Suggestion for a smoother Undeath rework

Berenhir

Hey @ZOS_BrianWheeler

first of all, thank you for tackling the blatant imbalance of the Undeath passive.

I think your idea of reworking the passive is a step in the right direction but I would humbly suggest you to consider some fine tuning.

First of all:
What made undeath so broken in PvP was the lack of real trade offs it had. The extremely high additional damage mitigation should have been countered by a very noticeable cost increase and vulnerabilities at stage 3. This didnt work out in real game application. The main reason was down to the sheer amount of undeath mitigation which allowed players to ignore defensive measures and sets and to use 3-5 pieces of medium/light which countered the skill cost increase again. paired with block and other emergency mitigation methods (dodge+burst heal, lefthanders, strafe jumping etc.) this was sufficient to avoid death reliably. In organised groups, sustain is a non-issue anyway.

So while a normal way of increasing mitigation had a plethora of drawbacks (slotting heavy armour/defensive sets = missing out on a lot of crit and damage), undeath's drawbacks were basically countered by the very thing it enabled: going some pieces medium/light, slotting more offensive sets (which usually come in those weights).


You lowered the entry stage to 1 now and made it a 10% scaling passive which - while being a good tackle of the "overall too much mitigation" problem - also lowers the "counter incentives" a lot. In the end, vampire stage 1 is still a no brainer for 10% unnamed damage mitigation. It is not totally broken anymore (as of total mitigation provided) but still "free" and overpowered damage mitigation.

Simplified Example:
When I need mitigation e.g. as a medium build, I could for example slot a heavy cuirass instead of my full medium setup. I'd "increase" skill cost by missing one medium. I'd gain about 1k resisances which is like 1.5% mitigation.
On the other hand, I could go vamp stage 1, get up to 10% mitigation and have basically the same penalties.
That's unbalanced. And up to 10% damage mitigation in execute range is still a lot in PvP as it is damage mitigation where it matters, is unnamed, activates passively and can be stacked with the other percentual damage mitigation while having no direct counter.

My suggestion for a rework of undeath would be as follows, I tried to make it fit the theme of an elusive creature of the night popping in and out of the shadows, being fast and agile.

UNDEATH
While you are at vampire stage 3 or higher
Reduces your damage taken and increases your movement speed by up to 10% based on your missing health.
When you continuously sprint for 3/6 seconds, you gain Minor Protection for 2/4 seconds which increases by 1 second for every 20/10% of max health you are missing.
When you enter Sneak, Invisibility or use a teleport ability, you gain Minor Vitality for 1 second for every 20/10% of max health you are missing.

This would make undeath still a strong passive but a strong passive for breaking LoS/resetting the fight, not for tanking it out in light/medium.
It would make an injured vampire faster and thus able to break from the fight while giving him the means to heal up again supported by his own kit and build a bridge towards stage 4 with Unnatural Movement which would now build upon the feats of Dark Stalker, Strike from the Shadows and Undeath - especially providing Minor Protecton and Minor Vitality when managing to escape a tight situation by sprinting into invisibility.

It would also making vampire gameplay meaningful instead of just handing out free mitigation.

And it would be fun to use stuff like mist, sprint, sneak and invisibility to get out of sticky situations and give further incentive to actually play actively as a vamp instead of being annoyed to be forced to make every char a vamp.

Thank you very much for reading!

master_vanargand

I think it's an interesting idea, but it's too complicated.
It should be simpler. For example, put Undeath back to vampire stage 3.
That's it. A simple nerf. No reward.

Berenhir

master_vanargand wrote: »

I think it's an interesting idea, but it's too complicated.
It should be simpler. For example, put Undeath back to vampire stage 3.
That's it. A simple nerf. No reward.

Then nobody outside of RP groups would play vamp. There needs to be an incentive to build around the downsides of vampirism which imho should be by unlocking a certain amount of gameplay opportunities.

While my suggestions are of course up to debate, you need to somehow make vampirism fun. It's a game and every investment with your build should feel rewarding and awesome. Going without health regen, with high skill costs and high fire damage taken needs to give you something unique and fun as a reward.

Vampire stage 3 undeath at 10% damage mitigation is just not a viable option. There are far better mitigation options - pariah/swift/ayleid king - and the rest of the buffs for themselves are not worth the downsides.

So you somehow need to make vampire fit with a cool and desired play style - which is evasion and mobility.

Urzigurumash

Proud Tanklet here, Heavy Armor needs a buff. As you indicate, probably wasn't just the nerf to HP Regen that tipped the scales for so many: the last big changes to Armor went a bit too far to nerf Heavy / buff Medium.

I've been in favor of buffing the base armor of Heavy AND the Pen or Crit Chance on Light, but a second look at the Damage Taken penalties on Light and Heavy might be a more prudent idea.

I agree with your post altogether and your suggestion is quite good, but I'm inclined to favor solutions with the least disturbance to the ecosystem / presumably easiest coding.

master_vanargand

Berenhir wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I think it's an interesting idea, but it's too complicated.
It should be simpler. For example, put Undeath back to vampire stage 3.
That's it. A simple nerf. No reward.

Then nobody outside of RP groups would play vamp. There needs to be an incentive to build around the downsides of vampirism which imho should be by unlocking a certain amount of gameplay opportunities.

While my suggestions are of course up to debate, you need to somehow make vampirism fun. It's a game and every investment with your build should feel rewarding and awesome. Going without health regen, with high skill costs and high fire damage taken needs to give you something unique and fun as a reward.

Vampire stage 3 undeath at 10% damage mitigation is just not a viable option. There are far better mitigation options - pariah/swift/ayleid king - and the rest of the buffs for themselves are not worth the downsides.

So you somehow need to make vampire fit with a cool and desired play style - which is evasion and mobility.

Vampires are "Kiss and Curse".
You can't just get the benefits.
In fact, there are people who use vampires stage 4.
Everyone will no longer be the vampire.
But maybe a little of the population will be vampires stage 3.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How about put the skill back at stage 3.

Then remove the increased ability cost weakness.

ToRelax

Berenhir wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

I think it's an interesting idea, but it's too complicated.
It should be simpler. For example, put Undeath back to vampire stage 3.
That's it. A simple nerf. No reward.

Then nobody outside of RP groups would play vamp. There needs to be an incentive to build around the downsides of vampirism which imho should be by unlocking a certain amount of gameplay opportunities.

While my suggestions are of course up to debate, you need to somehow make vampirism fun. It's a game and every investment with your build should feel rewarding and awesome. Going without health regen, with high skill costs and high fire damage taken needs to give you something unique and fun as a reward.

Vampire stage 3 undeath at 10% damage mitigation is just not a viable option. There are far better mitigation options - pariah/swift/ayleid king - and the rest of the buffs for themselves are not worth the downsides.

So you somehow need to make vampire fit with a cool and desired play style - which is evasion and mobility.

What's the point of some players being vampires - especially outside rp - without ever slotting vampire skills? Some of them are being used, but they, not the passives, need to be the draw that gets players to become vampires in the first place. Otherwise everyone will be, and we're back at square one.

DrNukenstein

What if they just made it 3 stages

got rid of the annoying enough to never use stage 4

and moved unnatural movement to stage 3

Stamicka

Up to 30% mitigation was way too strong, I’m glad they changed it. Their current solution is a little better. Getting hit harder by dawnbreaker and a very small cost increase is definitely a small price to pay for up to 10% mitigation.

I think the best solution is to only have the mitigation be active at very low amounts of health, so you would only get the full 10% mitigation at 30% health or something and 0% mitigation otherwise.

The fact that vampire isn’t very good outside of this passive is a separate problem. I know that nerfing this passive even further would mean that almost no one would be vampire, but that just means that vampire itself needs another rework if they want people to use it.

Urzigurumash

Stamicka wrote: »

Up to 30% mitigation was way too strong, I’m glad they changed it. Their current solution is a little better. Getting hit harder by dawnbreaker and a very small cost increase is definitely a small price to pay for up to 10% mitigation.

I think the best solution is to only have the mitigation be active at very low amounts of health, so you would only get the full 10% mitigation at 30% health or something and 0% mitigation otherwise.

The fact that vampire isn’t very good outside of this passive is a separate problem. I know that nerfing this passive even further would mean that almost no one would be vampire, but that just means that vampire itself needs another rework if they want people to use it.

That's how it used to be. The idea is discussed thoroughly in this thread by React, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621381/pvp-balance-in-u37-in-depth-balance-suggestions

Where I postulated: "Undeath would again be a more specific and exclusive avenue to Tankiness, rather than just an additional layer of Tankiness thrown on top of all the other available avenues."

BUT, as that one vet Vampire MagDK who used to comment all the time would always chime in, the revision to Undeath was probably made to facilitate the use of Blood for Blood and Simmering Frenzy.

master_vanargand

Well, Magicka DK would be in trouble if Vampire disappeared.
On the live server in PvP, everyone was at Vampire stage 3, so Magicka DK had a +13% flame damage boost.
This was a huge damage boost and was ridiculous.

Urzigurumash

master_vanargand wrote: »

Well, Magicka DK would be in trouble if Vampire disappeared.
On the live server in PvP, everyone was at Vampire stage 3, so Magicka DK had a +13% flame damage boost.
This was a huge damage boost and was ridiculous.

Yes I made a poll about that very subject some time ago, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf

On Xbox NA the power and popularity of mDK has waned substantially - but a pre-hybridization style sDK remains essentially extinct in the wild, afaik. (Altho most Hybrid DKs run Noxious and Take Flight over the Flame options)

master_vanargand

Urzigurumash wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Well, Magicka DK would be in trouble if Vampire disappeared.
On the live server in PvP, everyone was at Vampire stage 3, so Magicka DK had a +13% flame damage boost.
This was a huge damage boost and was ridiculous.

Yes I made a poll about that very subject some time ago, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf

On Xbox NA the power and popularity of mDK has waned substantially - but a pre-hybridization style sDK remains essentially extinct in the wild, afaik. (Altho most Hybrid DKs run Noxious and Take Flight over the Flame options)

At least it's now fair on the PTS.
DK is also a great DoT pressure build in PvP.
This is a nightmare for classes without purge and is where DK excels.

Urzigurumash

master_vanargand wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Well, Magicka DK would be in trouble if Vampire disappeared.
On the live server in PvP, everyone was at Vampire stage 3, so Magicka DK had a +13% flame damage boost.
This was a huge damage boost and was ridiculous.

Yes I made a poll about that very subject some time ago, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf

On Xbox NA the power and popularity of mDK has waned substantially - but a pre-hybridization style sDK remains essentially extinct in the wild, afaik. (Altho most Hybrid DKs run Noxious and Take Flight over the Flame options)

At least it's now fair on the PTS.
DK is also a great DoT pressure build in PvP.
This is a nightmare for classes without purge and is where DK excels.

Right the class simply had too burst for being a pressure class. To that point about Flame Dmg being OP, from 2016 to 2021 sDK was mostly all about waiting for the last ticks of Venomous Claw. Breath->Claw->D Swing->Medium attack->Leap->Executioner, that's how I earned my 5 stars and the playstyle pretty much disappeared with Weapon Damage Whip.

That's why I ran Molten Armaments, I got hated on so hard for that but that little extra damage on the Medium was worth it to me.

But also the change to 2h's Follow Up meant Full Heavies no longer buffed Leap, so I wouldn't run Molten even if it hadn't been gutted. They should've just limited Molten to melee range heavies..