Spawn camping in Cyro

SkaraMinoc · October 1

Probably shouldn't nerf Azureblight.

Gray Host PC NA

acastanza_ESO · October 1

I think everyone is on the same page that the behavior of Ballgroups in Cyrodiil is disgusting and abusive, if not outright exploitative. ZOS seems to think that its fine. I think the population actively cratering shows how the playerbase feels about ZOS's failure to act in any way except to reinforce the dominance of these exploit groups.

ssewallb14_ESO · October 1

There's no way that ZOS doesn't realize at this point that there is an absurd power delta between organized and unorganized.

The only conclusion I can think of is that ZOS doesn't think this is a problem, or they're not sure what to do about it and are willing to let it slide for years at a time.

As a former PvPer I feel for you guys, it was bad years ago, but it's completely out of hand now.

If all you want to do is PvP it might be worth looking into another game. I know I would've a long time ago if I didn't enjoy the rest of the game.

Twohothardware · October 1

They need to drop the nerf hammer on all group healing and buffs inside Cyrodiil. They have no problem nerfing everything else.

RaikaNA · October 1

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

Tommy_The_Gun · October 1

They have not acted for over 10 years... Seriously. "Ball Groups" have never received a single nerf since this game exists. Other play-styles got guted multiple times and even more, but BG never received a nerf... I guess it is clear now (at least to me). People were hoping, but every time where there was something that was remotely close to an effective counter towards Ball Groups - it took them quite literally "a hot fix" to nerf it (Plaguebreak set for example). I am actually surprised that Azureblight withstood so long without a nerf...

MincMincMinc · October 1

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They have not acted for over 10 years... Seriously. "Ball Groups" have never received a single nerf since this game exists. Other play-styles got guted multiple times and even more, but BG never received a nerf... I guess it is clear now (at least to me). People were hoping, but every time where there was something that was remotely close to an effective counter towards Ball Groups - it took them quite literally "a hot fix" to nerf it (Plaguebreak set for example). I am actually surprised that Azureblight withstood so long without a nerf...

Well if one set gives you the power to kill XX number of players it must be nerfed right? Everyone should be perfectly equal and nobody should be able to 1vX or 1v2 for that matter......kidding, but these were the arguments back in the day.

This is the bad effect of standardization. To have proper group counters, there must be the ability to 1vX. For those counters to actually work, you cant be able to numerically compare said sets. Not to mention we shouldn't be trying to source these kinds of interactions through proc sets. Problem is proc sets inevitably are automatic like passives. If something is capable of killing 10+ players without any brain power, of course it will be cried about.

1vX mechanics should return as skills or as pure defensive based stat sets. This way you have multiple build barriers to entry and activation across multiple game systems instead of just being a set you equip that fires off on its own.

skills require player input, timing, skill slot choice, stat investment, sustain, tankiness to survive
Defensive based stat sets (dont think just tank sets, think like old fury) Are only strong when you are on the receiving end of being dogpiled. You would never see coordinated ball groups running fury back in the day, simply because it didn't benefit them at all. However if you were dogpiled by groups of players you could hold your own. For some reason zos decided every stat set needed a downtime, even though some were intended to already be on a "downtime" by only being able to be activated when defensive.

gronoxvx · October 2

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They have not acted for over 10 years... Seriously. "Ball Groups" have never received a single nerf since this game exists.

I dunno. Id call the decrease of group sizes a nerf to zergs and ball groups.

MincMincMinc · October 2

gronoxvx wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They have not acted for over 10 years... Seriously. "Ball Groups" have never received a single nerf since this game exists.

I dunno. Id call the decrease of group sizes a nerf to zergs and ball groups.

Reducing the group sizes accomplishes nothing unless they prevented cross healing/buffing between groups. Otherwise it is just an annoyance. Even then groups could just use addons to coordinate without grouping to avoid the cut, unless you prevent any heals or buffs from going between ungrouped players. Even with the group cut there are times when you would rather be grouped. Mainly to ensure your heals go to your group members and not some pug's bear or clannfear.

It'd be better if zos just made skills and sets have this cut built in. For example rallying cry could be multiple different sets. One which only targets you and is 100% efficient. Another that can target up to 4 group/allies for 70%/60% efficiency. Or a set that does 12 group/allies for 50/40% efficiency. Since zos needs ideas for sets or skill morphs, this atleast gives them free content that they can spread out.

deadpool3431 · October 2

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

That's a good point actually that everyone needs to realize. We don't spend as much money on this game as new customers. Streamers are "free" advertising. More streamers in line with the regulars pvp playerbase need to start showing the other perspective. The perspective of the new pvper that jumps in and gets obliterated by an unkillable force and leaves for good. the perspective of the regulars that get demoralized when they try to take a keep only to be ran over repeatedly until they leave the game theyve literally played for a decade and lose friends they've made. I've been around a long time. I've talked to people in discords that I haven't seen in the game for a long time who've quit and their main reason is ball groups. They only get stronger every patch.

Synapsis123 · October 3

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

Yeah they're balancing the game around the 40 viewer streamers. You figured it out. You cracked the code.

RaikaNA · October 3

Synapsis123 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

Yeah they're balancing the game around the 40 viewer streamers. You figured it out. You cracked the code.

Um... okay?

gronoxvx · October 3

MincMincMinc wrote: »

gronoxvx wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They have not acted for over 10 years... Seriously. "Ball Groups" have never received a single nerf since this game exists.

I dunno. Id call the decrease of group sizes a nerf to zergs and ball groups.

Reducing the group sizes accomplishes nothing unless they prevented cross healing/buffing between groups. Otherwise it is just an annoyance. Even then groups could just use addons to coordinate without grouping to avoid the cut, unless you prevent any heals or buffs from going between ungrouped players. Even with the group cut there are times when you would rather be grouped.

I disagree as a lot of sets and skills used in ball groups like barrier etc only effect "group" members. Before this youd have 18-24 person ball groups optimized out the wazoo. The changes made groups have to factor in what was essential to a group compared to stacking as many buff sets they possibly could. This was until the pvp meta went to the tank meta thats been around for ages now.

gronoxvx · October 3

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

Ummm. Way more pvers stream than pvpers so it would make way more sense for zos to cater to the larger streaming population compared to a handful of pvpers who stream.

CatoUnchained · October 3

Twohothardware wrote: »

They need to drop the nerf hammer on all group healing and buffs inside Cyrodiil. They have no problem nerfing everything else.

We've been telling ZOS for six years or more they need to limit heal and shield stacking. So nobody at ZOS can possibly claim they haven't been well informed of what the players are convinced needs to change to improve performance and fun in Cyrodiil.

CatoUnchained · October 3

gronoxvx wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

Ummm. Way more pvers stream than pvpers so it would make way more sense for zos to cater to the larger streaming population compared to a handful of pvpers who stream.

Prior to U35 most ESO streamers were PvP exclusive for the most part. The vast majority of ESO streamers used to focus almost entirely on PvP because, let's face it, PvE is pretty boring.

Iriidius · October 3

RaikaNA wrote: »

The problem is that some of these ballgroup leads are streamers.ZOS won't touch them because they make the game look good and interesting from their perspective.

For new/non players ballgroup fights probably look intimidating complex+confusing rather than good and interesting and they wont understand what is even going on. other than in an 1vX where you see what is going on, who is the 1/protagonist/pov and who are the X/antagonists and are impressed how 1 player wins against many and it looks good and interesting.
Most comments appreciate 1vX youtube videos as skilled gameplay but dislike ballgroup videos as getting carried except comments from other ballgroup players.

Seyer530 · October 3

There are some of us who enjoy ball grouping together. 12 players max. We use the in game gear that the developers have created and coordinate our strategy because at the hours that we play, there is a large 40+ player group that has flipped the map red and taken all the Elder Scrolls. If you get killed in our path of destruction, you are collateral damage. There are many class skills, scribing skills, and gear sets that are wonderful counters to ball groups!! Most of these ball groups only raid for a couple hours at a time, and some only play together a couple days a week because humans have lives, so find those ball group players when they are not "exploting" or being "disgusting" as one poster put it, and fight them. Fight me whenever, I'm always down to add kills to my Kill Counter.

forum_gpt · October 6

Just.....siege them?

MJallday · October 7

forum_gpt wrote: »

Just.....siege them?

unles youve got 12 seige simultaneously droppinng on them, which is nigh on impossilbe due to the speed - they dont do a jot of damage

personally, id put a debuff - for every 1 person you are grouped with - thats 5% of your health gone. thatll stop them

Jestir · October 7

I seriously don't understand the "nerf ball groups" mindset

I get shield and heal stacking being an issue, random cross healing even gives solo players a level of survivability that they shouldnt be able to obtain

But why on earth wouldn't an organized group that coordinates builds and actually plays together while strategizing and making call outs in a voice chat dominate?

I absolutely don't understand why those who are playing the game at the highest level in a group setting, in an environment built around doing so, should be punished.

I really just don't get it, and I'm 200% with ZOS on just ignoring all this whining.

On the topic of spawn camping, tale as old as competitive gaming, the game systems need to do their best to prevent that or any player capable of is going to take advantage of it.

Major_Mangle · October 7

Jestir wrote: »

I seriously don't understand the "nerf ball groups" mindset

I get shield and heal stacking being an issue, random cross healing even gives solo players a level of survivability that they shouldnt be able to obtain

But why on earth wouldn't an organized group that coordinates builds and actually plays together while strategizing and making call outs in a voice chat dominate?

I absolutely don't understand why those who are playing the game at the highest level in a group setting, in an environment built around doing so, should be punished.

I really just don't get it, and I'm 200% with ZOS on just ignoring all this whining.

On the topic of spawn camping, tale as old as competitive gaming, the game systems need to do their best to prevent that or any player capable of is going to take advantage of it.

It´s not about "being punished", it´s that group play is way too rewarding for how little effort it takes.

Synapsis123 · October 7

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

I seriously don't understand the "nerf ball groups" mindset

I get shield and heal stacking being an issue, random cross healing even gives solo players a level of survivability that they shouldnt be able to obtain

But why on earth wouldn't an organized group that coordinates builds and actually plays together while strategizing and making call outs in a voice chat dominate?

I absolutely don't understand why those who are playing the game at the highest level in a group setting, in an environment built around doing so, should be punished.

I really just don't get it, and I'm 200% with ZOS on just ignoring all this whining.

On the topic of spawn camping, tale as old as competitive gaming, the game systems need to do their best to prevent that or any player capable of is going to take advantage of it.

It´s not about "being punished", it´s that group play is way too rewarding for how little effort it takes.

If it really took "little effort" we would see more ball groups. As it stands there are very few ball groups running around cyrodiil and all of them die to pugs. What you guys really have a problem with is the lack of matchmaking. You have to understand that cyrodiil is not an environment designed to be "fair".

What is your expectation? Do you want your unorganized 12 man to be able to compete with an organized 12 man? I can tell you right now that shield stacking nerfs or heal stacking nerfs wouldn't make you be able to compete. If you've ever seen a ball groups logs, 95%+ of the healing is over healing.

As far as spawn camping goes, this is really an issue with how keep flagging works. It's too easy to repair the doors and unflag the keeps when they are clearly still under attack. Normally this is used as an advantage to overwhelm the enemy force inside the keep with numbers, but these groups have found a way to counter it. If there are more than 6 players inside a keep it should remain flagged. That would fix the issue. Maybe another solution is possible, but you certainly shouldn't be able to respawn in a keep that is under attack.

The irony with this complaint is you are basically complaining that you can't abuse a loophole in the keep flagging to zerg the enemy players with respawns.

LordeGian · October 7

Major_Mangle wrote: »

It´s not about "being punished", it´s that group play is way too rewarding for how little effort it takes.

If it's no effort, then why don't you set up your ballgroup and do the same? Try forming a coordinated group with 12 people who are willing to do it and learn the mechanics and achieve the harmony that a team that has been playing for years has acquired, then you can tell me if it's really easy. This is certainly something that uncommitted players think about.

Joy_Division · October 7

Jestir wrote: »

I seriously don't understand the "nerf ball groups" mindset

I get shield and heal stacking being an issue, random cross healing even gives solo players a level of survivability that they shouldnt be able to obtain

But why on earth wouldn't an organized group that coordinates builds and actually plays together while strategizing and making call outs in a voice chat dominate?

I absolutely don't understand why those who are playing the game at the highest level in a group setting, in an environment built around doing so, should be punished.

I really just don't get it, and I'm 200% with ZOS on just ignoring all this whining.

On the topic of spawn camping, tale as old as competitive gaming, the game systems need to do their best to prevent that or any player capable of is going to take advantage of it.

There is a difference between a solo receiving a residual Radiating Regen from a PuG and an organized group having 10 vigors stacking on each player and multiple contingencies, many of which come from what are supposed to be dedicated damage dealers. Those situations are not comparable.

Most people who make these points do not have an issue with players coordinating their builds and being in voice comms. They don;t like problematic mechanics like literally a dozen of the same HoT/shield stacking. Or sets like Rush of Agony that break the game's fundamental rules. That's not an unreasonable ask. I sometimes play in a group and I find these mechanics utterly boring and not fun at all. To say nothing of lacking in imagination as we're all doing the same things and have been for years now.

You may be 200% with ZOS ignoring all of this and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. What is not an opinion is that a long time ago before DDs stacking Vigors and trash like Rush of Agony existed in the game, when performance was far worse, PC NA had multiple servers that would be pop locked on a given night (and these servers had at least double the pop cap we have now). For the past month I have been able to que up for weekend prime time on AD (the leading zerg faction atm) with ques less than 10 on GH, sometimes getting in immediately. Far less people PvP today than they once did.

It is especially frustrating that of all the terrible mechanics in Cyrodiil, when the one set in the game that minorly inconvenienced these groups with their dozen running Vigors, ZOS was quick to act when several organized group players complained - not even by adjusting the set, but removing it entirely from a PvP setting.

Synapsis123 · October 7

Joy_Division wrote: »

It is especially frustrating that of all the terrible mechanics in Cyrodiil, when the one set in the game that minorly inconvenienced these groups with their dozen running Vigors, ZOS was quick to act when several organized group players complained - not even by adjusting the set, but removing it entirely from a PvP setting.

Quick to act? Azureblight was change back in July 2023 to its current iteration. Over a year is quick in your mind?

Joy_Division wrote: »

I sometimes play in a group and I find these mechanics utterly boring and not fun at all.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Major_Toughness · October 7

Bring back Tarnished bug on proxy. Was the best Cyrodiil has been in years.

Aldoss · October 7

Seyer530 wrote: »

There are many class skills, scribing skills, and gear sets that are wonderful counters to ball groups!!

Many you say?

Well do please list them.

NordSwordnBoard · October 7

I can remember being in a ball group before we had proc sets that stacked the enemy for you. Your crown had to use positioning and coordination to wipe another group in one fell swoop. The wayshrine stacks them almost as well as RA or DC.
Of course a ball group is more organized and that enables them to do what they do. Did it have to become much easier for them though? It's rare to see a whole ball get stacked & wiped by a solo, or small group. So these sets, whom do they serve?

Saruman?

Joy_Division · October 7

Synapsis123 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It is especially frustrating that of all the terrible mechanics in Cyrodiil, when the one set in the game that minorly inconvenienced these groups with their dozen running Vigors, ZOS was quick to act when several organized group players complained - not even by adjusting the set, but removing it entirely from a PvP setting.

Quick to act? Azureblight was change back in July 2023 to its current iteration. Over a year is quick in your mind?

Joy_Division wrote: »

I sometimes play in a group and I find these mechanics utterly boring and not fun at all.

[snip]

Yes quick. ZOS has failed to deliver meaningful combat updates on key complaints such as PvP Necromancer and Templar performance and similar PvE complaints with Nightblades DPS. The same company who still has not completed its hybridization goal. Ever since update 35, ZOS has deliberately, publicly, and drastically slowed down its pace of combat changes.

Nowhere is this more apparent when it comes to Heal (and now shield) stacking, as these have been identified as problems in PvP years before Azureblight was changed. Zos has done nothing, not even offer communication regarding the many complaints about stacking HoTs and organized groups. The contrast which they responded to Azureblight complaints in a week two PTS update was striking.

Yes, nobody is forcing me to PvP. And most of the time, I don't. I only PvP once, at most twice, a week. And looking at how Cyrodiil can barely support a single server on PC/NA with a lower population cap than is the past, its clear that the problem expressed in this thread and the palpable frustration in posts such as #2 are widespread. But putting one's head in the sand has always been easier than addressing underlying issues

[edited to remove quote]

RaidingTraiding · October 7

LordeGian wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

It´s not about "being punished", it´s that group play is way too rewarding for how little effort it takes.

If it's no effort, then why don't you set up your ballgroup and do the same? Try forming a coordinated group with 12 people who are willing to do it and learn the mechanics and achieve the harmony that a team that has been playing for years has acquired, then you can tell me if it's really easy. This is certainly something that uncommitted players think about.

Yeah I agree with this. Most people don't know what it takes to form a group and get upset when they get farmed by those who do. The people who actually put little effort into forming their group die incredibly fast, even to pugs. It is very easy to kill a low skill or low coordinated ball group, but most will turn a blind eye to that.

What's funny is a lot of players know there's a ball group in a keep, die to them, then rez only to immediately die again. It's pretty easy to have someone in group, or even zone or say chat, tell you the group is on the wayshrine. Then all you have to do is wait until they move off or rez at a camp, simple as that. If you keep dying at spawns then that sounds like a personal problem.

Also if the keeps not lit then you have infinite spawns. If you're in a pug zerg that definitely sounds like you have the advantage there. Pretty hard to full wipe an enemy that can just keep coming back indefinitely, at least until its re lit.