ok lets be real azureblight was OP but...

luchtt

this nerf actually kills it LOL. Can we please stop the ''either OP or dead'' trend that sets have been going to today? a clean balance IS possible .Pyrebrand was also just murdered in cold blood less than a week ago, and now AB?

Here's an easy fix: just return it to it's old state. It was more than fine being only usable by 1 person, very strong unique option but not overly dominant like it was now, maybe make jabs affect it again too? (lmao just kidding, unless?) but seriously. It went from being completely fine, to a surprise buff in iirc u38 or u39? for no reason, seems to be just the new status quo, and then out of nowhere no warning a week 2 nerf. I genuinely have no clue anymore.

acastanza_ESO

Azureblight in its Live server state is the only thing providing any viable counter to the scribing-empowered ballgroups that are running roughshod over Cyrodiil and have been actively killing PVP for several years now due to the lack of counters to their abusive gameplay. Azureblight needed to be toned down for PVE, but it was actually providing the only source of meaningful game balance in PVP

luchtt

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Azureblight in its Live server state is the only thing providing any viable counter to the scribing-empowered ballgroups that are running roughshod over Cyrodiil and have been actively killing PVP for several years now due to the lack of counters to their abusive gameplay. Azureblight needed to be toned down for PVE, but it was actually providing the only source of meaningful game balance in PVP

yeah I'm speaking from a pve aspect but I assumed that in pvp its even more dire lol. considering it was basically the only form of counterplay for ball groups. and a fairly mid one at that but the only way really.

It's just no longer worth running in pve either, like, it's gonna be incredibly niche. I could see it MAYBE being run on Reef Guardian still, and maybe some bigger raid trash packs, but aside from that? just no. It's quite sad to see.

CameraBeardThePirate

Here's the thing: it is way too strong on live right now in PvP, being the strongest option against any amount of enemies >3.

It should be the strongest option against groups larger than 8 or so, but having it also be the strongest option against 4 man groups is ridiculous.

That being said, I don't think removing the scaling effect from Players entirely is the right call. You're basically saying "this is too hard for us to figure out so we're not even going to try".

If the initial damage was reduced by 60%, and the scaling was increased to say, 75% or so, boom - the set is no longer OP against groups in the 4-8 range but remains incredible against groups in the 8-12 range.

Instead, ZOS did what they do too often these days and gave up on balancing it for one environment entirely.

acastanza_ESO

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Here's the thing: it is way too strong on live right now, being the strongest option against any amount of enemies >3.

It should be the strongest option against groups larger than 8 or so, but having it also be the strongest option against 4 man groups is ridiculous.

That being said, I don't think removing the scaling effect from Players entirely is the right call. You're basically saying "this is too hard for us to figure out so we're not even going to try".

If the initial damage was reduced by 60%, and the scaling was increased to say, 75% or so, boom - the set is no longer OP against groups in the 4-8 range but remains incredible against groups in the 8-12 range.

Instead, ZOS did what they do too often these days and gave up on balancing it for one environment entirely.

Strong agree, changing the scaling curve instead of outright deleting the set is absolutely the way to go.

Soarora

I feel like azure was doing alright in PvE as a situational set. It’s been in my mind as an example of what sets should be— situational as opposed to having 1 setup be meta (ex. Coral/deadly) for everything. More sets should be like azure, azure shouldn’t be nerfed to the point of uselessness (I don’t know math behind things so I’m trusting luchtt on the viability).

gariondavey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Here's the thing: it is way too strong on live right now in PvP, being the strongest option against any amount of enemies >3.

It should be the strongest option against groups larger than 8 or so, but having it also be the strongest option against 4 man groups is ridiculous.

That being said, I don't think removing the scaling effect from Players entirely is the right call. You're basically saying "this is too hard for us to figure out so we're not even going to try".

If the initial damage was reduced by 60%, and the scaling was increased to say, 75% or so, boom - the set is no longer OP against groups in the 4-8 range but remains incredible against groups in the 8-12 range.

Instead, ZOS did what they do too often these days and gave up on balancing it for one environment entirely.

@ZOS_Kevin camera has some great insights here

ZOS_Kevin

Thanks @gariondavey. Will pass these along.

Twohothardware

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Azureblight in its Live server state is the only thing providing any viable counter to the scribing-empowered ballgroups that are running roughshod over Cyrodiil and have been actively killing PVP for several years now due to the lack of counters to their abusive gameplay. Azureblight needed to be toned down for PVE, but it was actually providing the only source of meaningful game balance in PVP

This ^

The devs don't play PvP.

ApoAlaia

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks @gariondavey. Will pass these along.

@luchtt , who is the OP, also raised an excellent point from a PvE perspective which was the point of this thread.

There are already umpteen 'Azureblight + PvP' threads.

This change all but deletes the usefulness of this set bare maybe three trash pulls in the entire game where you end up stacking 5+ banners.

Could you please pass this along as well?

TheAwesomeChimpanzee

Why not instead of having a dedicated set to deal with groups stacking we don't they do something about that purple skill sitting in the Assault skill line that was created to deal with these groups and stacks of people. Once upon a time bombing a ball group was something that was possible but required good timing and skill expression, with the change it is now impossible to do so because the ability does no damage and doesn't scale nearly as well as they said it should on the day they nerfed it.

Having a set like Azure still up is in a way getting rid of the play style with a fairly easy way to kill groups but bringing back proxy should make the skill usable again and add again a skill expressive way of dealing with them. Leave Azure as is but give us a way of dealing with them in any other form, scaling AOE burst is the only way to kill these groups.

kyle.wilson

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks @gariondavey. Will pass these along.

Shouldn't the lead devs be at least proficient in the game content they lead?

KKolly

Devs please listen to this man. The [Snip] are here in force, while the average player is on their local Discord rejoicing and considering coming back to ESO for real group PvP. Blackreach PC NA is dead most nights. GH is not far out. You have no idea the reception this gets.

Now AB should exist to counter balls. The average group of 5-6 ABers should be able to harass a ball and even wipe a bad one. But it should in no one's hand be able to singularly bomb a group of 12 with m+M Evasion up.

But if its between a sledgehammer to the set and the continued death of organized PvP, I choose the Sledgehammer. But the rollback solution to the original "nerf" could be a real compromise. I highly suggest pursuing it.

[Edited for Baiting/Bashing]

acastanza_ESO

KKolly wrote: »

Devs please listen to this man. The [Snip] are here in force, while the average player is on their local Discord rejoicing and considering coming back to ESO for real group PvP. Blackreach PC NA is dead most nights. GH is not far out. You have no idea the reception this gets.

Now AB should exist to counter balls. The average group of 5-6 ABers should be able to harass a ball and even wipe a bad one. But it should in no one's hand be able to singularly bomb a group of 12 with m+M Evasion up.

But if its between a sledgehammer to the set and the continued death of organized PvP, I choose the Sledgehammer. But the rollback solution to the original "nerf" could be a real compromise. I highly suggest pursuing it.

[Snip]

The [Snip] are here in force, while the average player is on their local Discord rejoicing and considering coming back to ESO for real group PvP.

LMAO No. The average player is bemoaning this unwarranted gift [Snip]. The only people rejoicing are the ballgroupers that are actually killing PVP.

[Edited quote and for name/shame]

virtus753

Can someone explain the overall buff to Azure at 7 enemies that was promised in the dev comment? I'm not sure I'm understanding it.

If x = current base damage, here's what I'm figuring for the math:

Right now, it starts at 1.3x (since the 30% applies even with just one enemy), then goes up to 1.6x for two, 1.9x for three, 2.2x for four, 2.5x for five, and 2.8x for six enemies. Then it stops scaling (2.8x representing a bonus of 180% over 1x).

As of this PTS incremental, it will start at 0.4x (losing 60% of the base damage) for one enemy, then it will start scaling with additional enemies by 100% (of the new 0.4x base) per enemy: 0.8x for two, 1.2x for three, 1.6x for four, 2x for five, 2.4x for six, 2.8x for seven. Then it stops scaling. 2.8x is the expected increase of 600% over 0.4x, in line with the notes.

But 2.8x (current cap on live) is equal to 2.8x (current cap on PTS), with the only difference being it takes one more enemy to reach it. Where is the "slight buff" coming from on PTS at 7 enemies?

Synapsis123

I just don't think this set should be in pvp at all. The performance decrease with this set in pvp is just too large right now. If they made the set worse and people kept using it at the same frequency then the lag would increase even more because people wouldn't be dying due to the OP azureblightyness.

baconaura

virtus753 wrote: »

Can someone explain the overall buff to Azure at 7 enemies that was promised in the dev comment? I'm not sure I'm understanding it.

If x = current base damage, here's what I'm figuring for the math:

Right now, it starts at 1.3x (since the 30% applies even with just one enemy), then goes up to 1.6x for two, 1.9x for three, 2.2x for four, 2.5x for five, and 2.8x for six enemies. Then it stops scaling (2.8x representing a bonus of 180% over 1x).

As of this PTS incremental, it will start at 0.4x (losing 60% of the base damage) for one enemy, then it will start scaling with additional enemies by 100% (of the new 0.4x base) per enemy: 0.8x for two, 1.2x for three, 1.6x for four, 2x for five, 2.4x for six, 2.8x for seven. Then it stops scaling. 2.8x is the expected increase of 600% over 0.4x, in line with the notes.

But 2.8x (current cap on live) is equal to 2.8x (current cap on PTS), with the only difference being it takes one more enemy to reach it. Where is the "slight buff" coming from on PTS at 7 enemies?

there is no buff, its actually a nerf, because it requires 1 more target for it to match the current 6 targets for capped damage which is the same for both prenerf and the proposed nerf to AB

Synapsis123

Why would it scale damage for hitting 1 target?

baconaura

Synapsis123 wrote: »

Why would it scale damage for hitting 1 target?

the current live tooltip says its bonus damage per target hit. the bonus is the damage scaling...

The set was nerfed in 2 ways, the base damage was nerf, and also the time it takes to scale and hit the dmg cap. Previously to hit the damage cap, you needed 6 targets, now you need 7 targets to be hit by the blightseed.

MidniteOwl1913

I too don't understand if it's a problem for PVP why not just remove it from PVP? A PVP problem a PVP solution.

Turtle_Bot

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks @gariondavey. Will pass these along.

@ZOS_Kevin I know that the process for passing feedback along to the team, discussing that feedback and forming a conclusion takes a while, but this 1 particular part of the change to Azureblight (removing the damage scaling effect from players) is a game-breaking change that completely destroys the tentative balance between overarching playstyles that currently exists in open-world PvP as a mode in ESO.

The rest of the changes to the set are very good changes and are liked by the vast majority and already do enough to fix the issues the set has on live servers, but that 1 specific part of the change (removing the damage scaling effect from players) needs to be completely reverted for the sake of maintaining some semblance of counter play to what is currently the strongest (bordering on exploitative/abusive/bullying/harassing/cheating) playstyle that currently plagues open-world PvP driving massive numbers of players away from cyrodiil and even from ESO.

Hopefully we can see a quick fix for this issue. The PvP population has already dwindled massively thanks to how toxic ball groups have gotten due to a decade of zero nerfs and all buffs, now that there is a set that actually gives other playstyles a chance (not guaranteed) of fighting back, the worst thing to do is completely remove it from PvP.

Turtle_Bot

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I too don't understand if it's a problem for PVP why not just remove it from PVP? A PVP problem a PVP solution.

The thing is, it was not a problem for PvP that needed complete removal. The other changes ZOS made to the set (lower base damage and increased scaling) were enough to completely fix the set and allow it to continue to fill it's niche roll.

VenomSheru

How long are you going to nerf sets because of PvP Players complaining?

Does these changes do anything to pvp pop?

ArctosCethlenn

With a lower base and increased scaling it'd be fine in largescale to leave the scaling per target active in pvp for zerging down large stacked groups, then those changes make the set less viable for smallscale pvp which seems to be an acceptable tradeoff.

But outright removing the scaling damage from additional targets in pvp excessively neuters the set, against 6+ targets it's effectively a 7-fold nerf, from 280% of the current tooltip to 40%. I'm not sure a set has EVER been nerfed that hard? Hell I run a ball and can still see that it was overdone. I'd been expecting to see the set lose 10-15% off the top end at MOST, or gain longer delay between explosions, not a joke of a 7x reduction.

ApoAlaia

After giving this some more thought, they have effectively deleted the set from the game without actually deleting it from the game.

It not longer works on PvP (which is what started this 'conversation' but I don't PvP so I will leave the matter of whether this is good, bad or neither one nor the other but the complete opposite to those who do) and outside pushing for the absolute optimal composition (where it might, stress on might, be kept for the last pull before Taleria, Bahsei and Ansuul) it will not be used on PvE.

So, excellent job.

The icing on the cake would be if the left it as is on the PTS now but they re-enabled it to damage players. That would be just... sublime.

CameraBeardThePirate

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I too don't understand if it's a problem for PVP why not just remove it from PVP? A PVP problem a PVP solution.

It's only a real problem against smaller groups. It's the best set against any group >3.

It should only be the best set against groups larger than 8 or so. By changing the scaling, they would have fixed this problem, but then they removed the scaling from PvP entirely, effectively killing its use as a large group buster.

Pevey

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I too don't understand if it's a problem for PVP why not just remove it from PVP? A PVP problem a PVP solution.

It's only a real problem against smaller groups. It's the best set against any group >3.

It should only be the best set against groups larger than 8 or so. By changing the scaling, they would have fixed this problem, but then they removed the scaling from PvP entirely, effectively killing its use as a large group buster.

It's scaling is based on the number of people within the radius, not the number of ppl in the group. I think even for 4 ppl stacking right on top of each other, it was fair for it to be strong.

The alternative is for ZOS to finally stop cross healing and shields via Battle Spirit.

Ostonoha

Pevey wrote: »

The alternative is for ZOS to finally stop cross healing and shields via Battle Spirit.

So people who play healer and support toons in pvp should just quit the game?

I doubt that’s what you actually mean. Altho there are people who do actually hate seeing anyone cross healing at all. (How dare people work as a team in a multiplayer game)

If we’re gonna tell Zos how to fix the game. Let’s at least use proper wording so things don’t get worse for everyone. As everyone in this game cross heals to some extent. The proper statement you want to make is to limit the HOT stacking.


Simply removing cross healing/shielding like you suggested would destroy pvp.

VenomSheru

If it works only against monsters now, why is it being discussed in reference to PvP?

ApoAlaia

VenomSheru wrote: »

If it works only against monsters now, why is it being discussed in reference to PvP?

Because this set was originally flagged as a significant issue for PvP that required swift remediation before U44 and the update to BGs went live:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665492/azureblight-is-way-too-op-bg-update-will-make-it-worse#latest

However as is often the case the swift remediation pleased no one (except the devs I guess?).

Pevey

VenomSheru wrote: »

If it works only against monsters now, why is it being discussed in reference to PvP?

On live, AB works in PVP. But one ball group operative (who did not at first admit they were a ball grouper) led a disinformation campaign complaining Azure was killing small, unorganized groups (not true) and killing performance (no evidence--performance everywhere with every set is inconsistent right now). The OP in that thread was aided by 2-3 UIs, and ZOS fell for it hook, line, and sinker.