Consider changes to Vampirism

Vulkunne

After reviewing the proposed changes in Update 43 I wonder if its Vampirism itself that needs an adjustment and not place a strong emphasis on nerfing its features, like the nerf to the 'Undeath' passive, however not necessarily limited in scope to just that. Undeath has been around for many years now and I'm glad to see its not been completely removed. However, after this nerf, a power-gap will be left where Vampirism's reduced Health Recovery in concert with Battle-Spirits Reduced Health Recovery may not be sufficient to consistently offer protection from the insane amount of damage many players are frequently capable of producing these days. A large portion of the community are Vamps, given the existing problems with WW, and so I believe regardless of the opinion of Undeath, more attention to this change is going to be required as a defensive suite for things like PvP is something that has layers and can be a complicated matrix.

Theist_VII

Undeath’s nerf was completely justified.

If the idea of 20% less mitigation is scaring you, I would suggest throwing on a tank set, try Pariah.

Theist_VII

How is it a “slap in the face”?

No passives should be stronger than sets, the fact that Undeath was allowed to stay at 30% as long as it did is atrocious.

Spearblade

It was nerfed. It still exists. It's just not viable as people's sole source of survivability anymore lol.

Vulkunne

Spearblade wrote: »

It was nerfed. It still exists. It's just not viable as people's sole source of survivability anymore lol.

You didn't read my post. Undeath never was people's sole source of survivability. [Snip]

Undeath could never be this because the Health Recovery is virtually non-existing. If they had full health recovery you might have a case but they don't.

[Edited for bait]

xylena_lazarow

Undeath was disgustingly overpowered compared to any other defensive tool in PvP, one of the main factors in the obnoxious "tank meta" where even full damage builds often stalemate each other. Now if you want to survive like that, you build tanky, you don't get it for free, but you won't have a problem with a good defensive build.

Vulkunne

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Undeath was disgustingly overpowered compared to any other defensive tool in PvP, one of the main factors in the obnoxious "tank meta" where even full damage builds often stalemate each other. Now if you want to survive like that, you build tanky, you don't get it for free, but you won't have a problem with a good defensive build.

Ok so Undeath is gone now. It wasn't overpowered. It worked when people built to use it.

The problem is people bringing insane amounts of damage to the table. Taking away undeath, is an indirect nerf to defensive abilities for most of the community.

If Undeath is going away, give Vamps Health Recovery or pull this change. Because people are packing so much damage already that Undeath really won't do anything for you to start with because the incoming damage is so intense and abusive.

Undeath, I say again, never did anything for me unless I built defensively. Why am I being punished for building defensively or more importantly, now everyone will just continue building offensively because now there is no defense.

A 5/10% buff is nothing. A 15/30% buff is a little something but in and of itself its nothing. It can never, was never and will never be the sole source of anyone's defense. Its being punished for being misunderstood by people who don't see how someone else is defending.

React

Undeath has been overperforming for 3 years now. It was about time it was changed.

You know, there was once a point in time where you had very limited sustain, ultimates had no cast times, and everyone more or less ran full damage and could one shot you or be one shot by you at any given moment. The only way to survive was proper resource management, and proper timing of your blocks/rolls to counterplay things.

I think people are so used to being able to just face tank and heal through everything they've forgotten about those days. Maybe this change will be the first step towards creating some semblance of those times again.

Theist_VII

Vulkunne wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

How is it a “slap in the face”?

No passives should be stronger than sets, the fact that Undeath was allowed to stay at 30% as long as it did is atrocious.

[Snip]

When Zenimax decided to standardize the game with a power spreadsheet, they gave every category a budget.

As far as passives go, it is a rule of thumb that they are either as strong, or weaker than sets. If you believe this to be false information, feel free to log into any of your characters and find us a passive that has even a candle to the flame that Undeath was.

For anyone that’s been around, it’s quite obvious that 30% was an absurd value, it made Undeath the only passive that broke the rule, and with more than twice the value of any set or passives in the game.

[Edited quote]

Vulkunne

React wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for 3 years now. It was about time it was changed.

You know, there was once a point in time where you had very limited sustain, ultimates had no cast times, and everyone more or less ran full damage and could one shot you or be one shot by you at any given moment. The only way to survive was proper resource management, and proper timing of your blocks/rolls to counterplay things.

I think people are so used to being able to just face tank and heal through everything they've forgotten about those days. Maybe this change will be the first step towards creating some semblance of those times again.

But a first step to where? See I get what you are saying but to me that does not seem to be the reason why this is being done. They're just doing it there's no plan and no statement to indicate they're doing this with the vision you're describing.

Its a bad change and its being done because people have chosen Undeath as the ire of their hate for other things while the problems are not addressed. This is not being done as part of a package its just being done. And that's worrisome but not for any selfish reasons provide by others.

propertyOfUndefined

Health recovery hasn't been worth much since they halved its effectiveness with battle spirit. Even at 1-10% I would choose undeath over it.

SkaraMinoc

Vulkunne wrote: »

d) Most of the Community plays as Vamp.

I doubt this is true. Most of PvP in ESO is extremely casual and full of non-Vamp PvErs that dip in and out.

Tinkerhorn

Undeath is massively over performing extending to people multiple gcd's at a critical moment to essentially reset a fight. That said I do believe undeath is a fraction of the problem and that the removal of it will have unintended consequences and will not be a straight forward or smooth hit to the tank meta. Certainly will be that resistances are more important. Might be _in practice_ that the less tanky dd builds are punished harder as it's not exactly hard to build tanky and with ample damage. The game has unfortunately been balanced in places with undeath in mind/practice. It's removal may highlight existing imbalances previously masked by undeath. We can only find out. May my fears be wrong!

Firstmep

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

Undeath is massively over performing extending to people multiple gcd's at a critical moment to essentially reset a fight. That said I do believe undeath is a fraction of the problem and that the removal of it will have unintended consequences and will not be a straight forward or smooth hit to the tank meta. Certainly will be that resistances are more important. Might be _in practice_ that the less tanky dd builds are punished harder as it's not exactly hard to build tanky and with ample damage. The game has unfortunately been balanced in places with undeath in mind/practice. It's removal may highlight existing imbalances previously masked by ward. We can only find out. May my fears be wrong!

I think it's fine to let undeath go for a patch and see what happens.
It will make it easier to.spot outliers both offensively and defensively.

As to the OP. Undeath was not the only think adding to ppl.being tanky, but it created a very unhealthy gameplay loop where players could not be punished for dropping low health.
It also enabled ppl to run no defensive sets and still be rather tanky.

Now if people want to get this tankiness back they can actually invest into, which will make their builds lack elsewhere.

Pretty much always when I look at balance, I check what's the opportunity cost of a certain skill or set, and if there isnt one or if it's to low, than good chance its overperforming.

Major_Toughness

Pretty much every PvP still uses Minor Protection, so it can't be that useless. Major Protection is more rare to see but the sources of it require investment.

Undeath? Requires zero investment. Especially in CP PvP. I'm not sure what you mean when you need to build around Undeath to make it useful. That is completely false. The only thing you might change is slightly more sustain to deal with the increased skill cost that comes withStage 3 vampire.

Skjaldbjorn

Vulkunne wrote: »

Because it seems like the game is being bent and reshaped from what was a cool, PvP game to something that caters to PvE and normal activities. Like the game, I feel, is losing its saltiness ok.

I hate to break this to you, but there have only been a handful of PVP-centric or PVP-focused MMOs that didn't die very quickly. PVE is the fundamental building block to almost every successful MMO. PVP exists, and can vary wildly between great and awful. Warhammer Online had terrific PVP, but the PVE was terrible. There's a reason the game is dead. Same fundamental issue for New World. SWTOR also had terrific PVP at launch, but PVE wasn't good enough to keep players at the time.

MMOs have to cater to PVE or your population will disappear. They're the whales, they're the super long-term players. This isn't League. If Zos stopped making PVE content and changes, ESO would die a very quick, very painful death.

There's nothing wrong with PVP in an MMO. It can be super fun. But if a company is making it the central theme, it's likely doomed to fail.

Zyaneth_Bal

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

Undeath is massively over performing extending to people multiple gcd's at a critical moment to essentially reset a fight. That said I do believe undeath is a fraction of the problem and that the removal of it will have unintended consequences and will not be a straight forward or smooth hit to the tank meta. Certainly will be that resistances are more important. Might be _in practice_ that the less tanky dd builds are punished harder as it's not exactly hard to build tanky and with ample damage. The game has unfortunately been balanced in places with undeath in mind/practice. It's removal may highlight existing imbalances previously masked by undeath. We can only find out. May my fears be wrong!

I agree, there’s already a thread on precisely this subject. Undeath indeed requires a nerf but because it’s getting all the attention other more fundamental issues go unnoticed by the majority of players that don’t have a good understanding of combat and thus they don’t get the highlight. Such issues will likely become more apparent with undeath nerfed, hopefully it won’t take too long for them to be addressed.

Tommy_The_Gun

I am pretty sure that if you stack "nerfed" Undeath with major & minor protection and other sources like some sets that give you % dmg reduction and with some armour on top you will still be fine.

As for "ball groups" - I agree with the OP. Undeath nerf will mostly be felt by solo & small scale players. Ball Groups won't notice the nerf unless ZOS will adress healing & shields stacking problem in group enviroment.

Zyaneth_Bal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am pretty sure that if you stack "nerfed" Undeath with major & minor protection and other sources like some sets that give you % dmg reduction and with some armour on top you will still be fine.

As for "ball groups" - I agree with the OP. Undeath nerf will mostly be felt by solo & small scale players. Ball Groups won't notice the nerf unless ZOS will adress healing & shields stacking problem in group enviroment.

Undeath really was too strong which didn’t feel very good but not on it’s own and it’s true that there needs to be a way to deal with absolutely crazy damage that is so easily accessible now.
Currently it’s healing, provided you are tanky enough to not risk 100-0, players have 7k+ hps without even investing into it. Add burst heals that on their own can heal back to full in a single gcd.

In my opinion we should gain some other sources of mitigation but healing should be nerfed significantly. That would bring up minimal ttk and would prevent players from being able to reset the fight in a matter of 1-2 gcds.
There have been lots of additions and changes since battle spirit was last touched. Perhaps it’s time for it to be updated.

Agreed with everything in the second abstract but shield stacking because it’s obsolete since several years ago. Sorcs use one shield, arcs use one shield as their main and only reliable class heal and that’s it. Some other classes have much more potent healing than that. People always bring up shields for some reason ever since 2014, many kept asking for nerfs to ward even before the recent buffs when it was so bad no one used it anyway. It has become a byword at this point, people say “shield stacking” and don’t even think into it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

People keep saying Undeath was overpowered and needed nerfing, did they forget it is granted in return for the weaknesses they need to deal with as well? I agree that since it was nerfed the Health Recovery debuff should also take a hike, infact at stage 3 they should get a 500 health recovery buff as the new stage 3 passive.

xylena_lazarow

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ok so Undeath is gone now. It wasn't overpowered. It worked when people built to use it

How to build for Undeath: be vampire stage 3

...

I don't think players realize how insane 30% mitigation was. ZOS finally looked at it and concluded it was triple the power it should be, and nerfed accordingly. Weaker PvPers who die to everything think they'll miss it, but they'll still die to everything with no change. If you want PvP to be less insane then demand ranged proc stacking nerfs, you are dying to an invisible long distance Bow Heavy into Tarnished + whatever, and Undeath was never going to save you.

Zyaneth_Bal

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

People keep saying Undeath was overpowered and needed nerfing, did they forget it is granted in return for the weaknesses they need to deal with as well? I agree that since it was nerfed the Health Recovery debuff should also take a hike, infact at stage 3 they should get a 500 health recovery buff as the new stage 3 passive.

More healing is the last thing we need. Immense healing is the issue to begin with. It’s true that undeath nerf is “symptomatic treatment”.

Zyaneth_Bal

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Ok so Undeath is gone now. It wasn't overpowered. It worked when people built to use it

How to build for Undeath: be vampire stage 3

...

I don't think players realize how insane 30% mitigation was. ZOS finally looked at it and concluded it was triple the power it should be, and nerfed accordingly. Weaker PvPers who die to everything think they'll miss it, but they'll still die to everything with no change. If you want PvP to be less insane then demand ranged proc stacking nerfs, you are dying to an invisible long distance Bow Heavy into Tarnished + whatever, and Undeath was never going to save you.

It is only insane because of the amount of healing players have. Undeath allows them to survive fatal damage and heal back to full in a single gcd resetting the fight. But it wouldn’t be and wasn’t the case with less abundant healing. Undeath used to be much stronger in the past and even then survivability wasn’t such an issue. My point is that undeath is not the actual problem, in the end mitigation without healing doesn’t mean that much.

Aurielle

Vulkunne wrote: »

b) The damage that players themselves are dishing out these days is absolutely incredible. The damage is the problem and Undeath was a nice way to stand a chance against this kind of abuse, when built properly.

I see this stated a lot. However, none of my characters are vamps, and they frequently outlast fellow group members who are vamps. The idea that Undeath is somehow mandatory for Cyrodiil has always been a little suspect to me. I can certainly see its value if you’re 1vXing or troll tanking, or if you’re part of an unkillable ball group. I would argue that for the average organized group player, however, it’s little more than a crutch that sometime leads to sloppy defensive play.

HushAzrael

The problem with fixing pvp issues is that pve and pvp are inherently and indelibly connected. Nerf healing and you nerf pve, especially end game pve, where healing is important. The same can be said for shields. Nerf healing or shields and you will see waves of pve players quit (again). As someone else rightly pointed out, pve is what makes a successful game long term.

That leaves poking around skills that are primarily used by pvp players. The most over performing passive skill used almost exclusively by pvp players is undeath. It’s also NOT necessary to have. I look at most things ZOS does with extreme side eye, but this is not one of them.

xylena_lazarow

Years of the same pattern.

Bad players complain about damage and demand defense buffs.
ZOS eventually does what players ask, nerfing damage while buffing the tank meta.
Bad players still die instantly, but good players are now more unkillable.

Bad players complain about damage and demand defense buffs.
ZOS eventually does what players ask, nerfing damage while buffing the tank meta.
Bad players still die instantly, but good players are now more unkillable.

You wanna stop dying so quickly? Delete ranged burst proc stacking. That's what's killing you.

Aurielle

React wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for 3 years now. It was about time it was changed.

You know, there was once a point in time where you had very limited sustain, ultimates had no cast times, and everyone more or less ran full damage and could one shot you or be one shot by you at any given moment. The only way to survive was proper resource management, and proper timing of your blocks/rolls to counterplay things.

I think people are so used to being able to just face tank and heal through everything they've forgotten about those days. Maybe this change will be the first step towards creating some semblance of those times again.

You said everything I wanted to say, but better. I took a four year break from the game between 2019-2023, but never lost that “gotta keep on my toes” mentality when it comes to playing in Cyrodiil. I’m hopeful that the Undeath nerfs will force players to learn (or relearn) how to play defensively, instead of crutching on a passive. It would be nice not to get bombed because group members who really should know better don’t know how to hold block when they see that Dark Convergence proc.

mmtaniac

People will finally die. You still can build tanky but now you need to sacriface something for tankiness.

Zyaneth_Bal

mmtaniac wrote: »

People will finally die. You still can build tanky but now you need to sacriface something for tankiness.

Depsite what most blindly believe that is not what will happen because actual problems remain untouched.

mmtaniac

I know problem is healing but still undeath was too strong. After i get it i could ignore other defense sets and make my character full offensive in pvp. Undeath was enough defense.

Zyaneth_Bal

mmtaniac wrote: »

I know problem is healing but still undeath was too strong. After i get it i could ignore other defense sets and make my character full offensive in pvp. Undeath was enough defense.

Solo players will be somewhat easier to kill
but his will mainly serve to make groups with cross-healing even stronger though, because they have so much healing that they don’t need undeath anyway. Small scale fights will not be affected very much.