Time for templar to get the sorc treatment

gariondavey · August 13

Sun shield now scales with spell damage.
7k spell damage results in a comparable tooltip to hardened ward with 50k mag.

Time for more classes to build full damage sets but get to run around with an absurd 1 button defensive spell essentially making them immortal

Jsmalls · August 13

I don't disagree that Templars need something.

But... Scaling a damage shield on spell damage just won't be balanced.

I'm not saying Hardened Ward is in a balanced spot because it isn't. For those that choose to bolster their defenses and make stacking magicka and major/minor vitality together their priority its completely broken.

You can realistically achieve a 19k Ward with a 10k tooltip heal. And while I state that those that play this way are missing out on a lot of damage it can't be dismissed that this is possible (you'll likely see these setups with 3-4k spell damage).

But at the end of the day stacking Magicka/Stamina is an inefficient way to increase your damage where as Spell / Weapon damage is one of the optimal ways.

1096 Magicka (one piece bonus) > ~1424 Magicka after bonuses = 136 equivalent spell damage.

129 Spell damage (one piece bonus) > ~181 spell damage after bonuses.

So Magicka is about 30% less efficient stacking towards damage when compared to spell damage.

So yes Templars need something, no this isn't the way to do it.

The_Isatope8 · August 13

Plar needs more than a shield buff. Their damage is wonky, their group utility isn't great and they're the worst tanks in the game. I think one of the biggest issues with them is that they are not only outclassed but also outdated. Many of their passives need reworks, their ultimate's also need a lot of work.

At this point I'd settle for a beam nerf if it meant that Templar could have better damage up front and not just in execute.

Theist_VII · August 13

If anything, a shield that necessitates getting into melee range should be stronger than a shield that you can cast safely from afar but even after the capped 120% increase, assuming you can find anywhere with 6 players pixel stacked, the skill is horrible.

There is no scenario in PvP where either morphs are usable, and to make matters worse, there are several Scribing wards that are immediately better, protecting your entire group while buffing them with something as huge as Minor Courage.

Here’s the thing though, they know this.

All of the problems with this skill have been outlined in the thread “Sun Shield rework… when?”
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/639316/sun-shield-rework-when#latest

Even after a community manager stated they would forward our feedback, the skill has received nothing but a nerf in the form of a 6-enemy cap, and that’s assuming we aren’t counting the entire patch the skill had no animation as some sick joke.

freespirit · August 13

Three accounts, three Templar DD mains, whilst admitedly not as good as they were, I just roll with the changes and carry on with my fav class.

Solo or in a duo with a tanky companion I can solo most WB's even the newer ones.

Two manning four man dungeons jabs can still produce huge piles of bodies and I don't even notice the animation anymore!!

However I like my Sorc and my Warden too.

Earlier today, actually very early today, just after reset, I went to a portal for the extra seals, on my very first ever character, a sorc who basically crafts, builds houses and gives out vampire bites these days, she is not designed for fighting!

Ofc I immediately encountered a boss I needed for the achievement, absolutely bloody typical!! The boss was Kmol, wow that's a lot of fire, my little vampy friend was not doing well!

UNTIL I swapped in Hardened Ward, then even on my crafter the fight was a cakewalk, I do remember way back when Blazing Shields was a must have "make your Templar unkillable" skill, it would be nice to have that back! 🙂

Joy_Division · August 14

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Plar needs more than a shield buff. Their damage is wonky, their group utility isn't great and they're the worst tanks in the game. I think one of the biggest issues with them is that they are not only outclassed but also outdated. Many of their passives need reworks, their ultimate's also need a lot of work.

At this point I'd settle for a beam nerf if it meant that Templar could have better damage up front and not just in execute.

I wish people would stop saying this.

Because we know what ZOS will do. Nerf beam and then give a bunch of awkward/unneeded/redundant/lackluster buff to bad skills (i.e., make them into Necromancers) and then we're stuck with an even worse class for one and a half years until ZOS finally gets around to reexamining Templars.

No.

Attempt to make the non-beam aspects of the Templar halfway decent and *then* and only when the 'plar dares approaches the elite lofty rarefied air exclusively reserved for nightblades and sorcerers in a PvP environment, we'll look at doing something with beam.

BananaBender · August 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Plar needs more than a shield buff. Their damage is wonky, their group utility isn't great and they're the worst tanks in the game. I think one of the biggest issues with them is that they are not only outclassed but also outdated. Many of their passives need reworks, their ultimate's also need a lot of work.

At this point I'd settle for a beam nerf if it meant that Templar could have better damage up front and not just in execute.

I wish people would stop saying this.

Because we know what ZOS will do. Nerf beam and then give a bunch of awkward/unneeded/redundant/lackluster buff to bad skills (i.e., make them into Necromancers) and then we're stuck with an even worse class for one and a half years until ZOS finally gets around to reexamining Templars.

No.

Attempt to make the non-beam aspects of the Templar halfway decent and *then* and only when the 'plar dares approaches the elite lofty rarefied air exclusively reserved for nightblades and sorcerers in a PvP environment, we'll look at doing something with beam.

I agree with this approach much more than some of the others I've seen on this subject.
Right now in PvE templar is a good DD class that you want to bring just because the execute phase is better than on any other class.

Right now templar isn't treated as a general DPS class, but an execute one. And right now Templar is pretty much the only option for that, since NB is what it is right now. So when you want to minimize the time spent in execute, you bring a templar. So there is a niche for templar right now.
Just shifting the power away from the beam into jabs and backlash would move it away from being an execute class into competing more with the other classes like arcanist. And templar is never coming out on top in that situation. So even if they kept the overall damage the same, but shifted to be more overall damage instead of just execute damage, would likely just hurt templar's viability.

I'm sure there is a way of making templar generally more viable than it is right now so they are not stuck in the beam jail, but a quick numbers fix isn't it. So starting off by buffing the rest of the kit would be very welcome, and then seeing if it over performs and maybe adjust the beam afterwards.

tincanman · August 14

Joy_Division wrote: »

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

Plar needs more than a shield buff. Their damage is wonky, their group utility isn't great and they're the worst tanks in the game. I think one of the biggest issues with them is that they are not only outclassed but also outdated. Many of their passives need reworks, their ultimate's also need a lot of work.

At this point I'd settle for a beam nerf if it meant that Templar could have better damage up front and not just in execute.

I wish people would stop saying this.

Because we know what ZOS will do. Nerf beam and then give a bunch of awkward/unneeded/redundant/lackluster buff to bad skills (i.e., make them into Necromancers) and then we're stuck with an even worse class for one and a half years until ZOS finally gets around to reexamining Templars.

No.

Attempt to make the non-beam aspects of the Templar halfway decent and *then* and only when the 'plar dares approaches the elite lofty rarefied air exclusively reserved for nightblades and sorcerers in a PvP environment, we'll look at doing something with beam.

Quoted for more visibility. And, yes.

StaticWave · August 15

Jsmalls wrote: »

I don't disagree that Templars need something.

But... Scaling a damage shield on spell damage just won't be balanced.

I'm not saying Hardened Ward is in a balanced spot because it isn't. For those that choose to bolster their defenses and make stacking magicka and major/minor vitality together their priority its completely broken.

You can realistically achieve a 19k Ward with a 10k tooltip heal. And while I state that those that play this way are missing out on a lot of damage it can't be dismissed that this is possible (you'll likely see these setups with 3-4k spell damage).

But at the end of the day stacking Magicka/Stamina is an inefficient way to increase your damage where as Spell / Weapon damage is one of the optimal ways.

1096 Magicka (one piece bonus) > ~1424 Magicka after bonuses = 136 equivalent spell damage.

129 Spell damage (one piece bonus) > ~181 spell damage after bonuses.

So Magicka is about 30% less efficient stacking towards damage when compared to spell damage.

So yes Templars need something, no this isn't the way to do it.

I'd love for shield to scale with spell damage, but with a lower coefficient than stacking max HP/max mag. So for example a 50k max mag build with 5k spell damage should have the same shield size as a 25k max mag build and 7k spell damage. Numbers can be adjusted, but the general idea is that the lower mag pool will prevent them from spamming Ward but still allow Ward to be used in spell damage builds.

Theist_VII · August 16

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I don't disagree that Templars need something.

But... Scaling a damage shield on spell damage just won't be balanced.

I'm not saying Hardened Ward is in a balanced spot because it isn't. For those that choose to bolster their defenses and make stacking magicka and major/minor vitality together their priority its completely broken.

You can realistically achieve a 19k Ward with a 10k tooltip heal. And while I state that those that play this way are missing out on a lot of damage it can't be dismissed that this is possible (you'll likely see these setups with 3-4k spell damage).

But at the end of the day stacking Magicka/Stamina is an inefficient way to increase your damage where as Spell / Weapon damage is one of the optimal ways.

1096 Magicka (one piece bonus) > ~1424 Magicka after bonuses = 136 equivalent spell damage.

129 Spell damage (one piece bonus) > ~181 spell damage after bonuses.

So Magicka is about 30% less efficient stacking towards damage when compared to spell damage.

So yes Templars need something, no this isn't the way to do it.

I'd love for shield to scale with spell damage, but with a lower coefficient than stacking max HP/max mag. So for example a 50k max mag build with 5k spell damage should have the same shield size as a 25k max mag build and 7k spell damage. Numbers can be adjusted, but the general idea is that the lower mag pool will prevent them from spamming Ward but still allow Ward to be used in spell damage builds.

At least until ZOS handles healing scaling off of damage, I see no reason as to why they couldn’t do this simple change.

Of course it wouldn’t be enough though, the cost is too high for a basic ward that does laughable damage on impact. The reason Conjured Ward is strong, has everything to do with the fact that it’s doubling down on defense, you’re getting a decent burst heal on an already large shield. For Radiant Ward and Blazing Shield to be comparable, both Sun Shields would need to do as much damage as that heal, while creating as big of a shield. Or have it start smaller but having the capability to do more than Conjured if they want to keep the niché mechanic.

We’re putting ourselves in danger at arms reach of multiple enemies for a weaker shield. There’s a clear design flaw that needs to be addressed.

xylena_lazarow · August 16

Jsmalls wrote: »

So Magicka is about 30% less efficient stacking towards damage when compared to spell damage.

Do it again accounting for all the passive buffs. Plars have 10% extra spell damage, but meta MagSorcs have something like 30% extra max mag from passives. Can't evaluate stats in a vacuum, that's how we end up with "spreadsheet balancing" giving us stuff that looks fine on paper but plays awful, like Tarnished Nightmare.

It's really funny though how this entire thread thought OP was seriously suggesting "spell damage Sun Shield" and not just making a satirical point of how ridiculous Hardened Ward is (and how much Templar gets ignored).

Theist_VII · August 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's really funny though how this entire thread thought OP was seriously suggesting "spell damage Sun Shield" and not just making a satirical point of how ridiculous Hardened Ward is (and how much Templar gets ignored).

It’s twice as funny that even if the shield scaled with spell damage, it would still suck.

When you full send health with the skill, it doesn’t have a high enough value to be useful, so using the same co-efficient except changing the value scaling it, you’d be left in the same situation.

gariondavey · August 17

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's really funny though how this entire thread thought OP was seriously suggesting "spell damage Sun Shield" and not just making a satirical point of how ridiculous Hardened Ward is (and how much Templar gets ignored).

It’s twice as funny that even if the shield scaled with spell damage, it would still suck.

When you full send health with the skill, it doesn’t have a high enough value to be useful, so using the same co-efficient except changing the value scaling it, you’d be left in the same situation.

Xylena gets the thread. If sun shield gave the same tooltip shield with 7k spell damage as hardened ward does with 50k mag, it would not suck lol.

Theist_VII · August 17

gariondavey wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's really funny though how this entire thread thought OP was seriously suggesting "spell damage Sun Shield" and not just making a satirical point of how ridiculous Hardened Ward is (and how much Templar gets ignored).

It’s twice as funny that even if the shield scaled with spell damage, it would still suck.

When you full send health with the skill, it doesn’t have a high enough value to be useful, so using the same co-efficient except changing the value scaling it, you’d be left in the same situation.

Xylena gets the thread. If sun shield gave the same tooltip shield with 7k spell damage as hardened ward does with 50k mag, it would not suck lol.

Here’s the thing, it would though.

The ONLY reasons why Hardened Ward is as strong as it is, is completely dependent on the fact that the shield is doubling down on defensive benefits, while scaling off of a stat that is through the roof because of the passives that make up the class.

You get a ward and a heal that both scale off of the same things. One skill to cover your entire defense.

Templar is still riddled with skills that push outward in multiple directions and at values that are insulting. To hammer this home, last patch we got an Immobilize on a Damage Dealer skill.

The damage of Sun Shield would need to off-set the heal from Conjured Ward in order to be comparable, but that will never be the case as Templar has nowhere near the capability of building damage at the same rate a Sorcerer can stack Max Magicka.

xylena_lazarow · August 17

Theist_VII wrote: »

The damage of Sun Shield would need to off-set the heal from Conjured Ward in order to be comparable, but that will never be the case as Templar has nowhere near the capability of building damage at the same rate a Sorcerer can stack Max Magicka.

Sorc didn't have it either until they added that extra 10% max mag passive, which keeps getting lost in the Ward debates, it restored their ability to efficiently stack mag like old school MagSorcs, who never needed a heal on Ward to be considered op and nerfed by ZOS. Buffed max mag alone is enough to restore Ward, the burst heal is egregious. If we're gonna accept Ward as the new standard, then yeah some sort of buffed scaling spell damage Sun Shield would be appropriate.

West93 · August 18

Templar needs power of light / purifying to do respectable damage again in pvp. Simple rework, make it do full damage after 6 seconds without needing to build up damage, however final tick can now be dodged/blocked. Good burst ability with counter play, noting OP or unbalanced. If I can hit for 10k+ dawnbreaker potl should hit close numbers as well not 2x less.

TechMaybeHic · August 18

Maybe it's from being a plar main from launch and stuck in old ways; but I find a lot of current templar suggestions often self defeating and making things worse. Not the OP really; as I think it's relevant to point out that the current top classes really made no sacrifices for their current level. Tenplars are somehow so set to trade beam or mobility to embrace the old "templar house" many of us fought to escape.

It's ridiculous as whenever templars do any damage, there is a massive outcry about the healer class having that damage yet they finally made sorc "competitive" by giving them heals and shields that make tanky melee classes blush. I'm just tired of it

Theist_VII · August 18

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Maybe it's from being a plar main from launch and stuck in old ways; but I find a lot of current templar suggestions often self defeating and making things worse. Not the OP really; as I think it's relevant to point out that the current top classes really made no sacrifices for their current level. Tenplars are somehow so set to trade beam or mobility to embrace the old "templar house" many of us fought to escape.

It's ridiculous as whenever templars do any damage, there is a massive outcry about the healer class having that damage yet they finally made sorc "competitive" by giving them heals and shields that make tanky melee classes blush. I'm just tired of it

If you’re a Plar from launch you would remember that Blazing Shield and Total Dark were on every Magicka Templar build.

Since then, they have stripped Total Dark as a skill and replaced it with yet another generic (rather strong) HoT and that was after stomping Blazing Shield, or rather, Sun Shield entirely, into the dust because of Battle Spirit.

Wouldn’t you be inclined to want those things back if you were nostalgic?

That’s the main reason why I want Sun Shield to be decent again, I remember when it was, and all I want from ZOS is for it to be worth the bar spot again. I don’t want to have to switch to an Arcanist for a better version of it, and it’s entirely insulting that they even put one on that class to begin with.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

The damage of Sun Shield would need to off-set the heal from Conjured Ward in order to be comparable, but that will never be the case as Templar has nowhere near the capability of building damage at the same rate a Sorcerer can stack Max Magicka.

Sorc didn't have it either until they added that extra 10% max mag passive, which keeps getting lost in the Ward debates, it restored their ability to efficiently stack mag like old school MagSorcs, who never needed a heal on Ward to be considered op and nerfed by ZOS. Buffed max mag alone is enough to restore Ward, the burst heal is egregious. If we're gonna accept Ward as the new standard, then yeah some sort of buffed scaling spell damage Sun Shield would be appropriate.

The extra max mag was never lost in that debate, my solution to it though was lost/completely ignored in that debate.

One of the main adjustments for sorc that I put forward long before ward was even changed, was to replace the max stats on bound armor (and morphs) with major prophecy/savagery.

That change removes 8% max mag on its own (basically almost reverting the buff to expert summoner to only be a +2% buff instead of +10% overall change), but not only that it has the potential to remove another 7% max mag (5% from inner light, 2% from MG passives) because inner light is no longer stat dense/efficient enough to be worth slotting outside of deliberately building for max ward only since BA now provides savagery/prophecy so inner light doubles up on that named buff.

The upside of this change was to gain some flexibility in bar space (by removing the need for inner light) and morph choices for bound armor morphs (since all sorcs could benefit from/use either morph of BA effectively and could choose the morph to suit their role instead of the one that suits their max resource) as well as having better inherent uptime on crit surge procs thanks to in class major prophecy/savagery.

Turtle_Bot · August 18

When it comes to damage scaling sun shield, it really would be the same issue that ward currently is, just worse. Plars can reach 9k+ spell damage without giving up too much, so having sun shield scaling off damage like ward scales off mag, would be the equivalent of if sorc could reach 90k max mag (without needing emp, vamp ult, etc).

As for being an offensive/defensive split ability, that's not as weak as it seems. Arctic is a very good ability because it combines both aspects. Doubling down is definitely a big issue too (exampled by polar), but doing both offense and defense at the same time causes its own problems too if made too strong.

I'd rather to fix sunshield, ZOS leans into plars class theme of cleanses, support, blinding light, etc.

Sun Shield: Renamed to Solar Rays
Radius: 5 meters 7 meters

Surround yourself with restorative solar rays, gaining a damage shield that absorbs up to 4800 damage for 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your max health.
When the shield is activated you heal for 871 health and increase the shields strength by 25% for each nearby enemy.
Radiant Ward: Renamed to Purifying Rays
Radius: 5 meters 7 meters
- Surround yourself with purifying solar rays, gaining a damage shield that absorbs up to 4800 damage for 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your max health. While the shield is active, you cleanse 1 negative effect on you every 1 second.
  When the shield is activated you heal for 871 health, cleanse 1 negative effect and increase the shields strength by 33% for each nearby enemy.
  Reworked this morph to lean into its defensive nature of standing your ground, by allowing the templar to easily and passively remove the pressure that inevitably builds up when standing ones ground. Reduced the base heal by 50%, but the heal now also scales with the number of nearby enemies just like the shield and provides a burst cleanse when surrounded by multiple enemies.
  Note:
  heal does not scale with stats, only percent modifiers and number of nearby enemies.
Blazing Shield: Renamed to Blinding Rays
Radius: 5 meters 7 meters
- Surround yourself with intense solar rays, dealing 1306 Magic Damage to nearby enemies applying the Burning status effect and inflicting the Blinding Rays debuff on enemies hit for 10 seconds. Each enemy hit increases the damage done by 25%. Enemies affected by Blinding Rays will take 8% more damage from your Aedric Spear abilities will have their first targeted direct attack on you miss.
  Reworked this morph to lean into templars Blinding/destructive light theme for their Aedric spear skills. Reduced the base damage by 25%, but the damage scaling for each enemy hit is applied on cast and not when the shield ends. Removed the damage shield from this morph, but this morph now causes enemies hit to miss their next targeted direct attack on you and take an additional 8% from your Aedric Spear abilities.

Purifying Ward morph focuses on templars cleanses and healing capabilities to help them stand their ground easier. Meanwhile Blinding Rays morph turns the ability into an AoE ability that aims to turn the tides of battle by becoming more deadly the more outnumbered the templar becomes. The 8% increased damage taken by aedric spear abilities aims to better help the templar to defend its house while not making the already overly pushed beam even stronger.
Also increased the radius of this ability to match the new melee attack range.

Theist_VII · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

When it comes to damage scaling sun shield, it really would be the same issue that ward currently is, just worse. Plars can reach 9k+ spell damage without giving up too much, so having sun shield scaling off damage like ward scales off mag, would be the equivalent of if sorc could reach 90k max mag (without needing emp, vamp ult, etc).

As for being an offensive/defensive split ability, that's not as weak as it seems. Arctic is a very good ability because it combines both aspects. Doubling down is definitely a big issue too (exampled by polar), but doing both offense and defense at the same time causes its own problems too if made too strong.

I'd rather to fix sunshield, ZOS leans into plars class theme of cleanses, support, blinding light, etc.
Sun Shield: Renamed to Solar Rays
Radius: 5 meters 7 meters
Surround yourself with restorative solar rays, gaining a damage shield that absorbs up to 4800 damage for 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your max health.
When the shield is activated you heal for 871 health and increase the shields strength by 25% for each nearby enemy.

Radiant Ward: Renamed to Purifying Rays
Radius: 5 meters 7 meters
Surround yourself with purifying solar rays, gaining a damage shield that absorbs up to 4800 damage for 6 seconds. This portion of the ability scales off your max health. While the shield is active, you cleanse 1 negative effect on you every 1 second.
When the shield is activated you heal for 871 health, cleanse 1 negative effect and increase the shields strength by 33% for each nearby enemy.
Reworked this morph to lean into its defensive nature of standing your ground, by allowing the templar to easily and passively remove the pressure that inevitably builds up when standing ones ground. Reduced the base heal by 50%, but the heal now also scales with the number of nearby enemies just like the shield and provides a burst cleanse when surrounded by multiple enemies.
Note:
heal does not scale with stats, only percent modifiers and number of nearby enemies.

Blazing Shield: Renamed to Blinding Rays
Radius: 5 meters 7 meters
Surround yourself with intense solar rays, dealing 1306 Magic Damage to nearby enemies applying the Burning status effect and inflicting the Blinding Rays debuff on enemies hit for 10 seconds. Each enemy hit increases the damage done by 25%. Enemies affected by Blinding Rays will take 8% more damage from your Aedric Spear abilities will have their first targeted direct attack on you miss.
Reworked this morph to lean into templars Blinding/destructive light theme for their Aedric spear skills. Reduced the base damage by 25%, but the damage scaling for each enemy hit is applied on cast and not when the shield ends. Removed the damage shield from this morph, but this morph now causes enemies hit to miss their next targeted direct attack on you and take an additional 8% from your Aedric Spear abilities.

Purifying Ward morph focuses on templars cleanses and healing capabilities to help them stand their ground easier. Meanwhile Blinding Rays morph turns the ability into an AoE ability that aims to turn the tides of battle by becoming more deadly the more outnumbered the templar becomes. The 8% increased damage taken by aedric spear abilities aims to better help the templar to defend its house while not making the already overly pushed beam even stronger.
Also increased the radius of this ability to match the new melee attack range.

What are you talking about Turtle? 😂

Easily reaching 9,000 weapon/spell damage? You’re talking a complete stat dump into damage with a 500 Balorgh and weapon damage glyph, using Coral Riptide at 33% stamina and Clever Alchemist with an active potion, all while hitting a trial dummy for trial courage and all the other buffs, oh and did I mention Nirnhoned swords or greatsword?

That’s not, “without giving up too much”… that’s giving up everything. Just like having to build into Health. Playing a Templar is to throw on all damage stat sets, and pray your opponent lets you hit them enough times with Jabs to at least get 75% of the value of Power of the Light all while hoping you can sustain the cost.

It’s a joke.

While you say that 9,000 weapon/spell damage would be like 90,000 Magicka, you couldn’t be further from the truth given how horribly Sun Shield scales. Compare it to Defensive Posture’s shield value. I’ll tell you, 40,000 health Radiant Ward looks a LOT different than a 40,000 magicka Hardened Ward. For a quick snapshot, look at Honor of the Dead with 9,000 w/s damage and then look at a 40,000 magicka Hardened Ward and compare the values.

Here’s the ringer though, when you build into Magicka you get a bigger shield, you’re building into your primary sustain resource, and that Magicka adds to your damage. When you build into Health you have far less of your primary resource, you get no damage, and all for a smaller shield.

While I like your nod to Blinding Flashes, I just don’t see that kind of a change happening. At best ZOS will do the bare minimum and just make the skill provide a Major Buff or Debuff to players in melee range.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn’t care in the slightest about the skill, or making Templar a class that feels engaging or mechanical to play, and it’s really as simple as that.

Edit; Also, Artic Wind was good because it stunned enemies while healing you. Once again, a double defensive, especially when cast at low health.

Galeriano2 · August 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

The damage of Sun Shield would need to off-set the heal from Conjured Ward in order to be comparable, but that will never be the case as Templar has nowhere near the capability of building damage at the same rate a Sorcerer can stack Max Magicka.

Sorc didn't have it either until they added that extra 10% max mag passive, which keeps getting lost in the Ward debates, it restored their ability to efficiently stack mag like old school MagSorcs, who never needed a heal on Ward to be considered op and nerfed by ZOS. Buffed max mag alone is enough to restore Ward, the burst heal is egregious. If we're gonna accept Ward as the new standard, then yeah some sort of buffed scaling spell damage Sun Shield would be appropriate.

Sorc could stack max magicka before this passive was added. Stacking max mag was a meta on a sorc for big part of the game existance. It's not like this +10% max mag opened some new options for the class. On its own this +10% max mag really isn't something gamechanging. We're talking like 5k max mag at best when You already have like 65k max mag without the passive. In more realistic setups it will be additional 3-4k max mag. Shield tooltip really won't budge a lot from this alone.

The real change happened thanks to heal on hardened ward because it allowed sorcs to drop vigor and change it for bound aegis plus optionally drop psijic ulti and change it for meteor or other ultimate resulting with more compressed and stat dense toolkit, something that is always needed for magsorc's outdated toolkit to become competitive with other class's kits.

Buffed max mag alone is not enough to restore ward. Without that heal sorcs would still had to slot vigor and drop bound aegis which would cause them to only gain like 3-4k more max mag while also loosing 8% max HP from old version of the passive so shield itself would be basically as unreliable as it was before the buff, possibly even worse considering all the changes that happened to the game in the meantime.

Oldchool sorcs had lot of thjngs compensating for weaknesses in their kit that were gradually removed from them causing the most noticable issue that class was been struggling with for a couple of years which was lack of bar space.

xylena_lazarow · August 18

Galeriano2 wrote: »

The real change happened thanks to heal on hardened ward because it allowed sorcs to drop vigor and change it for bound aegis plus optionally drop psijic ulti and change it for meteor or other ultimate resulting with more compressed and stat dense toolkit

So you do understand. Hooray!

Now give Plars the same treatment. Their bars are a mess, their buffs are all over the place, their defensive rotation is 4-5 skills. OP's suggested Sun Shield buff would give Plars a nice clean 1 button defensive kit just like MagSorc.

Galeriano2 · August 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

The real change happened thanks to heal on hardened ward because it allowed sorcs to drop vigor and change it for bound aegis plus optionally drop psijic ulti and change it for meteor or other ultimate resulting with more compressed and stat dense toolkit

So you do understand. Hooray!

Now give Plars the same treatment. Their bars are a mess, their buffs are all over the place, their defensive rotation is 4-5 skills. OP's suggested Sun Shield buff would give Plars a nice clean 1 button defensive kit just like MagSorc.

Sadly You don't understand if You're claiming that "Buffed max mag alone is enough to restore Ward".

Further discussion seems pointless because of that. As for the "new standards" it's arcanist who have set them not sorc.

katorga · August 18

I agree. The changes to sorc brought it up to par with DK, NB, Warden.

Templar needs to be brought up to par.

I have no clue where Arcanist sits. Don't play mine enough to have a feel.

Necro....dunno if its even possible to fix after all the nerfs.

fwiw, I don't use ward in CP any more, scribing made it unnecessary.

TechMaybeHic · August 18

Theist_VII wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Maybe it's from being a plar main from launch and stuck in old ways; but I find a lot of current templar suggestions often self defeating and making things worse. Not the OP really; as I think it's relevant to point out that the current top classes really made no sacrifices for their current level. Tenplars are somehow so set to trade beam or mobility to embrace the old "templar house" many of us fought to escape.

It's ridiculous as whenever templars do any damage, there is a massive outcry about the healer class having that damage yet they finally made sorc "competitive" by giving them heals and shields that make tanky melee classes blush. I'm just tired of it

If you’re a Plar from launch you would remember that Blazing Shield and Total Dark were on every Magicka Templar build.

Since then, they have stripped Total Dark as a skill and replaced it with yet another generic (rather strong) HoT and that was after stomping Blazing Shield, or rather, Sun Shield entirely, into the dust because of Battle Spirit.

Wouldn’t you be inclined to want those things back if you were nostalgic?

That’s the main reason why I want Sun Shield to be decent again, I remember when it was, and all I want from ZOS is for it to be worth the bar spot again. I don’t want to have to switch to an Arcanist for a better version of it, and it’s entirely insulting that they even put one on that class to begin with.

I am fine with getting sunshield buffed, or really anything that helps Templar PvE tanks and give options, or give templars access to burst. What I am not ol with is sacrificing any more mobility from what is there, ever; nor execute until I at least see the burst is on par with sorc, nb, and warden

xylena_lazarow · August 18

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sadly You don't understand if You're claiming that "Buffed max mag alone is enough to restore Ward"

It was enough for the 2014-2016 MagSorcs that were S tier without a heal on Ward.

xylena_lazarow · August 18

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Plars can reach 9k+ spell damage without giving up too much... One of the main adjustments for sorc that I put forward long before ward was even changed, was to replace the max stats on bound armor (and morphs) with major prophecy/savagery.

Not even close regarding Plar, please actually play the class. I've long been with you though on the Major Sav thing, I even remember us in the same threads years ago fighting together for ZOS to help Sorc out with that.

SkaraMinoc · August 18

I took an 18k beam tick the other day. Maybe it's time for Sorc to get the Templar treatment and buff Endless Fury?

Galeriano2 · August 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sadly You don't understand if You're claiming that "Buffed max mag alone is enough to restore Ward"

It was enough for the 2014-2016 MagSorcs that were S tier without a heal on Ward.

It wasn't though. Back then sorc needed to use 2-3 shields to stay alive and one of them was healing ward which ironically was a shield+heal ability that sorc had the best use of because he could cover it with other shields until it popped with burst heal. Shields also were stronger than currently because they lasted for 2-3 times longer, had crit immunity and no capped values yet hardened alone was nowhere near to keep sorc alive. Sorc had space to slot that many shields because his kit was also way more versatile and compressed thanks to things like stun on frag, unlimited projectile absorption on bolt of lighting, 3rd bar from overload, less penalizing bolt escape debuff etc. Current magsorc is a shell of its former self.

xylena_lazarow · August 18

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Back then sorc needed to use 2-3 shields to stay alive

That's called "balance" and MagSorc was still S tier. This is not a "one button" game and never has been.