Tarnished Nightmare and ranged burst proc stacking need to go

Bushido2513 · July 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But if you nerf tarnish all the tarnish users will ask how do we burst people down now?

By pressing buttons. Not letting your gear play the game for you.

Sadly that just won't really do it. Tarnished makes it too easy to hit hard, Ward makes it to easy to defend and heal, and cross heals just make your hands hurt like you're playing endless archive with no reward.

I hope they can figure out how to get the right balance for procs vs shields, undeath, and heals

xylena_lazarow · July 24

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I hope they can figure out how to get the right balance for procs vs shields, undeath, and heals

Maybe getting rid of Undeath alone will be enough to justify some of the other overpowered defensive skills. Either way, I'm really looking forward to it, I think we'll see more heavy armor and tank sets in the meta, which is a good thing. It means we're getting back midrange builds that run 1 tank set + 1 damage set, a sign of a more balanced meta.

Tarnished Nightmare still needs to get lost, no excuses.

Bushido2513 · July 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I hope they can figure out how to get the right balance for procs vs shields, undeath, and heals

Maybe getting rid of Undeath alone will be enough to justify some of the other overpowered defensive skills. Either way, I'm really looking forward to it, I think we'll see more heavy armor and tank sets in the meta, which is a good thing. It means we're getting back midrange builds that run 1 tank set + 1 damage set, a sign of a more balanced meta.

Tarnished Nightmare still needs to get lost, no excuses.

Proc sets will always be a thing most likely. Tarnished just needs to be adjusted. Though it's not like we haven't seen this cycle over and over. It'll get nerfed but still something has to be done about understanding how we keep getting into these crazy burst windows with stacked damage.

malistorr · July 24

I don't play with proc sets and rarely ever have. They really only help you kill bad players with bad squishy builds and low health who don't know how to self heal. I never had much success with them because most players I come across are the tanky sweaty types.
Tarnished is no worse than all of the other proc sets over the years. ZOS always adds new ones to sell DLCs and nerfs old ones. This has repeated for the whole history of the game. If you don't want to play with proc sets allowed you can. It's called Ravenwatch. Very few people play there because most players prefer the diversity of the full range of sets.

NuarBlack · July 24

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I hope they can figure out how to get the right balance for procs vs shields, undeath, and heals

Maybe getting rid of Undeath alone will be enough to justify some of the other overpowered defensive skills. Either way, I'm really looking forward to it, I think we'll see more heavy armor and tank sets in the meta, which is a good thing. It means we're getting back midrange builds that run 1 tank set + 1 damage set, a sign of a more balanced meta.

Tarnished Nightmare still needs to get lost, no excuses.

Proc sets will always be a thing most likely. Tarnished just needs to be adjusted. Though it's not like we haven't seen this cycle over and over. It'll get nerfed but still something has to be done about understanding how we keep getting into these crazy burst windows with stacked damage.

Way back in the red mountain and viper days I defended proc sets because there was a trade off in that sets like ravager and seventh legion boosted your healing while the former didn't. If we could get back to that and maybe even to a point where healing needs investment even more as well I think that would be great.

Or these sets need the draugerkin treatment but maybe even harsher where they lower healing or prevent you from entering cloak/stealth for a duration after. Some tradeoffs at all would be nice.

IncultaWolf · July 24

One time I was on my troll block necro tank in cyrodiil, and I literally heard the tarnished sound proc every half second for like 8 minutes straight, this large group of EP gankers were all running it. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

xylena_lazarow · July 25

NuarBlack wrote: »

Or these sets need the draugerkin treatment but maybe even harsher where they lower healing or prevent you from entering cloak/stealth for a duration after. Some tradeoffs at all would be nice.

I love Draugrkin, favorite 5pc set ever, very strong but also gives the opponent a fair chance to fight back. High risk, High reward. Meanwhile, Tarnished burst proc stacking is the opposite, it's used solely to clown opponents from a safe distance so that no actual PvP interactions can ever happen. No risk, all reward.

I've often defended proc sets in the past, plenty of them are fine and balanced, they can synergistically enhance pressure builds like Way of Fire or Syvarra's Scales, they can offer skillfully timed burst opportunities like Red Mountain or Maarselok. Some proc sets are inexcusably broken. Tarnished and friends are braindead free burst damage. Nerf hammer.

Bushido2513 · July 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Or these sets need the draugerkin treatment but maybe even harsher where they lower healing or prevent you from entering cloak/stealth for a duration after. Some tradeoffs at all would be nice.

I love Draugrkin, favorite 5pc set ever, very strong but also gives the opponent a fair chance to fight back. High risk, High reward. Meanwhile, Tarnished burst proc stacking is the opposite, it's used solely to clown opponents from a safe distance so that no actual PvP interactions can ever happen. No risk, all reward.

I've often defended proc sets in the past, plenty of them are fine and balanced, they can synergistically enhance pressure builds like Way of Fire or Syvarra's Scales, they can offer skillfully timed burst opportunities like Red Mountain or Maarselok. Some proc sets are inexcusably broken. Tarnished and friends are braindead free burst damage. Nerf hammer.

It's almost like sometimes when making a set they just say hey guys we need max results from minimal effort whatcha got for me.

When your proc sets produce upper range results in damage, defense, or sustain just for basically unconditionally playing the game it either becomes the go to above all others if not a busted option. Neither is usually a good thing for overall game health when you want to feel like there's diversity.

FoJul · July 26

silky_soft wrote: »

All damage proc should only proc from initial direct cast of skill. Not via "dealing damage", which can be a dot 20s later. Heck, procs should have thier own 1s gcd. 1 proc per second. But that will never happen because they like heaps of code being dumped at once then blame us for lag.

Otherwise they should un nerf selene delay, viper doing dot and return the vamp proc to camo Hunter.

Im down for viper getting un nerfed.

StaticWave · July 26

Kaysha · July 26

StaticWave wrote: »

Tarnished only did slightly more damage than the critical light attack. Really overpowered.

StaticWave · July 26

StaticWave wrote: »

That's 23.2k damage from a simple Bow heavy > Silver Bolt. Procs did 8194 damage, and that's with 1 proc not critting. They made up 35% of that burst.

If you're going to allow Tarnished Nightmare and Anthelmir's Construct to stack, then revert all the changes to previous proc sets.

Bushido2513 · July 26

Tarnished on its own isn't that bad but the stack potential is too easy. Tarnished doesn't exceed their normal DPS standards for a proc set, it just stacks too easily with other things

xylena_lazarow · July 26

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're going to allow Tarnished Nightmare and Anthelmir's Construct to stack, then revert all the changes to previous proc sets.

For real, give me back Old Viper, Old Sloads, and Old Savage Werewolf. Kinda disgusting and insulting that Dawnbreaker and other actual melee skills have a longer delay than these braindead ranged burst procs. Hey ZOS, if something would proc off of a ranged stealth attack, here's how you design it: don't.

StaticWave · July 26

Kaysha wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tarnished only did slightly more damage than the critical light attack. Really overpowered.

It crits for 4k max for me, and I’m in 3.7k crit resist and 26k armor back bar.

How about acknowledging that it’s FREE damage that can be combined with other skills to burst without any extra investment?

xylena_lazarow · July 26

Kaysha wrote: »

Tarnished only did slightly more damage than the critical light attack.

This is why nobody noticed when the set launched. It's not a problem on its own, it's that it enables heinous proc stack builds that play the game for you with 10k completely free burst damage minimum, no additional buttons pressed.

Bushido2513 · July 26

Midyear is going to be a great showing of just how prevalent this set is.

Bushido2513 · July 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Midyear is going to be a great showing of just how prevalent this set is.

[snip]

You don't even have to encourage it. I cannot go one play session without hearing this proc several times. Again the is one where there's little room to argue what's going on here. The only argument is maybe someone that wants to run it in pve. Anything else is just saying I want the game to do all of the heavy lifting for me but as far as I know ZOS at least wants players to be somewhat engaged when playing.

[edited to remove quote]

Lalothen · July 26

ZOS really need to be much more liberal with the "against players" & "against monsters" caveats, and using Battle Spirit to delineate sets as PvP or PvE. I'm sick to death of sets that are fine for PvE - and sourced from PvE - being flagged as broken/op in PvP, and then consequently getting nerfed so they're useless in both content types. I don't blame PvPers for this either; I blame ZOS and their continued failure to properly separate out PvE & PvP - at the very least in terms of gear.

xylena_lazarow · July 26

silky_soft wrote: »

All damage proc should only proc from initial direct cast of skill. Not via "dealing damage", which can be a dot 20s later... Otherwise they should un nerf selene delay, viper doing dot and return the vamp proc to camo Hunter.

Today I killed an enemy wearing Tarnished, then got Tarnished procced off the dead guy's poison arrow dot. Twice. A dead guy's armor set passively proccing me with burst damage (and a horrendous sound effect). Twice.

Highwayman · July 26

Kaysha wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tarnished only did slightly more damage than the critical light attack. Really overpowered.

We have to count the sundered proc as well.

Also very likely sundered resulted in increased damage of the light attack in question (and the other attacks that immediately followed).

I think it's fair to say the set did significantly more damage than the light attack.

katorga · July 26

Good or bad, i’m using it on a 1 bar build during mym because it is less impacted by lag.

Imo, THAT is why proc builds are popular.

Durham · July 26

Looks like we are going to wait another patch for them to do anything. Snail speed!

FoJul · July 27

I guess we continue to run ball groups with 50 differeent buffs and crossheals for days. Good luck tarnished users. its scary out there in MYM. Dont get pulled by the rush of agony bomb

xylena_lazarow · July 27

FoJul wrote: »

50 differeent buffs and crossheals... Dont get pulled by the rush of agony bomb

They both have the same problems. Long range, no telegraph. No risk, all reward. Bad game design.

Bushido2513 · July 28

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

50 differeent buffs and crossheals... Dont get pulled by the rush of agony bomb

They both have the same problems. Long range, no telegraph. No risk, all reward. Bad game design.

But when you say it like that all I see is Telvar $$$ 😂

katorga · July 29

FoJul wrote: »

I guess we continue to run ball groups with 50 differeent buffs and crossheals for days. Good luck tarnished users. its scary out there in MYM. Dont get pulled by the rush of agony bomb

That is kind of the point. All of the "INSANE" "BROKEN" streamer builds really only have any value in a BG where groups are hard capped or PVE.

Cyro...all about the ball group....unlimited healing, unlimited shielding, max movement speed, CC immune chain pulls, puts players in permanent "in combat" status, and generates a massive lag bubble rendering them unable to respond. The only skill a player needs running in the same direction as the group.

xylena_lazarow · July 29

katorga wrote: »

Cyro...all about the ball group

It's only a tiny fraction of PvPers that play in ball groups, but of course when you allow groups to become nigh unkillable, it will seem as if there are far more of them, when it's really one group crashing every fight and never dying (also abusing procs). If you go outside where the ball group is, expect to be hit by invisible Tarnished procs every few seconds.

Bushido2513 · July 29

katorga wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I guess we continue to run ball groups with 50 differeent buffs and crossheals for days. Good luck tarnished users. its scary out there in MYM. Dont get pulled by the rush of agony bomb

That is kind of the point. All of the "INSANE" "BROKEN" streamer builds really only have any value in a BG where groups are hard capped or PVE.

Cyro...all about the ball group....unlimited healing, unlimited shielding, max movement speed, CC immune chain pulls, puts players in permanent "in combat" status, and generates a massive lag bubble rendering them unable to respond. The only skill a player needs running in the same direction as the group.

I just became sad inside reading this. I also tend to stick to ic and bgs. Not because I don't like open world but because lag is basically always a thing and it's one thing to die to a group because I made a wrong play and another when my skills just won't fire.

Durham · July 29

Tarnished will receive a Nerf, but you must wait for another cycle or 2. They are extremely slow at balance in this game. Even when they know there is imbalance they are in no hurry to fix it. I also do not see them ever addressing ball groups. I do believe they think ball grouping is a PVP feature in Cyrodill.