How will the AI that monitors our in-game chats effect RP?

Sepultura_13

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Doesn't concern me... I'm too busy swearing at the screen to bother typing anything into chat

Exactly. I can't imagine being someone who would take the time to type an insult to an NPC, much less try to insult another player.

I shout and swear at the screen IRL, and that's it...I get it out of my system, rez wherever, and then continue on with whatever I was doing. Otherwise, I queue up for ToT and relax by playing cards.

I pretend that I'm playing Texas Hold'Em on the World Poker Tour while Lady GaGa screeches "Poker Face" in the background.

Makes me laugh the entire time.

WitchyKiki

IrisDupree wrote: »

AI should be used for nothing in games where it is not backed up by humans checking the context. AI cannot read intent, it cannot read jokes, it cannot tell the difference in a curse word (which should not matter since we can turn on a filter.) said in RP or used to cause hurt in PVP or pve.

AI should just be heavily controlled and put laws against it policing actual humans.

TaSheen

I occasionally type "damn" or "hell" in a post on the forum.... but in game? Oh good grief, why would I? No one's going to "hear" it, after all.

gamma71

The only thing that needs AI is our companions!

spartaxoxo

This is actually pretty dystopian stuff. I mean, if no harm was caused, then what is the issue?

Why would a human being not be monitoring for CONTEXT and not purely whether or not a banned word was uttered.

I didn't do this in this game. But in another game I developed a pretty good friendship with one player. We are friends to this day. I don't want to go into too much detail here. But, I opened up to someone about a hate incident I experienced as a child. During that conversation, I explained that I knew it was racially motivated because the person who did it to me used a racial slur against me as a black person while doing it.

Would I be banned for opening up about a traumatic event to someone I trusted because I used a slur? Newsflash. People of color get called slurs sometimes. One of us explaining a racist incident that happened to us to someone we trust isn't the same thing as someone using a slur to be hateful. I think ignoring that context would be really shameful. And in the case of AI, may result in racial disparities in suspensions.

There isn't any word I can think that should automatically result in a suspension that completely ignores context. Context is key to moderation and requires a human being.

Why on Earth would suspensions not require human input?

It is disturbing thinking about the use of AI to hand out suspensions without a human being monitoring for context!

TaSheen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This is actually pretty dystopian stuff. I mean, if no harm was caused, then what is the issue?

Why would a human being not be monitoring for CONTEXT and not purely whether or not a banned word was uttered.

Because paying humans to do the work is a LOT more money over time than buying access to an AI.... Look at all the groceries/big box stores these days - there are a ton more "self check" aisles than those with human checkers. Personally, I won't use self-check - I'm never in a hurry, and I will use the human checkers no matter how long it takes.... because self-check takes jobs away from REAL PEOPLE.

FlopsyPrince

I suspect some things will be permitted and some things banned outright. Though the bans will be based on modern political winds more than reality.

Ah well.

brylars

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to chime in here. We’re looking into some of the questions in the thread and checking in with the team for feedback. Since it’s pretty late in the day on a Friday, we probably won’t have any feedback until earlier next week. But wanted to acknowledge that we’ve seen this and are investigating.

For now, anyone with ban issues, please make sure to put in an appeal and share your ticket number. Happy to pass those along.

Thank you for responding. We look forward to ZOS' official response to these concerns.

TheMajority

I do not appreciate AI deciding for me to report other peoples. Is that not for me as a autonomous human to decide on?

I am not a small boy, I do not need someone to watch out for me and protect me from my wife asking me to craft her some small purple fruits for her table. I am not offended by fruits.

I'm not naming the fruits just in case

BlueViolet

Why do we even have a profanity filter if people are going to be AI banned for words?

I also am a grown woman, and don't need AI or even people deciding for me what is appropriate for me to see and read. If I'm offended by something, I'll report it myself.
It is, as someone mentioned above, incredibly disturbing to find that perhaps even our private messages are being monitored, and especially by an AI, that as was also mentioned above, cannot tell or understand context.

I was in Deshaan for nearly an hour this morning, and zone chat was silent. Just completely blank. Not even any guild recruitment messages. Before I left, one message popped up which was someone asking about pledges, which got no responses. It's like people were actually afraid to talk. It seems to have been pretty quiet elsewhere too.
That's not a good thing.

WolfCombatPet

World of Warcraft AI monitoring has gotten so bad that their AI now checks RP addon bio descriptions.

It isn't even IN-GAME chat.

RPers are not allowed to mention anything remotely sexual, even when it is respectful, has hurt no one, and is only written in an RP addon that is not in base game.

The whole idea of monitoring something that hasn't even been reported by another player is absurd. There is PLENTY to monitor from players reporting actual toxicity.

AI might be the cheap way to monitor, but it's not doing the RP community any good.

WoW RP with game-chat has DIED because of this. WoW players go to Discord to RP now
I hope the same does not happen to ESO.

FlopsyPrince

WolfCombatPet wrote: »

World of Warcraft AI monitoring has gotten so bad that their AI now checks RP addon bio descriptions.

It isn't even IN-GAME chat.

RPers are not allowed to mention anything remotely sexual, even when it is respectful, has hurt no one, and is only written in an RP addon that is not in base game.

The whole idea of monitoring something that hasn't even been reported by another player is absurd. There is PLENTY to monitor from players reporting actual toxicity.

AI might be the cheap way to monitor, but it's not doing the RP community any good.

WoW RP with game-chat has DIED because of this. WoW players go to Discord to RP now
I hope the same does not happen to ESO.

WoW is doing so well otherwise, right?

What is it with so many game companies today? Are they trying to end their products?

FlopsyPrince

BlueViolet wrote: »

Why do we even have a profanity filter if people are going to be AI banned for words?

I also am a grown woman, and don't need AI or even people deciding for me what is appropriate for me to see and read. If I'm offended by something, I'll report it myself.
It is, as someone mentioned above, incredibly disturbing to find that perhaps even our private messages are being monitored, and especially by an AI, that as was also mentioned above, cannot tell or understand context.

I was in Deshaan for nearly an hour this morning, and zone chat was silent. Just completely blank. Not even any guild recruitment messages. Before I left, one message popped up which was someone asking about pledges, which got no responses. It's like people were actually afraid to talk. It seems to have been pretty quiet elsewhere too.
That's not a good thing.

It is likely also a sign of fewer and fewer players.

dcrush

Dear ZOS,

Terminator and Minority Report were warnings, not instruction manuals.

notyuu

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

BlueViolet wrote: »

Why do we even have a profanity filter if people are going to be AI banned for words?

I also am a grown woman, and don't need AI or even people deciding for me what is appropriate for me to see and read. If I'm offended by something, I'll report it myself.
It is, as someone mentioned above, incredibly disturbing to find that perhaps even our private messages are being monitored, and especially by an AI, that as was also mentioned above, cannot tell or understand context.

I was in Deshaan for nearly an hour this morning, and zone chat was silent. Just completely blank. Not even any guild recruitment messages. Before I left, one message popped up which was someone asking about pledges, which got no responses. It's like people were actually afraid to talk. It seems to have been pretty quiet elsewhere too.
That's not a good thing.

It is likely also a sign of fewer and fewer players.

Or the fact that on weekdays most of the player base will be at work/school

DaiKahn

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Why on Earth would suspensions not require human input?

Mod Disclaimer: not saying this actually happens in ESO, this is a generalised statement

Because it's easier and cost-effective to firstly put the onus on the person being banned or suspended?

If the person feels wronged, they put in a ticket and hopefully a human decides to help

It's like this in all the bigger games I play/have played over the years and I don't think it'll ever change

spartaxoxo

Suspensions should require a person. At the very least in the flagging process. These aren't suspensions being handed out because a person flagged it. It's literally their AI combing through ALL chat.

Even in the other game I play it at least requires a human to flag things before a suspension occurs.

DaiKahn

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suspensions should require a person. At the very least in the flagging process. These aren't suspensions being handed out because a person flagged it. It's literally their AI combing through ALL chat.

Even in the other game I play it at least requires a human to flag things before a suspension occurs.

I'm in agreeance with you, Sparta; I was just giving my thoughts on why companies may do this

There should always be human revision on any and all suspensions/bannings because some people have spent hundreds and even thousands on their game of choice to just have it taken away in a blink of an eye

I'm so paranoid about this I generally don't talk in chat in games I play (I use Discord). And if I talk on their [games] forums, I try to have as neutral speech as possible

Tra_Lalan

This is outrageous!

Im a grown up man (43 years old), paying my money for a video game service to have fun, ZOS you are here to deliver me entertainment, not to tell me what words or jokes I can use in my private conversations.

Also we are missing more important thing here: Theese are private conversations. Monitoring them is just illegal. Don't know how law works in your country, but in mine a civil agreement between two sites cannot put on hold peoples' civil rights nor allow one person to commit a crime on the other. And as a citizen I have a right that my private conersations stay private. And also there is an explict legal regulation of a crime called violation of the secrecy of correspondence.
When we speak about accepting TOS - in this case ZOS is a Proffesional and we are Consumers which also gives us a lot of Law protection against what is called abusive contract terms.
That is at least how it works in my country (Poland - EU). Dont know the law in US.

Also banning people for jokes? I still remember comunism in my country. People where punished for jokes back then. Is this the way you modern corporations want to go? Totalitarian regime? Did someone forget to read Orwells books?
Sorry but this just makes me want to quit this game.
As a loyal customer, paying for the service from 2020, buying all the chapters, buying crowns I demand a writen statement from ZOS concerning this activity. Till the time this gets somehow resolved I stop any funding on this game and company.

Sorry but I'm not going to pay a single penny to get invigilated like this.

Pelanora

Zos should not ban words or phrases, or ban people for using them.


Behaviour- stalking, abusing, harassing, should be the focus, not words and phrases.

Aurielle

Beyond the incredibly dystopian implications of having private chat moderated by AI that lacks human nuance and context, I have to wonder how much of an effect all this monitoring is having on server performance?

If AI chat monitoring is responsible for the lag spikes many of us have been experiencing out of the blue for the last few months, please reconsider its use.

BahometZ

First they came for the end-game raiders, and I did not speak out. For I was not an end-game raider.

Then they came for the traders, and I did not speak out. For I was not a trader.

Then they came for the role players, and I did not speak out. For I was not a role player.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak.

Aurielle

Aurielle wrote: »

Beyond the incredibly dystopian implications of having private chat moderated by AI that lacks human nuance and context, I have to wonder how much of an effect all this monitoring is having on server performance?

If AI chat monitoring is responsible for the lag spikes many of us have been experiencing out of the blue for the last few months, please reconsider its use.

Just to follow up on this, here’s something I found:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/ai-services/openai/how-to/latency

Azure OpenAI includes a content filtering system that works alongside the core models. This system works by running both the prompt and completion through an ensemble of classification models aimed at detecting and preventing the output of harmful content.

The content filtering system detects and takes action on specific categories of potentially harmful content in both input prompts and output completions.

The addition of content filtering comes with an increase in safety, but also latency. There are many applications where this tradeoff in performance is necessary, however there are certain lower risk use cases where disabling the content filters to improve performance might be worth exploring.

If AI content filtering is the reason why I frequently can’t barswap or use potions in Cyrodiil these days, why I frequently see mobs rubberbanding in IA, why my guild mates are getting disconnected during Cyrodiil guild events and trials, why my friends list is rapidly dwindling because people are frustrated with performance over the last few months… then my days in this game are unfortunately numbered.

I’m so tired of AI being touted as the way of the future and the answer to all of our problems — it’s creating more problems than it’s solving.

CoolBlast3

If this is intentional and/or isn't rolled back entirely I'm kinda done. I like ESO as a game, but a vast majority of my 10000 hours of playtime are RP and my purchase power goes directly to stuff I can use in RP. With this, I can no longer RP without fear of being banned for calling a fellow RPer's character stupid in roleplay. So I'll no longer spend money on the game. Simple as.

Varana

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to chime in here. We’re looking into some of the questions in the thread and checking in with the team for feedback. Since it’s pretty late in the day on a Friday, we probably won’t have any feedback until earlier next week. But wanted to acknowledge that we’ve seen this and are investigating.

For now, anyone with ban issues, please make sure to put in an appeal and share your ticket number. Happy to pass those along.

This post is not on the Dev Tracker. Why?

I really hope that the "investigation" will result in the promise that bans from this system will only be handed out by an actual human respecting context, and bans for private or solo chat will only be handed out for actual illegal, i.e. criminal things, not swear words or consensual descriptions of whatever content.

Syldras

Varana wrote: »

I really hope that the "investigation" will result in the promise that bans from this system will only be handed out by an actual human respecting context, and bans for private or solo chat will only be handed out for actual illegal, i.e. criminal things, not swear words or consensual descriptions of whatever content.

That probably still goes against privacy laws in many countries. Private communication is often legally protected, no one else is allowed to read private messages except for the sender and the intended recipient. The only exception might be the police/law enforcement, but only if there already is a serious suspicion about a serious crime being planned by the involved persons earlier. And even for that, a court has to allow the observation in exactly this case beforehand.

Thee_Cheshire_Cat

Used to be, if someone had a problem with someone, they would simply take a screenshot and send in a harassment ticket. Then it was taken into consideration by an ACTUAL human being.

To think they are also monitoring PRIVATE messages and things in our private homes is sickening.

i seriously hope they reconsider what they are doing, and what would happen if they continue.

Ugrak

Syldras wrote: »

That probably still goes against privacy laws in many countries. Private communication is often legally protected, no one else is allowed to read private messages except for the sender and the intended recipient.

I do not know that the chat functions of a MMO qualifies for such legal protection. However it did spark a question in my mind. You (playing on EU; possibly being a citizen of the EU also) previously in this thread mention being surprised to not have been sanctioned.

While I haven't looked into where other players who report being sanctioned are coming from, it seems relevant to mention EU specific legal frameworks such as the EU AI act and GDPR as possible explanations, as several major AI services do not operate in the EU market (or at least postpone deployment) specifically because of this.

I_killed_Vivec

They'll be banning milk drinking next!

Prophet_of_Malacath

The only thing AI should get banned, is whoever signed off on such an atrocious idea, so they're not within 100 feet of any decision making capabilities again.

This franchise is over 30 years old.

In ESO, alone, we fight Molag Bal, the King of *** and meet Lamae. Our first quest involves our own kidnap and murder. Sheogorath has people going mad and offing themselves. Mephala's whispers encourage a man to sacrifice his own wife. Slaves are taken. War and thievery, assassinations in the Dark Brotherhood, more bones in some delves than in an in ossuary.

Maaaaaaybe before censors are given decision making abilities, they should actually be familiar with the franchise?

In an age of Game of Thrones, some paternalists think everyone prefers Disney.