Is it acceptable for zenimax to scour through your messages and take account actions at random?

Varana

No

I can imagine that storing chat somewhere, is required by some jurisdictions, at least for some time.

It might also be required to watch chat for actually illegal behaviour.

Swear words are not illegal. They shouldn't even trigger an automated report when used in a private setting. Restricting their usage in public spaces like zone chat may be something else, as that is tied to community building and experience.

Talking about illegal activities like killing, mass murder, or robbery, absolutely needs context - because those are activities which are actually the majority of ESO's core gameplay. And even other things that we don't do, can be okay in certain contexts, like roleplaying. Insults are okay in certain contexts, like among friends or towards heaps of pixels (a.k.a. NPCs). All of these need someone who knows about context - or asks about context - before taking action.

I'm betting a crate of beer that unfortunately, the customer "service" people who are reviewing flagged reports, are not properly equipped to take that context into account.
Maybe they don't get all the context from the system.
Or they don't speak English (or whatever other language is being used) as their first language.
Or they have to work through 20 reports a minute and don't have time to properly review each case.
Or they got the instruction to kill ban first, ask later.

In any case, my trust in this system is somewhere close to zero.

davidtk

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

davidtk wrote: »

[*] I literally only paid for a key that gives me access to this game's server, which is owned by ZoS.
[*] I agreed to the ToS before playing.

Or you could try hacking the game and setting up your own private servers where you are responsible for your own sensitive data and can do whatever you want there.

> Suggests that the concept of ownership and TOS matters
> Suggests hacking the game

???

> Yes, like other things in the online world where you paying for "service" not product itself
> I didn't saw any open free older versions of ESO that you can use for private servers like for good example: World of Warcraft

so ??? ???

Veryamedliel

Ingenon wrote: »

1. Is there a law in one or more countries requiring ZOS to monitor private chat in an M rated game for illegal acts?
2. Is there a law in one or more countries requiring ZOS to monitor private chat in an M rated game for strong language, sexual content?

There is no such thing as 'private chat'. Chat is chat. Period. The only difference for ZoS is the amount of people it reaches, but the rules don't (legally) change because of that.

As to your questions:
1: yes. Everywhere in the EU at any rate. Not sure about the US and other regions.
2. Law? No. Can a ToS legally state that strong/sexual language and the like is not allowed within the game? Yes. Their service, their rules (within the applicable law). Does the ToS state anything of the sort? Yes. Read the rules of conduct. Does ZoS break any law by stating such rules and enforcing said rules? Not that I know of.

LPapirius

No

n333rs wrote: »

Does ZOS have the right to police every letter typed into chat? Yes.
Should ZOS take action against players without a CS agent seeing the entire conversation and it's context? No.
Should ZOS ban people for foul language or a raunchy private chat conversation that was consensual? Absolutely not!

So ZOS isn't violating our rights, but the way they are going about this monitoring and the extremely high degree of erroneous bans proves ZOS isn't doing their monitoring correctly or respectfully.

davidtk

Yes

One interesting thing. In the world you are supervised by the authorities and your communication is monitored quite normally, either because of marketing (Google, Apple, M$ ... You have made your personal data available for the use of the purchased item) or because of possible terrorist attacks (Banking transactions, unencrypted communication, Even your ISP keeps logs of where you go on the internet). That doesn't bother anyone, but that you are monitored in a game where there is NO private chat, that bothers.

Ingenon

Veryamedliel wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

1. Is there a law in one or more countries requiring ZOS to monitor private chat in an M rated game for illegal acts?
2. Is there a law in one or more countries requiring ZOS to monitor private chat in an M rated game for strong language, sexual content?

There is no such thing as 'private chat'. Chat is chat. Period. The only difference for ZoS is the amount of people it reaches, but the rules don't (legally) change because of that.

As to your questions:
1: yes. Everywhere in the EU at any rate. Not sure about the US and other regions.
2. Law? No. Can a ToS legally state that no strong/sexual language and the like is not allowed within the game? Yes. Their service, their rules (within the applicable law). Does the ToS state anything of the sort? Yes. Read the rules of conduct. Does ZoS break any law by stating such rules and ZoS enforcing said rules? Not that I know of.

Thanks for the EU inputs! In my opinion then, ZOS should only monitor chat for illegal acts.

ZOS has provided a profanity filter. I have that turned on all the time. Also, I can block people in chat. Although it does not happen often, I use that when someone is spamming chat and every one of their messages is getting filtered by the profanity filter.

Toanis

AI requires a huge amount of computing power. ZOS using their own server capacity for AI would explain the current state of the game, with a noticable delay between pushing a key and the ability firing, with potions and weapon swapping having a 50:50 chance to work, overland enemies bringing you in combat before you even see them, and NPCs and players slowly loading in within 10-20 seconds after traveling to a quest hub.

But in reality, ZOS is not the FBI and AI is just the latest buzz word to describe systems that existed since the 1970's.

What the "AI" is likely doing is looking for messages that contain "bad words" and storing only those, instead of storing everything in case CS needs it later to look for evidence. Automatized banning is even worse for business than your own bot spamming your CS employees with false positives, so the only sane procedure is that after a player report, a CS person checks the CS bot records

LPapirius

No

Toanis wrote: »

AI requires a huge amount of computing power. ZOS using their own server capacity for AI would explain the current state of the game, with a noticable delay between pushing a key and the ability firing, with potions and weapon swapping having a 50:50 chance to work, overland enemies bringing you in combat before you even see them, and NPCs and players slowly loading in within 10-20 seconds after traveling to a quest hub.

But in reality, ZOS is not the FBI and AI is just the latest buzz word to describe systems that existed since the 1970's.

What the "AI" is likely doing is looking for messages that contain "bad words" and storing only those, instead of storing everything in case CS needs it later to look for evidence.

It might just be a coincidence that performance tanked about the same time bans based on chat began, but it's probably not. It sure looks like using this new AI chat bot is horribly impacting performance. It feels like ZOS is using ESO as a test bed for this new chat monitoring system and have a ton of bugs to work out still. Not the least of which is why is this chat bot impacting performance so heavily?

Syldras

Veryamedliel wrote: »

1: yes. Everywhere in the EU at any rate. Not sure about the US and other regions.

Which EU law is that? I'm wondering because the much discussed "chat control law" has been proposed, but it has not been adopted yet. There was a directive in 2021 which allowed for chat and email providers to scan for severe criminal content, but it was not mandatory.

Veryamedliel

Syldras wrote: »

Veryamedliel wrote: »

1: yes. Everywhere in the EU at any rate. Not sure about the US and other regions.

Which EU law is that? I'm wondering because the much discussed "chat control law" has been proposed, but it has not been adopted yet. There was a directive in 2021 which allowed for chat and email providers to scan for severe criminal content, but it was not mandatory.

It's covered under the Digital Service Act. It's a bit tricky though. While there's no requirement for scanning chat traffic per se, they can be held accountable if real-life criminal acts are actively discussed/promoted/planned etc on your platform. So in effect they have no choice but to monitor chat and act upon any valid suspicion that arises. And this also brings the GDPR into it. All this data has to be stored, secured, handled etc. There have to be people made responsible for the data, people have to be properly trained and whatnot. Trust me, they don't do this for the sheer fun of it, but because they must. If they don't, they risk the same thing the owner of Telegram currently being jailed in France (I think it was in France) faces right now.

And yes, ISP's and email providers and a few other exceptions are not forced to scan traffic/messages. Yet. Basically because most of them simply can't handle the amount of traffic to scan and, at the same time, complying with the GDPR. It's just too much data to shift through for most companies.

I'm fairly sure that'll change within a few years. Gmail and M$ are already scanning your drive, mail and your photo's for these -and other, more commercial- reasons. At the moment people using GMail can get banned for having a picture of their own child naked in a bathtub. It's considered child pron. In fact, this has happened a few times in the past. Since then they've changed a few things so that this is better monitored before acted upon. There are also appeal options now which weren't available before. They tried to force Apple to do it as well, but they have refused so far. They won't until there's actually an effective law forcing them to scan everything, and even then I'm sure they'll try to fight it. It's a only matter of time though.

Varana

No

davidtk wrote: »

That doesn't bother anyone, but that you are monitored in a game where there is NO private chat, that bothers.

That's nonsense. It bothers me and quite a lot of other people quite a lot, there's just not much people can do about it except use alternative tools when possible, and voice concerns about legislation.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Yes

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

People know that their communications on the internet are not secure. You are only fooling yourself if you have any expectations of privacy on the internet. By its very nature it is the transmission and reception of data, and by its transmission methods it can and most likely will be intercepted.

This is what I find strange.

Ever since I first got online, 20+ years ago, I realized that what I put out there is both pretty permanent AND not private.

Because I am using someone else's site to put those thoughts, whatever thoughts, out there, and every TOS I have seen has some clause about them storing those thoughts, and some even have clauses that say they can use the things you put on their website for advertising purposes.

I was *always* told to be careful of what I put online for this very reason.

As for an analogy, ESO is like going to ZOS's house for DnD and wanting to have a private conversation in a different room, when you have already been told all conversations are monitored in the house. It is ZOS's house, they can make their rules, as long as they comply with the laws of the countries they are available in, AND they can enforce those rules and change them when they want.

To me, this has always been the reality of using the internet and signing up for sites.

Veryamedliel

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

People know that their communications on the internet are not secure. You are only fooling yourself if you have any expectations of privacy on the internet. By its very nature it is the transmission and reception of data, and by its transmission methods it can and most likely will be intercepted.

This is what I find strange.

Ever since I first got online, 20+ years ago, I realized that what I put out there is both pretty permanent AND not private.

Because I am using someone else's site to put those thoughts, whatever thoughts, out there, and every TOS I have seen has some clause about them storing those thoughts, and some even have clauses that say they can use the things you put on their website for advertising purposes.

I was *always* told to be careful of what I put online for this very reason.

As for an analogy, ESO is like going to ZOS's house for DnD and wanting to have a private conversation in a different room, when you have already been told all conversations are monitored in the house. It is ZOS's house, they can make their rules, as long as they comply with the laws of the countries they are available in, AND they can enforce those rules and change them when they want.

To me, this has always been the reality of using the internet and signing up for sites.

Well said. Couldn't have put it better myself. I teach my kids the exact same thing.

spartaxoxo

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Equating 1984 with signing up to play a game that tells you that it is logging your actions in order to protect themselves is missing the plot.

You have no expectation of privacy on the internet. Someone, somewhere has access to everything you watch, say and do They even tell you that they are keeping that information. Your ISP even tells you this.

There's a pretty big difference between "information will be stored as needed for transmission and basic function" and "information will be monitored to ensure private conversations are suitable for public consumption at all times." What they are allowed to do with that data varies and also has different societal expectations.

The latter is a brand new thing that seldom happens, and thus there is no reasonable expectation that it is happening. It will be interesting to see how this plays out if it ever makes its way into legislation/court.

Dojohoda

No

There is a system in place in which a customer may report another customer. This system should be sufficient because it includes a first hand witness of the purported harm. The action was initiated by the customer present at the time.

AI looking for words and then sending information to someone who will look into it is not the same. The action was not initiated by a customer or a human being.

According the those who have been banned, this system has handed out punishment when there is no injured party. Typing the words appear to be the crime, words, which the company will not disclose, could shut down a customer's game play for a few days or longer.

Veryamedliel

Dojohoda wrote: »

There is a system in place in which a customer may report another customer. This system should be sufficient because it includes a first hand witness of the purported harm. The action was initiated by the customer present at the time.

AI looking for words and then sending information to someone who will look into it is not the same. The action was not initiated by a customer or a human being.

According the those who have been banned, this system has handed out punishment when there is no injured party. Typing the words appear to be the crime, words, which the company will not disclose, could shut down a customer's game play for a few days or longer.

That's fine an well as far as that goes. But what if both parties don't take offense? Like when discussing a future hit or robbery or some such? Yes, sadly, this actually happens in games. It's not just roleplaying for fun all the time. In this case ZoS itself is the damaged party. What then?

Also, what people claim and what actually happened are not necessarily the same thing. A very common thing on forums. To quote the not-so-famous- commander of the LEP Recon Squad Julius Root: ' I have no time for theory. Bring me solid evidence or get out of my office until you have some'. If you do have some, you have my support any way I can. Not before.

wolfie1.0.

Doesn't matter if it's acceptable or not morally.

Legally they have the right to do it and honestly, when you accepted the various agreements you agreed to it. The only way to revoke that is to delete your account.

TDVM

No

There's nothing wrong with being followed in general chats, but when it comes to private messages between friends, it can be seen as an invasion of privacy.

RaikaNA

Yes

To the people that voted no... you agreed to Zenimax's terms of service when you created your account.
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/terms-of-service

You agree that You have no ownership right or title in or to any such Downloadable Content, including, but not limited to, the virtual goods appearing or originating in the Services (such as a Game) or any other attributes associated with any Account or Services. ZeniMax does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift, or trade in the "real world" of anything that appears or originates in a Service or a Game. Accordingly, You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services. Evidence of any attempt to redeem Downloadable Content for a purported exchange, sale, gift, or trade in the "real world" will result in the immediate suspension or termination of Your Account or Membership. You acknowledge and agree that all virtual items represent a limited license right for Your personal, private, non-commercial, non-transferable, and limited use governed by these Terms of Service and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from ZeniMax at any time. ZeniMax reserves the right to refuse Your request(s) to acquire Downloadable Content, and reserves the right to limit or block any request to acquire Downloadable Content for any or no reason.

This is Zenimax game.. it's their platform... their sandbox. We pay them to use their service.

If people don't like the developers rummaging through their messages, installing AI in the chat, etc.. Just use Discord/teamspeak or any other social software.

allochthons

Yes, and No.

First - there is not, and never has been, privacy on the internet, unless things are encrypted. A mantra back when I was a system administrator was telling people "If you're not comfortable seeing it on a billboard downtown, *don't* type it into an e-mail." Data breaches happen. People are bad actors. You have to protect yourself.

Second -

ZOS_Kevin wrote:

That being said, we have been iterating on some processes recently and are still learning and training on the best way to use these tools, so there will be some occasional hiccups.

WHY is this training happening on the live servers? ZoS must have terabytes of logs they could train on. Training on live data, and incorrectly banning people, leads to just this, a PR disaster.

Third - people have mentioned that the humans making the decisions have to be fluent in the language, idioms and colloquialisms of the chat they're making decisions about. They also need to be fluent in the GAME they're making decisions about. If you discuss the gRape in the vampire intro quest, are you going to get banned? If you talk about the details of Sharp's quest/backstory, are you going to get banned? The fact that *we don't know* is a real problem. Is ZoS hiring people for customer service who know we have locations like the Vaults of Madness, or Bedlam Veil? The Corpse Garden?

One of the other threads talked about players of Baldur's Gate 3 who took screenshots of the character creation process, and got banned for nude photos. And not for copyright reasons. For obscenity reasons.

Context. Moderation without context is always going to have false positives.

valenwood_vegan

I don't personally *like* that zos seems to have decided to more strictly moderate chat, including what people are calling "private" chats. I'd like them to reconsider and dial it down a bit; look into ways to better communicate expectations to players and to improve the moderation system (perhaps more employee training is required?) to avoid punishing players when mere vulgar language is used between consenting parties and there is no "victim"; and to issue more warnings at first as both they and players adjust to a new level of moderation. It may cause me to play the game less, and will very likely cause me to socialize in-game less.

But is it "acceptable" beyond my personal distaste for how it's been implemented? Well I mean, it's all spelled out in the terms of service that I accepted. I urge people to actually read and understand what they agree to.

karthrag_inak

Yes

amig186 wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Their system. Their responsibility. Their privilege.

I sure hope you never share anything personal in your 'private' chats with online friends, then.

Khajiit controls himself and recognizes that there is no expectation of privacy in an environment that is managed by someone else. This is equivalent to being in public, and this one hasn't been in the habit of throwing down emotional tantrums, or even just expressing personal drama in public since he was perhaps 5 years old.

EDIT : this sounded more acerbic than was intended, so apologies. The point isn't that hard, though. Don't share private things in a public forum unless you want those private things made public. -shrug-.

LaintalAy

n333rs wrote: »

No context?

I'm pretty sure that Discord did a similar thing 12 or more months ago now.
I declined the TOS update from discord and no longer use it.
Discord is free, so no refund is applicable.

Did the TOS change?
Did we all get a message about this change that we agreed to?

Is it acceptable for zenimax to scour through your messages and take account actions at random?

Yes it is, but only if we agreed to the change when we were told about it.

Is it acceptable for zenimax to scour through your messages and take account actions at random?

Any action is the result of an ESO staff member following some unpublicised protocol.
They told us that no action was fully automated.
There is no randomness.

If players don't like this change, this poll is a really poor way of demonstrating that.

I_killed_Vivec

Yes

Skewed poll is skewed... "at random"?

Varana

No

RaikaNA wrote: »

To the people that voted no... you agreed to Zenimax's terms of service when you created your account.
https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/terms-of-service

You agree that You have no ownership right or title in or to any such Downloadable Content, including, but not limited to, the virtual goods appearing or originating in the Services (such as a Game) or any other attributes associated with any Account or Services.

This is Zenimax game.. it's their platform... their sandbox. We pay them to use their service.

But that is, at best, half the discussion.

The other half is about whether what's written there, includes what they were (or are) doing (it's certainly not about "ownership"). And whether to provide their "service", they have to hand out bans for swear words.

The OP asked "is it acceptable". That's not necessarily a legal question, that's at least partially an ethical one. That ZOS can do something, doesn't mean they should do something.

Also, the context in which this topic boiled up on the forums, came from the roleplaying community. Referring them to Discord or any other platform isn't helpful, as that defeats the purpose in the first place, namely roleplaying within the game.

OtarTheMad

No

I voted no because ZOS does have the right to do what they want with their product and chat, most places do, but where is the line? Thats my issue. There is trying to provide a safe and fun place for gamers and then there is going overboard on censorship. Anyone should feel safe to login and have fun with friends or even solo but over-censoring is also not great.

Being temp banned or suspended for saying every day swears in a game rated M for Mature AND having a profanity filter is reaching and not right. You have that filter, you have the ability to block, you can go to a different zone etc.

Being banned or suspended for private messages that no one else can read, that aren’t illegal or promoting harm, is also not right.

I have never been in trouble, in game, for stuff I said and cant imagine I would be but that’s also because a few years ago I just honestly stopped talking in zone or group chat unless I had to like: “Arrius UA.” Or “X world boss up.” Since I am unsure if saying an f bomb or the adult version of crap or butt or heck etc in zone or group or private will get me banned I won’t say anything. I’ll talk in voice or discord.

ComboBreaker88

No

When a company like ZeniMax scours through player messages or account activity without transparency or clear justification, it can have several negative implications for both players and the company:

### For Players:
1. **Loss of Trust**: If players feel their privacy is being violated, it can erode trust in the company, leading to dissatisfaction and reduced engagement.
2. **Invasion of Privacy**: Players expect a certain level of confidentiality in their communications. Random scrutiny can feel intrusive and unsettling.
3. **Chilling Effect**: Players may self-censor their interactions, fearing repercussions for normal behavior, which can stifle community engagement and communication.
4. **Potential for Misinterpretation**: Actions taken based on vague or random scrutiny can lead to unfair penalties, which can frustrate and alienate players.

### For the Company:
1. **Reputation Damage**: Negative perceptions about privacy practices can harm the company’s reputation and drive players to competitors.
2. **Legal Risks**: Violating privacy laws or terms of service can lead to legal repercussions, including fines and litigation.
3. **Customer Retention**: Distrust can lead to increased player churn, as dissatisfied players are less likely to continue using the service or recommend it to others.
4. **Impact on Revenue**: A decline in player trust and engagement can directly affect the company’s bottom line, as fewer active users often translate to reduced revenue.

Overall, maintaining transparency and respecting player privacy is crucial for fostering a healthy relationship between players and the company.

Varana

No

Thanks, ChatGPT. (Seriously, try at least to hide the formatting?)

ComboBreaker88

No

Varana wrote: »

Thanks, ChatGPT. (Seriously, try at least to hide the formatting?)

Naw, when even a robot can see that's a bad idea... There's seriously something wrong.

Varana

No

The robot doesn't "see" that it's a bad idea. The robot reacts to what you feed it, producing a text that will try to match what is probably your expectation.

While scouring through player messages or account activity without transparency may seem intrusive at first, there are several reasons why it could be legitimate and, in some cases, reflect positively on a company like ZeniMax:
1. Security and Fraud Prevention

Protection against cheating and fraud: One of the most common reasons for monitoring player activity is to prevent cheating, hacking, or other forms of manipulation. In competitive or multiplayer environments, cheaters can ruin the experience for legitimate players. By keeping an eye on unusual or suspicious behavior, the company can maintain a fair playing field.
Account security: Scanning player activity can help identify when accounts are compromised. If someone logs in from an unusual location or engages in suspicious transactions, the company can step in to protect the account.

2. Toxicity and Harassment Prevention

Enforcing community standards: Games often have rules or codes of conduct to foster positive experiences. By monitoring chat and interactions, companies can detect harassment, hate speech, or other violations of these standards. Ensuring a safe and respectful environment is crucial for retaining players and keeping the community healthy.
Proactive moderation: Instead of relying solely on player reports, monitoring allows the company to be proactive in removing toxic players, thus improving the overall quality of the player base and game environment.

3. Compliance with Laws and Regulations

Legal requirements: Companies may need to comply with various laws related to online communication, such as those dealing with child safety or illegal activities. Monitoring player activity can help ensure compliance with laws that protect users, particularly in certain jurisdictions.
Data protection and privacy laws: Ironically, by keeping track of account activity, the company can also ensure that personal data is not being misused or that players are not engaging in illegal activities that could expose other players' data.

4. Improvement of User Experience

Data-driven improvements: Analyzing player behavior and interactions can provide insights into gameplay patterns, preferences, and frustrations. This data can help developers identify areas that need balancing, content that is underused, or features that are especially popular. It ultimately leads to a better user experience and more informed game design decisions.
Tailored support: By knowing more about how players interact with the game, customer support teams can be more effective. For example, if they can see where a player struggled before they submitted a help ticket, they can offer more personalized support.

5. Intellectual Property Protection

Preventing unauthorized use: Scanning accounts and messages may help a company detect attempts to distribute unauthorized copies, leak confidential information about upcoming releases, or engage in behavior that violates the terms of service.
Protecting in-game economies: In games with virtual currencies or economies, monitoring helps ensure that players are not engaging in activities like real-money trading or botting, which could destabilize the game economy and harm the player experience.

6. Minimizing Legal Risk and Liability

Avoiding lawsuits: In cases of harassment, illegal activities, or other harmful behaviors, a company may be held liable if it fails to act. Regular monitoring can provide the company with evidence that it is being proactive in enforcing policies and preventing harm.
Clear terms of service: Many companies outline in their terms of service the scope of their monitoring. If ZeniMax or any other company clearly communicates these terms when players agree to them, the practice becomes legally justifiable and protects the company from potential legal disputes.

7. Preserving the Integrity of the Game World

Maintaining immersion and narrative: For some players, a cohesive and immersive game world is a key part of their experience. Monitoring and enforcing rules against disruptive behavior (like trolling or griefing) helps to preserve this integrity, ensuring that players' immersion is not interrupted by negative elements.

While transparency is important, players also tend to expect a certain level of protection and fairness in their gaming environment. If done ethically, monitoring can be a valuable tool to ensure a positive player experience, protect the community, and enhance the overall quality of the game.

See? The robot thinks it's fine.
.