New necromancer companion is the biggest disappointment out of them all yet

Renato90085

When we know he is a Khajiit necro
I'm not surprised
Northern Elsweyr have a khajiit kindess necro order quest in Ashen Scar
and khajiit main enemy is fall soul so...yep it a reasonable settings

Erickson9610

The name and description of many of Zerith's skills are based on his unique way of utilizing necromancy. If we are to expect another Necromancer Companion in a few years, then any new Necromancer Companion would — like Tanlorin does with Bastian — only reuse a few abilities that Zerith has, introduce different "morphs" of Zerith's other abilities, and introduce other Player Necromancer abilities which didn't make the cut into Zerith's toolkit.

I like Zerith-var's take on necromancy, but I hope that the decision to name and theme so many of the existing Companion Necromancer abilities after him won't stifle the development of different kinds of Necromancer Companions in the future.

emilyhyoyeon

How Zerith-var works with necromancy is not something novel to me as that was the first thing I thought of when I was making one of my first ever TES characters, a ''not evil'' necromancer, during the Oblivion era. I've also seen several other TES fans over the years use effectively the same concept for their ''not evil'' necromancer OC as well.

Being something new coming from TES devs themselves is one thing, I suppose, and that's cool, but for me it is not enough to make me interested in this companion, especially since I was really looking forward 100x more to an altmer or bosmer necromancer. I'm pretty bitter about that.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

M1SHAAN wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Now tell me this character is also as obtrusive ("flirty") as Naryu, hates books, talks more than using the brain, generally doesn't seem to have a clue but still lectures us - and voilá: it's the epitome of everything that makes me dislike a character! I'd applaud ZOS for pushing the wrong buttons that accurately, though.

The first two are absolutely true lol. Though, in the short amount of time I messed around with them on the PTS (read: tried doing as many different things as I could think of to try to get a reaction), they didn't so much remind me of Ember or divines forbid, Eveli. Maybe moreso a more chaotic Darien? I'd say at least their flirting style is closer to Darien's flirting style than Naryu's if that makes it any better (or worse).

Yup. Heavy flirting with the player character in the first quest, lecture in the second quest, third quest

Tanlorin’s ex-girlfriend gripes about the player in a way that heavily implies the PC replaced them as a love interest.

Haven’t gotten to the fourth.

Someone also reported she does get a rapport loss from books, but I think it was Mage Guild lorebooks specifically, as I didn’t get dinged for reading notes during the quests.

nihonseanb14_ESO wrote: »

Did they even look at reporting on who is playing Necromancers and how many of those players are Vampires?

But was that a lore choice, an aesthetic choice, or a min-max choice on the part of those players, and how would ZOS tell?

Syldras

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Yup. Heavy flirting with the player character in the first quest, lecture in the second quest, third quest

Tanlorin’s ex-girlfriend gripes about the player in a way that heavily implies the PC replaced them as a love interest.

Haven’t gotten to the fourth.
Someone also reported she does get a rapport loss from books, but I think it was Mage Guild lorebooks specifically, as I didn’t get dinged for reading notes during the quests.

Eww... And let me guess: ZOS still hasn't given us any option to say "no, thank you" to the flirting? I really don't get it. Do they really not comprehend that some people aren't interested in such dialogue or find it repulsive instead of "charming"? Should at least give us an option to say no or give npcs a slap when they get too obstrusive (Jakarn's face would probably have been completely bloodied at the end of High Isle).

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Yup. Heavy flirting with the player character in the first quest, lecture in the second quest, third quest

Tanlorin’s ex-girlfriend gripes about the player in a way that heavily implies the PC replaced them as a love interest.

Haven’t gotten to the fourth.
Someone also reported she does get a rapport loss from books, but I think it was Mage Guild lorebooks specifically, as I didn’t get dinged for reading notes during the quests.

Eww... And let me guess: ZOS still hasn't given us any option to say "no, thank you" to the flirting? I really don't get it. Do they really not comprehend that some people aren't interested in such dialogue or find it repulsive instead of "charming"? Should at least give us an option to say no or give npcs a slap when they get too obstrusive (Jakarn's face would probably have been completely bloodied at the end of High Isle).

Yeah, the more I see of the altmer, the less I like them. I don't mind some flirting in video games, but I also wouldn't mind some way of going 'hey, that is enough, back off' and have the flirty dialogue replaced by regular dialogue.

I will have to wait and see when the companions are available to me, but sounds like Tanlorin is pretty much every trope I dislike about characters.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, the more I see of the altmer, the less I like them. I don't mind some flirting in video games, but I also wouldn't mind some way of going 'hey, that is enough, back off' and have the flirty dialogue replaced by regular dialogue.

There's a difference between witty banter that turns into flirting at some point, or plain and stupid "Herp derp hey handsome, did I tell you you're good looking!!!! herp derp you're so buff (while player character is a tiny skinny Bosmer)!!! We have just met but let me show you my bed!!!" Are people really into that?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I will have to wait and see when the companions are available to me, but sounds like Tanlorin is pretty much every trope I dislike about characters.

Yeah, I have exactly the same impression. It's a little fascinating.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, the more I see of the altmer, the less I like them. I don't mind some flirting in video games, but I also wouldn't mind some way of going 'hey, that is enough, back off' and have the flirty dialogue replaced by regular dialogue.

There's a difference between witty banter that turns into flirting at some point, or plain and stupid "Herp derp hey handsome, did I tell you you're good looking!!!! herp derp you're so buff (while player character is a tiny skinny Bosmer)!!! We have just met but let me show you my bed!!!" Are people really into that?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I will have to wait and see when the companions are available to me, but sounds like Tanlorin is pretty much every trope I dislike about characters.

Yeah, I have exactly the same impression. It's a little fascinating.

I agree about the witty banter vs the 'hey handsome'. I would say that apparently people are into it, with how many people I saw that liked Darien's dialogue.

It is fascinating how some characters can just hit every single button. I have found few that are the opposite (that hit everysingle 'I like this' buttons) and can't really think of any that are in ESO.

mdjessup4906

Yiu can't fill soul gems in front of this guy? So to level him u need to take out that soul skill line passive? That's dumb

Elvenheart

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Yiu can't fill soul gems in front of this guy? So to level him u need to take out that soul skill line passive? That's dumb

It’s been stated by several people that the passive does not trigger the negative rapport. One person also showed screenshots showing that it did not trigger it. As anything on the PTS, that’s subject to change, of course.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Syldras wrote: »

Eww... And let me guess: ZOS still hasn't given us any option to say "no, thank you" to the flirting?

Correct.

TaSheen

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Eww... And let me guess: ZOS still hasn't given us any option to say "no, thank you" to the flirting?

Correct.

Ewww is right....

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

Ewww is right....

Since we all find this very much ewww: Who does that writing cater to?

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Ewww is right....

Since we all find this very much ewww: Who does that writing cater to?

I don't know. Seriously, I know I'm old.... but this sort of thing wouldn't have appealed to me when I was 20 and sexually active! And now.... I've been married to this man for nearly 50 years, and.... um....

Sheesh. It's.... well, I don't even know WHAT to call it....

JemadarofCaerSalis

TaSheen wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Ewww is right....

Since we all find this very much ewww: Who does that writing cater to?

I don't know. Seriously, I know I'm old.... but this sort of thing wouldn't have appealed to me when I was 20 and sexually active! And now.... I've been married to this man for nearly 50 years, and.... um....

Sheesh. It's.... well, I don't even know WHAT to call it....

Sadly, it seems like that is what a lot of people want. That type of character shows up in a lot of fiction, and is typically annoying, to me, whenever they do. I think it may be because a lot of people equate that with confidence or being self-assured.

I have never really liked the whole 'flirty' trope. I much prefer the 'shy, nerdy' type. I don't want someone to lecture me, or to flirt with me incessantly, or to be so arrogant that I can't go two seconds in their company.

To me, I think what makes this worse, is that this seems to be happening right off the bat. It isn't something that happens gradually as you get to know the character, something that seems to develop naturally over time.

With these types of characters, it always is from the first moment they see you, they start flirting, and that always comes across as ...very shallow. Like, it doesn't matter who or what you are, this person is going to flirt. They know nothing about you or your personality, or even if you already have someone, they are flirting.

Oh well, hopefully the dialogue isn't as bad as I fear it is, and I can always just skip through most of it.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I think it may be because a lot of people equate that with confidence or being self-assured.

Or some people enjoy being complimented, even if it's by some fictional entity? I don't know, I'm just wondering.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To me, I think what makes this worse, is that this seems to be happening right off the bat. It isn't something that happens gradually as you get to know the character, something that seems to develop naturally over time.
With these types of characters, it always is from the first moment they see you, they start flirting, and that always comes across as ...very shallow. Like, it doesn't matter who or what you are, this person is going to flirt. They know nothing about you or your personality, or even if you already have someone, they are flirting.

This. This is the thing that almost repulses me about it. From my perspective, it feels like very easily written fanservice or the old "sex sells" principle. From my character's perspective, it feels like inhonest flattery. Both is... not the thing I prefer, to put it in a friendly way.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I have never really liked the whole 'flirty' trope. I much prefer the 'shy, nerdy' type. I don't want someone to lecture me, or to flirt with me incessantly, or to be so arrogant that I can't go two seconds in their company.

When it comes to companions, I might have a preference, but generally I'm fine with most kinds of characters, as long as it doesn't feel obtrusive. I really enjoy Azandar, but I'm also fine with knightly Isobel and bantering Mirri; I'd be fine with a slightly haughty Altmer mage as well as with an old unhurried cordial Nord fighter.

For me, the most annoying thing about the flirtyness is that it crosses personal boundaries (from a roleplaying perspective), and that it takes away the agency I have for my character, if that makes any sense? Because I cannot react on the flirting and the game seems to assume that my character finds it wonderful and just continues like that for whatever it takes until the questline is over. It's especially unenjoyable if it doesn't fit the idea I have of my character at all (and it's getting even weirder if not even the sexual orientation fits the one my character has) - as a roleplayer I know very well what one of my character likes, dislikes and what views they have. I don't want the game to imply through dialogues that my character is attracted to some random npc that I know they would dislike.

Ah yes, and that I also have a preference for "scholarly, calm, introverted" (shy might also be cute if they ever introduce companion romance) certainly also doesn't help when it comes to "cheerful and flirty" characters screeching at me from the screen.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Oh well, hopefully the dialogue isn't as bad as I fear it is, and I can always just skip through most of it.

I'll wait and see. And if it's indeed unpleasant, I'm not sure yet whether I'll rush through dialogues (for the first time in 8 years - normally I really take my time for them) and leveling just to get the house guest (sometimes houseguests are a good background prop, no matter who they are...), or if I skip it altogether.

Elvenheart

Me, I like Zerith-var’s take on Necromancy, but I like all things Azura so I was bound to like him. I can’t wait to see what type of companion he makes fully leveled.

My head canon for my vampires has always been that they are pledged to Azura as well as soon as we got the blue glowing eyes for our characters, so he’s going to fit right in with these misfits, even though he doesn’t like vampires in general. 😂

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I think it may be because a lot of people equate that with confidence or being self-assured.

Or some people enjoy being complimented, even if it's by some fictional entity? I don't know, I'm just wondering.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

To me, I think what makes this worse, is that this seems to be happening right off the bat. It isn't something that happens gradually as you get to know the character, something that seems to develop naturally over time.
With these types of characters, it always is from the first moment they see you, they start flirting, and that always comes across as ...very shallow. Like, it doesn't matter who or what you are, this person is going to flirt. They know nothing about you or your personality, or even if you already have someone, they are flirting.

This. This is the thing that almost repulses me about it. From my perspective, it feels like very easily written fanservice or the old "sex sells" principle. From my character's perspective, it feels like inhonest flattery. Both is... not the thing I prefer, to put it in a friendly way.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I have never really liked the whole 'flirty' trope. I much prefer the 'shy, nerdy' type. I don't want someone to lecture me, or to flirt with me incessantly, or to be so arrogant that I can't go two seconds in their company.

When it comes to companions, I might have a preference, but generally I'm fine with most kinds of characters, as long as it doesn't feel obtrusive. I really enjoy Azandar, but I'm also fine with knightly Isobel and bantering Mirri; I'd be fine with a slightly haughty Altmer mage as well as with an old unhurried cordial Nord fighter.

For me, the most annoying thing about the flirtyness is that it crosses personal boundaries (from a roleplaying perspective), and that it takes away the agency I have for my character, if that makes any sense? Because I cannot react on the flirting and the game seems to assume that my character finds it wonderful and just continues like that for whatever it takes until the questline is over. It's especially unenjoyable if it doesn't fit the idea I have of my character at all (and it's getting even weirder if not even the sexual orientation fits the one my character has) - as a roleplayer I know very well what one of my character likes, dislikes and what views they have. I don't want the game to imply through dialogues that my character is attracted to some random npc that I know they would dislike.

Ah yes, and that I also have a preference for "scholarly, calm, introverted" (shy might also be cute if they ever introduce companion romance) certainly also doesn't help when it comes to "cheerful and flirty" characters screeching at me from the screen.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Oh well, hopefully the dialogue isn't as bad as I fear it is, and I can always just skip through most of it.

I'll wait and see. And if it's indeed unpleasant, I'm not sure yet whether I'll rush through dialogues (for the first time in 8 years - normally I really take my time for them) and leveling just to get the house guest (sometimes houseguests are a good background prop, no matter who they are...), or if I skip it altogether.

So far, I haven't found any of the companions truly bad. I haven't really adventured with Sharp yet, still on Azandar, and I find their little interjections to be fun or easily ignorable, except Bastiens 'you are going to eat that aren't you?' when your lightning staff decides to rain doom and destruction down upon that poor hapless rodent that is somewhere outside your field of vision. Like come on Bastian, I will shove this staff into YOUR hands and see if you can hit the target with it, THEN lets talk!

(which reminds me, I am playing Fallout London, and boy do I have an issue with their companions, at least the one I currently have...)

That whole bit about it not fitting the sexual orientation is one of the reasons I dislike such dialogues. I also agree with you that it takes away agency, because even if your character DID swing that way, that doesn't mean they will necessarily like the companion.

For me, the companion, especially if it were a romance option (and going back to the male altmer :P) doesn't even have to be 'shy' but just a bit not as self-assured as they make most companions. Someone who isn't always sure that what he is doing is the right thing to do, or who is slightly unsure about mixing Columbine with Nirnroot (just looked it up, probably is a bad idea as it should waste the ingredients if I read the chart correctly. Assuming failed combining uses ingredients.)

TaSheen

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Someone who isn't always sure that what he is doing is the right thing to do, or who is slightly unsure about mixing Columbine with Nirnroot (just looked it up, probably is a bad idea as it should waste the ingredients if I read the chart correctly. Assuming failed combining uses ingredients.)

I don't think you lose the ingredients - the game tells you "inert potion" or something like that, so you don't complete the action.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I find their little interjections to be fun or easily ignorable, except Bastiens 'you are going to eat that aren't you?' when your lightning staff decides to rain doom and destruction down upon that poor hapless rodent that is somewhere outside your field of vision.

Maybe he's hungry and wants to know whether he can eat the rat if you don't want it?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

For me, the companion, especially if it were a romance option (and going back to the male altmer :P) doesn't even have to be 'shy' but just a bit not as self-assured as they make most companions. Someone who isn't always sure that what he is doing is the right thing to do, or who is slightly unsure about mixing Columbine with Nirnroot

Sounds pleasant. Unless they exaggerate it to complete incompetency or helplessness.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

(just looked it up, probably is a bad idea as it should waste the ingredients if I read the chart correctly. Assuming failed combining uses ingredients.)

Try cornflower instead and you'll have a nice poison, if I don't remember wrong (at least I can remember I found it terribly funny that cornflower is poisonous in ESO - in real life, it's edible, one can make tea out of it, etc; tastes of nothing, btw).

Supreme_Atromancer

TheBardAtTheInn wrote: »

I applaud ZOS for making one of the most interesting takes on a necromancer that I've seen in a while. Someone who uses the manipulation of souls to redeem them is so interesting, not to mention his deep ties to the super fascinating Khajiit lore and mythology. Plus, him being a morally good necromancer make sense when considering khajiit culture and their less strict view of necromancy as evil compared to other races.

Yeah, he seems fascinating to me! I haven't gone on the PTS, but from what I've read, they've gone with a very interesting take on what a necromancer could be, done it with a very good understanding of some fascinating lore, and it doesn't feel too cliche. I really can't wait to discover this dude's story.

I do support the call for some more evil-ish companions, I think that will be fun. But this companion just seems really interesting to me.

Syldras

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Someone also reported she does get a rapport loss from books, but I think it was Mage Guild lorebooks specifically, as I didn’t get dinged for reading notes during the quests.

Short question: Does this happen every time with every lorebook read (except for small notes within quests or similar), or only when a new book is discovered? Even if it's a horribly useless design choice, it's probably the former?

Darkstorne

TheBardAtTheInn wrote: »

I applaud ZOS for making one of the most interesting takes on a necromancer that I've seen in a while. Someone who uses the manipulation of souls to redeem them is so interesting, not to mention his deep ties to the super fascinating Khajiit lore and mythology. Plus, him being a morally good necromancer make sense when considering khajiit culture and their less strict view of necromancy as evil compared to other races.

Bang on.

This thread has sold me on the character, and reminded me that this community can be really weird at times. ZOS is writing a really unique take on how necromancy fits into TES lore and Khajiit culture, and many of you are mad that they haven't just written a genre stereotype for you...

Run a quick search on the definition of Necromancy. it is: the practice of magic involving communication with the dead by summoning their spirits as apparitions or visions for the purpose of divination. It is not: edge-lord evil doers doing evil in edgy ways.

Syldras

Darkstorne wrote: »

Run a quick search on the definition of Necromancy. it is: the practice of magic involving communication with the dead by summoning their spirits as apparitions or visions for the purpose of divination. It is not: edge-lord evil doers doing evil in edgy ways.

Where do you have that definition from? Sounds like it's from a general lexicon which mainly focuses on the real world historical, esoteric and ethnoreligious concept, not the one in fiction? And of course it's communication (attempts) in the real world, as it isn't possible to really reanimate the dead in reality. In fiction, things are different.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Syldras wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

I find their little interjections to be fun or easily ignorable, except Bastiens 'you are going to eat that aren't you?' when your lightning staff decides to rain doom and destruction down upon that poor hapless rodent that is somewhere outside your field of vision.

Maybe he's hungry and wants to know whether he can eat the rat if you don't want it?

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

For me, the companion, especially if it were a romance option (and going back to the male altmer :P) doesn't even have to be 'shy' but just a bit not as self-assured as they make most companions. Someone who isn't always sure that what he is doing is the right thing to do, or who is slightly unsure about mixing Columbine with Nirnroot

Sounds pleasant. Unless they exaggerate it to complete incompetency or helplessness.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

(just looked it up, probably is a bad idea as it should waste the ingredients if I read the chart correctly. Assuming failed combining uses ingredients.)

Try cornflower instead and you'll have a nice poison, if I don't remember wrong (at least I can remember I found it terribly funny that cornflower is poisonous in ESO - in real life, it's edible, one can make tea out of it, etc; tastes of nothing, btw).

That may be, but then he can actually use his words and TELL me he wants that rat. I can't read his mind! and I am usually in the middle of battle!

Yeah, that would be the true issue, not having it exaggerated to the point that the companion comes across as useless or helpless. I am thinking something along the lines of 'I am always unsure whether to combine cornflower or nirnroot to make poison' (or, depending on the character, it could be something where using one would make a healing potion, the other a poison, if there are any like that)

That reminded me of everyone telling me to try chamomille tea to relax. I tried some and thought 'I just drank a hay bale!' Looked up what chamomille was, and I am pretty sure we have them growing in our fields, or did, and I likely DID eat some while picking up square bales for our horses...

zaria

Syldras wrote: »

I have the impression they don't want to rely on the biggest stereotypes when creating companions (otherwise Azandar would have become an Altmer), but there's a large span between the absolutely stereotypical comic book villain (evil laughter, eating children, kicking puppies) and the "typical good hero". Something inbetween, at least morally grey, might have been a better decision. But then again, I don't want to judge yet - maybe his whole story is very well-written and explains everything. I've only read parts of it yet, as I'm not logging into PTS this time.

Both Ember and Sharp fit well here.

Now disliking filling soulgems who is an passive in soul magic is weird.

Malprave

I played Zerith-var’s quest line on the PTS and I enjoyed it. I like the character and I’ll definitely be using him.

Asys

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I'm upset that the new companion isn't Darth Vader myself.

Syldras

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

That may be, but then he can actually use his words and TELL me he wants that rat. I can't read his mind! and I am usually in the middle of battle!

Maybe just cook him a rat sometime soon. But without cheese, we don't want him to become sick, after all!

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Yeah, that would be the true issue, not having it exaggerated to the point that the companion comes across as useless or helpless.

Then again, that young Imperial soldier who was whimpering in fear through the whole Fort Colovia quest in the last chapter was adorable somehow. Like a scared little puppy

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

That reminded me of everyone telling me to try chamomille tea to relax. I tried some and thought 'I just drank a hay bale!' Looked up what chamomille was, and I am pretty sure we have them growing in our fields, or did, and I likely DID eat some while picking up square bales for our horses...

It really grows almost everywhere. But seriously, for relaxation hop (humulus) should help. Even in its cold and fermented form, also known as beer

tsaescishoeshiner

I like that ZOS hasn't given in to just "muahaha evil necromancer", and the character sounds very interesting and lore-based to me.

We'll get more Companions, and I'm down for one that's less heroic and upstanding.

I think we need more DLC where we get to be "evil" or morally gray. The Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild were good examples. Only issue is then some people wouldn't wanna to do the quests if they don't fit their characters' rolepay, so they would complain about not being able to do the new zone quests. Edgier Companions could be good for that, since not every character needs to do them.