How will the AI that monitors our in-game chats effect RP?

Razmirra · September 13

I am keeping an eye on this and yes, it does concern me to a degree and I do not want creativity stifled as a result, let alone people who don't even RP such as the people who do/say silly things in certain city locations.

Idelise · September 13

If that is true it is indeed concerning. Certain characters or RP themes will be impossible to be explored.
Plus, should cussing to friends in private messages cause a ban? :P

freespirit · September 13

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Are they really monitoring our private whispers, and using IA to do it?

There have been previous reports of this over the last few months.......

People getting banned for /w between friends that nobody else could possibly have seen, unfortunately due to the nature of these threads, ie discussing moderation/bans they tend not to be available to read when searching for them at a later date

Syldras · September 13

umagon wrote: »

People don’t have to use the latin alphabet, and it’s unlikely the filter system supports censoring more than few common languages’ character sets. Also, one can just resign uncensored words that are not commonly used to be “code” for the censored word it’s done all the time.

This sounds quite complicated for people who just want to write about what they have for dinner.

jaws343 · September 13

Pelanora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

TOS says,

" Content Moderation

To the extent that ZeniMax performs any content moderation of UGC to ensure its compatibility with these Terms of Service (including the Code of Conduct or any relevant EULA), such content moderation may be carried out via human review as well as through the use of AI-powered proactive and reactive moderation methods including without limitation, software that uses algorithmic decision making.

ZeniMax's proactive content moderation includes without limitation using tools to block and filter UGC that is illegal and/or incompatible with these Terms of Service.

Reactive content moderation methods include without limitation user reporting features which allow You to inform ZeniMax of the behavior or Content of other users that You have encountered which you believe is illegal and/or incompatible with these Terms of Service (including the Code of Conduct) and any such behaviour or Content can be reported to ZeniMax by contacting ZeniMax Customer Support at help.bethesda.net or help.elderscrollsonline.com. If You are in-Game, You can report an issue using an in-Game help feature where applicable. Where ZeniMax is required to do so by virtue of the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), ZeniMax shall advise You of remedial steps action taken against another user as a result of Your report including details of what steps ZeniMax has taken to investigate your report, if ZeniMax has removed Content that You have reported or if any other restrictions have been applied to the Content or the other user. "

This is an enormous red flag.

No it is not..

Zos, as a company that can be held liable for conversations that might happen through the use of their platform, have a responsibility to make sure that they can monitor illegal things being done in their game. Even if those things are done in private chats. If you are using their tools to do illegal things, they are legally put in a spot to intervene or face severe legal repurcussions if they do not.

'Illegal things.'

The whole game is about doing things illegal irl. Talking about the game would in that case be a bannable offence. They will need to be more sophisticated than key words.

I mean, yes. Just like any chat or social media service is potentially liable for the planning or conducting of actual illegal activity with their service Zos is also beholden to that. If a group of people use whispers or group chat to plan a real crime, and Zos did not do everything within their power to prevent their service from being used for that manner, then they could be held liable for allowing that conduct. An entire platform recently is under fire for exactly this in Europe.

zaria · September 13

tyran404_ESO wrote: »

The problem lies in two things. This just doesn't effect RP. Below are two instances I've already had brought forward.

One Instance was a Private unreported PM that compared the far grave bubbles to something else. If neither consenting party in this pm was hurt why the disciplinary action? It is also an M rated game.

Another instance: Player tells a maelstrom arena boss to **** off in spacial chat, no one is around cause its maelstrom arena. They got flagged by the same automod. We wouldn't want the npcs feelings to get hurt i guess?

Secondly if it is a Bot doing? A Bot cannot understand or comprehend context. Which especially effects roleplayers.

Lets do an example of a roleplay scene, it is a combat between heroes and cultists: "Player A watches their friends suffer grievous wounds, they charge the menacing cultists and yell. "**** you!" as they charge with their sword out to end the cultists."

The bot could flag it and issue a automod warning if the example 2 is evidence.

This the only thing they might monitor in personal chat is scams and real money deals.
But I assume they use the same rules here as in zone chat.

Pelanora · September 13

jaws343 wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Inari Telvanni wrote: »

TOS says,

" Content Moderation

To the extent that ZeniMax performs any content moderation of UGC to ensure its compatibility with these Terms of Service (including the Code of Conduct or any relevant EULA), such content moderation may be carried out via human review as well as through the use of AI-powered proactive and reactive moderation methods including without limitation, software that uses algorithmic decision making.

ZeniMax's proactive content moderation includes without limitation using tools to block and filter UGC that is illegal and/or incompatible with these Terms of Service.

Reactive content moderation methods include without limitation user reporting features which allow You to inform ZeniMax of the behavior or Content of other users that You have encountered which you believe is illegal and/or incompatible with these Terms of Service (including the Code of Conduct) and any such behaviour or Content can be reported to ZeniMax by contacting ZeniMax Customer Support at help.bethesda.net or help.elderscrollsonline.com. If You are in-Game, You can report an issue using an in-Game help feature where applicable. Where ZeniMax is required to do so by virtue of the Statutory Obligations (as defined in Section 1), ZeniMax shall advise You of remedial steps action taken against another user as a result of Your report including details of what steps ZeniMax has taken to investigate your report, if ZeniMax has removed Content that You have reported or if any other restrictions have been applied to the Content or the other user. "

This is an enormous red flag.

No it is not..

Zos, as a company that can be held liable for conversations that might happen through the use of their platform, have a responsibility to make sure that they can monitor illegal things being done in their game. Even if those things are done in private chats. If you are using their tools to do illegal things, they are legally put in a spot to intervene or face severe legal repurcussions if they do not.

'Illegal things.'

The whole game is about doing things illegal irl. Talking about the game would in that case be a bannable offence. They will need to be more sophisticated than key words.

I mean, yes. Just like any chat or social media service is potentially liable for the planning or conducting of actual illegal activity with their service Zos is also beholden to that. If a group of people use whispers or group chat to plan a real crime, and Zos did not do everything within their power to prevent their service from being used for that manner, then they could be held liable for allowing that conduct. An entire platform recently is under fire for exactly this in Europe.

and people use chat to plan killing a boss or other players in PVP and software can distinguish that from IRL chat how?

and if someone is buying a game licence and logging in here to plan IRL stuff rather than an encyrpted tool accessible on a phone- i mean really you think thats whats happening? because thats just silly

Ingenon · September 13

On PS/NA, several guilds use PSN voice chat instead of the ESO in game voice chat during trials. And I belong to a guild that sometimes uses PSN text chat instead of the ESO in game text chat.

On PC platforms, I have heard of guilds using Discord for voice chat during trials. And Discord has text chat.

Perhaps an alternate for your guild RP chat may help with your issue?

Juomuuri · September 13

Ingenon wrote: »

On PS/NA, several guilds use PSN voice chat instead of the ESO in game voice chat during trials. And I belong to a guild that sometimes uses PSN text chat instead of the ESO in game text chat.

On PC platforms, I have heard of guilds using Discord for voice chat during trials. And Discord has text chat.

Perhaps an alternate for your guild RP chat may help with your issue?

Roleplay in an MMO is unique because you are actively a part of the game world, using emotes etc and writing out your dialogue and describing stuff in the instant chat with other players, it's very time sensitive. It doesn't work with an outsourced chat, sadly.

Arunei · September 13

Ingenon wrote: »

On PS/NA, several guilds use PSN voice chat instead of the ESO in game voice chat during trials. And I belong to a guild that sometimes uses PSN text chat instead of the ESO in game text chat.

On PC platforms, I have heard of guilds using Discord for voice chat during trials. And Discord has text chat.

Perhaps an alternate for your guild RP chat may help with your issue?

We shouldn't have to take RP out of game though, and again, it's not just RP this affects. It's any time someone says a ""naughty word"" or something. You can't even joke around with friends without risking getting banned or something.

How about they just NOT use a bot to hand out punishment? There is absolutely no reason that non-reported things are getting people autobanned, at all. In what world is it a good idea to let a program that can't tell context decide if any given thing is "bad" or not?

zaria · September 13

Ingenon wrote: »

On PS/NA, several guilds use PSN voice chat instead of the ESO in game voice chat during trials. And I belong to a guild that sometimes uses PSN text chat instead of the ESO in game text chat.

On PC platforms, I have heard of guilds using Discord for voice chat during trials. And Discord has text chat.

Perhaps an alternate for your guild RP chat may help with your issue?

No voice chat on PC all used discord.
ESO chat is still used in pugs and more causal guild stuff, also to link loot other might want.
Here both the offering and the replies are more useful in game as linking and seeing that your collected.
For voice again discord, from all from Cyrodil, trials or just doing stuff.

ZOS_Kevin · September 13

Hi all, just wanted to chime in here. We’re looking into some of the questions in the thread and checking in with the team for feedback. Since it’s pretty late in the day on a Friday, we probably won’t have any feedback until earlier next week. But wanted to acknowledge that we’ve seen this and are investigating.

For now, anyone with ban issues, please make sure to put in an appeal and share your ticket number. Happy to pass those along.

LadyGP · September 13

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to chime in here. We’re looking into some of the questions in the thread and checking in with the team for feedback. Since it’s pretty late in the day on a Friday, we probably won’t have any feedback until earlier next week. But wanted to acknowledge that we’ve seen this and are investigating.

For now, anyone with ban issues, please make sure to put in an appeal and share your ticket number. Happy to pass those along.

Lag update when?

AltmerGF · September 13

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to chime in here. We’re looking into some of the questions in the thread and checking in with the team for feedback. Since it’s pretty late in the day on a Friday, we probably won’t have any feedback until earlier next week. But wanted to acknowledge that we’ve seen this and are investigating.

For now, anyone with ban issues, please make sure to put in an appeal and share your ticket number. Happy to pass those along.

Thank you for the response. If this is a new official moderation stance, I would highly recommend reconsidering it, because this is going to alienate a large portion of a subset of players that probably drop more money on cosmetic items than anyone else, lol

XimTheBard · September 13

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to chime in here. We’re looking into some of the questions in the thread and checking in with the team for feedback. Since it’s pretty late in the day on a Friday, we probably won’t have any feedback until earlier next week. But wanted to acknowledge that we’ve seen this and are investigating.

For now, anyone with ban issues, please make sure to put in an appeal and share your ticket number. Happy to pass those along.

Thank you for the response Kevin. We will await further information.

I can say that especially with myself, who is a very active member of the rp community. It brings concern over some guild rp events. Such as combat events where our characters fight against either existent or non-existent DM created enemies. It could flag our characters cursing at these enemies as toxic behavior, hate messaging, or whatever. So it brings a very big concern and I know a lot of people who will be stopping RP entirely until some further information is posted.

This isn't even taking into account "adult oriented" RP or RP that is overly gore involved. The former of which, is generally done in private anyway.

I am seeing reports varying from being flagged for personal messages between two individuals, to individuals swearing at npcs in Maelstrom arena.

So I am eager to see what further information provides.

tsaescishoeshiner · September 13

Arunei wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If you get an unreasonable automod ban, appeal it with a support ticket, and make a forum post with your ticket asking for help. A screenshot of what the specific phrase they say you're banned for could help.

If it starts to cost more staff time to correct these errors, the program might be adjusted, reduced, or sidelined.

So appeal, and encourage your friends to do the same.

(Sometimes, game news sites look at popular subreddit posts.)

The problem is, the screenshot going around is from an appeal apparently, and it says that the suspension is going to stay in place because it was correctly handed out. So like...obviously I don't know what the context for that appeal was but it worries me that people getting warned, suspended, or banned might stay as such even if everyone involved in any given chat was okay with it.

We really just need to not be Big Brother'd to death. People can report offensive language, so why take action against literally everything if 90% of it isn't being reported because it's either RP or just people bantering or joking around with each other?

Like CS is going to waste a lot more time reviewing appeals for people unjustly caught by a bot than they would reviewing reports made by actual people.

Exactly! That's why appealing it and keeping tickets open, and publicly posting to get ticket help, is important and can help everyone.

We'll see what they say next week, and how many appeals have to be made.

endorphinsplox · September 13

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If you get an unreasonable automod ban, appeal it with a support ticket, and make a forum post with your ticket asking for help. A screenshot of what the specific phrase they say you're banned for could help.

If it starts to cost more staff time to correct these errors, the program might be adjusted, reduced, or sidelined.

So appeal, and encourage your friends to do the same.

(Sometimes, game news sites look at popular subreddit posts.)

The problem is, the screenshot going around is from an appeal apparently, and it says that the suspension is going to stay in place because it was correctly handed out. So like...obviously I don't know what the context for that appeal was but it worries me that people getting warned, suspended, or banned might stay as such even if everyone involved in any given chat was okay with it.

We really just need to not be Big Brother'd to death. People can report offensive language, so why take action against literally everything if 90% of it isn't being reported because it's either RP or just people bantering or joking around with each other?

Like CS is going to waste a lot more time reviewing appeals for people unjustly caught by a bot than they would reviewing reports made by actual people.

Exactly! That's why appealing it and keeping tickets open, and publicly posting to get ticket help, is important and can help everyone.

We'll see what they say next week, and how many appeals have to be made.

Especially bad though that submitting a new ticket kicks you to the bottom of the queue, and its unclear if that also applies to updating a ticket. This Customer Support system has some serious flaws, and it feels like this community and this game have been put on the backburner by ZOS.

TaSheen · September 13

As long as you reply to a response you have received (even if that response is to "close" the ticket, you shouldn't be returned to the "back of the queue".

XimTheBard · September 13

TaSheen wrote: »

As long as you reply to a response you have received (even if that response is to "close" the ticket, you shouldn't be returned to the "back of the queue".

I was just going to say this but you beat me to it.

Pelanora · September 13

Zos shouldn't ban words or phrases in game, or ban those using them.

Because context is everything, and bots can't judge context, they shouldn't be used to judge language.

XimTheBard · September 13

Pelanora wrote: »

Zos shouldn't ban words or phrases in game, or ban those using them.

Because context is everything, and bots can't judge context, they shouldn't be used to judge language.

At the vary least the AI could be used to warn potential issues, but it shouldn't be used to determine bans for that exact reason.

Syldras · September 13

Pelanora wrote: »

Zos shouldn't ban words or phrases in game, or ban those using them.
Because context is everything, and bots can't judge context, they shouldn't be used to judge language.

They should only react on people flagging/reporting. And then, a human ZOS employee should check, including context. Everything else won't end well. In the end it won't even save them time; quite the opposite actually, if masses of service tickets are sent in for wrong bans.

Prophet_of_Malacath · September 13

I wonder how they measure financial blow back.

Because RPers (self-included) buy the expensive Housing and Crates, spending several times the price of the yearly update + subscription, just so we can build our RP worlds.

What good is Tel Galen?

A House like that is 8K Crowns (unfurnished) to 10K (furnished).

Pay $100 for 14K crowns, or $40 X 2 for 5.5K each ($80 for 11K crowns). Cheapest might be Unfurnished for $40 (5.5K Crowns) + $25 (3K Crowns) = $65 for 8.5K.

Why spend $65-$100 on a virtual Telvanni House if we'll be suspended for RPing as one?

Agonys Ascent (14K), Elinhir Arena (9.6K), Snowglobe (4.2K), Erstwhile Sanctuary (16.2K), Forgemasters (6.2K), Frostvault (5.5K), Hunters Glade (8K), Pariahs Pinnacle (16.2K), Potentates Retrest (16.2K), Stillwaters (7K), Tel Galen (10K), Varlaisvea Ayleid Ruins (15K), Hakvild (12K), Coldharbour (5.6K)... that's 145,700 crowns on a few houses, and even at $100 for 14K, that's over $1K real dollars.

Amount spent on Crown Crates? Motifs? Furnishing Packs?

I mean, I don't criticize ZOS for gameplay - some aspects might not suit me, but I love Bethesdas setting.
But why farm content or queue to Tank if we dare RP as one of the Undaunted (while we pursue those furnishings and motifs).

Like, if censors kill RP, I'm not spending cash to quietly punch the same PVE dungeon boss nor am I going to fall in love with Deathmatch. If RP gets us flagged, why invest at all in Housing or Fashion? A good chunk of RPers enthusiastically market new furnishings/homes/motifs to each other, but it becomes moot if (in one scenario) the guild leader who runs events for us gets suspended over a private DM.to his friend.

This is panic-inducing.

Synapsis123 · September 13

I've already received an official warning from this system because it took something I said in a 1 one 1 conversation with a friend out of context. If it happens again I risk getting banned. I tried to appeal it, but gave up because it requires you to jump through a ton of hoops.

I've stopped using the in game chat due to this system.

Jaimeh · September 13

This is beyond disturbing... hopefully we get more info from the devs soon.

Syldras · September 14

I'm wondering when this change took place? Can anybody estimate when it started?

Because I'm doing my usual Telvanni stuff for yours now in private chats and messages, and never got any warnings or bans so far. Makes me wonder if the way I'm doing it (topics can be dark/horrid, but I don't tend to swear and don't use slurs except for the occasional "n'wah" or "s'wit") is fine, or it's a recent change and I've just been lucky not to have crossed the line yet.

Ugrak · September 14

The transparency of in-game communication data and the use of AI to navigate within the data neither surprises nor concerns me. It has to be expected these days. Automated moderation actions however seem highly questionable. Especially those nobody requested. The issues around the quality of such decisions can of course be another discussion entirely on it's own.

If user generated content is going to be that strictly and arbitrarily policed, I'd much rather the game did not allow any UGC whatsoever. No names, no chat, just the bare gameplay. But then we're quickly moving away from the MMO concept.

On that note, an MMO account is a long time project, and the biggest question for players is perhaps whether they feel comfortable investing time and money into accounts that can be jeopardized at any moment for no sensible reason at all.

That question is presumably also relevant for ZOS from a pure business perspective, as this is literally a reversal of marketing.

Vaqual · September 14

This is insane. There is not a single party benefiting from this. If someone wishes to issue a report they can easily do that. This is not protecting anyone. Add the automated support messages on top and this is a straight up dystopia simulation.

IrisDupree · September 14

AI should be used for nothing in games where it is not backed up by humans checking the context. AI cannot read intent, it cannot read jokes, it cannot tell the difference in a curse word (which should not matter since we can turn on a filter.) said in RP or used to cause hurt in PVP or pve.

Thee_Cheshire_Cat · September 14

i left another game that was rated 'Teen', when i was banned for language used IN ROLE PLAY. i wasn't given any warnings or anything, just bam. On Christmas eve no less. i had been loyal to that game since it launched and was in it for a solid SEVENTEEN years of my life. That's the kind of RPer i am, that's the kind of player i am.

If this AI enforced thing is real and carries on and starts warnings and banning us role-players for role-playing, i'm GONE.

As many have said, this game world is about as dark and twisted as you can get. It's glorious. AND, it's supposed to be an M-rated game to boot! To have people getting banned for stuff role-played in this world is absolutely insane. And not in a GOOD way! Ol' Shaggy wouldn't even touch this foolishness.

You want people to play tea party and color our tongues with crayola, fine, do it in PUBLIC chats, maaaaybe party chats in DUNGEONS/raids.

But for the love of all things, stay the heck out of our private game homes that we have spent money on and HOURS on to enhance the world we PAY to role-play in!

i've been enjoying ESO since i came to it about two years ago or so.... But THIS news... this is absolute insanity and tweeting flipping of a bird, from ZOS to all dedicated role-players.