The_Meathead wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm not going to vote because the poll is biased.
My answer is "sometimes" or "other" if those were included.
I understand scanning for certain criminal things to protect themselves from liability and also because it could save lives. I don't have a problem with that.
But, I don't think AI should be looking for things like rude language. If someone else reports you, that's a different story.
And honestly, this^
Someone messaging their pal with "Hey F-word, what's hanging?" is obviously a ridiculous thing to act on, but there probably are legitimate outliers.
There should be humans making the final decisions, and those humans should have a great deal of familiarity with context, familiarity, slang, and humor that they take into account.
Kevin stated that the AI only flags things to be looked at and takes no action on an account on it's own. Humans look into the flagged issue and decide how to act. He also stated they are learning from their experience and making changes.
karthrag_inak wrote: »Their system. Their responsibility. Their privilege.
No, despite the fact it is their system, there exists a reasonable expectation of privacy in both private messaging and mails, which they are in breach of.
Just imagine what would happen to their reputation if it was publicly known they spy on private conversations.
I would strongly suggest they check with their lawyers regarding the invasion of privacy, because I am pretty sure they have not.
Wauw the amount of yes . Rly surprised by that . Sad to see freedom gets given away so easy 😭
You’ll get snipped soon, but yeah, I totally agree. It’s the same people who would say IRL: "Lol, do whatever you want with my personal information, I've got nothing to hide anyway." Crazy.[snip]
There are no 'personal' conversations on a platform you don't legally own. Every part of the game, including what you call 'private conversations' are not private, but legally owned by ZoS, which you use only with their permission. Every letter you type, every in-game action you take is owned by ZoS. That's what you agreed to when you started playing this game. And yes, in itself this is perfectly legal.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »I don't want to give too much personal info, but since I'm working on privacy and data protection IRL, I can't agree at all with the idea of ZOS snooping on my personal conversations.
Nice try, but It's a false analogy. You don't have an legal agreement with your landlord that allows him to see and record everything you do in the house you rent. You do have such an agreement with ZoS.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »For those saying they can check your messages: would you be okay if your landlord was eavesdropping on all your personal chats just because you’re using his kitchen, his toilet, his bathroom, etc.? Sounds pretty wild, right?
All fair questions and concerns, but irrelevant in this case. But if you want a probable answer: M$ has a datacenter in Ireland and Amsterdam. Considering ZoS is owned by M$, it's fair to assume that European data collected by ZoS is stored there. Otherwise, the ZoS HQ in Amsterdam might store it. That said, I do not have first hand evidence for my statement. It could (and should) be somewhere in the ToS. ZoS is legally bound (in the EU at least) to inform their users on such matters. So go ask or read and they will have no choice but to answer. If they do not, you're free to take them to court.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »
- You have no idea what ZOS might do with your personal information (and trust me, what a company says can be very different from what it actually does);
- You have no clue where or how this personal data will be stored;
- You have no idea how ZOS is securing/protecting this information against potential external threats if they had to store your conversations for further investigations.
Veryamedliel wrote: »There are no 'personal' conversations on a platform you don't legally own. Every part of the game, including what you call 'private conversations' are not private, but legally owned by ZoS, which you use only with their permission. Every letter you type, every in-game action you take is owned by ZoS. That's what you agreed to when you started playing this game. And yes, in itself this is perfectly legal.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »I don't want to give too much personal info, but since I'm working on privacy and data protection IRL, I can't agree at all with the idea of ZOS snooping on my personal conversations.
In fact, the GDPR doesn't even apply to this. The GDPR deals with storage, usage and security of said data, not the freely given agreement of sharing it. If it did, Facebook and other 'social' media wouldn't exist in the EU either. Now, if a ZoS staff member starts browsing mindlessly through your conversations hoping to find something illegal, you may have had a point. But since it's automated and only potential issues are 'flagged' before being used, read and acted upon by staff, there is no legal issue.Nice try, but It's a false analogy. You don't have an legal agreement with your landlord that allows him to see and record everything you do in the house you rent. You do have such an agreement with ZoS.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »For those saying they can check your messages: would you be okay if your landlord was eavesdropping on all your personal chats just because you’re using his kitchen, his toilet, his bathroom, etc.? Sounds pretty wild, right?All fair questions and concerns, but irrelevant in this case. But if you want a probable answer: M$ has a datacenter in Ireland and Amsterdam. Considering ZoS is owned by M$, it's fair to assume that European data collected by ZoS is stored there. Otherwise, the ZoS HQ in Amsterdam might store it. That said, I do not have first hand evidence for my statement. It could (and should) be somewhere in the ToS. ZoS is legally bound (in the EU at least) to inform their users on such matters. So go ask or read and they will have no choice but to answer. If they do not, you're free to take them to court.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »
- You have no idea what ZOS might do with your personal information (and trust me, what a company says can be very different from what it actually does);
- You have no clue where or how this personal data will be stored;
- You have no idea how ZOS is securing/protecting this information against potential external threats if they had to store your conversations for further investigations.
The question was if it is acceptable. Legally, the answer is yes, provided they follow the GDPR laws with regards to your -very valid- questions above. Anything else is your personal opinion. Valid as that opinion may (or may not) be, it is not the law and ZoS is perfectly in it's right to ignore said opinion. If you don't like the legal answer, it's up to you to stop using their services.
Wauw the amount of yes . Rly surprised by that . Sad to see freedom gets given away so easy 😭
No, despite the fact it is their system, there exists a reasonable expectation of privacy in both private messaging and mails, which they are in breach of.
Just imagine what would happen to their reputation if it was publicly known they spy on private conversations.
I would strongly suggest they check with their lawyers regarding the invasion of privacy, because I am pretty sure they have not.
TybaltKaine wrote: »There is no privacy on the web, ever, learn to accept that first.
That's 100% NOT what I said. In fact, I said roughly the same thing. Seems there's some misunderstanding there. My apologies for my part in that.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »First off, just because ZoS owns the data doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want with it. The GDPR is all about protecting personal data, which includes how they use it. So even if you agreed to their terms, they still have to be upfront about how they collect and use that data.
Again, 100% NOT what I said. No ToS overrules the law in the EU. It's the other way around as you so rightly stated.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »You mentioned that the GDPR doesn’t apply because of the terms of service, but that’s not how it works. The law exists to protect users, and it requires companies to be transparent about their data practices. The GDPR has a significant focus on clearly communicating your purposes to customers (I wrote a 150-page thesis on it). Just because ZoS can technically monitor chats doesn’t mean they’re off the hook if they don’t follow the rules. If players don’t know their chats might get flagged, that’s a serious violation of their rights—and I bet many of them don’t.
It is not the same at all. Again, there are no private conversation on a platform you don't legally own and tells you beforehand that they collect your game data. And players are not actively being monitored, it's passively. Quite a big difference. I don't count for the feelings of said players. They could (and should) have known what they signed up for. Nothing is being done without their consent either. It's not Zos' job to quiz you on the ToS before you can press the accept button. Should it be? That's food for another discussion.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »Regarding the landlord analogy, I’m not sure you got my point. Sure, there are legal agreements, but people still expect a certain level of privacy in their homes. This expectation is fundamental for building mutual trust. In gaming, it’s the same: players assume their private conversations will remain private unless they’re breaking the rules. Ignoring this expectation isn’t just unfair; it undermines the relationship between the platform and its users. When players feel like they’re being watched or monitored without their consent, it creates an environment of distrust that can drive them away. Trust is essential for any community to thrive, and if ZoS fails to respect this, it jeopardizes the overall experience for everyone involved.
I never said there are no rules concerning automated monitoring. Obviously there are. However, all I see so far is people speculating with not a shred of evidence showing any malpractice by ZoS. Show me actual proof of ZoS breaking any legal rules and you'll find me at your side faster than you can say Hel Ra Citadel.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »Now let’s talk about that automated monitoring. Just because it’s done by a system doesn’t mean it’s free of legal issues. If conversations get flagged without context, it can lead to unfair bans, raising a lot of ethical questions. Plus, you’ll never have a clear idea of how this information is monitored, how it’s used, or whether it’s stored for potential future use.
Question? Certainly you can. In fact you should. We're not in disagreement on that front. As for ethical vs legal, that a personal opinion to every single user. ZoS, however only has the law to follow. Morality costs money after all.JiubLeRepenti wrote: »Finally, players absolutely have the right to question how companies operate. Dismissing these concerns as mere opinions ignores the reality of corporate accountability. Legal doesn’t always mean ethical, and it’s crucial for players to feel safe and respected in their games. We saw this with Cambridge Analytica manipulating information flows on Facebook during the 2016 elections.
So while ZoS might be following the letter of the law (and in this case, I'm not even sure it would be the case if they use some very recent technology like AI), we should all push for better standards when it comes to user privacy. It’s not just about legality; it’s about doing the right thing.
PrincessOfThieves wrote: »No. This AI watchdog thing makes me uneasy, even though I rarely swear and never use N-word and such.
I find it creepy and utterly pointless. A working report system and optional chat censor would be enough.
It just seems that they are jumping from one extreme to another. There was time when people got away with actual harassment and such, and now you can get banned for swearing in a private conversation.
[*] I literally only paid for a key that gives me access to this game's server, which is owned by ZoS.
[*] I agreed to the ToS before playing.
Or you could try hacking the game and setting up your own private servers where you are responsible for your own sensitive data and can do whatever you want there.
Veryamedliel wrote: »PrincessOfThieves wrote: »No. This AI watchdog thing makes me uneasy, even though I rarely swear and never use N-word and such.
I find it creepy and utterly pointless. A working report system and optional chat censor would be enough.
It just seems that they are jumping from one extreme to another. There was time when people got away with actual harassment and such, and now you can get banned for swearing in a private conversation.
If only that were true. Sadly, it's not. I've seen my share of games where illegal real-life activities were being discussed, planned and even promoted. Games have been an easy target for such discussions for a while since the place to discuss such matters online have become more limited every day. ZoS has a legal obligation to try and prevent such activity. Having members of staff reading everything is also not allowed, so having AI flag things to look at seems the logical solution. How well it works remains to be seen as people often use code words for certain activities. I won't list any examples here.
Of course people should not get banned for swearing in chat, private or otherwise, be it by AI bot or staff unless such things are clearly not allowed according to the ToS. Furthermore, I've seen no evidence of people actually getting banned for swearing. All I see so far are rumours and baseless accusations.
I'm not saying I like the development per se. But it is what it is. The world gets less safe with every passing day. I'm not the one in power with the ability to change it. Nor am I entirely sure what would be the right alternative if I was.