Dueling In ESO?

joakim.bang1b16_ESO

RakeWorm wrote: »

joakim.bang1b16_ESO wrote: »

Dueling is the single most important feature to make this game keep a good pvp-scene, everyone isn't playing it for the pve features. Without duels there is no way for newer players and perfectionists to practice their pvp. It makes for an extreme learning curve that may demotivate new players from pvping, and it will frustrate the more serious actors as they won't get a proper arena to test new things.

That first sentence is absolutely hysterical.

The PvP in ESO is large-scale. Practicing 1v1 would have limited utility because you are not practicing a situation that you would often run into while PvPing. Having a great dueling build means nothing when the battles you face have dozens of people in combat at once.

Well, obviously most of the pvp in ESO is large-scale, and you are right that situational awereness and group cohesion is a decisive factor in winning large engagements.

However, doing hundreds of practice-duels to work on your mechanics, timing, general knowledge of different classes, situational awereness here as well (i.e. how much damage you can dish out at once versus different roles, figuring out when it's time to get the *** out, stat management etc.) will help keep the people that take pvp seriously interested in the game. It will also be something for us to do at times where we don't have enough people to field a decent group, for example now that everyone is leveling up. In addition, a huge group in a large scale fight is still made up of individual players, and a huge group featuring a bunch of players of high individual skill that has had the opportunity to PRACTICE will beat a similar group of people that have not.

The reason I wan't dueling to be in the game is not so I can run around in a city, spam people with requests and hope to flex my epenis. It's so that I can practice fighting other players, experiment, coach and receive coaching. Ideally I'd like there to be group-duels too, but I'll settle for 1v1-duels first.

Vikova

joakim.bang1b16_ESO wrote: »

(stuff)

While I get your point, you are greatly exaggerating the necessity of this. You can practice rotations and memorize dps patterns through PvE as well against the same kind of NPC. In addition, I've never known dueling to ever be taking seriously as a practice tool by PvPers in the past - they use practice dummies instead (which I fully support the implementation of).

And even if you aren't wanting this for the e-peen, that is what it will be primarily used for.

UnknownXV

Rake, this is not about necessity. It's simply a positive addition that will not in any conceivable way negatively impact anyone who does not wish to be involved with it. Don't want to receive duel requests? No problem, disable them in the options menu. If you're even worried about losing immersion to random people dueling in the streets, you could isolate duels to specialized areas in town (though I would prefer being able to duel anywhere that is an acceptable compromise).

It's easy to implement a dueling system that allows those who wish to partake of it to do so without bothering those who are not interested in it in anyway. It's a curious case where arguing over it is completely pointless, since it can be done in a way that pleases everyone.

kirnmalidus

joakim.bang1b16_ESO wrote: »

Dueling is the single most important feature to make this game keep a good pvp-scene, everyone isn't playing it for the pve features. Without duels there is no way for newer players and perfectionists to practice their pvp. It makes for an extreme learning curve that may demotivate new players from pvping, and it will frustrate the more serious actors as they won't get a proper arena to test new things.

People can test builds in open PvP combat. In fact, I'd argue that testing a build in 1v1 duel is misleading and a waste of time. Just because your build is successful in that context doesn't mean it will work well in actual AvA PvP. That's like testing a new car on a climate controlled indoor track and expecting it to perform identically in the real world in a blizzard. Test your car in a blizzard and find out how it really performs.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Id rather not. Nothing is more annoying then being level one and getting 15 duel requests from no-life level 50's as soon as I zone in.

MercyKilling

joakim.bang1b16_ESO wrote: »

but please lets try to keep this thread civilized and free of negativity and insults.

It's a thread about PvP. Insults and name calling will inevitably and invariably happen.
To expect otherwise out of a PvP thread is ludicrous and insanity at its highest point.

Xen91

I can see how dueling would be a ton of fun and an amazing way to test new builds etc.

joakim.bang1b16_ESO

kirnmalidus wrote: »

joakim.bang1b16_ESO wrote: »

Dueling is the single most important feature to make this game keep a good pvp-scene, everyone isn't playing it for the pve features. Without duels there is no way for newer players and perfectionists to practice their pvp. It makes for an extreme learning curve that may demotivate new players from pvping, and it will frustrate the more serious actors as they won't get a proper arena to test new things.

People can test builds in open PvP combat. In fact, I'd argue that testing a build in 1v1 duel is misleading and a waste of time. Just because your build is successful in that context doesn't mean it will work well in actual AvA PvP. That's like testing a new car on a climate controlled indoor track and expecting it to perform identically in the real world in a blizzard. Test your car in a blizzard and find out how it really performs.

While you definitely have a point, in that NOTHING beats the actual scenarios, the point of duels (from my point of view, and the way I would use such a system) is that they are easily accessible (you just need ONE person from your guild to be online to duel), making a great source of quantity practice. I know there's an age-old saying that says "quality before quantity", but I say why not both?
The second, perhaps more important aspect that you have completely missed is that duels make coaching possible, but at this point I am only repeating myself.

DFDelta

Who cares about PvP, I just like beating up my siblings...
...Ingame, I mean.

Kidding aside, I actually do like duels.
They are a good/fun way to pass time when waiting for your other party/raid members to come online.
Not everyone wants to spend his waiting time afk or farming and there is only so much you can chat about, especially if you're in TS3 anyways.

Since traveling in this game is instant and free it would not even have to be available everywhere.
Just put some arena styled building down somewhere, enable duel requests inside and allow us to travel there from wayshrines.

tdgeddesub17_ESO

I'm really confused at all the hostility to dueling. Practicing 1v1 duel is an excellent way to practice and build skills. Allowing more advanced players to battle and allowing less advanced players to learn in an environment where They don't have a 5 minute run back to the battlefield. I think the majority of people disagreeing probably feel really powerful right now sitting in the back of a Zerg and don't want to be challenged of that feeling. If you can disable duel requests, why would you vehemently deny the ability for people who would enjoy it? Maybe because you are one of those people i see in Cyrodiil where we come into a 1v1 situation and you run as fast as you can.

Glaktic

There is absolutely no reason not to have dueling. Establish a system that doesn't let you request duels again for a certain duration of time if you are rejected and you will not have spam problems. To not add dueling is to not add content many MMOs in the industry have. The amount of MMO content that was not added to this game is ridiculous.

AngryNord

Arena fighting would be the most lore-friendly way to do it, IMO.

YuccaPalm

The only people who don't want duels are the ppl who cry about duel request, just give them an option to ignore requests - problem solved.

KerinKor

Glaktic wrote: »

To not add dueling is to not add content many MMOs in the industry have. The amount of MMO content that was not added to this game is ridiculous.

To stay without it is to be like many MMOs in the industry as well. See, the argument works/fails both ways.

As for "amount of MMO content" .. which game(s) are you asserting define just what content an 'MMO' should have?

TheFio

Biggest issue I see is that this game is not balanced around 1v1 but instead on large scale pvp. So what is balanced in rvr may be broken in duels. In such cases you will have many many without the 2 brain cells to realize such and cry here when they get repeatedly owned in a duel. Now with the balance being designed around RVR what will happen if the devs start trying to balance around duels? I dont know about you but I dont want my class tuned in ANYWAY around tards spending hours dueling in the bank/crafting area.

And god forbid pvp 'balancing' ends up nerfing pve viability.

KerinKor

No MMO balances 1v1 with very good reason.

KingRebz

Teroh wrote: »

I dont see how someone who loves mmo's would ever think more options are a bad thing. Especially something like dueling which can have an option to disable requests and does not negatively effect anything.

^^^^^^^^!

jizzmoh69

I am reading this thread and i am absolutely shocked and disgusted by the sheer amount of negativity towards dueling coming from the spineless cowards who don't even participate in pvp. Is it so hard to understand that many people who play this game actually play with friends? And that groups of friends that take part in pvp always feel competition with each other. As the game stands now, there is literally no way to prove and test yourself against your friends. Bottom line, if you seriously don't like dueling then turn the option off and enjoy the silence and walk away. Your cowardly nature is no reason to leave a feature as simple as dueling out of the game, especially when it can add so much to the gameplay experience. Even as a little thing to do on the side to pass time with friends. If you really don't like dueling then *** off because this thread is about adding to the game and improving it. Not holding back its potential to be "less like WoW" or less interactive. The arguements here are ridiculous. Half the people arguing against dueling literally just sound afraid of increased player interaction. Its maddening. Just turn a cheek and realise that many players have real reasons why they think dueling should be added and that until they do, there is going to be a massive empty void in the game for us.

On a side note, id be willing to bet that roughly 50% of the opposition towards dueling is coming from the same people who have taken advantage of every exploit so far and who run around in giant grinding hordes running in circles around the best mob spawn areas. PLEASE ZENIMAX ADD DUELING, IGNORE THESE MOUTH BREATHERS, THEY DONT HAVE FRIENDS ANYWAYS!!!!!!

NordJitsu

Dueling isn't just a PvP feature. Its absolutely necessary for roleplaying, social interaction, guild community, build testing, ect.

The absence of dueling is my number one disappointment with this game. Failure to fix this error is the one thing that could make me unsubscribe from this game (huge fan with lots of time invested, so I don't say that lightly.)

There is simply no excuse for failing to implement a feature which has always been fundamental to both MMOs and Elder Scrolls games in an Elder Scrolls MMO.

Please add dueling yesterday.

pysgod1978b14_ESO

I wouldn't mind seeing dueling added. I wouldn't even mind seeing an arena added. What I don't want to see them do is add it. Then attempt to balance the game around it and try to turn it into an E-sport. That is one of my main issues with WoW and why I quit not too long after BC came out. It became more about "professional gaming", gear scores, raiding the same dungeons for the 10th time that week for that one piece of gear, and E-sports. Blizzard focused more on a MOBA ideal and less on the fun and lore side. I enjoyed world PvP in WoW. It meant nothing but it was fun. It was about the community as a whole. People would get on the forums later and smack talk some but it was never in a way meant to demean someone. The newer crowd that Blizzard drew in after the changes in BC are the kinds of people that demean and belittle because it makes them feel big.

Poposhka

I'm not a big dueler, and I can understand that if they did implement it there are aspects that some people would not like. I'll try and list them here.

Duel request spam: Easily dealt with by adding an option to ignore duel requests, have the option enabled by default so that they who do wish to duel have to go to their options menu and disable it.

People dueling everywhere: For me, not being a big dueler myself, I actually enjoyed people dueling in Goldshire or outside Orgrimmar. It added something special - people gathering together, people chit-chatting, etc. As opposed to the normal anonymous solo-play we see in so many MMOs these days. But I can (kind of) understand why some people feel annoyed by this, just like they find grouping in dungeons annoying, or anyone else playing the game they're in, i guess. Whatever the reason, fine, let's compromise. Add a fighting pit to the outskirts of town where duelers can congregate - heck, add a different zone (an arena) so you don't even have to worry about accidentally running into duelers.

Dueling is not valid for RvR: Okay, fine, I accept your argument to a certain degree (the zerg aspect). But hear me out here - Dueling teaches you how to best use your abilities against a human-controlled character, which is vastly different from an AI mob. It also teaches you valuable lessons in how others use their abilities on you, and how you can mitigate or avoid them. You can beat a mob by spamming light attacks, but you try that on a player and you're toast.

Dueling may cause 1v1 balance: This is a legitimate concern. IMHO PvE in World of Warcraft suffered at times because of changes implemented to balance PvP when they tried to make their eSport work. Thankfully, they never went to the 1v1 balancing, and the ESO devs better be careful how to proceed down the balancing path when addressing RvR and PvE aspects.

Dueling causes smack talk: This is always going to happen, in every game, forever - no matter if we have dueling or not. This is the nature of the internet, and it will be up to the forum mods to handle. On the other hand, a little bit of friendly banter between factions or rivals add to the community.

I never PvP, so don't implement dueling: I frankly do not understand this argument. It's like saying I went to Cyrodiil at level 10 and always PvP so don't implement Adventure Zones, because i never PvE anymore, or I never play the Orc race, so remove all Orc racial benefits. I can understand if you don't care about PvP and dueling, but to outright oppose it? Are you people getting off on ruining things for others? Is this a trolling attempt?

Dueling will attract terrible humans: I can see this argument, however, it is up to the devs to make sure these types of players have a minimal impact on those around them. Much of this can be solved by ignore options and enforcement of TOS, however, duels being limited in use, I wouldn't expect a flood of terrible people as like Darkfall experienced.

Catches_the_Sun

jizzmoh69 wrote: »

I am reading this thread and i am absolutely shocked and disgusted by the sheer amount of negativity towards dueling coming from the spineless cowards who don't even participate in pvp. Is it so hard to understand that many people who play this game actually play with friends? And that groups of friends that take part in pvp always feel competition with each other. As the game stands now, there is literally no way to prove and test yourself against your friends. Bottom line, if you seriously don't like dueling then turn the option off and enjoy the silence and walk away.

I present to you exhibit A of the level of maturity for the pro-dueling crowd.

I played DAOC for several years, which is the RvR game for which ESO is the spiritual successor. I am certainly not a "spineless coward who doesn't participate in PvP" . Quite the contrary...I love the RvR style of PvP that DAOC introduced & ESO is built around.

I despise "dueling" for many reasons, and do not want it in ESO.

* It ruins my immersion to see people within our Alliance, that are supposed to be united against the other 2 Alliances, fighting each other for "practice".

* Even if you can auto-decline duel requests, just having the option invites trouble. If somebody wants to duel me & I have the feature turned off, I'll be trolled, laughed at, cursed at, and all the usual stuff you'd expect from people running around trying to duel everybody that harvests an ore node near them.

* Balancing issues & discussions. People say on one hand that they want to practice their builds on other people in a 1v1scenario, while on the other hand, they insist that it won't affect balancing. Really? What are you going to do when you learn that (insert skill here) is not good enough to beat your buddy's build? Just shrug it off? Nope...they'll flock to these forums and demand changes.

* This is a AvA environment. All abilities need to be balanced with AvA in mind. Your "practice" for AvA by fighting 1v1 is virtually useless.

Want to work on your timing? Get YOUR spineless butt to Cyrodiil and fight for something that matters. I'm not sure what to tell you about the lack of ways for you and your friends to compare epeens.

Catches_the_Sun

NordJitsu wrote: »

There is simply no excuse for failing to implement a feature which has always been fundamental to both MMOs and Elder Scrolls games in an Elder Scrolls MMO.

Please add dueling yesterday.

There have been numerous MMOs released without dueling. ESO never advertised that they would have dueling to begin with. Why was the lack of such a feature not enough to keep you from buying the game, but suddenly is a high enough priority for you to stop playing?

I don't understand the Elder Scrolls argument at all. What dueling are you referring to? Tavern brawling? In tavern brawling, you couldn't use your weapons or abilities. That is a far cry from the expectations of the players that want dueling in ESO.

Maybe Tavern Brawling is a solution though. Give us a few tavern brawling locations and a Brawler's Guild. Let us fight without weapons, armor, or class skills, and let us earn BG ranks and skills that can ONLY be used within the brawling arena on a Brawling-Arena-Only hotbar. This would be lore-friendly, would eliminate potential 1v1 balance issues, and contain Brawling within a confined area.

NordJitsu

@Catches_the_Sun‌

The MMOs without dueling are called "bad MMOs." We don't want ESO to be that.

And in most games without dueling, players found a way to do it. In GW2 people set up special battlegrounds dedicated to dueling.

In ESO, there is no work around. Even if you're friends with someone from another faction and are willing to spend the 10 minutes running or the 7,200 AP for a forward camp, other people will show up to grief your duel.

And its not "all of a sudden." I was a closed Beta tester for the game throughout much of development and I lobbied for this feature throughout.

Its going to hurt the longevity of the game a lot.

Catches_the_Sun

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Catches_the_Sun‌
And its not "all of a sudden." I was a closed Beta tester for the game throughout much of development and I lobbied for this feature throughout.

Its going to hurt the longevity of the game a lot.

So you played in closed beta knowing dueling wasn't in the game, and wasn't going to be in the game anytime soon, yet you still bought it. That tells me that there is at least something else in the game that appealed to you. Now, 2 weeks into release, you threaten to unsub if they don't put it in?

The notion that the lack of dueling will hurt the long-term success of the game is laughable. Dueling at best is a gimmicky side-feature used by a small percentage of players. Even the players that would use it wouldn't spend a large percentage of their time doing so. IMO, the focus needs to be on AvA & PvE endgame content and horizontal progression. If they do those things well, nobody will give a damn that they can't duel in the long run.

Blackwidow

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

[

* It ruins my immersion to see people within our Alliance, that are supposed to be united against the other 2 Alliances, fighting each other for "practice".

So, soldiers don't practice before they go to war? This bothers you? Why?

You never heard of countrymen challenging each other to a duel?

You have never seen two friends fight? Brothers fight?

You have never seen a bar fight?

You never saw two friends play fighting?

* Even if you can auto-decline duel requests, just having the option invites trouble. If somebody wants to duel me & I have the feature turned off, I'll be trolled, laughed at, cursed at, and all the usual stuff you'd expect from people running around trying to duel everybody that harvests an ore node near them.

Ummm... How can this be solved.... oh right, don't turn it off.

/solved

* This is a AvA environment. All abilities need to be balanced with AvA in mind. Your "practice" for AvA by fighting 1v1 is virtually useless.

Not true. First, practice can very much help find your footing in the pvp realm.

More important, it is a roleplaying tool as well as fun for friends to challenge each other.

This is a fun tool and there is no logical argument that can be made as to why it should not be in the game.

NordJitsu

@Catches_the_Sun‌

I think you're confused. I said I'm a huge fan of the game so obviously there's lots of other things I enjoy about it. And I didn't "threaten" to unsub. I'm saying that this is the one problem with the game that's made me consider it.

Instead of focusing on me or the way I like to play though, maybe we could talk about, idk, the subject of the thread?

Dueling adds a ton of extra gameplay hours for very few development hours. Its easy to add but adds a lot to the game. Whenever I get bored or run out of content I can spend hours and hours dueling with my friends.

On the PTS (closed beta) we spent a lot of time doing this. Not just a small percentage of players. A large chunk of the PvP base. What does that tell you? In a game with large scale PvP, sometimes people just want small scale fights.

Why? Because your own actions make more of a difference. Its not a numbers game. Its not about who has the keeps or the NPCs on their side. Its mano e mano test of pure skill.

Catches_the_Sun

Blackwidow wrote: »

This is a fun tool and there is no logical argument that can be made as to why it should not be in the game.

I could just as easily turn that around & say there is no logical argument to include it in the game. We have differing opinions. I have played MMOs since EQ/UO, and have put thousands of hours in over the years. I can't think of one instance in all of those years where the inclusion of a duel system gave me a meaningful experience. I can, however, think of dozens of instances where it has been abused.

Catches_the_Sun

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Catches_the_Sun‌

Instead of focusing on me or the way I like to play though, maybe we could talk about, idk, the subject of the thread?

I have posts focusing on the subject of the thread. You must not have seen them.

Blackwidow

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

I could just as easily turn that around & say there is no logical argument to include it in the game.

You could, but you would be wrong. Just that fact that many players want it is a good reason.

The fact that there is a switch that keeps the abuse to 0% is a good reason to have it.

The fact that it would bring more players into the game is a good reason.

The fact that it would help so many people with immersion is a good reason.

We have differing opinions. I have played MMOs since EQ/UO, and have put thousands of hours in over the years. I can't think of one instance in all of those years where the inclusion of a duel system gave me a meaningful experience. I can, however, think of dozens of instances where it has been abused.

The abuse is fixed with a simple switch.

I've played MMOs longer than you, and I can tell you this tool brings joy to many people. I think you know that as well.

Only people who are completely selfish would vote against a tool so easy to apply, easy to keep from being abused, and would make so many players happy.