Night Capping is Making PvP Pointless - Please do Something ZOS

darvaria

SO you can't blame EP for day capping. When the 2 other factions CHOOSE to PV Door the other campaigns.

TechMaybeHic

darvaria wrote: »

SO you can't blame EP for day capping. When the 2 other factions CHOOSE to PV Door the other campaigns.

More like blaming ZOS for having a system that attracts that in any campaign

Holycannoli

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Aurielle

Holycannoli wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Maybe play those other games, then? As someone living in North America who often has no choice BUT to play during the hours you cite as being off limits (I’m a shift worker), it would suck to have my efforts “nerfed” just because there are people asleep in my time zone. In fact, it would discourage me from playing altogether and I’d end up playing something else, where my efforts are not invalidated just because some people think no one should be allowed to have any impact while they’re asleep.

Also, this idea that it’s just “PVD” is something I’d like to contest. Yes, there are times when it’s three bars versus one apiece for AD and DC, but there has also been many a time when I’ve played during Asian prime time and I’ve had plenty good fights with AD and DC. You’re all “sleeping” when this supposed PVD actually goes on, so you don’t witness the map yourself, but actually try playing during those times and you’d realize it’s not necessarily what you think it is. It’s not like Blackreach or Ravenwatch — definitely not to the same extent.

I frankly think it’s quite unfair to insult Oceania in this way, claiming that they’re just there to PVD. I’ve joined a number of Coo_PnT’s pugs and had lots of fun, plenty of drawn out battles where it didn’t look like we’d win. PVD is not fun to me, so I wouldn’t be joining those pugs if they were just PVD.

Joy_Division

Aurielle wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Maybe play those other games, then? As someone living in North America who often has no choice BUT to play during the hours you cite as being off limits (I’m a shift worker), it would suck to have my efforts “nerfed” just because there are people asleep in my time zone. In fact, it would discourage me from playing altogether and I’d end up playing something else, where my efforts are not invalidated just because some people think no one should be allowed to have any impact while they’re asleep.

Also, this idea that it’s just “PVD” is something I’d like to contest. Yes, there are times when it’s three bars versus one apiece for AD and DC, but there has also been many a time when I’ve played during Asian prime time and I’ve had plenty good fights with AD and DC. You’re all “sleeping” when this supposed PVD actually goes on, so you don’t witness the map yourself, but actually try playing during those times and you’d realize it’s not necessarily what you think it is. It’s not like Blackreach or Ravenwatch — definitely not to the same extent.

I frankly think it’s quite unfair to insult Oceania in this way, claiming that they’re just there to PVD. I’ve joined a number of Coo_PnT’s pugs and had lots of fun, plenty of drawn out battles where it didn’t look like we’d win. PVD is not fun to me, so I wouldn’t be joining those pugs if they were just PVD.

Do you think it is fair that off hour players have relatively far more impact than prime time players?

The same number of points are awarded regardless of the number of players, How is that remotely fair? If there are 100 points awarded and a 100 players on one alliance, that means their contributions come down to 1 point each. If there are 10 players on one alliance, that means their contributions amount to 10 points each, You want to talk about efforts being "nerfed," join the prime time crew where your individual contribution is a mere pittance. The more players that are participating, the more points should be up for grabs.

Proportionality should be based on the idea that however many players on each alliance, that's how many points the other alliances cant win from taking its objectives. So, basically if there are zero AD and zero DC playing, then there are no points EP can win by PvDooring an empty map. EP didn;t PvP vs anything so they don;t get alliance points. End of story, end of "nightcapping."

Soraka

Kamchuk wrote: »

I would like to provide a slightly different perspective. I usually log on in the mornings (EDT) to collect my daily rewards. I will check the score in PC NA GH and note that EP (my one and only faction since I have only one toon), has painted the map red. I don’t participate in the their conquest because at this point it is worthless. However, I also check the population of each faction. It is almost always: DC – 1 bar, EP – 2 bars, AD – 1 bar. After a few hours, EP will get up to 3 bars but one of the other factions will grow to 2 bars. Now since ZOS has lowered the POP caps, I am guessing, (and correct me if I’m wrong), that the CAP is 60 players per faction. If that is true then we are talking about 1 bar = 0-15 players, 2 bars = 16-30 players, 3 bars = 31-45 players and POP lock = 46-60 players. So, in the mornings EDT, EP is running the map with at most 30 players. Where is everyone else? In all of Oceania, there are 30 EP and less than 15 players representing each of the other factions playing ESO PVP? Why? Why are there at most 60 players total doing PC NA GH? When you guys talk about some EP players moving to AD or DC, are you saying that 10 players should migrate to either DC or AD?

Now I almost always log on in the afternoon EDT because at that time DC and AD have already formed team Green in order to try to compensate for the morning “nightcap”, and probably vent their frustrations against EP. Rightfully so. They SHOULD Green Team EP. We are in first place with 7K points buffer. And as a result, it is the best time for some really amazing fights at Arrius where EP has turtled. But the problem remains that in the Morning EDT, there are very few people playing and at this point in time, 30 people are painting the map red. 30 people who want to play ESO PVP together. How do we fix that?

ZOS must have a return on investment (ROI) to make any changes to PVP. They will not do it for so small of a PVP population.

This is also my experience. Log on in morning drink coffee and say hi, nothing to do because it's all capped. Midday it's reversed and we get gated a lot, not much to do when gated. Evening time more balanced fighting to defend against both ad and dc.

Nothing malicious or planned from what I've seen. And equally boring (to me) to have everything capped or nothing at all.

Aurielle

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Maybe play those other games, then? As someone living in North America who often has no choice BUT to play during the hours you cite as being off limits (I’m a shift worker), it would suck to have my efforts “nerfed” just because there are people asleep in my time zone. In fact, it would discourage me from playing altogether and I’d end up playing something else, where my efforts are not invalidated just because some people think no one should be allowed to have any impact while they’re asleep.

Also, this idea that it’s just “PVD” is something I’d like to contest. Yes, there are times when it’s three bars versus one apiece for AD and DC, but there has also been many a time when I’ve played during Asian prime time and I’ve had plenty good fights with AD and DC. You’re all “sleeping” when this supposed PVD actually goes on, so you don’t witness the map yourself, but actually try playing during those times and you’d realize it’s not necessarily what you think it is. It’s not like Blackreach or Ravenwatch — definitely not to the same extent.

I frankly think it’s quite unfair to insult Oceania in this way, claiming that they’re just there to PVD. I’ve joined a number of Coo_PnT’s pugs and had lots of fun, plenty of drawn out battles where it didn’t look like we’d win. PVD is not fun to me, so I wouldn’t be joining those pugs if they were just PVD.

Do you think it is fair that off hour players have relatively far more impact than prime time players?

The same number of points are awarded regardless of the number of players, How is that remotely fair? If there are 100 points awarded and a 100 players on one alliance, that means their contributions come down to 1 point each. If there are 10 players on one alliance, that means their contributions amount to 10 points each, You want to talk about efforts being "nerfed," join the prime time crew where your individual contribution is a mere pittance. The more players that are participating, the more points should be up for grabs.

Proportionality should be based on the idea that however many players on each alliance, that's how many points the other alliances cant win from taking its objectives. So, basically if there are zero AD and zero DC playing, then there are no points EP can win by PvDooring an empty map. EP didn;t PvP vs anything so they don;t get alliance points. End of story, end of "nightcapping."

I play during prime time AND during off-peak hours (depending on my work schedule). I think the idea of contributions mattering more during prime time only is ludicrous, as it would discourage gameplay during off-peak hours. Cyrodiil isn’t fun when there’s no one around. You all like to say that the map is empty on Gray Host during off-peak hours, but that is simply not true. There’s an IMBALANCE often, sure, but it’s far from “empty.”

“Night capping” ends when ZOS consolidates the campaigns into one and increases the population cap. EP only “night caps” Gray Host because most of Oceania’s AD players are on Blackreach at that time, while most of Oceania’s DC players are on Ravenwatch at that time. If everyone is forced into the same campaign, this “one alliance controlling one campaign” behavior is completely discouraged, because it’s impossible. If you want to play Cyrodiil without running into other players? Guess what, you can’t, because there’s only one campaign now.

One faction-locked campaign with a higher pop cap and a shorter campaign length (say one week) would completely revitalize Cyrodiil and end these needlessly antagonistic night cap threads.

Vizir

Coo_PnT wrote: »

Vizir wrote: »

Well the idea was that factions would theoretically balance themselves out because it would get boring for the winning team to constantly be having nothing to do. But players tend not to strive for balance and instead just jump on the bandwagon.

When EP dominated the camp during the New World release and the faction balance was reminiscent of the old days of buff campaigns, did any ep faction swap? I did and I was surprised that almost nobody else did camp after camp. The EP ball group strived for the 12v2 and was thrilled to do so month after month. Even now eyars later when off peak it's the same thing they are still rocking it.

I don't think the faction score matters and I don't think anybody else cares. It's the simple fact that being able to play an hour of pvp and not once have your health drop to 50% as the zerg healers can keep you up while you easily zerg down other players and keeps is fun. Pvping as AD or DC during off peak is literally just the Captain Sparrow running away from the zerg of cannibals. It's not that fun and so people leave. EP wiping the map over and over has less and less resistance and they love it.

On what theory do you think the factions will be balanced? Do you also believe that someone will lead the way? Do you? Will you move an entire guild or even your friends to another faction to try to balance a losing faction? For example, right now it costs a lot of money for my Nord EP character to try to move his campaign to DC.If that's the case I would buy the Rimworld DLC or the Cookie Clicker soundtrack.

I'm guessing you meant to reply to someone else's post? You ask questions in a reply to the post that answers those same questions?

darvaria wrote: »

It is a matter of a faction preferring to PV Door ... the other maps as opposed to consolidating on the campaign of your choice. Here's a shot of RH when at the same time DC was 1 bar on GH.

So, these players obviously prefer to PV Door the map, thus driving EP to GH. At this same time AD had run BR completely yellow.

I think it's largely the other way around. Ep dominates GH during early morning US or primetime oceanic and whoever wants to pvp on dc or AD goes to other servers or IC. When EP peaks in GH during these times there are enough EP to wipe every server's map.

EP has dominated during these times in multiple servers in years prior before pvp pop has slowly dwindled. I started in no-cp years ago and EP was dominant then.

EDIT: I would also just like to point out that RW is absolutely dead during non US primetime and so a coordinated group of 4 could practically wipe the map. Today from 0818 - 0838 eastern 1 dc guy has taken 4 resources without contest. AD and EP have not done anything that is visible on the map. Applewatch wood dolmen has been active long enough to drag tamriel into coldharbour so I guess the game is over. 10/10 Truly an exhilarating experience full of action packed pvp.

Just_Attivi

PC NA, BR and GH

I started as a BR main, AD has always been my main alliance, and probably ~1 to 1.5 years ago, EP spent about 6 months pop locking the map, sitting literally on AD gates with 12+ at each gate, specifically not letting any AD out the gates, for hours, genuinely entire days of gate camping gank squads proudly tbagging solo's that got 12v1'd, until prime time when guilds got in to finally push them out.

Eventually people had enough of this and team green'd EP into oblivion. Eventually, when guilds moved to GH because BR was mostly actionless, EP took over there again, pop locking vs no one, and would again, sit on AD gates with emp+zerg and farm solos from even getting resources.This is about when I moved to GH (6-7 months ago) for any semblance of actual pvp instead of just 1vEmp Zerg. so now, once again in BR, Team green is tired of it and gates EP. its cyclical behaviors of EP pushing empty maps in off hours, as the populations in that time frame seem to prefer (and I am not saying that to insult nor belittle anyone, it is just observations of behaviors. Having 24+ players chase a solo from winters peak to brk in combat while the whole map is red is the typical mindset ive witnessed from EP in that time slot. I wish i had a screenshot of it, but one EP zone general had 61 non-stealthed EP chasing me the moment drake lumber lit, according to my duo's addon, at a resource for 2 AD... like... come on, the map is red )

While the above is happening, GH has had a tremendous early hours EST population growth, and I witnessed the majority of EP from BR that normally played those hours swap to GH, because they got tired of the very same gating they dished out in BR, and claiming they are bullied in BR. Reality is that EP has routinely pushed others into that behavior (and im not claiming AD nor DC are innocent of gating/holding gates, we all know all alliances do it at various times, but EP has, for the entirely of the few years I played ESO pvp, gated and camped dead maps with overwhelming numbers, until enough people log in to finally push them back 6-10 hours later.) obviously every single individual of any alliance is not necessarily guilty of these behaviors, my guilds all dissuade others from holding gate keeps after scrolls are gone, but the issue remains that an observed majority of EP in that timeslot only play to zerg dead maps and win via population (witnessed even by the majority of players in said zergs all being 40-50k tanks, mostly polar winding wardens and chaining DKs, with 1-2 offensive abilities each, max, resorting to sieging solos because damage output is so low- not an insult to any individual, but a description of the type of players generally encountered).

my view is certainly biased, as I can mostly only see the events above from the lens of an AD fighting the above odds, and my time on other alliances is minimal by comparison. but the above observations have painted a clear picture of early hours EST EP preferring to pop lock zerg dead maps. if that population was willing to divide up, there would be more actual pvp in those hours, but then the later hour populations from other factions would also need to divide up. but most people dont want to change what they like nor care to, they just want to play with their friends/guild and have fun however they have fun (which is totally okay!). But add in the actual price to change alliances (I dont have every class on every alliance, if i want, say a DC sorc, i need to PAY to swap one) and alliance lock restrictions (which i do prefer), no one wants to swap for balance purposes when they are already having fun doing what they are doing.

I do think shorter campaigns, with the option to choose what faction you will play ANY character for at the start of each campaign, would alleviate a lot of these problems. For example, 1 week campaigns, I have 7 AD toons, 1 DC toon, 1 EP toon, but I want to play EP this camp, I choose 'Gray Host- Alliance Locked 1 week campaign-' and then select "EP" and now ALL of my 7 AD, 1 DC, 1 EP toon can play for EP in that campaign. it would eliminate some of the major hurdles of playing with whoever, trying new alliances, balancing pops, etc. But at the cost of ZOS earning alliance change token money, so.... pipe dreams lol

Joy_Division

Aurielle wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Maybe play those other games, then? As someone living in North America who often has no choice BUT to play during the hours you cite as being off limits (I’m a shift worker), it would suck to have my efforts “nerfed” just because there are people asleep in my time zone. In fact, it would discourage me from playing altogether and I’d end up playing something else, where my efforts are not invalidated just because some people think no one should be allowed to have any impact while they’re asleep.

Also, this idea that it’s just “PVD” is something I’d like to contest. Yes, there are times when it’s three bars versus one apiece for AD and DC, but there has also been many a time when I’ve played during Asian prime time and I’ve had plenty good fights with AD and DC. You’re all “sleeping” when this supposed PVD actually goes on, so you don’t witness the map yourself, but actually try playing during those times and you’d realize it’s not necessarily what you think it is. It’s not like Blackreach or Ravenwatch — definitely not to the same extent.

I frankly think it’s quite unfair to insult Oceania in this way, claiming that they’re just there to PVD. I’ve joined a number of Coo_PnT’s pugs and had lots of fun, plenty of drawn out battles where it didn’t look like we’d win. PVD is not fun to me, so I wouldn’t be joining those pugs if they were just PVD.

Do you think it is fair that off hour players have relatively far more impact than prime time players?

The same number of points are awarded regardless of the number of players, How is that remotely fair? If there are 100 points awarded and a 100 players on one alliance, that means their contributions come down to 1 point each. If there are 10 players on one alliance, that means their contributions amount to 10 points each, You want to talk about efforts being "nerfed," join the prime time crew where your individual contribution is a mere pittance. The more players that are participating, the more points should be up for grabs.

Proportionality should be based on the idea that however many players on each alliance, that's how many points the other alliances cant win from taking its objectives. So, basically if there are zero AD and zero DC playing, then there are no points EP can win by PvDooring an empty map. EP didn;t PvP vs anything so they don;t get alliance points. End of story, end of "nightcapping."

I play during prime time AND during off-peak hours (depending on my work schedule). I think the idea of contributions mattering more during prime time only is ludicrous, as it would discourage gameplay during off-peak hours. Cyrodiil isn’t fun when there’s no one around. You all like to say that the map is empty on Gray Host during off-peak hours, but that is simply not true. There’s an IMBALANCE often, sure, but it’s far from “empty.”

“Night capping” ends when ZOS consolidates the campaigns into one and increases the population cap. EP only “night caps” Gray Host because most of Oceania’s AD players are on Blackreach at that time, while most of Oceania’s DC players are on Ravenwatch at that time. If everyone is forced into the same campaign, this “one alliance controlling one campaign” behavior is completely discouraged, because it’s impossible. If you want to play Cyrodiil without running into other players? Guess what, you can’t, because there’s only one campaign now.

One faction-locked campaign with a higher pop cap and a shorter campaign length (say one week) would completely revitalize Cyrodiil and end these needlessly antagonistic night cap threads.

I didn't say contribution mattering more during only prime time. I said proportional to the population. Let's say we work at the same company, worked different shifts, and collaborated on the same project. Boss says, "well it's only fair that each shift gets paid the same pool amount." Yeah, if you work the night shift with just 10 other people from which you split $1000 that's great because you're going home with $100. Meanwhile, the 100 9-5 crew splits that same $1000, and goes home with $10.
Our contributions are not being equally valued.

It is true that a 24 hour pop-capped population would prevent nightcapping. ZOS will never consolidate the campaigns because people have strongly indicated specific preferences (pop lock, no cp). ZOS will also probably never increase the population cap because they are deftly afraid of the blowback from the miserable performance in Cyrodiil. Even if ZOS did those two things, I doubt there is a large enough playerbase to have a max population 24 hours. This isn;t going to happen.

What are the objections to the AvAvA scoreboard being tied directly to the enemy population? Are people afraid their PvDoor strategies might be worthless? Am I understanding correctly in that EP only nightcaps because DC avoids them on Ravenwatch? Why do (both) factions do this? Is it because they want to win the campaign? Well, if the AvAvA scoreboard only awarded points for actually PvPing, then the EP and DC would seek each other out on the same campaign because their PvDooring would be counterproductive to their desire to win the campaign.

Aurielle

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Maybe play those other games, then? As someone living in North America who often has no choice BUT to play during the hours you cite as being off limits (I’m a shift worker), it would suck to have my efforts “nerfed” just because there are people asleep in my time zone. In fact, it would discourage me from playing altogether and I’d end up playing something else, where my efforts are not invalidated just because some people think no one should be allowed to have any impact while they’re asleep.

Also, this idea that it’s just “PVD” is something I’d like to contest. Yes, there are times when it’s three bars versus one apiece for AD and DC, but there has also been many a time when I’ve played during Asian prime time and I’ve had plenty good fights with AD and DC. You’re all “sleeping” when this supposed PVD actually goes on, so you don’t witness the map yourself, but actually try playing during those times and you’d realize it’s not necessarily what you think it is. It’s not like Blackreach or Ravenwatch — definitely not to the same extent.

I frankly think it’s quite unfair to insult Oceania in this way, claiming that they’re just there to PVD. I’ve joined a number of Coo_PnT’s pugs and had lots of fun, plenty of drawn out battles where it didn’t look like we’d win. PVD is not fun to me, so I wouldn’t be joining those pugs if they were just PVD.

Do you think it is fair that off hour players have relatively far more impact than prime time players?

The same number of points are awarded regardless of the number of players, How is that remotely fair? If there are 100 points awarded and a 100 players on one alliance, that means their contributions come down to 1 point each. If there are 10 players on one alliance, that means their contributions amount to 10 points each, You want to talk about efforts being "nerfed," join the prime time crew where your individual contribution is a mere pittance. The more players that are participating, the more points should be up for grabs.

Proportionality should be based on the idea that however many players on each alliance, that's how many points the other alliances cant win from taking its objectives. So, basically if there are zero AD and zero DC playing, then there are no points EP can win by PvDooring an empty map. EP didn;t PvP vs anything so they don;t get alliance points. End of story, end of "nightcapping."

I play during prime time AND during off-peak hours (depending on my work schedule). I think the idea of contributions mattering more during prime time only is ludicrous, as it would discourage gameplay during off-peak hours. Cyrodiil isn’t fun when there’s no one around. You all like to say that the map is empty on Gray Host during off-peak hours, but that is simply not true. There’s an IMBALANCE often, sure, but it’s far from “empty.”

“Night capping” ends when ZOS consolidates the campaigns into one and increases the population cap. EP only “night caps” Gray Host because most of Oceania’s AD players are on Blackreach at that time, while most of Oceania’s DC players are on Ravenwatch at that time. If everyone is forced into the same campaign, this “one alliance controlling one campaign” behavior is completely discouraged, because it’s impossible. If you want to play Cyrodiil without running into other players? Guess what, you can’t, because there’s only one campaign now.

One faction-locked campaign with a higher pop cap and a shorter campaign length (say one week) would completely revitalize Cyrodiil and end these needlessly antagonistic night cap threads.

I didn't say contribution mattering more during only prime time. I said proportional to the population. Let's say we work at the same company, worked different shifts, and collaborated on the same project. Boss says, "well it's only fair that each shift gets paid the same pool amount." Yeah, if you work the night shift with just 10 other people from which you split $1000 that's great because you're going home with $100. Meanwhile, the 100 9-5 crew splits that same $1000, and goes home with $10.
Our contributions are not being equally valued.

It is true that a 24 hour pop-capped population would prevent nightcapping. ZOS will never consolidate the campaigns because people have strongly indicated specific preferences (pop lock, no cp). ZOS will also probably never increase the population cap because they are deftly afraid of the blowback from the miserable performance in Cyrodiil. Even if ZOS did those two things, I doubt there is a large enough playerbase to have a max population 24 hours. This isn;t going to happen.

What are the objections to the AvAvA scoreboard being tied directly to the enemy population? Are people afraid their PvDoor strategies might be worthless? Am I understanding correctly in that EP only nightcaps because DC avoids them on Ravenwatch? Why do (both) factions do this? Is it because they want to win the campaign? Well, if the AvAvA scoreboard only awarded points for actually PvPing, then the EP and DC would seek each other out on the same campaign because their PvDooring would be counterproductive to their desire to win the campaign.

If you want proportional scoring based on relative population sizes, then yes, you’re wanting contributions made during NA prime time to matter more than any contributions made outside of that time, because that is when all three alliances tend to be pop-locked.

So what are the objections to AvAvA scoring based on something as vague as enemy population, you ask? Well, say I take a keep with a small group of twelve, verses a comparable number of defenders, while the rest of my pop-locked alliance is zerging some other location on the map (like Alessia front door)… how on earth would it be fair for my group to gain no points or fewer points towards the campaign score, simply because there were more members of our alliance logged in at that point in time? The overall population on the map at any given time never tells the full story of each and every individual fight.

Like it or not, Cyrodiil is a largely game of numbers. It’s not a job, so trying to compare it to RL work scenarios doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. You’re right that ZOS will likely never consolidate the campaigns and increase the pop cap. It’s a shame, because it would absolutely put this tired old “night cap” complaint to rest once and for all, and the higher pop cap would make the experience more enjoyable for all. Just sat in the Gray Host queue for an hour and a half … it sure would be nice NOT to have to do that after a long, exhausting fourteen hour shift at work.

Joy_Division

Aurielle wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

But, I mean… even North America has people sleeping when other people in North America are awake and playing. When it’s 10pm in Vancouver, it’s 2am in Halifax. It’s impossible to dictate when “overnight” hours begin and end in a game even in the context of North America, because there are multiple time zones in NA. Then take into account that some North American players’ primary time when they’re able to play is in the morning/daytime, some might be night owls or shift workers who are awake all night anyway, etc…

There will always be a small minority that play during off hours because of work schedules etc. but they aren't enough to tip the scales.

And that's the problem, the tipping of the scales. That's why I said a night time should be designated for the NA and EU servers and any faction with higher pop than the other two should have their points earned nerfed for the duration. I'd say maybe 2 AM - 7 AM is a good window. For NA that would be 2 AM -7 AM Eastern, 11 PM - 4 AM Pacific. That's when most of the server is asleep, because you know they live in the same region as the server they play on.

I’d be all for an Oceanic server (mainly so they can have better pings and a better experience overall), but getting upset that some people are playing a game when some other players are sleeping will be a constant source of irritation to you until you accept that people have always played this game at different times of the day and always will.

Oh I've been dealing with it since Midgard was doing it on my server in DAOC. It's nothing new to me. They never addressed in that game and they won't address it in this game. Other games address it. I specifically know of a MMO that doesn't allow PvP for resource/region capturing outside the prime time window of the NA and EU server. It's exactly to prevent what goes in in Cyrodiil.

Maybe play those other games, then? As someone living in North America who often has no choice BUT to play during the hours you cite as being off limits (I’m a shift worker), it would suck to have my efforts “nerfed” just because there are people asleep in my time zone. In fact, it would discourage me from playing altogether and I’d end up playing something else, where my efforts are not invalidated just because some people think no one should be allowed to have any impact while they’re asleep.

Also, this idea that it’s just “PVD” is something I’d like to contest. Yes, there are times when it’s three bars versus one apiece for AD and DC, but there has also been many a time when I’ve played during Asian prime time and I’ve had plenty good fights with AD and DC. You’re all “sleeping” when this supposed PVD actually goes on, so you don’t witness the map yourself, but actually try playing during those times and you’d realize it’s not necessarily what you think it is. It’s not like Blackreach or Ravenwatch — definitely not to the same extent.

I frankly think it’s quite unfair to insult Oceania in this way, claiming that they’re just there to PVD. I’ve joined a number of Coo_PnT’s pugs and had lots of fun, plenty of drawn out battles where it didn’t look like we’d win. PVD is not fun to me, so I wouldn’t be joining those pugs if they were just PVD.

Do you think it is fair that off hour players have relatively far more impact than prime time players?

The same number of points are awarded regardless of the number of players, How is that remotely fair? If there are 100 points awarded and a 100 players on one alliance, that means their contributions come down to 1 point each. If there are 10 players on one alliance, that means their contributions amount to 10 points each, You want to talk about efforts being "nerfed," join the prime time crew where your individual contribution is a mere pittance. The more players that are participating, the more points should be up for grabs.

Proportionality should be based on the idea that however many players on each alliance, that's how many points the other alliances cant win from taking its objectives. So, basically if there are zero AD and zero DC playing, then there are no points EP can win by PvDooring an empty map. EP didn;t PvP vs anything so they don;t get alliance points. End of story, end of "nightcapping."

I play during prime time AND during off-peak hours (depending on my work schedule). I think the idea of contributions mattering more during prime time only is ludicrous, as it would discourage gameplay during off-peak hours. Cyrodiil isn’t fun when there’s no one around. You all like to say that the map is empty on Gray Host during off-peak hours, but that is simply not true. There’s an IMBALANCE often, sure, but it’s far from “empty.”

“Night capping” ends when ZOS consolidates the campaigns into one and increases the population cap. EP only “night caps” Gray Host because most of Oceania’s AD players are on Blackreach at that time, while most of Oceania’s DC players are on Ravenwatch at that time. If everyone is forced into the same campaign, this “one alliance controlling one campaign” behavior is completely discouraged, because it’s impossible. If you want to play Cyrodiil without running into other players? Guess what, you can’t, because there’s only one campaign now.

One faction-locked campaign with a higher pop cap and a shorter campaign length (say one week) would completely revitalize Cyrodiil and end these needlessly antagonistic night cap threads.

I didn't say contribution mattering more during only prime time. I said proportional to the population. Let's say we work at the same company, worked different shifts, and collaborated on the same project. Boss says, "well it's only fair that each shift gets paid the same pool amount." Yeah, if you work the night shift with just 10 other people from which you split $1000 that's great because you're going home with $100. Meanwhile, the 100 9-5 crew splits that same $1000, and goes home with $10.
Our contributions are not being equally valued.

It is true that a 24 hour pop-capped population would prevent nightcapping. ZOS will never consolidate the campaigns because people have strongly indicated specific preferences (pop lock, no cp). ZOS will also probably never increase the population cap because they are deftly afraid of the blowback from the miserable performance in Cyrodiil. Even if ZOS did those two things, I doubt there is a large enough playerbase to have a max population 24 hours. This isn;t going to happen.

What are the objections to the AvAvA scoreboard being tied directly to the enemy population? Are people afraid their PvDoor strategies might be worthless? Am I understanding correctly in that EP only nightcaps because DC avoids them on Ravenwatch? Why do (both) factions do this? Is it because they want to win the campaign? Well, if the AvAvA scoreboard only awarded points for actually PvPing, then the EP and DC would seek each other out on the same campaign because their PvDooring would be counterproductive to their desire to win the campaign.

So what are the objections to AvAvA scoring based on something as vague as enemy population, you ask? Well, say I take a keep with a small group of twelve, verses a comparable number of defenders, while the rest of my pop-locked alliance is zerging some other location on the map (like Alessia front door)… how on earth would it be fair for my group to gain no points or fewer points towards the campaign score,

You'd get the same number of points because it's on the same server against the same enemy population count.

If you want proportional scoring based on relative population sizes, then yes, you’re wanting contributions made during NA prime time to matter more than any contributions made outside of that time, because that is when all three alliances tend to be pop-locked.

That's not necessarily true. Proportion does not mean total number. If a server of 20 people fought against 20 enemies, they would get the same amount of AvAvA scoreboard points as pop lock vs pock lock. It is an attempt to mimic what the game already factors this in on an individual basis. If a group of 12 take a resource guarded by two enemies, all they will get is base + have to split up the 3K AP the enemy was worth 12 ways (so basically a pittance). If a single player accomplished the same feat, they would take the entire 3K for themselves.

Sylosi

If "nightcapping" didn't exist then Cyrodiil PvP would still be pointless for numerous reasons, you are playing a game mode that:

- Is a 30 day round the clock match.
- Let's you pick which team you are on.
- Let's you switch teams.
- Can easily be manipulated by people with multiple accounts (or even just multiple characters outside of Grayhost)
- Has different numbers of players on each team.
- Easily lets you stack one team or another.
- Has new players vs players with thousands of hours.
- Has casuals vs tryhards.
- Has 16 year olds vs 60 year olds.
- Is packed full of exploits / bugs.
- Is three teams, so two teams can simply choose to focus the other team and there is nothing they can do about it.
- Provides nothing meaningful for "winning".

The result of which is that is you have a "PvP" game mode that is so flawed competitively it essentially doesn't work as a PvP mode and never has. You need to be a roleplayer playing in some state of suspended disbelief to treat Cyrodiil as anything but a joke, "winning" in every aspect from the points to fights is meaningless. Which is why if "Nightcapping" disappeared tomorrow the "PvP" would still be pointless.

Which is a big part of why Cyrodiil and game modes like it are so unsuccessful.

Twohothardware

They could institute like a 12 hour rule from 12 PM to 12 AM US time where scoring is enabled and outside that window you can still capture keeps and resources and earn AP but it doesn't affect the score. They could even add like sirens that go off when you're nearing the scoring start and end time each day to make it interesting.

Outside of addressing night capping it might even make Cyrodiil more competitive again if everyone is focused in on earning points during a certain window of the day and the rest of the time they can be free to do whatever else they want like mess around farming players at an outpost or whatever.

Trying to keep the majority of Cyrodiil players engaged in pushing to cap keeps and resources and focus on score 24 hours a day just doesn't work and most just log off once the night capping starts.

darvaria

What would be the point of playing if you can't score? And you are discriminating against players in specific time zones or shift workers? They pay a sub just like everyone else has or have paid for DCL, which they are entitled to access.

2 factions
even ques
Shorter campaign, 7 days at most
Get rid of resource towers.
Get rid of outposts. We don't have 200 players now on each faction and can't control that large of a map.
Even get rid of the towns.
With smaller maps, the score differentials would be less extreme.

Aurielle

Twohothardware wrote: »

They could institute like a 12 hour rule from 12 PM to 12 AM US time where scoring is enabled and outside that window you can still capture keeps and resources and earn AP but it doesn't affect the score. They could even add like sirens that go off when you're nearing the scoring start and end time each day to make it interesting.

Outside of addressing night capping it might even make Cyrodiil more competitive again if everyone is focused in on earning points during a certain window of the day and the rest of the time they can be free to do whatever else they want like mess around farming players at an outpost or whatever.

Trying to keep the majority of Cyrodiil players engaged in pushing to cap keeps and resources and focus on score 24 hours a day just doesn't work and most just log off once the night capping starts.

What’s funny is that EP would probably still win with those rules in place. We were behind and pulled in front yesterday during your proposed 12pm - 12am scoring time slot due to good push decisions made by our zone generals prior to score evals. This would have been around 3-4pm EST, so WELL outside Oceania’s prime time. I kind of chuckled to myself and thought “how many of them are going to start complaining on the forums about day capping now?”

I haven’t played on AD or DC on PC NA, but based on zone chatter yesterday, it sounds like it’s difficult to get into groups on Gray Host on those alliances if you’re not in a PVP guild or you’re an unknown entity. It also sounds like PUG zergs get mocked quite a lot if they try a push and it goes south, and “zone generals” aren’t really a thing. If that’s true, maybe… you guys need to work on that? EP’s zone chat can get pretty toxic at times (usually due to certain players trolling zone on alt accounts), but for the most part, we all help each other out with callouts and have zone generals directing the flow of battle. It’s not hard to get into a group or find the zerg if there isn’t a non-guild group running. We just play to win and have fun. You’ll be more effective as an alliance if you support your PUGs and work together.

DrSlaughtr

PVP is a lot more enjoyable when you don't care about who wins the campaign. Worry about winning the time you're playing and having fun.

Kartalin

I think there's probably two ways to address this issue, but unfortunately both of them rely on ZOS actually doing anything:

1) Change scoring based on population imbalances or some other metric

2) Change AP rewards for capturing empty or near empty keeps

There's just too much benefit for choosing to be on the side that is already winning lopsided. The 6k AP reward per player for capturing an empty keep and thus an empty map is too significant. What if each keep had a flat 10k AP award for capturing that was divided among combatants (or another number, not much higher though) plus the split AP from defeating any defenders? Would that encourage people to split up among factions more, and rebalance the population themselves?

Just throwing out ideas here.

darvaria

I don't think ZOS can fix this.

Just wait and populations will shift. It's been this way for 10 years, with one faction always night capping or capping at off times (early day capping maybe?) Seems population saturation times have already shifted. Wait and your faction will come out with the top score by doing it. Trust me, this changes around.

NOTHING will stop pop locked/3 bar factions from running the map one color. NOTHING. You've got to accept that some players love PV Dooring. Others, log out when they see this kind of map.

Do you really trust ZOS to make changes? Just leave it like it is.

doabhi

can I just say that I find the whole point of shunning people for 'PVDooring' completely stupid and childish? this is Cyrodiil!

If all you want to do is brawl then go play BGs for death-match where that's the entire point of the game mode.

Cyro is about strategy and map domination, which I'm sorry to inform you - involves "PVDoor" because that's literally the objective of the game. Going out and humping towers and farming lowbies or whatever doesn't have any bearing on the team score, because it's literally not the focus of the scenario at play. If you don't care about the score that's fine, to each there own - but don't then go and complain that other people in the same scenario "Don't want to PVP and only want to PVDoor" because that's not the point of cyrodil at all. It's a large team Map domination strategy game. Brawling is just partisan to the process of achieving it.

doabhi

Kartalin wrote: »

I think there's probably two ways to address this issue, but unfortunately both of them rely on ZOS actually doing anything:

1) Change scoring based on population imbalances or some other metric

2) Change AP rewards for capturing empty or near empty keeps

There's just too much benefit for choosing to be on the side that is already winning lopsided. The 6k AP reward per player for capturing an empty keep and thus an empty map is too significant. What if each keep had a flat 10k AP award for capturing that was divided among combatants (or another number, not much higher though) plus the split AP from defeating any defenders? Would that encourage people to split up among factions more, and rebalance the population themselves?

Just throwing out ideas here.

We had this, It was called low pop bonus. But then whenever a team had it (because they had low pop) all the other teams came on the forums to whine and complain because in their mind it was some how being abused. Now it's been mostly turned off, and the same people who used to complain are now winning more with the 'Nightcapping strat' because the scores less balanced based on player population

Aurielle

I will say it was utterly hilarious on Friday when a known AD troll who spends virtually all his time whining in EP zone chat about how EP can only nightcap and PVDoor, about how nightcapping is "unfair," literally handed off Volendrung to AD while AD was dominating the map during PC NA prime time with a significant score lead. He took it, ported directly to the AD zerg, and delivered it straight to them. But it's "nightcapping" that's "unfair," yes...

Aurielle

Gray Host at 5:30pm EST on a Monday afternoon:



Surely my eyes deceive me? Surely that's not the most noble Aldmeri Dominion day capping while most of EP and DC were at work or on their way home from work?

Jokes aside, congrats to AD for finally stepping it up a notch this campaign. You've got a fairly comfortable lead at this point and will be tough to beat.

Agrippa_Invisus

I've proposed this before plenty of times, even opened my own threads on the subject.

But here we go, once more --

Dynamic population locks.

To explain -- Set the locks on the highest pop faction to only 1-3 more people than the lowest population. If people want to not suffer an absolutely disturbingly long queues in the off hours, they will need to spread out evenly amongst the three factions. It's either that ore likely 1-2 hour long queues for the locked faction. As more people for the lower pop factions log in the the lock on the capped faction relaxes more and more.

I, personally, would feel no sympathy for them. Especially certain guilds that have refused, for years, to split up to spread out during the off peak hours where they typically run the map one color or the other. It's been ten years at this point, we know players will NEVER be able to fix this themselves. Only by forcing the issue will things even out.

Everyone should be able to play with a balanced population and a fair chance at winning a fight, no matter when they log in, be it 3 AM Eastern US time or 3 AM Eastern Australian time. No one should spend their play window getting steam rolled by 3 or more times their numbers just because that's when they happen to be able to log in. This is a 24/7 game (minus maintenance windows) and any time period should be viable.