How will the AI that monitors our in-game chats effect RP?

Syldras

Carcamongus wrote: »

"I'm sorry Draveth Telvanni, I'm afraid I can't do that."

For any Telvanni, this is a challenge!

No, really, now I'm somehow stupidly curious... Does the ban take place immediately? Or is there a warning beforehand?

If there's a warning, I'd test my way through... this!

brylars wrote: »

Themes like:
How Dunmer really treat their slaves
One race's view of another race
Vigilante religious fervor or anti-religious rhetoric
Political intrigue
Plotting murder
Conversation between lovers

...until the warning triggers.

And my poor Bosmer friend will get a dramatic and weirdly entertaining show tonight to endure it

Elsonso

Sleepsin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Wow. A bot should not be monitoring and reporting on private conversations. Unless a person reports it, nothing should be done. What's next? Monitoring Discord?

It's hilarious that in a game that has us running around killing people, and that includes the thieves guild, the dark brotherhood, slavery, and necromancy, they are concerned about what's being said in private chat between consenting adults.

Do you really think Discord is not being monitored?

I meant by ZOS.

The AI monitoring program wasn't written by ZOS. A 3rd party programmer makes them and sells the use of it to companies like ZOS. A discord channel flagged as an ESO rp guild could very well being monitored by the same program that is watching in-game chat channels.

How do you know this?

brylars

The zone chat is so quiet now.

BagOfBadgers

This has the feeling of the "Scunthorpe problem" 2.0

TaSheen

Pelanora wrote: »

Zos shouldn't be banning words!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever tool they use to track it is not the point they shouldn't be banning words or phrases!

Having AI or a lookup or a person read for some list of phrases some puritan has created is awful!

We should have free speech.

Ban behaviours, ban abuse and nastiness and stalking- etc. Which is about intent and context and effect on a person.

Not speech alone.

We in the US are only guaranteed free speech when the government is involved. Freedom of speech is the right to express ideas and opinions without fear of punishment, retaliation, or interference from the government; this is provided by the First Amendment of the Constitution.

A private organization is not bound to provide freedom of speech within its domains - which in this case herein, includes anything provided by ZOS. Now, I'll have to go back to read the TOS and EULA to see if anywhere in there it refers to OUR being protected when using any of the private message, chat, etc capabilities in ZOS's provided software. I don't honestly remember if there's anything like that in there or not. I read the last changes fairly deeply, but didn't check anything not said to be changed.

I_killed_Vivec

Kashya_Vulano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Monitoring keywords does not equal AI or bots... Setting up a monitor on all in-game coms to flag specific words used in chat literally requires zero AI. It's no different than a basic word sensor on forums or in character creation. A simple query against a database of flagged words that returns a simple result.

Here's a snippet from the TOS. It doesn't have to mean AI, you're right, but this is also in the terms of service.

It's been a while since I last did the compulsory GDPR training my company makes us do, but I believe that use of AI/algorithms is not illegal as long as they tell you and you agree to it - and there it is in the ToS, which we all agree to...

Though what I find chilling is the Minority Report echos of "proactive", rather than just reactive, moderation. The implication being they will punish you if the AI thinks you're going to be naughty...

That's a problem for me because even I think I'm going to be naughty

Arunei

I really hope the team takes their review seriously. This is going to do absolutely nothing but make even more work for CS and cause ridiculous amounts of frustration for players.

@ZOS_Kevin Could you please pass on for the team to actually consider the game they're wanting to so heavily censor? Molag Bal is the Lord of Domination, S/A is basically one of his main things. It's how the first Vampire was made. There's a damn brothel in-game! NPCs curse and are lewd. We get most of our experience killing mobs. There's all sorts of suggestive themes.

Because it's a Mature rated game! The whole TES universe is pretty dark when you think about a lot of it. There's a whole group dedicated to murder and assassination and stuff. We have books like The Real Barenziah or however it's spelled, the 36 Sermons, The Lusty Argonian Maid, and others. We have in-game trinkets like lewd reliefs and the Altmer book that's a guide to 'proper reproduction methods'. AND we already have an in-game censor that's too sensitive as it is.

What, are people going to get suspended or banned now for saying 'whisper me' because the word <snip>, which isn't even a curse word or rude, is created by those two words? And as someone asked earlier, what about words in other languages? There are plenty of words in English that mean something offensive in other languages, and vice versa.

There's just so much that clearly was not considered. I can only hope the person who mentioned earlier that maybe this isn't supposed to be working this way is right, especially given we had no official warning or notice about it.

Then again, the devs have made unannounced changes in the past...

Edit: lol my example was censored, because I guess adults can't handle seeing the word of the substance that makes babies possible.

Edit 2: And now it's not censored? Uh...lolwat? I'm confused now x__x.

<snipped for Cursing and Profanity/Inappropriate Content and Language>

LadyGP

Isn't there an in game profanity filter that can be enabled and disabled for a reason?

Syldras

Arunei wrote: »

Edit: lol my example was censored, because I guess adults can't handle seeing the word of the substance that makes babies possible.
Edit 2: And now it's not censored? Uh...lolwat? I'm confused now x__x.

It shows uncensored (to you) immediately after you've made a posting (and in the edit window). Once you reload the page after posting, you will see it censored, too.

Tested it some while ago.

Varana

There are also cultural differences to look out for.

The esp. American taboo around some swear words is not shared around the world to the same degree. Not even in every English-speaking country. And even less so in other countries where English is used as a second language. Many are more liberal with swear words in their own language, and even more so with random English swear words because they're foreign and don't carry much cultural baggage.
I've heard people use several English four letter words as a milder substitute for German swear words exactly because of that. "Die Situation ist sch..." is still a bit graphic, though much less so and way more acceptable than in English. "Die Situation ist sh...", with the swear word replaced by its English equivalent, is almost child-friendly.

Which means that again, sanctioning people without a human looking closely at the context of the conversation, is a really bad idea (TM).

TaSheen

LadyGP wrote: »

Isn't there an in game profanity filter that can be enabled and disabled for a reason?

Yes, there is. I don't know how much it's used.... I like it on personally.

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

Yes, there is. I don't know how much it's used.... I like it on personally.

I could live without the profanity, but the filter makes some languages incomprehensible. It was no joke when I wrote some pages ago that you can't even write the German word for "turkey ham", as it consists of two swearwords, according to the filter

I know the whole thing isn't funny. But in the end, we can just wait for ZOS' reply right now.

TaSheen

Yeah, I already knew about the "turkey ham" issue from a German friend. And also I've run across the statement about some words in various languages being really objectionable in other languages. Since I don't group and never look at zone chat, I don't have to worry about the other languages issue, so I'm quite happy to live without the profanity....

sleepy_worm

This is by far the worst decision anyone at ZOS has ever made regarding the direction of ESO, and it has some stiff competition in that department. All parties involved in greenlighting this should be reevaluated for fitness to perform the duties of their employment. This is not hyperbole.

I know the TOS is one-sided and weighted heavily against the user, but until now I had continued to operate on the faith that it would not be misused. I was mistaken. Why should anyone invest money in content and cosmetics whose access can be removed at the whims of an algorithm? I'm going to be paying close attention to this issue to see how it pans out, but I am a lot less likely to dump money into my account after seeing some of the fallout of this change.

xclassgaming

Is this true? i have only seen this in this specific thread, anyone have proof of this happening?

Pelanora

TaSheen wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Zos shouldn't be banning words!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever tool they use to track it is not the point they shouldn't be banning words or phrases!

Having AI or a lookup or a person read for some list of phrases some puritan has created is awful!

We should have free speech.

Ban behaviours, ban abuse and nastiness and stalking- etc. Which is about intent and context and effect on a person.

Not speech alone.

We in the US are only guaranteed free speech when the government is involved. Freedom of speech is the right to express ideas and opinions without fear of punishment, retaliation, or interference from the government; this is provided by the First Amendment of the Constitution.

A private organization is not bound to provide freedom of speech within its domains - which in this case herein, includes anything provided by ZOS. Now, I'll have to go back to read the TOS and EULA to see if anywhere in there it refers to OUR being protected when using any of the private message, chat, etc capabilities in ZOS's provided software. I don't honestly remember if there's anything like that in there or not. I read the last changes fairly deeply, but didn't check anything not said to be changed.

Yes I know all this. There's a lot of world outside the US.

People can ask for speech to be left free, without having to bring in the US constitution.

TaSheen

Then you should have stated that your post was related to other countries....

thinkaboutit

How was the voice of the customer captured on this decision? Or is this a cost savings endeavor. @ZOS_Kevin

Arizona_Steve

I've already decided to take a month off as there's not much of value in the Daily Rewards and I'm not that interested in running dungeons. But I have noticed that the zone chat has fallen silent in recent months and perhaps this is the reason why.

I'm a technology guy and I despise AI more and more each day. It was supposed to make our lives easier but like a lot of technology it seems to have had the opposite effect. It is impacting the careers of creative types. It is used to create a torrent of misinformation and pollutes Youtube and other sites with cheap, worthless junk. And now it is being used for heavy handed moderation of our favorite game without any concept of context.

I really hope for a lawsuit that results in the obsolescence of this primitive and abusive technology. It cannot happen soon enough.

SeaGtGruff

Ugrak wrote: »

all this reminded me of the Roman goddess Justitiae, and how her "justice is blind" being an exhortation to juries to remember that the moral responsibility for reining it in rests on them.

Is that what it's supposed to mean? I always thought that it was supposed to mean that justice is supposed to apply equally to all, without any bias due to one's social standing, race, religion, political views, etc.

Pelanora

TaSheen wrote: »

Then you should have stated that your post was related to other countries....

No lol. Noone needs to say 'this isn't about the US' in any post they make on a global forum about a global game. Lmao just seriously, no.

FlopsyPrince

notyuu wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

BlueViolet wrote: »

Why do we even have a profanity filter if people are going to be AI banned for words?

I also am a grown woman, and don't need AI or even people deciding for me what is appropriate for me to see and read. If I'm offended by something, I'll report it myself.
It is, as someone mentioned above, incredibly disturbing to find that perhaps even our private messages are being monitored, and especially by an AI, that as was also mentioned above, cannot tell or understand context.

I was in Deshaan for nearly an hour this morning, and zone chat was silent. Just completely blank. Not even any guild recruitment messages. Before I left, one message popped up which was someone asking about pledges, which got no responses. It's like people were actually afraid to talk. It seems to have been pretty quiet elsewhere too.
That's not a good thing.

It is likely also a sign of fewer and fewer players.

Or the fact that on weekdays most of the player base will be at work/school

A good number of MMOs have players throughout the entire day.

Syldras

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A good number of MMOs have players throughout the entire day.

I can't say anything about the US server, but on PC EU, there's a big difference between evening time and the rest of the day. It's most crowded between maybe 5 pm and 11 pm our time (with a peak between 8 and 10, I'd say). In the afternoon it's emptier, and even more so at all other times. Unless it's vacation or holiday time or so.

Arunei

Syldras wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Edit: lol my example was censored, because I guess adults can't handle seeing the word of the substance that makes babies possible.
Edit 2: And now it's not censored? Uh...lolwat? I'm confused now x__x.

It shows uncensored (to you) immediately after you've made a posting (and in the edit window). Once you reload the page after posting, you will see it censored, too.

Tested it some while ago.

Idk my post got snipped and the word removed so I guess somehow the censor broke or something? It must have been showing as the actual word for everyone or else the normal forum censoring would have been enough and it wouldn't have gotten snipped. Still confused as to how that happened but eh.

Anyway, here's hoping we'll actually get an update on this come next week and it won't just go completely uncommented on.

Pelanora

Syldras wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A good number of MMOs have players throughout the entire day.

I can't say anything about the US server, but on PC EU, there's a big difference between evening time and the rest of the day. It's most crowded between maybe 5 pm and 11 pm our time (with a peak between 8 and 10, I'd say). In the afternoon it's emptier, and even more so at all other times. Unless it's vacation or holiday time or so.

Omg yea tamriel is an empty world most of the time I play. Totally solo place. Get up early to catch prime evening EU time it is like a totally other game.

Ugrak

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Is that what it's supposed to mean? I always thought that it was supposed to mean that justice is supposed to apply equally to all, without any bias due to one's social standing, race, religion, political views, etc.

It is one of several meanings one can arrive at.

A society operating under the rule of law (as opposed to the arbitrary rule of man) aspires toward applying the laws with minimal bias. So the saying that "justice is blind" makes sense in that way too.

The other one is more to serve as a metaphor of how the laws themselves are incapable of exercising judgement of any kind. A senseless algorithm, brutal and uncaring. Like an ancient deity, blindfolded and armed with a sword. It knows nothing of justice or context. It only knows that the law is the law, and if the law is invoked then the sword falls.

So ideally there are humans in the loop moderating the process. Lawyers, juries, judges and a decision space to dismiss cases, or arrive at leinent or strict punishments in the range provided for a given crime. Of course it relies on vetting individuals for suitability and keeping the process transparent to outside reviewers so corruption cannot easily be concealed. It's easier said than done to live up to the ideal.

In short you can view it as Justitiae's blind justice bringing people into courts, but the humans taking it from there.

LaintalAy

thinkaboutit wrote: »

How was the voice of the customer captured on this decision? Or is this a cost savings endeavor. @ZOS_Kevin

Unless you have Microsoft shares, you aren't a customer; you're a resource.

darvaria

Isn't ESO an adult game? Over 18? I don't see where this affects me but WHY would such limits be placed on RPers?

RaikaNA

darvaria wrote: »

Isn't ESO an adult game? Over 18? I don't see where this affects me but WHY would such limits be placed on RPers?

I would think with the background of Molag Bal that the game should be rated M for mature adults only. Not sure I would feel comfortable letting a minor do the vampire questline to become a vampire.

Syldras

If you scroll down, there's a rating banner on the lower left of the site:



Obviously "mature audiences" have to be protected from swear words.