc).

Udrath

From what I can tell it was probably nerfed because it was buffing a new set being released called Shared Pain.

xylena_lazarow

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Theist_VII

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Why would anyone in PvP use this instead of a guaranteed 6% damage done to every attack you do and 6% less damage taken for free from Black Rose DW?

One is a universal backbar buff to a skill that is already great.

The other is a niché one that requires a skill not used in PvP, for a niché buff exclusively to direct damage.

This change is just bad, and doesn’t consider the rest of the arena weapons.

Thumbless_Bot

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Why would anyone in PvP use this instead of a guaranteed 6% damage done to every attack you do and 6% less damage taken for free from Black Rose DW?

One is a universal backbar buff to a skill that is already great.

The other is a niché one that requires a skill not used in PvP, for a niché buff exclusively to direct damage.

This change is just bad, and doesn’t consider the rest of the arena weapons.

Because its a two handed weapon. That's one reason. There are likely more.

Theist_VII

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Why would anyone in PvP use this instead of a guaranteed 6% damage done to every attack you do and 6% less damage taken for free from Black Rose DW?

One is a universal backbar buff to a skill that is already great.

The other is a niché one that requires a skill not used in PvP, for a niché buff exclusively to direct damage.

This change is just bad, and doesn’t consider the rest of the arena weapons.

Because it’s a two handed weapon. That's one reason. There are likely more.

They are talking about PvP.

With Scribing, you don’t need to back bar a 2h for Brutality/Sorcery any more.

MashmalloMan

gariondavey wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Depends upon what you're doing. +12% damage from a simple 2-piece is actually godly strong. There are infinite 5-piece sets that wish that they were even half that powerful. OTOH, it's a giga-nerf if someone was using it with Jabs, Flurry, etc.

It's still a strong bonus, but it's pretty obvious why it needed a nerf, it wasn't just good on flurry/jabs setups. As a comparison, MA Destro gives 1250 once a second. MA 2H gave up to 560, all you had to do was deal at least 2.23 direct damage hits a second to match, lets just say 3/s total required to exceed.

• 1/s is already covered from light attack weaving.
• 1/s will be covered by most abilities as they tend to have a direct damage hit on cast depending on if you pick them correctly. Eg. Twin Slashes instead of Degeneration.
• 1/s for common abilities like Sorc's 3x pets auto attacks, Warden's Bear auto attack, Templar's Burning Light.
• 1/s for all enchants 1-2 of them via 4s CD, most status effect procs for Chilled, Diseased, Concussed, Overcharged, and Sundered.

Those 4 things cover at least 2.23 or 3 times a second.. For some setups, it was close to 5-6 times a second, like Sorc, highly inflating their PVE DPS especially when you pair in Flurry/Jabs/Force Pulse/Wield Soul + Sorc Script/Bound Armaments/Haunting Curse/Atronach, etc. Now you consider how the buff isn't attached to an aoe dot you can walk out of, it buffs your character and improves low scaling direct damage like status effects by effectively doubling them, and you can see why it was so strong.

All that said, very sad to see it go. I really liked how it made you think about your build, I'm very much apposed to boring % multipliers that ZOS seem to like to source on everything instead of unique bonuses and interactions that are fun to build around. All it needed was a slight nerf to make it harder to hit the value I just outlined of 3x a second.

Also, this was not a PVP nerf, it's clearly a PVE nerf, very few people waste a slot on a gap closer, let alone an entire 2P set bonus as well. The set is used on like 6/7 classes for PVE DPS if you look up any parse video over the past 2-3 years it's behaved this way.

Hey man, it most certainly was a pvp nerf. I use it back bar on my rangeplar with draugrkin front bar, and back bar on my jabplar with 8400 spell damage (ravager, essence thief, gaze, magma 1pc).

I'm not saying it didn't hurt pvp builds that were using it, I'm saying it was nerfed because of pve where it dominated all dps builds. It was not a problem for pvp builds where it was rarely used.

MashmalloMan

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Why would anyone in PvP use this instead of a guaranteed 6% damage done to every attack you do and 6% less damage taken for free from Black Rose DW?

One is a universal backbar buff to a skill that is already great.

The other is a niché one that requires a skill not used in PvP, for a niché buff exclusively to direct damage.

This change is just bad, and doesn’t consider the rest of the arena weapons.

Majority of important damage done in pvp is direct damage, the fact that you get double that of BRP DW vs half for all damage like dots where it matters less is the definition of balanced to me. There's a reason most builds run both the direct damage reduction and increase 6% blue CP stars vs dot reduction/increase. Yeah you miss out on -6% reduction, but I suppose thats the idea behind it. I mean maybe it could be closer to 14%, but as 2P vs 5P, it's pretty dang good already.

Plus, BRP DW has fallen off hard because the buff only lasts for 2s, requires in combat for a skill you naturally prebuff with for up to 30s, and only works after you hit an enemy with the small 5m aoe. The uptime is much less than the potential 100% you can get from MA 2H. The obvious plus side is Major Evasion is great on any build and doesn't require 5 Medium to get, so Blade Cloak is really nice to have. Also MA 2H has a damage requirement..

I'd say there is decent pro's/con's both ways, but gap closers in general just aren't found on a lot of pvp builds and sacrificing a 2P set for it is more rare with sets like Wretched and Rallying Cry being so popular when you can do a 5/5/2 (monster)/1 (trainee)/1 (mythic) setup.

Thumbless_Bot

Theist_VII wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Why would anyone in PvP use this instead of a guaranteed 6% damage done to every attack you do and 6% less damage taken for free from Black Rose DW?

One is a universal backbar buff to a skill that is already great.

The other is a niché one that requires a skill not used in PvP, for a niché buff exclusively to direct damage.

This change is just bad, and doesn’t consider the rest of the arena weapons.

Because it’s a two handed weapon. That's one reason. There are likely more.

They are talking about PvP.

With Scribing, you don’t need to back bar a 2h for Brutality/Sorcery any more.

Yeah, I get that. I haven't used dual in years. The only issue I see is that you have to use a skill no one uses to get a buff... I mean, there might be a few people but it is definitely not everywhere.

Perhaps people that use two handed might opt for this as their gap closer after they've buffed their stamina pool by 20k so they can afford to use it once or twice per battle... 🤔

Aldoss

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why was this ever changed off the bleed dot? A million old sets that need help, instead let's change the VMA 2h a million times. At least maybe this iteration will be a good on a handful of PvP specs.

Why would anyone in PvP use this instead of a guaranteed 6% damage done to every attack you do and 6% less damage taken for free from Black Rose DW?

One is a universal backbar buff to a skill that is already great.

The other is a niché one that requires a skill not used in PvP, for a niché buff exclusively to direct damage.

This change is just bad, and doesn’t consider the rest of the arena weapons.

I mostly agree with you, but I also think @MashmalloMan has a good thought track that MA 2H is now doing for 2H what BRP DW has done for years. I'd still argue for most PvP cases that sourcing maj evasion AND an unnamed 6% dmg reduction is huge.

I tried MA 2H on my necro build last night and the tooltip unbuffed was 6% and I was able to boost it up to 9% with self sourced buffs. I'm sure other classes could somewhat easily get it to the 12% max. I had horrible sustain though, so if I were to use it, BRP DW is a clear win to me.

I think these are healthy choices for the game, but I agree that it's weird that this one set has been so drastically altered in such a short time.