Consider changes to Vampirism

MEBengalsFan2001

It’s part of playing a MMO. I have sen this happen so many times in other mmos. Everything you listed sounds like you enjoy god mode and enjoy being overpowered against other players that may not use things that are broken or over powered either due to lack of knowledge on said things or players that simply prefer not to use things that are clearly broken or overpowered.

This adjustment is long over due. IMO stage 2 should provide the damage reduction of 5% when above 50% health and move to 10% when below 50% health at night time. No damage reduction applied during day time hours.

The bonus damage should be moved to stage four. Stage three should be the go invisible after running for 3 seconds.

These changes would require stage four for the bonus damage, stage 2 would provide good damage reduction at night time and no damage reduction during day time hours. These changes imo would greatly improve the vampire.

xylena_lazarow

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Small scale fights will not be affected very much.

As a smallscale sweatlord, you are extremely wrong. There are an inordinate number of encounters that go sideways because a focused target was clinging to life at low hp spamming block and cross heals, long enough for the rest of the zerg to show up and send us into the hills. We now wipe that group, then wipe their reinforcements, as Akatosh intended.

Fights between smallscale sweatlords will stalemate less frequently, and any high apm sweatlords that have been relying on low apm blocky block heal tactics to stay alive are going to have to adapt hard. Any players who think they are entitled to survive without building tanky or pressing buttons will have a reckoning.

Durham

In the past undeath was not as bad because everyone tried to use some type of fire damage. However with DKs regulated in the last 2 patches as being subpar compared to Nighblades, Sorcs, and to some extent Wardens, you have the rise of the ICE staff and lighting staff. This passive is now overperforming.

Durham

mmtaniac wrote: »

People will finally die. You still can build tanky but now you need to sacriface something for tankiness.

Except for 2 classes that sacrifice nothing for it.

Zyaneth_Bal

Durham wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

People will finally die. You still can build tanky but now you need to sacriface something for tankiness.

Except for 2 classes that sacrifice nothing for it.

When will people stop turning everything into class hate threads.

Castian

I realize the topic of Undeath is more pertinent in the PvP realm, but as someone who primarily is PvM I wanted to express an opinion and please take it with a grain of salt.

I joined ESO around 2017ish. It was fun building a character up from scratch in that first year and a vampire tank for running dungeons and trials was really interesting separate from the other benefits the world skill brought.

That said I am a little at a loss about the DEV statement about critiquing a player's ability to build around the penalties. What started as a vulnerability to fire and Fighters Guild abilities expanded into eating away at your timer by using vampire abilities to increasing the cost of using non-vampire abilities (and because it has been so long I can't recall at what time it was in place) also the impact on health regeneration. That seems like game balance compensating for resource costs among other weaknesses.

The nerf stick is starting to suck the fun out, no pun intended, for vampire. The passive stamina/magicka regeneration was a nice perk back in the beginning, then there was the uncapped Health cost of Simmering Frenzy which was a lot of fun where you could get yourself killed stubbing your toe (I am unsure of how risking suicide imbalanced the game), and now a knock to vampire tanking takes the next hit.

I'm not pleading for anything, but maybe consider an alternative approach. If you are able to code nerf/buffs on entry into Cyrodiil perhaps something similar could be done when entering as a vampire instead of a broad stroke of the brush.

xylena_lazarow

Castian wrote: »

That said I am a little at a loss about the DEV statement about critiquing a player's ability to build around the penalties.

In PvP the penalties were trivial, it was the strongest defensive buff in the game and it was effectively free.

DrNukenstein

Can't wait to see how little of a difference the undeath nerf makes. After all the other mitigations, armor, block, it's just the cherry on top.

xylena_lazarow

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Can't wait to see how little of a difference the undeath nerf makes. After all the other mitigations, armor, block, it's just the cherry on top.

I've been running at Stage 1 already, it's very noticeable, 30% is such an obscene number in this game.

Bluestin

I'm very excited with this change, yes there are other problems that need addressing in PvP and Class Balancing, but as Xylena said; the 30% mitigation value was obscene. Overall it gives me some hope for PvP balance.

Character builds moving forward are going to need to be more thoughtful as to where and how they are sourcing damage mitigation which is healthier for PvP.

Vonnegut2506

I don't PvP, so I have no reason to be a vampire. Hopefully, once it stops affecting PvP to such an extent, they can actually make it useful in PvE again.

DrNukenstein

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I've been running at Stage 1 already, it's very noticeable, 30% is such an obscene number in this game.

I am still on 3 because I don't believe my own thought

Zyaneth_Bal

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Can't wait to see how little of a difference the undeath nerf makes. After all the other mitigations, armor, block, it's just the cherry on top.

I've been running at Stage 1 already, it's very noticeable, 30% is such an obscene number in this game.

Aren’t 20-30k heals or 30-40k bursts obscene though? Undeath could use a little tuning but it’s definitely not worth all the attention it’s getting and diverting it that way from real issues

xylena_lazarow

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Aren’t 20-30k heals or 30-40k bursts obscene though? Undeath could use a little tuning but it’s definitely not worth all the attention it’s getting and diverting it that way from real issues

This is a nonsensical what-about fallacy. Free 30% mitigation was the realest of issues in the PvP tank meta, exponentially compounding other problems like Hardened Ward or Polar Wind. If you are scared of dying, wear tank sets?

Zyaneth_Bal

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Aren’t 20-30k heals or 30-40k bursts obscene though? Undeath could use a little tuning but it’s definitely not worth all the attention it’s getting and diverting it that way from real issues

This is a nonsensical what-about fallacy. Free 30% mitigation was the realest of issues in the PvP tank meta, exponentially compounding other problems like Hardened Ward or Polar Wind. If you are scared of dying, wear tank sets?

You hate undeath so much that you don’t even consider anything else. Be constructive please.
And if ward is an issue consider wearing damage sets. No wonder undeath is so much trouble for you.
Besides, the numbers I gave are very real and not uncommon by any means.

xylena_lazarow

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

You hate undeath so much that you don’t even consider anything else. Be constructive please.

We aren't game devs. There's nothing for us to "consider" because we don't design the game. ZOS looked at Undeath and very wisely decided its design was not appropriate for the current version of the game, and cut it by a factor of 3, so the devs are clearly not messing around here. And yes I do hate Undeath so much. Praise Sithis for its demise.

Zyaneth_Bal

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

You hate undeath so much that you don’t even consider anything else. Be constructive please.

We aren't game devs. There's nothing for us to "consider" because we don't design the game. ZOS looked at Undeath and very wisely decided its design was not appropriate for the current version of the game, and cut it by a factor of 3, so the devs are clearly not messing around here. And yes I do hate Undeath so much. Praise Sithis for its demise.

If there’s nothing to consider why are you even here? If your only purpose was to show your hatred for a passive then I do believe you have accomplished that. But if you must do it here next time create a separate thread, please.

xylena_lazarow

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

If there’s nothing to consider why are you even here? If your only purpose was to show your hatred for a passive then I do believe you have accomplished that. But if you must do it here next time create a separate thread, please.

I'm here to say no, it's not a mistake to nerf it, here are some reasons why. Not to design the new Undeath.

React

Vulkunne wrote: »

React wrote: »

Undeath has been overperforming for 3 years now. It was about time it was changed.

You know, there was once a point in time where you had very limited sustain, ultimates had no cast times, and everyone more or less ran full damage and could one shot you or be one shot by you at any given moment. The only way to survive was proper resource management, and proper timing of your blocks/rolls to counterplay things.

I think people are so used to being able to just face tank and heal through everything they've forgotten about those days. Maybe this change will be the first step towards creating some semblance of those times again.

But a first step to where? See I get what you are saying but to me that does not seem to be the reason why this is being done. They're just doing it there's no plan and no statement to indicate they're doing this with the vision you're describing.

Its a bad change and its being done because people have chosen Undeath as the ire of their hate for other things while the problems are not addressed. This is not being done as part of a package its just being done. And that's worrisome but not for any selfish reasons provide by others.

I mean, I do get what you're saying. In reality I doubt there is any vision for fixing the "tank meta" beyond this change. But to say that they shouldn't have nerfed it because there are other things which are problematic as well is just backwards logic.

The "tank meta" has been a problem since the patch they hybridized the game. This is genuinely the first change I have seen made in all that time that actually begins to address the issue. They have to start somewhere, right?

I'm saying this as a primarily solo player too - this nerf is probably going to hurt me worse than anybody else. My PVP experience is likely going to get drastically harder as a result of this - but at least maybe people will start dying again, and perhaps in future patches they'll address the other issues such as HOT stacking, health being too high, damage shields being too strong, sustain being infinite, and burst heals being too potent.

ketsparrowhawk

Don't even need to read the wall of text. Absolutely false. This is the best PvP balance change in a very long time.

Twohothardware

With hybridization making sustain even easier and the meta being putting all your points in health it made going Vampire for Undeath a mandatory no-brainer on every build.

Major Protection is only 10% so Undeath being up to 30% was crazy.

nejcn001

PVP was stalemating, thats why i quit.
With undeath changes, i might come back.

Zyaneth_Bal

HushAzrael wrote: »

The problem with fixing pvp issues is that pve and pvp are inherently and indelibly connected. Nerf healing and you nerf pve, especially end game pve, where healing is important. The same can be said for shields. Nerf healing or shields and you will see waves of pve players quit (again). As someone else rightly pointed out, pve is what makes a successful game long term.

That leaves poking around skills that are primarily used by pvp players. The most over performing passive skill used almost exclusively by pvp players is undeath. It’s also NOT necessary to have. I look at most things ZOS does with extreme side eye, but this is not one of them.

That’s why battlespirit exist. Healing, mitigation and damage values can be tuned with no consequence for pve. It has been changed time after time in the past suiting the needs of current balance. There have been many additions since the last time, it’s overdue for another adjustment.

VixxVexx

You could argue that nerfing Undeath but leaving skills like templar beam untouched isn't a very good idea.
The Undeath change is an improvement though. It could be better (not stage 1), but this is already way above my expectations from the combat team.

Players should choose to be a vampire if they want to make use of vampire skills. Not because of a single passive.

mmtaniac

Believe me i would like to nerf in templar beam.I am templar main. They should nerf beam and redistribute part of this damage to other offensive abilities.

xylena_lazarow

React wrote: »

I'm saying this as a primarily solo player too - this nerf is probably going to hurt me worse than anybody else.

This only hurts players who play too passively and rely too much on face tanking. You'll adapt easily, it's the guys trying to zerg you down that are now gonna be dropping instead of clinging to life at low hp long enough to zerg you.

Zyaneth_Bal

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

React wrote: »

I'm saying this as a primarily solo player too - this nerf is probably going to hurt me worse than anybody else.

This only hurts players who play too passively and rely too much on face tanking. You'll adapt easily, it's the guys trying to zerg you down that are now gonna be dropping instead of clinging to life at low hp long enough to zerg you.

This hurts all players who don’t have insane hots or run in a group with cross-healing. And solo players will be hurt the most because, naturally, when there’s only one target it inevitably takes a lot more damage than anyone in a group or zerg. So this nerf will have a far more pronounced effect in 1vX fights than in 1v1, tipping the scales even further in favor of numeric superiority.
You did mention running in small scale, so I can see why you would crave this nerf so much. Any organized group has a lot of cross-healing and doesn’t make much use of undeath anyway while solo players and less organized groups are going to lose a lot of mitigation, in other words it’s a huge buff to organized groups and good ones are already borderline impossible to deal with.

xylena_lazarow

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

You did mention running in small scale, so I can see why you would crave this nerf so much

If you rely on active defenses such as clicking heals, rolling, blocking, LoS, positioning, etc, you will be fine. That's what I already do. I'm playing Stage 1 right now and yes I'm dying more, but this is the process. If most of what you do is face tanking and passively waiting for things to happen, you'll die unless you run tank sets, as it should be.

NuarBlack

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

This hurts all players who don’t have insane hots or run in a group with cross-healing. And solo players will be hurt the most because, naturally, when there’s only one target it inevitably takes a lot more damage than anyone in a group or zerg. So this nerf will have a far more pronounced effect in 1vX fights than in 1v1, tipping the scales even further in favor of numeric superiority.
You did mention running in small scale, so I can see why you would crave this nerf so much. Any organized group has a lot of cross-healing and doesn’t make much use of undeath anyway while solo players and less organized groups are going to lose a lot of mitigation, in other words it’s a huge buff to organized groups and good ones are already borderline impossible to deal with.

This is the mentality that got us into the predicament in the first place. Balancing the game around small scale and solo within cyro is a fools errand. Superior numbers and organization is always going to win. Any tools you give small scalers and solo players will be used more effectively by ball groups than solo players. And that includes undeath. It definitely prevents you from securing kills on stragglers and those that stray from the group.

I firmly blame 1vXers for the majority of pvp's problems. Templar used to be the only good pvp group healers except their heal was casted and therefore interrruptable. The 1vXers cried that they couldn't heal like groups could so now everyone has healing like templar and it isn't interruptable cause that was bad for 1vXers who thought they should be able to face tank a bigger more coordinated group. So instead of asking for pvp content more conducive to solo and small scale than Cyro we played this stupid game of a cat chasing it's tail. Gave the 1vXers what they wanted only for the ball groups to use it better. Sure the 1vXers could stomp a group of noobs every now and then due to the knowledge gap but all that did was thin the pvp population cause those players thought pvp was busted, correctly, and soon all you have is the wannabe 1vXers and the ball groups.

And the problem was never solved cause it's fundamental to cyro. The bigger more coordinated group will always win. Only semi effective counter was when siege was good against players.

xylena_lazarow

NuarBlack wrote: »

I firmly blame 1vXers for the majority of pvp's problems.

Being insecure over dying in an elf game is hardly unique to self-styled "1vXers" as there are plenty of opinionated casuals and tryhard anti-meta crusaders on bad builds demanding damage nerfs for their egos patch after patch.